Let's stop posting speculative articles as sources, shall we? I guess it's kinda my fault for not going through them I guess, but there's a reason I ignored a lot of the news that came out recently.
Anyway, let's summarize what's been going on recently.
Hard Facts
- Negotiations Began on July 23rd. KeSPA and Gretech form an NDA on the 9th. - The parties involved are KOCCA (Korean Creative Contents Agency), representatives from SKT, KT, and Woongjin, and a representative from the KeSPA executive office. They are negotiating with Gretech. - 4 meetings total. The 4th meeting did not go well.
Each bullet point represents statements said by one personnel. Basically, this is all the info we have regarding negotiations. - On the 26th, the 4th negotiation meeting with KeSPA and Gretech took place. While the first three meetings went smoothly and there were hopes that the 4th meeting would finally end the problem, the opposite situation happened. GSL was the center of the problem, because starting with October, the schedules would conflict with the Proleague. GSL takes place from Monday to Friday, and Proleague goes from Saturday to Wednesday -- Monday and Tuesday's prime time slots became the main cause of the problem. - "Unlike the last three meetings, there were a lot of demands that was not understandable, but we tried to understand and just let it go. It looks like it was difficult to accept "demands" that didn't have clear guidelines or direction, saying that KeSPA should figure it out for themselves". "It's hard to look at the one sided and coercive demands as negotiations" [Someone well informed with KeSPA] - "While we did give an opinion in that pressing time, rather than asking for a specific amount, we asked for the smooth operation of both leagues" "From Gretech's perspective, they would need to be careful about everything, so rather than giving guidelines, they considered actualizing a proposal that will permit the greatest degree of freedom rather than suggesting a guideline." [Someone well informed with Gretech] - "While it could be rooted in the buried emotions they have against one another, I think Gretech was a bit hasty in this case. In order to have a smooth negotiations, the parties need to exchange opinions carefully. Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" - "In the past, there was a case where Gretech's Gom Classic was boycotted. I wonder if this was something done to minimize that kind of damages. It's likely a policy to have their Starcraft 2 league operate safely" - The two Fomos articles, representing more sides of the picture. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148991 - Negotiations supposedly ended with "If we understand correctly, Gretech's demands are saying that, because the 7 year old Proleague does not benefit the company, thus, Gretech wants to get rid of it", with Gretech's side responding "That is correct" - KT's representative that partook in the negotiations: "We once again confirmed that Gretech does not have any desire to negotiate as they deny the existence of Progame teams and the Proleague"
So, piecing it together, this is how I imagine the negotiations to have went.
- First three negotiations went okay. - In the fourth negotiation, KeSPA asks Gretech how much they want. Gretech, rather than answering with an amount, they say they want an "Harmonious operation of both leagues" - Gretech wants Proleague's prime time slots. KeSPA finds this ridiculous. - Gretech is then wondering how KeSPA will reimburse the GSL, since the Proleague will "compete" with it and damage it. KeSPA responds that they refuse to reimburse damages for the GSL. Gretech asks if it's not monetary, in what other way will KeSPA pay for damages. KeSPA says they're here to talk about the Proleague, not about GSL and Starcraft 2 - Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.
Responses
- KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens. - SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
I think it's a shame, I wish the BW players could play sc2 as they please, I can't wait to see Jaedong, Flash, and nal_ra when he finishes his army duty, play sc2.
If it goes to the courts it'll be an interesting battle to see, even though the fate of my beloved spectator sport is on the line. Kespa's side definitely has much better government relations since it was formed partially under the auspices of the cultural ministry, IIRC.
I'm definitely surprised to learn exactly how small Gretech is and how far they're going. And I guess CJ doesn't care enough about the whole situation to really strong-arm anything out of Gretech or OGN/Onmedia.
If that claimed Gretech employee's post here about "if you could see our balance sheet" and so on was authentic and accurate, they could really be at risk. Without television broadcasting of their tournament, the reach is still very limited. And the need to charge foreign viewers for the content (while allowing South Koreans to view for free) still shows that they can't monetize the foreign audience through sponsorship/advertising.
Oh, and thanks for helping dispel some of the misinformation around here, although I do expect plenty of people to keep spouting nonsense.
If that claimed Gretech employee's post here about "if you could see our balance sheet" and so on was authentic and accurate, they could really be at risk. Without television broadcasting of their tournament, the reach is still very limited. And the need to charge foreign viewers for the content (while allowing South Koreans to view for free) still shows that they can't monetize the foreign audience through sponsorship/advertising.
They did get a Cable TV Channel (ETN) and an IPTV (QookTV) recently. Strangely this was announced AFTER the negotiations, and QookTV is owned by KT. So...
On September 07 2010 13:13 tok wrote: I think it's a shame, I wish the BW players could play sc2 as they please, I can't wait to see Jaedong, Flash, and nal_ra when he finishes his army duty, play sc2.
Well if they wanted to play SC2, they could always leave their current teams. But Gretech's tournament structure is antagonistic towards team competition - their entire "philosophy" article favored individual competition over teams, so if Gretech's vision of "esports" prevails, the team/salary structure in place today for BW cannot survive and most players today cannot get the income or support they do now, as in a world with only individual competitions, only the people at the top can make a living through the game, and others must find an alternative way to support themselves.
If that claimed Gretech employee's post here about "if you could see our balance sheet" and so on was authentic and accurate, they could really be at risk. Without television broadcasting of their tournament, the reach is still very limited. And the need to charge foreign viewers for the content (while allowing South Koreans to view for free) still shows that they can't monetize the foreign audience through sponsorship/advertising.
They did get a Cable TV Channel (ETN) and an IPTV (QookTV) recently. Strangely this was announced AFTER the negotiations, and QookTV is owned by KT. So...
What the? That's very strange given the so-called "solidarity". Actually given the dominance of cell phone service ads (SKT/KT) during pro BW, I found SKT/KT's emphasis on fighting against Gretech's move to damage proleague as expected... Hmm...
This is all blizzards fault.. they're such idiots for giving exclusive rights to their content to GOM and gretech Thanks for the update man. I'm glad theyre boycotting sc2 events and blocking them from being broadcasted on OGN.
On September 07 2010 13:13 tok wrote: I think it's a shame, I wish the BW players could play sc2 as they please, I can't wait to see Jaedong, Flash, and nal_ra when he finishes his army duty, play sc2.
Well if they wanted to play SC2, they could always leave their current teams. But Gretech's tournament structure is antagonistic towards team competition - their entire "philosophy" article favored individual competition over teams, so if Gretech's vision of "esports" prevails, the team/salary structure in place today for BW cannot survive and most players today cannot get the income or support they do now, as in a world with only individual competitions, only the people at the top can make a living through the game, and others must find an alternative way to support themselves.
That would really suck. Some other players that haven't been performing as well as the others(FvJ anyone?) would be falling behind even though they had a huge fanbase
Well, after reading all of that, I think Gretech basically trying to strong arm Kespa and the BW Pro teams isn't going to work. This is Korea after all, even if Blizzard wins the lawsuit, in the end they lose a lot due to most top class pros not moving over to SC2. This is just a crap shoot, wtf does Gretech think about the teams? If they basically can't broadcast on TV, they will never gain that audience they seek. I'm sure most people whom watch BW would side with Kespa (regardless of there current actions.)
There is no way Kespa would allow Proleague to die, if this is the main argument of Gretech, Kespa won't budge and Blizzard would lose face from this mess, in there lame attempt to strong arm Kespa into removing Proleague.
On September 07 2010 13:23 funnybananaman wrote: This is all blizzards fault.. they're such idiots for giving exclusive rights to their content to GOM and gretech Thanks for the update man. I'm glad theyre boycotting sc2 events and blocking them from being broadcasted on OGN.
To be honest I think this is playing out the way Activision-Blizzard wanted - Acitivision-Blizzard wanted a Korean company to act as their proxy to help them fight against the current pro BW structure and industry players, and Gretech appears to be fighting precisely those targets. I don't think Gretech can win the coming court battle though, or the other battles that might take place soon.
if Blizzard truly is the company I have always thought they were, this is definitely the time they should step in and say something. it seems to me, that Gretech, and not Blizzard is mostly at fault for this mess.
Fuck yes. Fuck SC2 and fuck Gretech. Dirty greedy bastards with no respect, just dollar signs imprinted on their eyes. If progame teams boycott SC2 leagues then BW might just live on. Please God, swift justice!
On September 07 2010 13:48 Seraphic wrote: if Blizzard truly is the company I have always thought they were, this is definitely the time they should step in and say something. it seems to me, that Gretech, and not Blizzard is mostly at fault for this mess.
Blizzard is not Blizzard anymore, it's Activision-Blizzard and that's a whole new beast.
On September 07 2010 13:48 Seraphic wrote: if Blizzard truly is the company I have always thought they were, this is definitely the time they should step in and say something. it seems to me, that Gretech, and not Blizzard is mostly at fault for this mess.
Blizzard is not Blizzard anymore, it's Activision-Blizzard and that's a whole new beast.
haha that's true I'm saying in general terms of course.
On September 07 2010 13:48 Seraphic wrote: if Blizzard truly is the company I have always thought they were, this is definitely the time they should step in and say something. it seems to me, that Gretech, and not Blizzard is mostly at fault for this mess.
i hope you realize gretech is basically just carrying out blizzard's plans for ESPORTS0.2
I will be so freakin' pumped if Kespa wins the lawsuit. Hopefully it doesn't come down to that, but I'm definitely on Proleague's side. What the hell am I gonna do at 2AM from now on?
This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me. Don't forget that they cut GOM out of the picture in the same way they are getting cut out now. It's called Karma.
On September 07 2010 13:34 konadora wrote: fuck yeah KeSPA.
Kespa is no saint... but the lesser of two evils, that's all.
The way I see it, KeSPA kept this thing running and legitimized it by giving it a governing body and ensuring the support of the sponsors. They aren't exactly so bad. They fucked up at times, but kept it going through the years.
My new sig commenting on a core issue that Activision-Blizzard supporters don't really seem to consider.
"If Activision-Blizzard uses/allows Gretech to kill professional Brood War, how do we know Acitivision-Blizzard won't kill SC2 when they release a new RTS or whenever they feel like it? Especially since with no LAN, SC2's kill-switch is unstoppable."
On September 07 2010 13:52 urashimakt wrote: Intellectual property is no joke and BW progamers are in no way necessary for the success of SC2, so I would be afraid for the proleague. :-/
you're missing the point.
yeah sure current bw S-class players would bring name value to the sc2 tourneys. however i have no doubt that there will be plenty of future sc2 players that will make a name for themselves.
the bigger issue is that the association of some of korea's largest companies such as KT, SKT, STX, MBC, samsung, etc (lots of influence and $$) are turning against gretech/GSL. if you think that is a small obstacle for gretech to overcome you are very mistaken.
On September 07 2010 13:54 TheMute wrote: I will be so freakin' pumped if Kespa wins the lawsuit. Hopefully it doesn't come down to that, but I'm definitely on Proleague's side. What the hell am I gonna do at 2AM from now on?
fuck 2AM there isnt a song by them i like. 2PM is alright but again and again is like mediocre at best, i did wrong was meh (which is below mediocre). band names with a time is really what
blizzard is corrupted, there must be a wow quest or sc2 achievement that'll purify it!
On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
People are serious overestimating the influence Activision has on Blizzard.
I have a feeling Kespa won't win this, but it will be a slow process because Gretech and Blizz does everything so slow. This is pretty much the last blow to BW. Blizzard has shown they don't want BW around anymore, since honestly, no BW & no extra money from Kespa will probably yield higher profits than signing a contract with them.
I am very sad to see Blizzard respond in this way, I understand they are a company and their letting alot of fans down, but realistically it will make them more money.
I guess it's just sad to see the value put on money, nothing is done to purely make people happy for no benefit, even what seems to be generousity has something behind it, but Blizzard felt more like one of those "generous" companies, obviously this was to be expected, just enjoy the OSL finals and move on with life :/
SC is losing a fanbase as it stands, lots of negative things happening in the scene, and I myself don't find this too bad, spending years on this site, I can now actually focus on studies and a social life ... Nobody can deny that what SC achieved as a game is remarkable, and I stand proud being a part of that for years.
Ofcourse someone could sponsor a 10 million dollar SC1 tournament and it would attract thousands of new players in the west, but I can only dream...
On September 07 2010 13:52 urashimakt wrote: Intellectual property is no joke and BW progamers are in no way necessary for the success of SC2, so I would be afraid for the proleague. :-/
you're missing the point.
yeah sure current bw S-class players would bring name value to the sc2 tourneys. however i have no doubt that there will be plenty of future sc2 players that will make a name for themselves.
the bigger issue is that the association of some of korea's largest companies such as KT, SKT, STX, MBC, samsung, etc (lots of influence and $$) are turning against gretech/GSL. if you think that is a small obstacle for gretech to overcome you are very mistaken.
Can't all be turning against Gretech if, even after they agree to stand united against it, they still sell them air time. O_O
On September 07 2010 13:17 Milkis wrote: They did get a Cable TV Channel (ETN) and an IPTV (QookTV) recently. Strangely this was announced AFTER the negotiations, and QookTV is owned by KT. So...
Fuck yeah Kespa - you may be bastards but your OUR bastards, and I'd gladly rather deal with another 10 years of your bullshit than see professional BW die.
On September 07 2010 14:07 deafhobbit wrote: Fuck yeah Kespa - you may be bastards but your OUR bastards, and I'd gladly rather deal with another 10 years of your bullshit than see professional BW die.
I'd rather see the players get to choose the game they'd prefer to play, but if KeSPA losing completely wipes out the BW scene then I suppose that wouldn't be any better.
