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People are serious overestimating the influence Activision has on Blizzard.
I have a feeling Kespa won't win this, but it will be a slow process because Gretech and Blizz does everything so slow. This is pretty much the last blow to BW. Blizzard has shown they don't want BW around anymore, since honestly, no BW & no extra money from Kespa will probably yield higher profits than signing a contract with them.
I am very sad to see Blizzard respond in this way, I understand they are a company and their letting alot of fans down, but realistically it will make them more money.
I guess it's just sad to see the value put on money, nothing is done to purely make people happy for no benefit, even what seems to be generousity has something behind it, but Blizzard felt more like one of those "generous" companies, obviously this was to be expected, just enjoy the OSL finals and move on with life :/
SC is losing a fanbase as it stands, lots of negative things happening in the scene, and I myself don't find this too bad, spending years on this site, I can now actually focus on studies and a social life  ... Nobody can deny that what SC achieved as a game is remarkable, and I stand proud being a part of that for years.
Ofcourse someone could sponsor a 10 million dollar SC1 tournament and it would attract thousands of new players in the west, but I can only dream...
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On September 07 2010 13:56 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:52 urashimakt wrote:
Intellectual property is no joke and BW progamers are in no way necessary for the success of SC2, so I would be afraid for the proleague. :-/ you're missing the point. yeah sure current bw S-class players would bring name value to the sc2 tourneys. however i have no doubt that there will be plenty of future sc2 players that will make a name for themselves. the bigger issue is that the association of some of korea's largest companies such as KT, SKT, STX, MBC, samsung, etc (lots of influence and $$) are turning against gretech/GSL. if you think that is a small obstacle for gretech to overcome you are very mistaken.
Can't all be turning against Gretech if, even after they agree to stand united against it, they still sell them air time. O_O
On September 07 2010 13:17 Milkis wrote:
They did get a Cable TV Channel (ETN) and an IPTV (QookTV) recently. Strangely this was announced AFTER the negotiations, and QookTV is owned by KT. So...
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Fuck yeah Kespa - you may be bastards but your OUR bastards, and I'd gladly rather deal with another 10 years of your bullshit than see professional BW die.
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On September 07 2010 14:07 deafhobbit wrote:
Fuck yeah Kespa - you may be bastards but your OUR bastards, and I'd gladly rather deal with another 10 years of your bullshit than see professional BW die.
I'd rather see the players get to choose the game they'd prefer to play, but if KeSPA losing completely wipes out the BW scene then I suppose that wouldn't be any better.
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On September 07 2010 13:57 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:54 TheMute wrote:
I will be so freakin' pumped if Kespa wins the lawsuit. Hopefully it doesn't come down to that, but I'm definitely on Proleague's side. What the hell am I gonna do at 2AM from now on? + Show Spoiler +fuck 2AM there isnt a song by them i like. 2PM is alright but again and again is like mediocre at best, i did wrong was meh (which is below mediocre). band names with a time is really what blizzard is corrupted, there must be a wow quest or sc2 achievement that'll purify it!
My favorite is
+ Show Spoiler +
original sucked, this cover pwns.
I'm all for SC2 and could care less about blizzard/gretech's greedy and questionable corruptness. But when you mess with Proleague, that's the last straw.
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On September 07 2010 13:57 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote:
This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off.
I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass.
That's my understanding of it anyway.
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i'm just waiting for the announcement of the court date
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I think Kespa might actually have a good argument if this goes to court. After all, they went in to talk about Proleague, and instead it turns into GSL issues. Gretech seriously has some nerve trying to shut Proleague off for that reason alone.
Doesn't anyone find it odd that Blizzard is basically reaching over the seas, into SK to basically try to strong arm the companies there to obey?
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5003 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:10 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:57 Milkis wrote:On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote:
This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass. That's my understanding of it anyway.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123275
Money was never the problem, but the conditions/rights being demanded.
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On September 07 2010 13:56 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:52 urashimakt wrote:
Intellectual property is no joke and BW progamers are in no way necessary for the success of SC2, so I would be afraid for the proleague. :-/ you're missing the point. yeah sure current bw S-class players would bring name value to the sc2 tourneys. however i have no doubt that there will be plenty of future sc2 players that will make a name for themselves. the bigger issue is that the association of some of korea's largest companies such as KT, SKT, STX, MBC, samsung, etc (lots of influence and $$) are turning against gretech/GSL. if you think that is a small obstacle for gretech to overcome you are very mistaken.