On September 07 2010 13:54 TheMute wrote: I will be so freakin' pumped if Kespa wins the lawsuit. Hopefully it doesn't come down to that, but I'm definitely on Proleague's side. What the hell am I gonna do at 2AM from now on?
fuck 2AM there isnt a song by them i like. 2PM is alright but again and again is like mediocre at best, i did wrong was meh (which is below mediocre). band names with a time is really what
blizzard is corrupted, there must be a wow quest or sc2 achievement that'll purify it!
I'm all for SC2 and could care less about blizzard/gretech's greedy and questionable corruptness. But when you mess with Proleague, that's the last straw.
On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass.
I think Kespa might actually have a good argument if this goes to court. After all, they went in to talk about Proleague, and instead it turns into GSL issues. Gretech seriously has some nerve trying to shut Proleague off for that reason alone.
Doesn't anyone find it odd that Blizzard is basically reaching over the seas, into SK to basically try to strong arm the companies there to obey?
On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass.
On September 07 2010 13:52 urashimakt wrote: Intellectual property is no joke and BW progamers are in no way necessary for the success of SC2, so I would be afraid for the proleague. :-/
you're missing the point.
yeah sure current bw S-class players would bring name value to the sc2 tourneys. however i have no doubt that there will be plenty of future sc2 players that will make a name for themselves.
the bigger issue is that the association of some of korea's largest companies such as KT, SKT, STX, MBC, samsung, etc (lots of influence and $$) are turning against gretech/GSL. if you think that is a small obstacle for gretech to overcome you are very mistaken.
Exactly. What people don't seem to realize is that GSL is a huge step backward for eSports. It's just a tournament, and no matter how frequently it gets run it's not the same as having a dependable salary for being a player.
If SC2 wants to really take off, there needs to be sponsored TEAMS and not just leagues with big shiny cash prizes (which are dwarfed when you compare them the sums of the payrolls of the different BW proteams, regardless of how little the lesser A-team pros get paid). But if all the big Korean companies who previously showed interest in sponsoring eSports are allied against Blizzard, that means SC2 will either have to be sooooooo good and popular that other great companies who originally didn't like BW enough to get involved decide to for SC2, or accept crappier sponsors who sense blood and feel like they can get a team for less money than if they had to compete with the big boys. I highly doubt SC2 will be entertaining enough as a game so they'd better pray for their Boxer ASAP if they want this to happen.
I would go as far as to argue that the current proscene and the current insane skill levels of the top players would not have been possible without PL. If BW was still a "you have to be a top 36 player to make any money at all" game, there would have been a lot less top players and thus the evolution of the game would have been stunted. Just look at the raw skill of even an average A-team player today - it is immense. You don't get that good without housing and a salary where one slump means you can't eat nearly as well for two months.
On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
That seems a bit naive and completely ignores the legal position. kespa is a not for profit organisation after all. It's also likely that Korean politicians would be on the side of existing Korean interests.
I would go as far as to argue that the current proscene and the current insane skill levels of the top players would not have been possible without PL. If BW was still a "you have to be a top 36 player to make any money at all" game, there would have been a lot less top players and thus the evolution of the game would have been stunted.
This is soooo true, without the team environment, there would be a lot less opportunity for up and coming players to make it.
From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass.
Money was never the problem, but the conditions/rights being demanded.
I never said money was the issue. The issue has always been property rights which Kespa have ignored for years.
You directly implied money was the issue.
They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
"Something for nothing" implies that KeSPA wanted Blizzard to just give them the rights. This is strictly false.
You also mention "KeSPA has been ignoring property rights". That's bullshit. Blizzard knew about the proscene for ages, and even had players come over to Blizzcon. Do you really think this is that black and white? If it was that black and white it wouldn't even be an issue and we'd be over this already. Does a 7 year old industry just come out of nowhere without Blizzard knowing and Blizzard suddenly steps in? Secondly, you do realize KeSPA simply makes derivative works off of Blizzard's product? It's not like you magically have Starcraft and an eSports scene occurs.
Either give me a full argument, proving that you actually have a clue on what is going on in the entire ordeal, or just do us all a favor and just be quiet and stop spreading ill formed opinions.
Seriously, this entire thing is one giant clusterfuck.
When Kespa pretty much killed GOM, I was really sad, and pissed at Kespa. I was even hoping that GOM would manage to make a comeback and still keep their tournament alive somehow. I was even slightly hopeful when Gretech was given the right to sort everything out. Kespa has screwed up a lot of shit over the years, but I don't deny that they're probably at least somewhat beneficial to ESPORTS in the long run. I hoped that they would work something out, and everyone would be happy; Blizzard would get some money from Kespa continuing to broadcast BW, and GOM would do their own thing with SC2. Instead, Gretech/Blizzard are being a bunch of dicks and trying to kill the only game I love.
On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote: From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Well why does Kespa have to give up their timeslot? They've had it for years and there's plenty of people who enjoy bw. Shouldn't the NEW game air at a different time and try to EARN that primetime slot by showing it could be more popular? I'd say gretech's at fault here.
On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote: From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Newer does not mean better. It does not mean advancement of E-sports. Get that stigma out of your head.
I gotta be honest, I'm not sure I have a horse in this race, (I'm more into SC2 then BW, but I did spend a few years watching the PL as well) but this has got to be one of the biggest things related to VGs that's happened.
If anything, just more proof that E-sports can be a big deal.
Basically here we have the devil we know (KeSPA), the devil we don't know (Gretech et al), and the devil we thought was an angel (Activision-Blizzard).
And they're all playing strong-arm/bluff tactics.
On IP grounds, A-B/Gretech have the legal standing. On the basis of actual practice (what you might think of as "common law" grounds), KeSPA holds all the cards.
From my POV, MBC, KeSPA, etc. are perfectly justified in considering Blizzard's demands re. BW to be ridiculous, too much, etc. since Blizzard's essentially ignored the proscene 1999-2007, and didn't push that hard even after 2007. (The argument: silence implies consent.)
If KeSPA/MBC/whoever was declaring rights to broadcast/manage SC2 leagues, that's completely different, since Blizzard's been very clear from the beginning that SC2 esports were going to be overseen by Blizz itself. But I don't think this is what KeSPA is saying.
after fully reading that article where Kespa explained there side of the story, I'm...extremely curious on if Blizzard/Gretech would ever try to explain themselves. The more silent they stay on this to the fans, the more it'll look like there the enemies on all of this. Or at least the more evil between the two.
On September 07 2010 14:34 So no fek wrote: Seriously, this entire thing is one giant clusterfuck.
When Kespa pretty much killed GOM, I was really sad, and pissed at Kespa. I was even hoping that GOM would manage to make a comeback and still keep their tournament alive somehow. I was even slightly hopeful when Gretech was given the right to sort everything out. Kespa has screwed up a lot of shit over the years, but I don't deny that they're probably at least somewhat beneficial to ESPORTS in the long run. I hoped that they would work something out, and everyone would be happy; Blizzard would get some money from Kespa continuing to broadcast BW, and GOM would do their own thing with SC2. Instead, Gretech/Blizzard are being a bunch of dicks and trying to kill the only game I love.
e-Sports wouldn't exist without KeSPA. Who would sponsor BW if there wasn't a governing body for it?
On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote: From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Well why does Kespa have to give up their timeslot? They've had it for years and there's plenty of people who enjoy bw. Shouldn't the NEW game air at a different time and try to EARN that primetime slot by showing it could be more popular? I'd say gretech's at fault here.
Because Gretch owns the rights to both BW + SC2. And Proleague on a different day is better than no proleague at all. Honestly I feel that Gretch are asking for a lot, but KESPA are just fucking stubborn and greedy too. They don't want to give up the prime slot because of advertising money. If they truly were doing it for the sake of e-sports and all that they would have backed down. In fact, what they should have done was to buy the rights from blizzard in the first place, and not let Gretch get them. Again they didn't do that because of greed and their hatred of blizzard, nothing to do with saving e-sports. Now it will go to court and he only people that will really benefit from all this will be the lawyers.
I cheer for whatever side will give us Proleague. There seems to be a lot of people anti-KeSPa or anti-Blizzard/Gretech for what they did in the past. Both companies seem really freakin greedy though, so I can't see it being a win-win situation =/.
I can't see Gretech's model of doing things being good for esports in the long run, I don't think it'll induce as many fans or reasons for companies to be sponsoring players.
Are the monday/tuesday slots really that prime? As in, are they actually prime or are they called prime because both companies want it?
The other thing is that I hope it doesn't get so ugly that people just stop caring for either entirely....
From the looks of it, it's KeSPA that's sealing ProLeague's fate into its grave because of their stubborn attitude. They need to just shut up and concede that they're fighting a losing battle and that they need swallow their pride and accept that the ProLeague isn't going to get the "Hero" role in E-Sports anymore.
At the same time, the negative aspects of "intellectual property rights" that are biting the consumer in the ass are showing up really badly here. I can accept a request for the old to make way for the new and the old to be pushed to a different time slot, but in the case where KeSPA wants to compete directly...to demand payment for "lost profits" on viewers who would watch classic Brood War instead is disgusting business practice. Instead of "demanding payment" Gretech needs to get off their lazy asses and make the tournament more exciting and have better quality that will attract more customers over from the Brood War side.
Blizzard has been extremely greedy since WoW became their flagship project, it's not because of activision.
Also blizzard is not some innocent party here, gretech is basically just their korean proxy, do you honestly think blizzard would have given gretech complete power over what to do with SC2 and BW in korea? No, gretech is just executing what blizzard wishes them to.
I'm still baffled how some people can think blizzard is some innocent company in all this and that gretech is just warping all the sc licensing rights on their own.
On September 07 2010 13:05 Milkis wrote: - KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
On September 07 2010 13:05 Milkis wrote: - KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
I'm glad to read that.
Yeah me too, hope it works out well for them and that Gretech and Blizzard find themselves royally fucked. Maybe if that happens, Blizzard will come back to the table to discuss bringing sc2 to korea under favorable terms and not to try to muscle out the current structure.
How can people complain that the companies are only interested in the money? Everything on the pro-scene is about money, hence where the term pro-gamer comes from. A professional gamer is someone who plays games for a living, and by living it means money. That means the players need to earn enough money to focus solely on the game, to get that money they need sponsors, sponsors need viewers, to get viewers you need infrastructure and marketing, for that you need employees and equipment, etc etc Of course these companies are after money because firstly that is what a business is about and secondly it is simply required to bring the games to your computer screen.
Also, how long can KeSPA hold onto their teams if they have no broadcasting rights and get sued for broadcasting illegally? When some of the higher profile players contracts expire, are they going to resign or make the jump to SC2? Either way, if we do lose some of the stars of BW to SC2, it will be sad but ultimately new stars will be born.
Saying all that, having players have to fight over huge top tier prizes and much smaller lower tier ones will definitely not help SC2 as an e-sport moving forward. But also, can anyone blame Gretech's hostility towards KeSPA after they've screwed them over in the past?
If KeSpa vs Gretech really goes to court then KeSpa will win easily.
Business deals and court decisions are done a little differently in Korea. It's all about who you know and how much of a "fun night" you can give them. Back room negotiations and room salon parties will be the deciding factor for the court decision, and I think teams linked with the mega-corps in Korea are going to have more connections then one company such as GreTech. I wouldn't be surprised if Gretech doesn't even try to take it to court, knowing they have no chance.
On September 07 2010 15:39 kiryah wrote: If KeSpa vs Gretech really goes to court then KeSpa will win easily.
Business deals and court decisions are done a little differently in Korea. It's all about who you know and how much of a "fun night" you can give them. Back room negotiations and room salon parties will be the deciding factor for the court decision, and I think teams linked with the mega-corps in Korea are going to have more connections then one company such as GreTech. I wouldn't be surprised if Gretech doesn't even try to take it to court, knowing they have no chance.
With your country displaying Italy and no sources or examples given, are you able to back any of this up?
can someone correct me on what the fuck blizzard has anything to do with this current situation? its just kespa's control of the bw scene vs goms.
its like the blind leaving the fucking blind in all the threads and disinfomation is spread virally. ppl saying blizzard are init for the $$$ fuck kotick etc should just be banned cos they obv cant be bothered keeping up with the topic. if anyone can prove beyond reasonable doubt that blizzard, and in particular activision are actively participating in these negotiations then i will shut my mouth but its fucking obvious that its gom making the decisions on how to negotiate with kespa and uses blizzard as a supporting leg to argue their case on. do you really think activision is bothered abt potential money when they could be screwing their current game developers out of bonus money or pumping official sequels from studios unrelated to the original game?
the negotiations got to the stage where gom doesnt give a flying shit abt monetary reimbursement provided they can get their program onto OGN or MBC at a primetime slot and not the 12am shift they had been offered previously.
PL, despite being a league that players and viewers dont really care abt. (no, some bs from postmatch interviews will not dissuade me, its your job to support ur team and sponsor and say absolutely nothing fruitful in an interview) is really the backbone of modern bw in how the teams can sell to sponsors A TEAM instead of A PLAYER. This lets proteams get away with large benches but it also gives room for the old dogs of the team with only 1 trick or are past their prime. That is pretty rare in a competitive environment and its one of the only positives that kespa brings to the scene. stability.
GSL, being the new shiny thing needs to make a sound to be heard. its not gonna be heard if its put on at 10am or midnight. anyone can see this is a huge sign of disrespect to gsl and gom by the established scene. Considering gsl is also the current flagship of the sc2 scene it also is under huge pressure to succeed.
so gom mean it when they say proleague has no value to them if it is the perceived thing blocking them from primetime. (which its not, if its not pl im sure it will run into something else) the refusal to negotiate around pl resulted in a deadlock. i am not convinced that proleague deserves the big spotlight all the time and neither am i convinced gsl is at the standard where it would be received well in the spotlight.
imo they should just strike a compromise with kesp and give them pl, but in exchange secure the ro16 onwards of GSL on somewhere close to primetime. if they fucking sync it properly gsl will only take priority over pl a few days a month.however if ogn do it they will be jealous of the other company, mbc who dont need to, and it just adds another layer of complexity. and becomes even more complex if the channels want to do their own sc2 leagues.
On September 07 2010 15:51 T0fuuu wrote: can someone correct me on what the fuck blizzard has anything to do with this current situation? its just kespa's control of the bw scene vs goms.
its like the blind leaving the fucking blind in all the threads and disinfomation is spread virally. ppl saying blizzard are init for the $$$ fuck kotick etc should just be banned cos they obv cant be bothered keeping up with the topic. if anyone can prove beyond reasonable doubt that blizzard, and in particular activision are actively participating in these negotiations then i will shut my mouth but its fucking obvious that its gom making the decisions on how to negotiate with kespa and uses blizzard as a supporting leg to argue their case on. do you really think activision is bothered abt potential money when they could be screwing their current game developers out of bonus money or pumping official sequels from studios unrelated to the original game?
the negotiations got to the stage where gom doesnt give a flying shit abt monetary reimbursement provided they can get their program onto OGN or MBC at a primetime slot and not the 12am shift they had been offered previously.
PL, despite being a league that players and viewers dont really care abt. (no, some bs from postmatch interviews will not dissuade me, its your job to support ur team and sponsor and say absolutely nothing fruitful in an interview) is really the backbone of modern bw in how the teams can sell to sponsors A TEAM instead of A PLAYER. This lets proteams get away with large benches but it also gives room for the old dogs of the team with only 1 trick or are past their prime. That is pretty rare in a competitive environment and its one of the only positives that kespa brings to the scene. stability.
GSL, being the new shiny thing needs to make a sound to be heard. its not gonna be heard if its put on at 10am or midnight. anyone can see this is a huge sign of disrespect to gsl and gom by the established scene. Considering gsl is also the current flagship of the sc2 scene it also is under huge pressure to succeed.
so gom mean it when they say proleague has no value to them if it is the perceived thing blocking them from primetime. (which its not, if its not pl im sure it will run into something else) the refusal to negotiate around pl resulted in a deadlock. i am not convinced that proleague deserves the big spotlight all the time and neither am i convinced gsl is at the standard where it would be received well in the spotlight.
imo they should just strike a compromise with kesp and give them pl, but in exchange secure the ro16 onwards of GSL on somewhere close to primetime. if they fucking sync it properly gsl will only take priority over pl a few days a month.however if ogn do it they will be jealous of the other company, mbc who dont need to, and it just adds another layer of complexity. and becomes even more complex if the channels want to do their own sc2 leagues.
You sir, are a fuckign moron. thats all i have to say.
actually i had alot more but fucking i quoted and it fucked me over. basicly the gist of what i was just pure rage on how someone can possible think OGN AND MBC should push their primetime slots so SC2 wouldn't have competition over viewship. that statement is just so fuckign rediculous. I am gonna rage sleep tonight.
Imagine that some kind of billionaire decides to kill competitive tennis by introducing "tennis for fat people" the game is like normal tennis but with bigger, slower balls and only could be played by people who are 250+lbs. Billionaire is rich and sponsors tournaments with 5x prizes of grand slams and other tournaments. He also buys tv networks and make them not broadcast "old" tennis. The players have no choice but to switch to new game and become fat because it's where the money is. Viewers as much as they hate the situation has to watch tennis for fat people because there is no regular high level tennis anymore as all the money are in new game.
This is exactly what Blizzard tries to force over us. When the smoke is cleared and Blizzard stops pouring money into sc2 tourneys we will be left with dead scene and dead old game which was so great to watch and had so many fans. This is not how free market works and this is not how you promote new stuff. I honestly hope more communities will join this "antiblizzard" thing KeSPA and pro teams forms. People should see that current EULA and Blizzard policy makes it impossible for this game to be esport success. Go to hell blizzard and don't ruin my favourite entertainment.
I respect that Blizzard should get some sort of compensation for their game, although the increase in sales from it being on TV I would think would be enough. However, it seems obvious to me that eSports will never really thrive if a game company can claim Intellectual Property rights without limitation. This means that any game company will be able to just not sell the broadcasting rights whenever they feel like it. Like for instance if they had a sequel to the game coming out and wanted people to switch to the new game by killing the old. I'm not saying that this is exactly the motivation behind what Activision/Blizzard is doing here, but it very well could be. I like both SC:BW and SC2 but to be fair, SC:BW is an established eSport and if SC2 has potential to become an eSport as well, then it should be able to do so on it's own and not by forcing the best TV time slots. KeSPA might have done some pretty lame things in the past, but they really need to win the coming lawsuit for the good of all eSports.
On September 07 2010 16:23 sAAvior wrote: Imagine that some kind of billionaire decides to kill competitive tennis by introducing "tennis for fat people" the game is like normal tennis but with bigger, slower balls and only could be played by people who are 250+lbs. Billionaire is rich and sponsors tournaments with 5x prizes of grand slams and other tournaments. He also buys tv networks and make them not broadcast "old" tennis. The players have no choice but to switch to new game and become fat because it's where the money is. Viewers as much as they hate the situation has to watch tennis for fat people because there is no regular high level tennis anymore as all the money are in new game.
This is exactly what Blizzard tries to force over us. When the smoke is cleared and Blizzard stops pouring money into sc2 tourneys we will be left with dead scene and dead old game which was so great to watch and had so many fans. This is not how free market works and this is not how you promote new stuff. I honestly hope more communities will join this "antiblizzard" thing KeSPA and pro teams forms. People should see that current EULA and Blizzard policy makes it impossible for this game to be esport success. Go to hell blizzard and don't ruin my favourite entertainment.
Yes, change is a very scary thing. I can see here you're trying to sling anything you can to let us know how much you dislike SC2, but if there's one thing you shouldn't try to fault Blizzard on it is making a good game.
The players don't need to put on 250 pounds and slow down, they need to learn the new terms of engagement to the degree that only 10 years of practice can bring.
On September 07 2010 16:29 Novac wrote: I respect that Blizzard should get some sort of compensation for their game, although the increase in sales from it being on TV I would think would be enough. However, it seems obvious to me that eSports will never really thrive if a game company can claim Intellectual Property rights without limitation. This means that any game company will be able to just not sell the broadcasting rights whenever they feel like it. Like for instance if they had a sequel to the game coming out and wanted people to switch to the new game by killing the old. I'm not saying that this is exactly the motivation behind what Activision/Blizzard is doing here, but it very well could be. I like both SC:BW and SC2 but to be fair, SC:BW is an established eSports and if SC2 has potential to become an eSport as well, then it should be able to do so on it's own and not by forcing the best TV time slots. KeSPA might have done some pretty lame things in the past, but they really need to win the coming lawsuit for the good of all eSports.
We're talking about the company that takes 10 years to release sequels, I don't think we need to worry about them pushing product faster than we can take it.
I think i am starting to really hate StarCraft II with this bully eSports force-feeding that is going on down. It is obvious that Blizzard is bluffing because if they aren't... well... douchebag crown of the universe is theirs for the taking.
P.S. Nice response from KeSPA and the Proteams. With such an attitude, we can all forget seeing current great SC:BW progamers in SCII because they will identify the game as "the enemy" of their current existential situation.
P.P.S. Blizzard, use your brains - not your economics/marketing team.
[...] PL, despite being a league that players and viewers dont really care abt. [...]
I cant believe someone wrote this.. You, sir, are either insane, or blatantly lying to yourself, or were born with an intelligence that make earthworms look like Einsteins in comparison. Thousands of fans came to watch Proleague finals live, hundreds of thousands of them watch them through TV or Livestream. Players practiced for MONTHS for it, giving it priority over both MSL n OSL.. And here you are saying that players and viewers dont care about it.. I am hoping that you can provide a single shed of proof in the form of anyone (outside of insane ones like yourself) saying that they do not care of Proleague.
GSL, being the new shiny thing needs to make a sound to be heard. its not gonna be heard if its put on at 10am or midnight. anyone can see this is a huge sign of disrespect to gsl and gom by the established scene. Considering gsl is also the current flagship of the sc2 scene it also is under huge pressure to succeed.
I think you got it wrong.. GSL in fact can broadcast during prime time.. They just know that they dont stand a fighting chance as their ball-vs-ball-after-20-minute gameplay cant even begin to compare to Brood War in all of its glory. Thats why they are trying to kill off competition through this underhanded means rather than competing openly. As a viewer, i would have thought that you would prefer the freedom to choose, rather than being forced to watch SC2 just cos there is no PL to be watched.
Lastly, i would like to mention the fact that GOM said they would like to do away with the current team format for e-Sports, and keep it to a everyman-for-himself tournament format. Other than some SC2 fans who are blinded by their shiny new toys, any other blind guy and his grandma can see that this is reverting e-Sport back to its infantile stage. Face it, even for top players, if one slump means no food and no shelter for the coming months (until you unslump), nobody is willing to devote all their time n effort to make a living out of this. And for lesser players who would nvr reach the top (read A-team standard but not S-class), theres no hope to make a living at all.. And if nobody makes a living out of it, its not a "sport".
Kespa dont give a rat ass about sc2. Progamers dont give a rat ass about sc2. I dont give a rat ass about sc2 (i play sc2, and i still dont give a rat ass about it, its not as illogical as you think). gretech and blizzard can do w.e the fuck they want on their own tv network with sc2. nobody gives a rat ass. But to even suggest compromising broodwar on kespa's own tv networks just so sc2 can thrive can kiss my ass. And kiss my ass too to people who supports this idea or think this isn't ridiculous. I dont care who owns what or who's whose bitch this is just how i feel about this whole situation.
On September 07 2010 16:35 ffreakk wrote: I think you got it wrong.. GSL in fact can broadcast during prime time.. They just know that they dont stand a fighting chance as their ball-vs-ball-after-20-minute gameplay cant even begin to compare to Brood War in all of its glory. Thats why they are trying to kill off competition through this underhanded means rather than competing openly. As a viewer, i would have thought that you would prefer the freedom to choose, rather than being forced to watch SC2 just cos there is no PL to be watched.
Brood War's main appeal is definitely the fan base formed around the players. It's not hard to find someone to claim that Brood War is just flat out a better game, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one of them for every two in the bush watching high level SC2.
On September 07 2010 16:39 DatTheMighty wrote: Progamers dont give a rat ass about sc2.
You might want to explain that to JulyZerg and Nada, they didn't get the memo.
On September 07 2010 16:33 Usurper wrote: P.S. Nice response from KeSPA and the Proteams. With such an attitude, we can all forget seeing current great SC:BW progamers in SCII because they will identify the game as "the enemy" of their current existential situation.
We should remember here that the people supporting this unified boycott are businessmen, the players are just the victims no matter which side you're watching from. There are plenty of players who would like to be able to play SC2, not to mention switch to it if it didn't jeopardize their livelihood.
It's not the fans or actually the game. ITS THE PLAYERS. KESPA HOLDS the players SO THEY hold my heart and my allegiance. Broodwar or Sc2 is pretty fuckign boring after watching like hundreds of games and actually playing. All sports are like this. And i dont give a fuck about other fans to be honest and i doubt other fans Give a fuck about me. I care about the players! And if other fans aren't fucking retards like some posters they care about the player much more than the games itself. I heard nada was playing sc2 i tune in right away, after the match was over i tuned off. Hell i'll even watch backho play sc2. I dont give a rat ass about idra to be honest or any other sc2 pros not because they aren't talented or w.e but i haven't connected with them like i do with KOREAN PROGAMERS. They can switch over to broodwar ( or should i say back) and i still wouldnt watch. Bottom line is ITS THE PLAYERS Not the game. KOREAN PROGAMERS 4 LIFE.
On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass.
Brood War's main appeal is definitely the fan base formed around the players. It's not hard to find someone to claim that Brood War is just flat out a better game, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one of them for every two in the bush watching high level SC2.
I believe i have read many people claiming "i watch SC2 because im a new player and needed to learn the strategy, but i watch SC:BW because its just awesome to watch from a spectator PoV". So yes, even among SC2 viewers, there are in fact many that believe SC:BW is a better game.
There are plenty of players who would like to be able to play SC2
Until you can quote someone saying that they want to switch to pro-SC2, i ll have to treat it as a baseless claim that u cook up. And no, NADA were allowed to train for SC2 for 10 days before the show match.. So up until Blizz/Gretech elevate the situation to this level, players werent "strictly forbidden" to play SC2 in their spare time/holidays.
Regarding your response to sAAvior's post, i believe you are mistaking his point. What he is trying to say, is not whether changes are good, or bad, but whether companies should be allowed to force those changes on us viewers. If the new sport is better, it WILL get viewers, and more of them as time to come, since it is just better. You are arguing that GSL should be shown in the prime time slot since you are an SC2 fan, but you can always watch it im the Prime slot anyway, nobody stops you, and if there are many like you SC2 can grow. But forcing everyone else to follow suit even if they dont like it?
I would like to recycle my analogy in another post of mine:
If Blizz now make World of Starcraft and saying " We need all the current WoW servers for our new WoS, so WoW is no more.. So basically fk you and ur lvl 80 characters, and your hard-earned gears (accumulated after many months, even years), and honors, and achievements, and everything".. Will people still be saying these things like "the old must make space for the new", "its Blizzard's intellectual property, so they have rights"? I wonder..
On September 07 2010 16:29 Novac wrote: I respect that Blizzard should get some sort of compensation for their game, although the increase in sales from it being on TV I would think would be enough. However, it seems obvious to me that eSports will never really thrive if a game company can claim Intellectual Property rights without limitation. This means that any game company will be able to just not sell the broadcasting rights whenever they feel like it. Like for instance if they had a sequel to the game coming out and wanted people to switch to the new game by killing the old. I'm not saying that this is exactly the motivation behind what Activision/Blizzard is doing here, but it very well could be. I like both SC:BW and SC2 but to be fair, SC:BW is an established eSports and if SC2 has potential to become an eSport as well, then it should be able to do so on it's own and not by forcing the best TV time slots. KeSPA might have done some pretty lame things in the past, but they really need to win the coming lawsuit for the good of all eSports.