Exactly. What people don't seem to realize is that GSL is a huge step backward for eSports. It's just a tournament, and no matter how frequently it gets run it's not the same as having a dependable salary for being a player.
If SC2 wants to really take off, there needs to be sponsored TEAMS and not just leagues with big shiny cash prizes (which are dwarfed when you compare them the sums of the payrolls of the different BW proteams, regardless of how little the lesser A-team pros get paid). But if all the big Korean companies who previously showed interest in sponsoring eSports are allied against Blizzard, that means SC2 will either have to be sooooooo good and popular that other great companies who originally didn't like BW enough to get involved decide to for SC2, or accept crappier sponsors who sense blood and feel like they can get a team for less money than if they had to compete with the big boys. I highly doubt SC2 will be entertaining enough as a game so they'd better pray for their Boxer ASAP if they want this to happen.
I would go as far as to argue that the current proscene and the current insane skill levels of the top players would not have been possible without PL. If BW was still a "you have to be a top 36 player to make any money at all" game, there would have been a lot less top players and thus the evolution of the game would have been stunted. Just look at the raw skill of even an average A-team player today - it is immense. You don't get that good without housing and a salary where one slump means you can't eat nearly as well for two months.
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On September 07 2010 14:15 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 14:10 Tachion wrote:On September 07 2010 13:57 Milkis wrote:On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote:
This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass. That's my understanding of it anyway. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123275Money was never the problem, but the conditions/rights being demanded.
I never said money was the issue. The issue has always been property rights which Kespa have ignored for years.
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On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
That seems a bit naive and completely ignores the legal position. kespa is a not for profit organisation after all. It's also likely that Korean politicians would be on the side of existing Korean interests.
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I would go as far as to argue that the current proscene and the current insane skill levels of the top players would not have been possible without PL. If BW was still a "you have to be a top 36 player to make any money at all" game, there would have been a lot less top players and thus the evolution of the game would have been stunted.
This is soooo true, without the team environment, there would be a lot less opportunity for up and coming players to make it.
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From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
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5003 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:21 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 14:15 Milkis wrote:On September 07 2010 14:10 Tachion wrote:On September 07 2010 13:57 Milkis wrote:On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote:
This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass. That's my understanding of it anyway. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123275Money was never the problem, but the conditions/rights being demanded. I never said money was the issue. The issue has always been property rights which Kespa have ignored for years.
You directly implied money was the issue.
They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
"Something for nothing" implies that KeSPA wanted Blizzard to just give them the rights. This is strictly false.
You also mention "KeSPA has been ignoring property rights". That's bullshit. Blizzard knew about the proscene for ages, and even had players come over to Blizzcon. Do you really think this is that black and white? If it was that black and white it wouldn't even be an issue and we'd be over this already. Does a 7 year old industry just come out of nowhere without Blizzard knowing and Blizzard suddenly steps in? Secondly, you do realize KeSPA simply makes derivative works off of Blizzard's product? It's not like you magically have Starcraft and an eSports scene occurs.
Either give me a full argument, proving that you actually have a clue on what is going on in the entire ordeal, or just do us all a favor and just be quiet and stop spreading ill formed opinions.
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Seriously, this entire thing is one giant clusterfuck.
When Kespa pretty much killed GOM, I was really sad, and pissed at Kespa. I was even hoping that GOM would manage to make a comeback and still keep their tournament alive somehow. I was even slightly hopeful when Gretech was given the right to sort everything out. Kespa has screwed up a lot of shit over the years, but I don't deny that they're probably at least somewhat beneficial to ESPORTS in the long run. I hoped that they would work something out, and everyone would be happy; Blizzard would get some money from Kespa continuing to broadcast BW, and GOM would do their own thing with SC2. Instead, Gretech/Blizzard are being a bunch of dicks and trying to kill the only game I love.
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On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote:
From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Well why does Kespa have to give up their timeslot? They've had it for years and there's plenty of people who enjoy bw. Shouldn't the NEW game air at a different time and try to EARN that primetime slot by showing it could be more popular? I'd say gretech's at fault here.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote:
From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Newer does not mean better. It does not mean advancement of E-sports. Get that stigma out of your head.
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Man...
I gotta be honest, I'm not sure I have a horse in this race, (I'm more into SC2 then BW, but I did spend a few years watching the PL as well) but this has got to be one of the biggest things related to VGs that's happened.
If anything, just more proof that E-sports can be a big deal.
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EPT