We're talking about the company that takes 10 years to release sequels, I don't think we need to worry about them pushing product faster than we can take it.
That is exactly what is happening. The eSports community surrounding SC:BW is clearly not dead but Activision/Blizzard is already very well engaged in "pushing product faster than we can take it". When talking eSports, SC:BW and SC2 are two very different things. It's like comparing soccer and handball. No one should be able to decide how their game is used. If they wanted full control over it, they should not have sold it to consumers. Instead of claiming IP rights, Activision/Blizzard should just have asked for compensation for continued support and patching of the game. If this was not about it being considered an eSport but rather someone had found a way to use the game to achieve world peace, then I bet you wouldn't want Activision/Blizzard to be able to pull the plug whenever they felt like it, simply because they wasn't happy with money they received for the 10 million copies they sold.
Yes, change is a very scary thing. I can see here you're trying to sling anything you can to let us know how much you dislike SC2, but if there's one thing you shouldn't try to fault Blizzard on it is making a good game.
The players don't need to put on 250 pounds and slow down, they need to learn the new terms of engagement to the degree that only 10 years of practice can bring.
I am not afraid of new at all. I want normal free market competition though. In normal world it works like this: I promote my product, you promote yours and consumers decide which wins. If you try to promote your product by killing mine without asking consumers about their opinion it's not healthy situation.
On September 07 2010 16:29 Novac wrote: I respect that Blizzard should get some sort of compensation for their game, although the increase in sales from it being on TV I would think would be enough. However, it seems obvious to me that eSports will never really thrive if a game company can claim Intellectual Property rights without limitation. This means that any game company will be able to just not sell the broadcasting rights whenever they feel like it. Like for instance if they had a sequel to the game coming out and wanted people to switch to the new game by killing the old. I'm not saying that this is exactly the motivation behind what Activision/Blizzard is doing here, but it very well could be. I like both SC:BW and SC2 but to be fair, SC:BW is an established eSports and if SC2 has potential to become an eSport as well, then it should be able to do so on it's own and not by forcing the best TV time slots. KeSPA might have done some pretty lame things in the past, but they really need to win the coming lawsuit for the good of all eSports.
We're talking about the company that takes 10 years to release sequels, I don't think we need to worry about them pushing product faster than we can take it.
That is exactly what is happening. The eSports community surrounding SC:BW is clearly not dead but Activision/Blizzard is already very well engaged in "pushing product faster than we can take it". When talking eSports, SC:BW and SC2 are two very different things. It's like comparing soccer and handball. No one should be able to decide how their game is used. If they wanted full control over it, they should not have sold it to consumers. Instead of claiming IP rights, Activision/Blizzard should just have asked for compensation for continued support and patching of the game. If this was not about it being considered an eSport but rather someone had found a way to use the game to achieve world peace, then I bet you wouldn't want Activision/Blizzard to be able to pull the plug whenever they felt like it, simply because they wasn't happy with money they received for the 10 million copies they sold.
Yes, it would be awful if that were how Blizzard works. Yes, it's scary to think that a company could try to shut down something we like. That's not what I commented on, though. I only said that Blizzard has never operated like that and there's no reason to think they would in the future. I did not try to refute anything else.
Yes, change is a very scary thing. I can see here you're trying to sling anything you can to let us know how much you dislike SC2, but if there's one thing you shouldn't try to fault Blizzard on it is making a good game.
The players don't need to put on 250 pounds and slow down, they need to learn the new terms of engagement to the degree that only 10 years of practice can bring.
I am not afraid of new at all. I want normal free market competition though. In normal world it works like this: I promote my product, you promote yours and consumers decide which wins. If you try to promote your product by killing mine without asking consumers about their opinion it's not healthy situation.
Well, yes. Most people in the U.S. like that market. I think the point of contention there would be whether or not "you" (not really you) can sell footage of someone else's product and then get angry when the person who paid for that right tells "you" to stop. It's not really "your" product, it's someone else's.
Yeah, I am kind of getting sick of this shit. I honestly won't buy HotS if this keeps up. I don't care enough about sc2 to begin with but I would of done it just for the story mode. However at this rate I am just going to pirate the campaign at some point then just ignore the game entirely.
Brood War's main appeal is definitely the fan base formed around the players. It's not hard to find someone to claim that Brood War is just flat out a better game, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one of them for every two in the bush watching high level SC2.
I believe i have read many people claiming "i watch SC2 because im a new player and needed to learn the strategy, but i watch SC:BW because its just awesome to watch from a spectator PoV". So yes, even among SC2 viewers, there are in fact many that believe SC:BW is a better game.
There are plenty of players who would like to be able to play SC2
Until you can quote someone saying that they want to switch to pro-SC2, i ll have to treat it as a baseless claim that u cook up. And no, NADA were allowed to train for SC2 for 10 days before the show match.. So up until Blizz/Gretech elevate the situation to this level, players werent "strictly forbidden" to play SC2 in their spare time/holidays.
Regarding your response to sAAvior's post, i believe you are mistaking his point. What he is trying to say, is not whether changes are good, or bad, but whether companies should be allowed to force those changes on us viewers. If the new sport is better, it WILL get viewers, and more of them as time to come, since it is just better. You are arguing that GSL should be shown in the prime time slot since you are an SC2 fan, but you can always watch it im the Prime slot anyway, nobody stops you, and if there are many like you SC2 can grow. But forcing everyone else to follow suit even if they dont like it?
I would like to recycle my analogy in another post of mine:
If Blizz now make World of Starcraft and saying " We need all the current WoW servers for our new WoS, so WoW is no more.. So basically fk you and ur lvl 80 characters, and your hard-earned gears (accumulated after many months, even years), and honors, and achievements, and everything".. Will people still be saying these things like "the old must make space for the new", "its Blizzard's intellectual property, so they have rights"? I wonder..
I don't know how to respond to this. Basically, you start off responding to me saying "there are people who claim BW is better, and there are people who don't" by saying "many people who play SC2 feel BW is better". I was momentarily startled as though by an echo.
Then you continue by framing me as an SC2 fan boy even though I thoroughly enjoy watching both games and proceed to put words in my mouth that never fit to begin with. I didn't say Nada prefers SC2, I said he has played it and apparently enjoyed it by his words with TLO following their showmatch. JulyZerg is a very prominent convert that you just glossed over because I guess that's what you did with most of what I said.
I never "argued" that GSL should be in the prime time slot. I never wanted to force everyone else to follow suit.
I see that you then finished off with an analogy that is completely out of place. Where exactly did you want to converse here? I'm really at a loss.
To clarify: While it's very possible that players are blocked from playing SC2 now, I don't know where you got that they were blocked from playing previously. Seeing as how some of them already were playing SC2 in their spare time and Nada was requested to practice for the showmatch, not allowed.
You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
This is really sad for Sc2 actually. Not so much about BW. Sc2 failed launch in Korea is very bad too..
It could've been so huge. Blizzard shouldve given the game to OGN and MBC for free and within a matter of days, the whole country would've been sucked back in PC rooms playing the game with the same furious attitude they had when Starcraft was first released.
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
Blizzard decided it could take the rights to broadcast BW away from the people who broadcast BW, and give it to a company of noobs (Gretech) who don't want BW to be broadcast at all.
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
Blizzard decided it could take the rights to broadcast BW away from the people who broadcast BW, and give it to a company of noobs (Gretech) who don't want BW to be broadcast at all.
Yes, Blizzard fucked it up.
The post I replied to was insinuating Blizzard was intentionally trying to kill BW, but your view on this parallel subject is appreciated.
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
you couldn't disprove that they arent either. in my eyes once they sold the rights to gretech, blizzard and gretech are on the same side. If everything went smoothly and broodwar survived i woulda been silent and content but i would be praising gretech AND BLIZZARD for showing leniency towards broodwar and esports. but its pretty fucking naive to think people who love esports wont hate blizzard for what is happening to broodwar right now between gretech and kespa. YOU REAP WHAT U SOW. Doesn't matter if the knife is in gretech's hand, blizzard fucking gave it to gretech wrapped in ribbons.
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
you couldn't disapprove that they arent either. in my eyes once they sold the rights to gretech, blizzard and gretech are on the same side. If everything went smoothly and broodwar survived i woulda been silent and content but i would be praising gretech AND BLIZZARD for showing leniency towards broodwar and esports. but its pretty fucking naive to think people who love esports wont hate blizzard for what is happening to broodwar right now between gretech and kespa. YOU REAP WHAT U SOW. Doesn't matter if the knife is in gretech's hand, blizzard fucking gave it to gretech wrapped in ribbons.
I hate to quote philosophy textbooks, but "burden of proof" and all that mess. Man I'm so good at quoting.
On September 07 2010 17:46 stambe wrote: When did Blizzard and Activision sided together? I didn't know blizzard have a partnership with some other company.
"On July 9, 2008, Activision officially merged with Vivendi Games, culminating in the inclusion of the Blizzard brand name in the title of the resulting holding company, though Blizzard Entertainment remains a separate entity with independent management."
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
you couldn't disapprove that they arent either. in my eyes once they sold the rights to gretech, blizzard and gretech are on the same side. If everything went smoothly and broodwar survived i woulda been silent and content but i would be praising gretech AND BLIZZARD for showing leniency towards broodwar and esports. but its pretty fucking naive to think people who love esports wont hate blizzard for what is happening to broodwar right now between gretech and kespa. YOU REAP WHAT U SOW. Doesn't matter if the knife is in gretech's hand, blizzard fucking gave it to gretech wrapped in ribbons.
I hate to quote philosophy textbooks, but "burden of proof" and all that mess. Man I'm so good at quoting.
I don't know why people are defending Kespa. Seriously, they are the ones who are monopolistic and unionist trying to make sure to boycott GSL and other sc2 events. Here's a different example.
You write a book and you sell a lot of copies of it, but that's where it ends, but you find the book is really popular in some foreign country and they make a tv show out of it. Now you signed a contract with some person in the country a long time ago, but now you realize you have a huge fanbase there. Ok so now you write a sequal to the book and you tell the people in that country that you have a publisher who is responsible for publishing any derivatives of your work in that country. So what happens, the people on the TV show decide to boycott it because they want to keep the TV show alive. The author likes the TV show, but wants to make a new show based on the new book. She says "ok, you can have the tv show if you give me money and let me have the prime slots", the other group says "no, and we will stop your new show from being broadcasted or allowing any of our actors from participating in your show".
See it from this perspective? Blizzard owns the IP. They have a moral right to the game and its derivatives. Sure Kespa spent a lot of money on pro-gaming, but it's not like they didn't make any profit, they did. And now sc2 is a big threat to the monopoly kespa has on programing in korea. When companies are threatened they react awkwardly. The answer is though that kespa loses. They should have negotiated rights from gretech 7 years ago and made the deal permanent or at least have better communication. There is no reason that both leagues can't continue right now except that kespa refuses to acknowledge blizzard's IP. Like I said in a different thread, 3 things have to happen for PL to not die. 1. GSL gets all mon-fri primetime spots. leaving other leagues for sat/sun or latenights. 2. Kespa has to give gretech -> blizzard a significant portion of its revenue. Probably 20-30% or more. 3. Kespa has to agree to not force teams to not participate in sc2 tournaments and kespa has to not allow teams which pressure their players into not playing sc2.
Yes, kespa will not be same after the end of this season, but that's how things are. kespa can either get on board or be left behind.
On September 07 2010 17:56 _awake_ wrote: i'd boycott the book if the author wanted to burn the original book
blizzard is the one that needs to hop on or be left behind
haha blizzard doesn't gain anything from destroying the pro-league, but they do lose potential players and fans. I'm sure they are weighing this decision to see if it's worth it to deal with kespa or not. Blizzard i'm sure really appreciates the scbw pro leagues, but they are angry that kespa thinks they own scbw in korea.
Again! Gretech's the one taking actions that are harming pro-league, whether that's their intent or they solely wish to protect GSL and it's an unfortunate byproduct. Blizzard hasn't been shown to have done anything besides possibly make a mistake in a business partner.
On September 07 2010 17:56 _awake_ wrote: i'd boycott the book if the author wanted to burn the original book
blizzard is the one that needs to hop on or be left behind
haha blizzard doesn't gain anything from destroying the pro-league, but they do lose potential players and fans. I'm sure they are weighing this decision to see if it's worth it to deal with kespa or not. Blizzard i'm sure really appreciates the scbw pro leagues, but they are angry that kespa thinks they own scbw in korea. If I write a book and you make it popular I still own the book.
I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
sc2 is in no way or shape a threat to esports/broodwar w.e u wanna call it. broodwar and esports are seperate. broodwar is just a game. esports is more than broodwar. If every progamer switched to sc2 we wouldn't even be raging so hard over nothing to be honest. Its the threat of blizzard and their ridiculous demands of control over esports that revolves around their game that is threatening to esports. To conform to blizzards standard for "esports" would be the death of esports itself. their model sucks they have no fuckign idea about esports. they're a game maker tryign to control their content which i understandable from their standpoint and perspective. But i am going to side with kespa because i am an ESports fan.
p.s. ur shitty mlg sc2 shit aint esports plz dont bring shit up about esports succeeding in the west
Really, arent both sides just acting absolutely understandable from their own point of views?
Blizzard/Gretech doesnt get much from the BW scene currently. Either they want to keep the BW scene going and profit from it, and unless thats possible, they rather dont have any BW scene at all since it will probably make the SC2 scene grow larger when theres no competing BW scene around. So this is how they are maximizing their profit. And after all they're a business company, the LIVE off profit. The more profit the better. Can you really blame them for what they're doing?
And Kespa is in the same boat, though it might be more of a fight for survival over a fight for profit. But they dont get anything from SC2. They want to keep BW as big and popular for as long as possible, thats how they get the most profit. So they're stopping their players from participating in SC2 and trying to keep their league going even with lawsuit threats. Can you really blame them for what they're doing?
Somehow I think settling it in court might be the best thing really. Both parties are acting in the way they benefit most from it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa have some kind of greater goal to please the community, they both want as much benefit as possible and they're acting accordingly. And taking it to court would finally determine who is right and who is wrong.
On September 07 2010 15:39 kiryah wrote: If KeSpa vs Gretech really goes to court then KeSpa will win easily.
Business deals and court decisions are done a little differently in Korea. It's all about who you know and how much of a "fun night" you can give them. Back room negotiations and room salon parties will be the deciding factor for the court decision, and I think teams linked with the mega-corps in Korea are going to have more connections then one company such as GreTech. I wouldn't be surprised if Gretech doesn't even try to take it to court, knowing they have no chance.
With your country displaying Italy and no sources or examples given, are you able to back any of this up?
I think it's obvious he knows something about Korean and Asian culture, people are very corrupt in countries like Korea and China. I've spent a few years here in China and the 'law' is not something follow here. When you look at Korea there is also a VERY long list of Koreans being corrupt to the point of no return, President being tossed in jail, Seoul olympics and starcraft match-fixing scandal. A funny thing is their ex-president is still held a hero by many, despite being what in a country as mine would be described as a corrupt thug.
On September 07 2010 17:58 Seraphic wrote: I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue Dat, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
Remember this is a business decision. I'm sure they are weighing the possible options.
Maybe 1. No PL, GSL only will produce X dollars profit. 2. contract for 20% revenue, produces Y dollars profit 3. Just let them be, produces Z dollars profit.
obviously #3 is out of the question since it doesn't profit gretech in any way. so it's between 1 and 2. Does blizzard think that they can win the battle of the wills and get progamers to jump on board with sc2 and fans as well, or do they think that they need to let the PL run for a few more seasons and if so, how much should they let it run.
^ KeSPA is a non profit organisation. Any money they make is further invested into eSports. I stand on KeSPA's side because if it sinks then it's very likely ProLeague will follow and i don't want that.
After all the KeSPA board members are mainly reps from the sponsors on ProTeams. KeSPA has also contributed to legitimising Progaming as a some what stable career by establishing a system of teams which provide their players with salarys and such.
Naysayers should find out about how tough it was for even the Emperor Boxer in the dark pre-salary days when aspiring progamers had to live together in cramped apartments and scrung up money for equipment all the while living off cup ramen.
On September 07 2010 17:58 Seraphic wrote: I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
We can assume anything we like! Nothing wrong with that.
On September 07 2010 17:59 DatTheMighty wrote: sc2 is in no way or shape a threat to esports/broodwar w.e u wanna call it. broodwar and esports are seperate. broodwar is just a game. esports is more than broodwar. If every progamer switched to sc2 we wouldn't even be raging so hard over nothing to be honest. Its the threat of blizzard and their ridiculous demands of control over esports that revolves around their game that is threatening to esports. To conform to blizzards standard for "esports" would be the death of esports itself. their model sucks they have no fuckign idea about esports. they're a game maker tryign to control their content which i understandable from their standpoint and perspective. But i am going to side with kespa because i am an ESports fan.
p.s. ur shitty mlg sc2 shit aint esports plz dont bring shit up about esports succeeding in the west
I'm not sure who you're arguing with because no one has said anything in support of Blizzard's failures or about MLG. You might just be bored I guess.
pretty sure blizzard already made their decision when they sold the rights to gretech
1. blizzard wants maximum profit 2. maximum profit when SC2 takes over OGN/MBC channels during primetime 3. use their IP to try to force OGN/MBC to bend to their will 4. sold rights to gretech to act as their proxy
On September 07 2010 17:58 Seraphic wrote: I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
We can assume anything we like! Nothing wrong with that.
On September 07 2010 17:59 DatTheMighty wrote: sc2 is in no way or shape a threat to esports/broodwar w.e u wanna call it. broodwar and esports are seperate. broodwar is just a game. esports is more than broodwar. If every progamer switched to sc2 we wouldn't even be raging so hard over nothing to be honest. Its the threat of blizzard and their ridiculous demands of control over esports that revolves around their game that is threatening to esports. To conform to blizzards standard for "esports" would be the death of esports itself. their model sucks they have no fuckign idea about esports. they're a game maker tryign to control their content which i understandable from their standpoint and perspective. But i am going to side with kespa because i am an ESports fan.
p.s. ur shitty mlg sc2 shit aint esports plz dont bring shit up about esports succeeding in the west
I'm not sure who you're arguing with because no one has said anything in support of Blizzard's failures or about MLG. You might just be bored I guess.
obviously i am not arguing against you so u dont need to be such a whiny defensive lil bitch. i am just telling all the people who thinks esports is shit like MLG which is like fucking mostly geared toward gaming nerds.
On September 07 2010 18:07 _awake_ wrote: pretty sure blizzard already made their decision when they sold the rights to gretech
1. blizzard wants maximum profit 2. maximum profit when SC2 takes over OGN/MBC channels during primetime 3. use their IP to try to force OGN/MBC to bend to their will 4. sold rights to gretech to act as their proxy
Profits are pretty much the business motivator, that's true. Bad press is pretty detrimental to it, though, most companies try to avoid making asses of themselves unless it really pays huge dividends.
On September 07 2010 17:58 Seraphic wrote: I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
We can assume anything we like! Nothing wrong with that.
On September 07 2010 17:59 DatTheMighty wrote: sc2 is in no way or shape a threat to esports/broodwar w.e u wanna call it. broodwar and esports are seperate. broodwar is just a game. esports is more than broodwar. If every progamer switched to sc2 we wouldn't even be raging so hard over nothing to be honest. Its the threat of blizzard and their ridiculous demands of control over esports that revolves around their game that is threatening to esports. To conform to blizzards standard for "esports" would be the death of esports itself. their model sucks they have no fuckign idea about esports. they're a game maker tryign to control their content which i understandable from their standpoint and perspective. But i am going to side with kespa because i am an ESports fan.
p.s. ur shitty mlg sc2 shit aint esports plz dont bring shit up about esports succeeding in the west
I'm not sure who you're arguing with because no one has said anything in support of Blizzard's failures or about MLG. You might just be bored I guess.
obviously i am not arguing against you so u dont need to be such a whiny defensive lil bitch. i am just telling all the people who thinks esports is shit like MLG which is like fucking mostly geared toward gaming nerds.
I was pretty certain you weren't, I'm just confused why you're on TL.net if your goal is to go into random threads and post irrelevant knee-jerk reactions that weren't prompted until an admin stumbles onto your trail.
On September 07 2010 18:07 _awake_ wrote: pretty sure blizzard already made their decision when they sold the rights to gretech
1. blizzard wants maximum profit 2. maximum profit when SC2 takes over OGN/MBC channels during primetime 3. use their IP to try to force OGN/MBC to bend to their will 4. sold rights to gretech to act as their proxy
Lol i wonder if blizzard can buy those channels. I bet they are pretty cheap.
On September 07 2010 17:58 Seraphic wrote: I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue Dat, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
Remember this is a business decision. I'm sure they are weighing the possible options.
Maybe 1. No PL, GSL only will produce X dollars profit. 2. contract for 20% revenue, produces Y dollars profit 3. Just let them be, produces Z dollars profit.
obviously #3 is out of the question since it doesn't profit gretech in any way. so it's between 1 and 2. Does blizzard think that they can win the battle of the wills and get progamers to jump on board with sc2 and fans as well, or do they think that they need to let the PL run for a few more seasons and if so, how much should they let it run.
I understand it's a business decision, I think that's probably part of the issue too. If Blizzard wasn't so entranced by wanting to make a buck from BW, I don't think there demands for Kespa would have been so harsh. While I realize Kespa has some blame to bare on all of this, as they didn't make it easier, Blizzard/Gretech is more at fault now. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, as I have always seen both Gretech/Blizzard and Kespa all to bare blame on this.
I really do want to hear Blizzard's side of the story, I can really careless of Gretech, as they are generally blockheads for trying to strong arm Kespa into giving up. if you can convince so many big companies and sponsors to simply give in and lose that much then someone needs to give them a gold medal.
On September 07 2010 17:58 Seraphic wrote: I think I should probably try to point out that if Blizzard is truly not part of this whole Gretech and Kespa/Proteams issue Dat, then why haven't Blizzard try to just settle this issue by simply stepping in?
You can assume because they haven't basically said a single word that, they are agreeing with Gretech on this issue, or at least support them. Simply, if they aren't, and Blizzard is letting this completely fall apart, then they are outright negligent and stupid for not doing, OR saying anything at this point.
I'm still damn curious on what Blizzard themselves think of all of this, they stay silent much longer, we can all just assume that they are basically supporting Gretech and what they want to do with BW, which is basically push the game aside outright.
Remember this is a business decision. I'm sure they are weighing the possible options.
Maybe 1. No PL, GSL only will produce X dollars profit. 2. contract for 20% revenue, produces Y dollars profit 3. Just let them be, produces Z dollars profit.
obviously #3 is out of the question since it doesn't profit gretech in any way. so it's between 1 and 2. Does blizzard think that they can win the battle of the wills and get progamers to jump on board with sc2 and fans as well, or do they think that they need to let the PL run for a few more seasons and if so, how much should they let it run.
I understand it's a business decision, I think that's probably part of the issue too. If Blizzard wasn't so entranced by wanting to make a buck from BW, I don't think there demands for Kespa would have been so harsh. While I realize Kespa has some blame to bare on all of this, as they didn't make it easier, Blizzard/Gretech is more at fault now. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, as I have always seen both Gretech/Blizzard and Kespa all to bare blame on this.
I really do want to hear Blizzard's side of the story, I can really careless of Gretech, as they are generally blockheads for trying to strong arm Kespa into giving up. if you can convince so many big companies and sponsors to simply give in and lose that much then someone needs to give them a gold medal.
Part of me thinks it's payback for forcing progamers not to play in past gom tournaments or in gsl.
On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
you couldn't disapprove that they arent either. in my eyes once they sold the rights to gretech, blizzard and gretech are on the same side. If everything went smoothly and broodwar survived i woulda been silent and content but i would be praising gretech AND BLIZZARD for showing leniency towards broodwar and esports. but its pretty fucking naive to think people who love esports wont hate blizzard for what is happening to broodwar right now between gretech and kespa. YOU REAP WHAT U SOW. Doesn't matter if the knife is in gretech's hand, blizzard fucking gave it to gretech wrapped in ribbons.
I hate to quote philosophy textbooks, but "burden of proof" and all that mess. Man I'm so good at quoting.
prolly gonna get ban for this
YOURE A FUCKING MORON TOO
Dude, there is absolutely no need to flame, best to keep things in a nice tone. I think the mods made this topic, in order to lessen the flaming and arguing.
I don't think blizzard is trying to make a buck out of a 12 year old game. they are trying to protect their game because it has their logo on it. they dont want it associated with an organization like kespa which has a bad track record to be honest, without having control over what kespa can and cant do. People assocate things, they see kespa ass fucking their players in the ass with broodwar in the background and they think blizzard is in the action too, therefore a dirty company too. blizzard makes alot of fucking money regardless esports die or live, but its image has a far wider reaching effects. Not only in korea but all over the world because esports does have coverage in the west on news channels from time to time. And i doubt the evil boss at activision really gives a fuck about esports monetary wise. its like a fucking drop of water in the ocean compares to what activision makes. fucking 1.6 billion in sales dollar just from cod:mw2 and with part 3 coming activision is rich no matter what. But they more prestige u are the more u care about ur image. its like a small red stain on ur fuckign expensive white suit. it stix out like a sore thumb.
- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.
This is how Blizzard tries to promote eSports in Korea. Destroying the Korean eSports. Awesome strategy.
- KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
KeSPA are ballers. Since it's composed of representative from the biggest korean companies, a lawsuit would be probably heavily biased in their favor :D Unless it's not a korean court, but it should be.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Where can I send my donations to this association ?
It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.
This is how Blizzard tries to promote eSports in Korea. Destroying the Korean eSports. Awesome strategy.
- KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
KeSPA are ballers. Since it's composed of representative from the biggest korean companies, a lawsuit would be probably heavily biased in their favor :D Unless it's not a korean court, but it should be.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Where can I send my donations to this association ?
It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
I'm 100% certain blizzard will win any IP battle in korea. Korea has to abide by IP laws it agreed to. Also the networks aren't stupid. They don't want to be liable in a lawsuit. I enjoy the pro-league, but Kespa is really insane if they believe they can continue without gretech's blessing.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
Well, maybe the root that it grew from but I don't think branches like Halo and WoW care what we think. :-P
lmao gtfo of our tree
Thank you. I didn't know how to reply to him, you handled it perfectly.
I didn't mean to offend you, I've enjoyed Starcraft for way longer than any of the more recent games. But siding with the ban happy troll? That's a little vindictive.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
Well, maybe the root that it grew from but I don't think branches like Halo and WoW care what we think. :-P
lmao gtfo of our tree
Thank you. I didn't know how to reply to him, you handled it perfectly.
I didn't mean to offend you, I've enjoyed Starcraft for way longer than any of the more recent games. But siding with the ban happy troll? That's a little vindictive.
no hes not siding with me, hes just siding with the statement, ur mentioning wow and halo in this forum and on this website in this argument is an obvious troll, anything u said and will say had just loss its credibility. double gtfo!
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
Well, maybe the root that it grew from but I don't think branches like Halo and WoW care what we think. :-P
lmao gtfo of our tree
Thank you. I didn't know how to reply to him, you handled it perfectly.
I didn't mean to offend you, I've enjoyed Starcraft for way longer than any of the more recent games. But siding with the ban happy troll? That's a little vindictive.
no hes not siding with me, hes just siding with the statement, ur mentioning wow and halo in this forum and on this website in this argument is an obvious troll, anything u said and will say had just loss its credibility. double gtfo!
I'm done helping you derail the thread. I'm ashamed for having gone this far.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: Thanks Milkis for summarizing the situation.
- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.
This is how Blizzard tries to promote eSports in Korea. Destroying the Korean eSports. Awesome strategy.
- KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
KeSPA are ballers. Since it's composed of representative from the biggest korean companies, a lawsuit would be probably heavily biased in their favor :D Unless it's not a korean court, but it should be.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Where can I send my donations to this association ?
It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
I'm 100% certain blizzard will win any IP battle in korea. Korea has to abide by IP laws it agreed to. Also the networks aren't stupid. They don't want to be liable in a lawsuit. I enjoy the pro-league, but Kespa is really insane if they believe they can continue without gretech's blessing.
I think that if Blizzard was 100% sure to win a lawsuit, and after they started complaining about IP rights in 2007, they would have already sued KeSPA for a long time, probably after the first failed negociation. But they didn't. If the whole story was taking place in the US, it would have sued them instantly. Just look at Activision's lawsuits record. It's incredible.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
Well, maybe the root that it grew from but I don't think branches like Halo and WoW care what we think. :-P
lmao gtfo of our tree
Thank you. I didn't know how to reply to him, you handled it perfectly.
I didn't mean to offend you, I've enjoyed Starcraft for way longer than any of the more recent games. But siding with the ban happy troll? That's a little vindictive.
First, what the hell are Halo and WoW doing on this topic. It was totally unrelevant. We are talking serious business about endangered Proleague and you ... Second, my sentence was a reference to the match fixing scandal 'After Talk'. Many people on TL know what I am refering to. I you don't, you should have a look to the korean TV show I mentioned above. TL subs team made a great job, profit.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: Thanks Milkis for summarizing the situation.
- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.
This is how Blizzard tries to promote eSports in Korea. Destroying the Korean eSports. Awesome strategy.
- KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
KeSPA are ballers. Since it's composed of representative from the biggest korean companies, a lawsuit would be probably heavily biased in their favor :D Unless it's not a korean court, but it should be.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Where can I send my donations to this association ?
It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
I'm 100% certain blizzard will win any IP battle in korea. Korea has to abide by IP laws it agreed to. Also the networks aren't stupid. They don't want to be liable in a lawsuit. I enjoy the pro-league, but Kespa is really insane if they believe they can continue without gretech's blessing.
I think that if Blizzard was 100% sure to win a lawsuit, and after they started complaining about IP rights in 2007, they would have already sued KeSPA for a long time, probably after the first failed negociation. But they didn't. If the whole story was taking place in the US, it would have sued them instantly. Just look at Activision's lawsuits record. It's incredible.
Yes, but Activision's lawsuit record is in the States mainly. I think we need to keep in mind that this is in Korea. While B-A (or Gretech) has a stronger stance in general if they take it to court, Kespa has the backing of the sponsors. If Blizzard/Gretech continues to alienate the sponsors any futher, just think, would they even WANT to bother sponsoring SC2 when Blizzard/Gretech simply strong armed them and SC:BW away?
I sure as hell won't. Why would I want to support that?
What I mean by this is Proleague is what the sponsors want, and where the main problem comes from. Blizzard/Gretech winning in the courts wouldn't mean they would automatically get the sponsors from BW to switch over to SC2. (Although the possibility of it would obviously depend on the sponsors themselves.) And of course, if they (Korea) lets Blizzard basically BOSS them around from across the seas, you are already giving way too much control to Blizzard. Gretech might be the one's talking, doing the problems, but Blizzard has said nil in regards to all of the issues besides them wanting absolute control of everything.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
Well, maybe the root that it grew from but I don't think branches like Halo and WoW care what we think. :-P
Excuse my ignorance but please enlighten me as to what Halo and WoW have to do with e-Sports.. As far as i know, those were mere games, e-Sport on the other hand is a completely different concept.
Edit: I would like to also mention that it is nearly impossible to argue that Blizzard does not know of all these negotiations going on. And if they know and said nothing, i dont see it as any different from Blizzard directly do all these.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: Thanks Milkis for summarizing the situation.
- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.
This is how Blizzard tries to promote eSports in Korea. Destroying the Korean eSports. Awesome strategy.
- KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
KeSPA are ballers. Since it's composed of representative from the biggest korean companies, a lawsuit would be probably heavily biased in their favor :D Unless it's not a korean court, but it should be.
- SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Where can I send my donations to this association ?
It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
I'm 100% certain blizzard will win any IP battle in korea. Korea has to abide by IP laws it agreed to. Also the networks aren't stupid. They don't want to be liable in a lawsuit. I enjoy the pro-league, but Kespa is really insane if they believe they can continue without gretech's blessing.
I think that if Blizzard was 100% sure to win a lawsuit, and after they started complaining about IP rights in 2007, they would have already sued KeSPA for a long time, probably after the first failed negociation. But they didn't. If the whole story was taking place in the US, it would have sued them instantly. Just look at Activision's lawsuits record. It's incredible.
Yes, but Activision's lawsuit record is in the States mainly. I think we need to keep in mind that this is in Korea. While B-A (or Gretech) has a stronger stance in general if they take it to court, Kespa has the backing of the sponsors. If Blizzard/Gretech continues to alienate the sponsors any futher, just think, would they even WANT to bother sponsoring SC2 when Blizzard/Gretech simply strong armed them and SC:BW away?
I sure as hell won't. Why would I want to support that?
That was almost exactly my point actually, we are in Korea, not in US. But it's not only about the sponsors. I think that millions of koreans will be pissed at Blizzard for destroying the current BW scene. It's all about the fans. As long as there will be BW fans, huge korean companies like STX, KT, SKT, Korean Air, CJ will keep sponsoring.
I've already said that earlier in the thread, but basically, Blizzard's strategy to promote eSports in Korea, is destroying the current eSports structure which was made by koreans with great effort. I don't think koreans are going to welcome Blizzard.
If the players line up with KeSPA, they can have a big impact on the fans. Imagine Boxer making a short public speach saying that what Blizzard is doing is unacceptable and destroying a part of the korean heritage....
edit : Just saw your edit. I understand better what you initially meant. I agree. hard to have debate with edits ^_^
Kespa loses in court so no more pro-league. In the beginning everyone is against the sc2-league (all pro-teams) but after a while (a few months) the pro's will have to choose between playing sc2 or doing something else. First a few will step over, after a while more and more. In the end they will have to choose between sc2 and what will be there other choice maybe wc3 I don't know.
In the end all the fans inclunding BW and Sc2 fans are the losers in this whole situation. And what are we doing? We argue against each othere here. You can go and thank gretech/blizzard for not just keeping status quo. Someone seriously thinks it would help Sc2 if Bw dies? Oh jesus, cmon ...
SC:BW is over ten years old. Is it that hard to code an open source SC:BW clone and get rid of ActiBlizzard completely? Didn't they do something similar in Korea with an FPS game?
On September 07 2010 19:27 Darth_Ihsahn wrote: SC:BW is over ten years old. Is it that hard to code an open source SC:BW clone and get rid of ActiBlizzard completely? Didn't they do something similar in Korea with an FPS game?
Yes. It's a lot easier to copy a FPS than a RTS. You need to copy the shitty path finding for the units, duplicate with a 100% accuracy every single unit behavior. And I assume that if you make such a perfect copy, you will be sued for plagiary, so it doesn't really solves the problem ^_^
If Blizzard/Gretech continues to alienate the sponsors any futher, just think, would they even WANT to bother sponsoring SC2 when Blizzard/Gretech simply strong armed them and SC:BW away?
Why would anybody want to organize a pro league in sc2 anyway as everything belong to Blizzard anyway. Why would anybody want to sponsor a pro team and training house for them if every single replay and every single game they play there belongs to Blizzard ? It's impossible for professional competition to form around a game in which you can't even organize friendly tournament among your friends with 10$ prize for 1st without permission from Blizzard. I hope one day gaming communities (and players with them) like teamliquid will be strong enough to just say no to every company who tries to sell their product with such EULA.
I'm sad. Sad, sad. Blizzard could just request the same amount of money for broadcasting of each game, and let the scene develop as they want. The better game, would bring more spectators and more money with that.
That would be fair. And make much money for them. Any particular reason, why the other option could bring them more money?
On September 07 2010 13:15 Zona wrote: If that claimed Gretech employee's post here about "if you could see our balance sheet" and so on was authentic and accurate, they could really be at risk. Without television broadcasting of their tournament, the reach is still very limited. And the need to charge foreign viewers for the content (while allowing South Koreans to view for free) still shows that they can't monetize the foreign audience through sponsorship/advertising.
It's called Hollywood Accounting. Basically both Kespa and GomTv are using this tactic. It will always show them operating at a loss.
Considering almost all of the "things said by people" part is from people who were from kespa directly or pro kespa, I'm not taking that summary seriously at all. Until Gretech comes out with an official stance (they won't, because they actually respect an NDA), everything is pure speculation.
Ive been looking for a summary like this for a long time. Thanks Milkis. Also is there anywhere that has a kinda beginers guid to how esports/proteams etc.. works in korea. There are about a thousand acronyms associated with this debacle and people might have trouble with all the mbc,gsl,gom,ogn,skt,kt etc...
Hey, can someone explain to me why people think Kespa is being selfish??? I haven't been reading this much...and this summarization helps, though it seems as though that Gretech is being purely selfish and evil (too strong of a word?) by taking away proleague.
On September 07 2010 20:33 Waxangel wrote: Considering almost all of the "things said by people" part is from people who were from kespa directly or pro kespa, I'm not taking that summary seriously at all. Until Gretech comes out with an official stance (they won't, because they actually respect an NDA), everything is pure speculation.
We don't know if the "things said by people" was 100% true.
Nor do we know Gretech didn't response because "they actually respect an NDA".
On September 07 2010 20:33 Waxangel wrote: Considering almost all of the "things said by people" part is from people who were from kespa directly or pro kespa, I'm not taking that summary seriously at all. Until Gretech comes out with an official stance (they won't, because they actually respect an NDA), everything is pure speculation.
You're talking about Gretech respecting the NDA as if it was a noble thing. It's not. They respect the NDA because it benefits them greatly, while it harms KeSPA, because the terms Blizzard/Gretech have given KeSPA are blatantly abusive.
When KeSPA first released the conditions Blizzard gave them during the negotiations Blizzard issued an official statement saying they're upset that KeSPA's broken the NDA. They NEVER denied anything. ;;
So again, Gretech/Blizzard do not want the negotiations to become public because that'd obviously cause them to lose the public support they have.
If it was really just about the money, I have a feeling KeSPA would have signed for rights years ago. This spat isn't anything new. To me this is a fight over control, who controls the e-sports scene. Now, how much control is really up in the air at this point, we know both KeSPA and Blizzard have giant egos. It's just as likely that Blizzard just wanted a guy on the KeSPA board or wanted to negotiate better player conditions, or that Blizzard really does want to micromanage every single aspect and leave KeSPA as nothing more than a liability puppet. We won't know until things goto court (and even then we may never know).
As much as I hate to say it, and now that it's basically come down to a legal fight, I want KeSPA to win. KeSPA's legal stance rests on the players owning the rights to their performances, vs Blizzard saying anything made or using Starcraft IP is thus owned by them as well. If Blizzard wins then a horrible precedent is set. Imagine if Bic owned the rights to anything you wrote with their pens, or Xerox owned the rights to anything they copy. How absurd is that? Yet Blizzard is arguing that's the case here.
As big of assholes KeSPA has been towards the players, there's far bigger chance of changing KeSPA's attitudes and player regulations over changing Blizzard's. If players walk and strike on KeSPA, they're hurting bad, they just lost their money maker and they'll be pressed hard to negotiate better terms. If players walk and strike on Blizzard, Blizzard just goes "pffft I already made boatloads off the game, see ya!" and ignores them.
This fight may end up being one of the most pivotal IP (and by extension, consumer) rights fights ever. Just wish our side didn't benefit KeSPA :\
A lot of people are talking about blizzards intellectual rights... what exactly are u talking about?
It's an open available product and as long as you buy it you can do the hell you like with it. broadcast make fun of praise or just play. As long as you don't modify it and sell it as your own. and get rid of Blizzard copyrights. Srsly. If to follow your logic any company can just sue any esports broadcast by saying HEY it's our product we didnt give you permission to stream it! Kespa is not saying BW is their game. or that They own the rights to that game. But they can do whatever the hell they like with that game leagues or no leagues. Imagine photoshop would charge for every photo u post because they didnt give you the permission to show whatever you've made with the product you legitimately bought and own.
I might be completely wrong about this. But please explain to me how does blizzard suddenly can say what OGN/MBC can or cant broadcast? They're making money because of the advertisement and popularity of the franchise you say? Well they made it popular and Blizzard should be thankful for that instead of unleashing dogs on the companies. I dont think that's Kespa nor OGN/MBC is trying to sell starcraft as their own they're selling Esports... and that's their creation not blizzards.
Because Gretch owns the rights to both BW + SC2. And Proleague on a different day is better than no proleague at all. Honestly I feel that Gretch are asking for a lot, but KESPA are just fucking stubborn and greedy too. They don't want to give up the prime slot because of advertising money. If they truly were doing it for the sake of e-sports and all that they would have backed down. In fact, what they should have done was to buy the rights from blizzard in the first place, and not let Gretch get them. Again they didn't do that because of greed and their hatred of blizzard, nothing to do with saving e-sports. Now it will go to court and he only people that will really benefit from all this will be the lawyers.
Both sides are at fault imo.
What is KeSPA greedy for? It is a non-profit organization. If he agrees to pay Gretech, then this money will come from sponsors and proteams. It is not what KeSPA wants, it has always been what skt1, kt and other proteams want.
[...] PL, despite being a league that players and viewers dont really care abt. [...]
I cant believe someone wrote this.. You, sir, are either insane, or blatantly lying to yourself, or were born with an intelligence that make earthworms look like Einsteins in comparison. Thousands of fans came to watch Proleague finals live, hundreds of thousands of them watch them through TV or Livestream. Players practiced for MONTHS for it, giving it priority over both MSL n OSL.. And here you are saying that players and viewers dont care about it.. I am hoping that you can provide a single shed of proof in the form of anyone (outside of insane ones like yourself) saying that they do not care of Proleague.
GSL, being the new shiny thing needs to make a sound to be heard. its not gonna be heard if its put on at 10am or midnight. anyone can see this is a huge sign of disrespect to gsl and gom by the established scene. Considering gsl is also the current flagship of the sc2 scene it also is under huge pressure to succeed.
I think you got it wrong.. GSL in fact can broadcast during prime time.. They just know that they dont stand a fighting chance as their ball-vs-ball-after-20-minute gameplay cant even begin to compare to Brood War in all of its glory. Thats why they are trying to kill off competition through this underhanded means rather than competing openly. As a viewer, i would have thought that you would prefer the freedom to choose, rather than being forced to watch SC2 just cos there is no PL to be watched.
Lastly, i would like to mention the fact that GOM said they would like to do away with the current team format for e-Sports, and keep it to a everyman-for-himself tournament format. Other than some SC2 fans who are blinded by their shiny new toys, any other blind guy and his grandma can see that this is reverting e-Sport back to its infantile stage. Face it, even for top players, if one slump means no food and no shelter for the coming months (until you unslump), nobody is willing to devote all their time n effort to make a living out of this. And for lesser players who would nvr reach the top (read A-team standard but not S-class), theres no hope to make a living at all.. And if nobody makes a living out of it, its not a "sport".
You PL fanboys cant read for shit. i said proleague is the core of progaming and that gsl is not a reasonable replacement. THERES NO HIGHER PRAISE THAN SAYING THAT PL IS THE CORE OF PROGAMING. When i said dont care abt i mean as fans of the players as well as the players. I shouldnt have been so harsh on the words, cos obv ppl do care (who else would do the writeups?) but most casual specs like me are like that with our commitment to watching the scene. can you name 5 osl champs? yes. can you name 5 PL winning lineups? no. do you watch every PL game? prolly not, do you watch every flash game? prolly yes. Would jaedong rather win a` PL game then his next indiv one? probably not. does jaedong want to win in PL? well if he doesnt who the fuck on oz will. I care, just not much.
PL is a strong show, but i think ppl follow players more than the teams. as such its not uncommon for someone like myself to follow 1 or 2 teams in PL , but 5 or so other players in the pl but keep tabs on every ro32 game for an indiv title. I am supporting the PL but its more the players that i watch than the teams.
However, not giving any concessions to gom at the negotiating table wont do kespa or the proscene any good in the long run. Because of the nature of pl programming, there should be room towards the end of the season when some teams are not gonna find themselves at the podium, and at this time maybe gsl should get some time. or maybe early in pl season you could have some decent time for gsl. as long as ppl are willing to negotiate theres hope for an outcome, as soon as u get this holier than thou attitude where some things are not negotiable then its fucked. Not saying GOM has done this right but at least theyve been more flexible. id say they have more to lose by bringing this to court than kespa.
Do you really think its OK for kespa to never give gom an opportunity to put ball vs ball on the screen so the viewers can decide for themself if they want to watch it? for someone who wants freedom to choose you sure as hell dont care for it.
anyways, i think i should of just taken the mature route of not commenting on anything until its in writing. NDA's were supposed to be up so that we wouldnt have trial by media but thats been thrown out the window.
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
Are you seriously asking that question? Read the damn thread. T_____T
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
The whole idea of e-sports is silly, but it's also entertaining. Proleague, silly or not, is more entertaining than individual leagues. Pretty simple, really.
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
You just joined the SC scene? And I assume it's because of sc2?
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
Team leagues makes more players able to live of it, which means higher over all quality. If you just have solo competitions you will have the same 10 people win them, leaving them good with no competition coming up since the new players can't train as much due to not making any money.
With teams you have 10 payed players (or thereabout) per team. Which leads to many more players being able to put in the hours needed in a good setting in order to raise the quality of the game.
Another point is recognition, in NFL, NHL of Premier League, do you switch your favourite team each time a player switches team? Teams are easier to follow than players, leading to more viewers.
Team leagues also makes regular games of players you want to follow easier to find. You know that team plays each week at 8 o'clock at that location if at home. Easy to find. The opposite can be argued about tennis and so on, but why aren't they as big as the other sports?
On September 07 2010 20:37 Archerofaiur wrote:Also is there anywhere that has a kinda beginers guid to how esports/proteams etc.. works in korea. There are about a thousand acronyms associated with this debacle and people might have trouble with all the mbc,gsl,gom,ogn,skt,kt etc...
I can't see myself enjoying watching professional SC2 more than SC1 unless the game undergo some drastic changes. It's really ridiculous that these corporations will not budge. GOM will have a hard time winning this case in Korean court I am sure.
On September 07 2010 16:23 sAAvior wrote: Imagine that some kind of billionaire decides to kill competitive tennis by introducing "tennis for fat people" the game is like normal tennis but with bigger, slower balls and only could be played by people who are 250+lbs. Billionaire is rich and sponsors tournaments with 5x prizes of grand slams and other tournaments. He also buys tv networks and make them not broadcast "old" tennis. The players have no choice but to switch to new game and become fat because it's where the money is. Viewers as much as they hate the situation has to watch tennis for fat people because there is no regular high level tennis anymore as all the money are in new game.
This is exactly what Blizzard tries to force over us. When the smoke is cleared and Blizzard stops pouring money into sc2 tourneys we will be left with dead scene and dead old game which was so great to watch and had so many fans. This is not how free market works and this is not how you promote new stuff. I honestly hope more communities will join this "antiblizzard" thing KeSPA and pro teams forms. People should see that current EULA and Blizzard policy makes it impossible for this game to be esport success. Go to hell blizzard and don't ruin my favourite entertainment.
Fuck this fat tennis, one fat moneybag will never make me do that, you can always choose, you're not a puppet after all, I will not watch SC2 if there will not be SC proleague, oh I swear I will not!
Blizzard can, in fact, just drop the hammer. However it would be a very big hit, which I doubt they want to take.
My predictions? everything goes on like it is now, and if gomtv doesn't take the lead in the viewer count they just might ask blizzard to intervene. Kespa will probably switch the proleague schedule on the TV then.
i really hope that Gretech and Kespa will have a decent decision that will benefit us all. i really want BW players to play SC2 and make it as epic as BW.
On September 07 2010 18:23 endy wrote: It's time to show how we, Proleague fans, are the root of the unshakable eSports tree.
Well, maybe the root that it grew from but I don't think branches like Halo and WoW care what we think. :-P
Excuse my ignorance but please enlighten me as to what Halo and WoW have to do with e-Sports.. As far as i know, those were mere games, e-Sport on the other hand is a completely different concept.
Edit: I would like to also mention that it is nearly impossible to argue that Blizzard does not know of all these negotiations going on. And if they know and said nothing, i dont see it as any different from Blizzard directly do all these.
Wikipedia has a lovely article on the subject, I don't feel I should really go into it here. If you're interested with the history, it starts at Doom and Quake and works its way up through Starcraft and then the latest games.
I am sorry for not getting the initial reference, I read it as a literal dependency of e-sports on the pro-teams.
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
Jesus f**ing Christ!!! Just because I see you're too newbie to judge, I won't smash your face.
On September 07 2010 20:33 Waxangel wrote: Considering almost all of the "things said by people" part is from people who were from kespa directly or pro kespa, I'm not taking that summary seriously at all. Until Gretech comes out with an official stance (they won't, because they actually respect an NDA), everything is pure speculation.
There's plenty of things from Gretech informants within the negotiations. There are also supposedly "neutral" parties. (Read the first fomos article (second in my thread), and there's a few other comments from Gretech informants)
On September 07 2010 20:37 Archerofaiur wrote: Ive been looking for a summary like this for a long time. Thanks Milkis. Also is there anywhere that has a kinda beginers guid to how esports/proteams etc.. works in korea. There are about a thousand acronyms associated with this debacle and people might have trouble with all the mbc,gsl,gom,ogn,skt,kt etc...
Also, iirc, the Ministry of Culture has previously stepped in during the negotiations between Kespa/IEG vs MBC/OGN, so that'll probably happen before any type of court battle
Edit, and quoting myself from another thread.
It's strange that people see that Gretech as acting on their own. You don't think Blizzard is keeping tabs on their sole "partner" in Korea? If the whole point of Blizzard vs Kespa is about control, you think they just sold the contracts to Gretech and let them have free reign?
Edit2: Mike Morhaime showed up for the opening day of the GSL, too. So unless he is totally oblivious, he sure as hell knows what Gretech is up to.
On September 07 2010 23:36 pinkranger15 wrote: i really hope that Gretech and Kespa will have a decent decision that will benefit us all. i really want BW players to play SC2 and make it as epic as BW.
4 years later u wanna SC2 players to play Warcraft4
It's neither Gretech of KeSPA who's wrong here. It's Blizzards fat money grubbing fingers reaching into the pot of eSports, something they should stay the hell out off.
I don't like the way Blizzard handled this in the first place but seriously?! Reading that summary I didn't see one single concession from Kespa.
Their idea of negotiating seems to be; we will give you absolutely nothing and you will do what we want. They aren't negotiating at all, they're just getting angry and throwing their weight around. I find it rather pathetic particularly after they strong-armed the GomTV tournaments.
Things have changed. SC2 is out and they're going to have to conceed to helping the SC2 scene develop, at least a little. Either that or play a game that ISN'T owned by Blizzard.
To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
On September 08 2010 00:27 SubtleArt wrote: So when did Gretech get all these rights? Why weren't they given to Kespa? just curious
When Kespa refused to cooperate with Blizzard and refused to buy the rights. Gretech bought them instead. Now Gretech is fucking Kespa up for it. That's afaik.
Wow... this is such a fanboyism thread... those who believe SC2 is the BEST ask KESPA to shut up and let go. Those who love SC:BW will say to hell with Gretech and Blizz.. ugh... no comment on that.
Anyway.. just a point. SC:BW would be dead without the Koreans. The maps that make the game balance are all korean made ( Mapdori ) Look at Warcraft for an example. Korean's dont treat it like how they treat SC:BW, and look where it went. If it was not for SC:BW, WCG would not be so great either...
I just wanna say that to the guys that says Blizzard will win a lawsuit, because "its there game" its not that simple. There was a case in USA, where a guy invented some games, and was running some tournaments for some schools. This guy got into some personal issues with the schools, and the schools got rid of him, and continued the tournaments. He sued and LOST, even though it was HIS games. Iirc the judge said that tournaments are not a "performance" and even if they where, the schools would still win, under "fair use" because it was a non-profit arrangement.
So if Kespa truly are non-profit, why would they lose?
Well, Im just saying, its not a clear cut case, in fact a court-ruling would be interesting to follow.
On September 07 2010 20:37 Archerofaiur wrote: Ive been looking for a summary like this for a long time. Thanks Milkis. Also is there anywhere that has a kinda beginers guid to how esports/proteams etc.. works in korea. There are about a thousand acronyms associated with this debacle and people might have trouble with all the mbc,gsl,gom,ogn,skt,kt etc...
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
The team league is what made it Esports and not a conglomeration of tournaments. The team league is what made Korea the center of Esports that other games like Halo and Super Smash Bros cannot even come close to. Team league is a format where players have dependable salaries due to dependable games. Team league is a dependable format for sponsors. Proleague IS Esports, and the most ridiculous decision ever is for GOM to say no to Proleague in SC2. I'd be fine with SC2 if it had a Proleague, but without it it's no more of an Esport than Halo. Without Proleague, the entire infrastructure is gone.
Please go back and read before you make a silly post like that. Go understand the Proleague and what it did for SCBW and then talk about it. Thank you.
Blizzard doesnt care about BW. They want it out of the way so they can turn SC2 into a money making machine for them. They dont care about esports, they just want their newest product to be succesful. Honestly if it goes to court it will a long, costly battle in court that could go either way. Both Gretech and Kespa knows this or Kespa would of just said fuck you to Gretech and not bothered to negotiate.
On September 07 2010 23:13 DiamondTear wrote: I don't like what GOM is doing, but the whole idea of proleague is silly. It's not a team game, so why do you have a team league?
The team league is what made it Esports and not a conglomeration of tournaments. The team league is what made Korea the center of Esports that other games like Halo and Super Smash Bros cannot even come close to. Team league is a format where players have dependable salaries due to dependable games. Team league is a dependable format for sponsors. Proleague IS Esports, and the most ridiculous decision ever is for GOM to say no to Proleague in SC2. I'd be fine with SC2 if it had a Proleague, but without it it's no more of an Esport than Halo. Without Proleague, the entire infrastructure is gone.
Please go back and read before you make a silly post like that. Go understand the Proleague and what it did for SCBW and then talk about it. Thank you.
Kind of reminds me of season 2 of Entourage when Ari has his boss come back after he propelled the business and kept it thriving all those years and he wants to take everything for himself and profit when he did shit but put the right elements in place and make the company.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
I think Gretech is being unreasonable in demanding the prime time timeslot but on the other hand KeSPA doesn't seem to want to meet halfway on any point what so ever.
Personally I wouldn't mind if they killed proleague or even the sc1 scene if they did it for the right reasons but I'm afraid they aren't. It was a great time watchiong sc1 vods and streams. But now I feel like its over soon.
Seriously, both sides are stubborn and this will only hurt the fans and players and could have the potential to kill SC related e-sports in Korea forever.
It's unfortunate that it has to come down to this.
Starcraft has an extremely long history, even before it was big in Korea and Blizzard was somewhat-interested in keeping it afloat. I still remember match reports before replays, and reading about soso's experiences and what he was thinking vs. some older players like Maynard or Grrr is stuff that I never will forget.
But I also enjoy, at least at the surface-level, what KeSPA has accomplished in that teams and proleague can exist and draw viewers that do not even really understand the game. Attaching teams and players is extremely powerful, after all.
It's a shame that both parties are being exceptionally bull-headed, given that a collaborative effort would probably result in something more beneficial to the fans.
I still believe that Proleague is the cornerstone of Korean e-sports in that it embodies more Eastern tendencies to favor collective efforts over individual efforts, which is what Blizzard seems to be pushing with Starcraft 2 and their extoling of individual players. Both can exist in their respective cultures, but bridging that gap I think is much more difficult.
As for Korean e-sports, Proleague allows teams to flourish and allows players to develop, likely faster than they would on an individual basis, since even though a player on a team is not necessarily raking in the wins, they can still be beneficial to the team through particular sniping situations, and serve as good practice and encouragement to the players on the bench. In this way, you have more players reaching that 'higher level' of play since everyone is competing on that level.
Take into contrast with the Starcraft 2 situation -- it currently favors individual accomplishments, which is an excellent way to promote *accessibility*. But it is more difficult for the scene to grow as a whole, I think, since people would be less inclined to share strategies with each other in order to make that next big win (you saw this a lot in the old fighting game scene, where top players would not reveal secrets until they had won X tournament; still kind of occurs).
But overall, I'd think the problem is really just due to core cultural differences and goals between two companies.
I personally think that KeSPA should be able to continue with the Proleague and Brood War ... for now. But I also believe that there comes a point where older things should be retired in favor of the newer things in order to continue generating interest. Whereas some things like Chess or other sports are timeless and rarely show age, a video game is different. This is one of the biggest hurdles that e-sports needs to overcome; a sudden shift from one game to another is extremely disorienting, and does not really occur with what we would call 'traditional' sports like football, hockey, basketball, or even chess and the like. They are in static form, and can exist that way because we can continue to use technology to enhance that form or media. We cannot do the same with a computer game (to an extent --- for example, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, a classic fighting game has a modern incarnation in its HD Remix that has replaced the former at the higher-levels of play, but the game *is* different, and you do have opponents and supporters).
Retiring a game is not always bad. And at its core, I think that a majority of fans are most enamored with the teams and the players, not the core gameplay. That's why you can have 3 year old Koreans getting air-time for giving hearts to Bisu. And that's why a person like me, who played Starcraft on its initial release, then stopped around 2002 -- could continue to enjoy the scene throughout the decade by continuing to keep up (and wave goodbye to) the players I loved like Maynard, soso, Boxer, nal_ra, Savior, and the like.
I can empathize with the players who still play Brood War and have invested so much time and effort into the game. And yes, it's somewhat unfair and unrealistic to think that a pro player would give up a comfortable lifestyle in favor of a less predictable one. But eventually, things do come to an end, and it's important that we look to the future and consider other possibilities, or even the best possibilities out of a worst-case scenario. And I think this holds especially true for the pro-players who are getting swept up into all of this nonsense as well.
I still think Starcraft 2 can and will succeed, but I also think that something similar to a Proleague would be more beneficial than the current "individual prize pool" tournaments.
On September 07 2010 22:40 TheStupidOne wrote: If it was really just about the money, I have a feeling KeSPA would have signed for rights years ago. This spat isn't anything new. To me this is a fight over control, who controls the e-sports scene. Now, how much control is really up in the air at this point, we know both KeSPA and Blizzard have giant egos. It's just as likely that Blizzard just wanted a guy on the KeSPA board or wanted to negotiate better player conditions, or that Blizzard really does want to micromanage every single aspect and leave KeSPA as nothing more than a liability puppet. We won't know until things goto court (and even then we may never know).
As much as I hate to say it, and now that it's basically come down to a legal fight, I want KeSPA to win. KeSPA's legal stance rests on the players owning the rights to their performances, vs Blizzard saying anything made or using Starcraft IP is thus owned by them as well. If Blizzard wins then a horrible precedent is set. Imagine if Bic owned the rights to anything you wrote with their pens, or Xerox owned the rights to anything they copy. How absurd is that? Yet Blizzard is arguing that's the case here.
As big of assholes KeSPA has been towards the players, there's far bigger chance of changing KeSPA's attitudes and player regulations over changing Blizzard's. If players walk and strike on KeSPA, they're hurting bad, they just lost their money maker and they'll be pressed hard to negotiate better terms. If players walk and strike on Blizzard, Blizzard just goes "pffft I already made boatloads off the game, see ya!" and ignores them.
This fight may end up being one of the most pivotal IP (and by extension, consumer) rights fights ever. Just wish our side didn't benefit KeSPA :\
There is a huge difference between regular property like pens and intellectual property like books or software. With pens, you can use it whenever you want and you own all derivatives. With books software or music, you are simply purchasing a liscence to the product to be used in a manner that the owner sets forth. In music it's listening, in movies its viewing, and software its distributing and in all cases it involves owning the rights to all derivatives.
So if Blizzard sues and loses (or rather Gretech sues and loses) what does that mean for broadcasting of Starcraft and Starcraft 2 in general? Or does it not affect anything outside of Korea?
As a SC2 player, I do not understand how killing off BW is a good thing -_-. Competetively SC2 is young and still has some refining to do, and if it is the better game the transition will happen naturally. All gretech is doing is creating a rift between BW and SC2 players.
The whole point though is blizzard freaking made the game. Yes Kespa made it popular, but it is still blizzards game and they can do WTH they want. Of course they will make the most profitable decision which will likely mean the PL will continue for a while, but I hate when people team up against creators. I really enjoy the PL, i've watched all of the latest big matchups since I got into the starcraft scene, but this is an ethical issue here. Does blizzard own the rights? Yes. Can blizzard do WTH they want? Yes. Should PL continue? Yes. Should Kespa come down off of its high horse and realize it is in a losing situation and actually negotiate with gretech (rather than just make a whole bunch of demands and not accept any comprimises?) Yes. Will they do it? Who knows.
In this situation Kespa really are the big assholes. They are fighting for the survival of the PL and don't want to lose any progamers so they are using that to their advantage, which is fine, but if kespa isn't willing to concede anything, then PL will be gone. Please someone name 1 thing kespa has been willing to compromise on yet? For blizzard they allowed kespa to finish the season up before next season's negotiations which is a lot more than they could have done already.
So, let me get this all straight, I've been reading into it a bit more..
1) Gretech's negotiations was basically "Give us your time slot for the GSL, and you can have a different time slot.". Kespa, arguably justly, refused.
Now, here are the two sides of it from what I see * A) Kespa has been broadcasting BW for years, and basically formed the scene. Thus they should not have to give up the time-slot they have had for years.
and;
B) Gretech has the sole rights to broadcast BW and SC2, thus they could shut down the Proleague if they wanted, but are giving Kespa a chance to have it, just at a worse time.
So what the outcome of this is, Kespa isn't willing to have a different timeslot, and are going to risk the Proleague dieing all together?
So, IMO, it's Law vs Morality. I think if it goes to court, law will win =\
*Please note, A and B are different sides of the argument, not mine.
The whole point though is blizzard freaking made the game
So what ? I, koreans, TL members and 10 millions of other people bought the game and they may do with it w/e the fuck they please. Your "point" doesn't make sense. The matter is not clearcut at all even if you only consider law which is made in authors/copyright owners anyway. If you start considering moral rights or how people feel law should be Blizzard would lose bigtime here.
So, IMO, it's Law vs Morality. I think if it goes to court, law will win =\
a)it wouldn't be clear who would win in court even in US or Europe b)fortunately it's Korea so it's even less clear
The whole point though is blizzard freaking made the game
So what ? I, koreans, TL members and 10 millions of other people bought the game and they may do with it w/e the fuck they please. Your "point" doesn't make sense. The matter is not clearcut at all even if you only consider law which is made in authors/copyright owners anyway. If you start considering moral rights or how people feel law should be Blizzard would lose bigtime here.
So, IMO, it's Law vs Morality. I think if it goes to court, law will win =\
a)it wouldn't be clear who would win in court even in US or Europe b)fortunately it's Korea so it's even less clear
The thing with IP is that there are international agreements on IP and if blizzard lost in court in korea somehow then they would go to international community and get them to jump onto korea. Like I said before. Even if kespa had been doing starcraft for 50 years, it's still blizzards game. Kespa should have gotten blizzards blessing 7 years ago and none of this would be a problem right now, but they refused to negotiate anything and now it's biting them in the but. As a purchaser of the liscence you may fully enjoy the single and multiplayer aspects of the game. You can have your own tournaments, leagues, whatever, but the minute you want to broadcast it, IP kicks in. Just as FIFA owned the rights to streaming football during the world cup, blizzard owns the rights to streaming starcraft. We should definitely hope for the best and blizzard doesn't want bad press, but no. The legal issue is obvious....blizzard wins any IP battle, so its up to kespa if proleague continues if they are actually willing to negotiate.
Just as FIFA owned the rights to streaming football during the world cup, blizzard owns the rights to streaming starcraft
Is this a fact or your guess ? I am asking because it's my impression that it's not sure thing but I am no expert on the subject obviously. And if you want compare FIFA to anything here it would be KeSPA. They are governing of professional starcraft afterall.
What am I gonna do on tl if bw dies, Sc2 is pretty meh imo, an ethical delimma would completely kill it for me. I don't know enough people to stay for just the community... That would be sad times
Just as FIFA owned the rights to streaming football during the world cup, blizzard owns the rights to streaming starcraft
Is this a fact or your guess ? I am asking because it's my impression that it's not sure thing but I am no expert on the subject obviously. And if you want compare FIFA to anything here it would be KeSPA. They are governing of professional starcraft afterall.
They created the world cup event, so yes they own the rights to streaming world cup football. There were huge issues in Australia over streaming because of how much money fifa wanted. No fifa didn't create football, so they don't own the rights to all football, but in the US there was a league called XFL and it was invented based on american football, but since they had created the game they owned all the IP rights to broadcasting.
On September 08 2010 03:11 darmousseh wrote:Just as FIFA owned the rights to streaming football during the world cup, blizzard owns the rights to streaming starcraft. (emphasis added)
FIFA had those rights because it was their tournament, under their auspices, organized by them. They would not own broadcasting rights to, say, MLS championship. I don't think it's 100% clear that Blizzard outright owns broadcasting rights for tournaments they have nothing to do with.
Would Milton Bradley own broadcast rights for any random Simon tournament? I don't think they should. They might be able to exercise copyright and prevent it from being called a Simon tournament so no one mistakes it for official, but I doubt they could prevent it from being broadcast. Or maybe they could. You might have a tough time putting on a Slamball tournament without approval from Mason Gordon and Pat Croce.
Copyright may allow Blizzard to exercise control over all broadcasts, but I'm not sure it should. The courts will have something to say I guess.
I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to.
EDIT: Also, just to remind everyone, KeSPA itself sold (or tried to sell) the broadcasting rights to SC back in 2006-2007 somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened though, but it does seem slightly hypocritical for them to try to sell the rights when they believe they own it, before rejecting the existence of such rights now that Blizzard is claiming it.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
QFT
Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this
Lol. This. Will just have the opposite effect. Sc2 fans will be fans calling. Them names doesn't. Help
This is redicolus, Obviously Gretech wants that timeslot. its the best possible. I honestly think Kespa should have accepted the change in slots, embraced the change and tried to get SC2 to be good too. Everyone in Kespa/Teams is acting as if SC2 is so evil ass game trying to kill poor pure BW. Games succeed games, this is the nature of Esports. Eventually sometime even if its not SC2, a new game will just surpass it. I really love BW and the progaming scene but come on now, everyone acts as if Kespa and the teams are victims of blizzard and GOM, what if it was the opposite then, I think if GOM was the authority incharge of BW for all these years and kespa is a new association that is handling SC2 then Kespa will do the same shit GOM is doing right now. This is not a fight for the fans, this is a fight to keep the cash flowing for as long as it happens. I am pretty confident SC2 will become as intresting as BW if progaming teams start forming, drama develops, and fanbases occure.
Here are the terms kespa couldn't agree to which got them in the situation they are in now.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
EDIT: Yeah in 2007 kespa started selling broadcasting rights to different networks and blizzard found out so they entered negotations, but blizzard stopped negotiations when kespa wasn't willing to concede any of the terms listed above.
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to.
You are really contradicting yourself.
A. You first said: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous.
B. Then you said: If I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard.They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments...etc
But things in B is exactly what you deemed ridiculous in A - since I assume you were not there in the meetings and you based it all on "snippets of biased information" you've gotten from the internet?
On September 08 2010 03:56 darmousseh wrote: Here are the terms kespa couldn't agree to which got them in the situation they are in now.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
EDIT: Yeah in 2007 kespa started selling broadcasting rights to different networks and blizzard found out so they entered negotations, but blizzard stopped negotiations when kespa wasn't willing to concede any of the terms listed above.
They did agree to pay some sort of royalties/fees, but the other terms were just ridiculous. Not to mention the demand that KeSPA players sign extra contacts with Blizzard that override the contracts with their actual sponsors. WTF.
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to.
EDIT: Also, just to remind everyone, KeSPA itself sold (or tried to sell) the broadcasting rights to SC back in 2006-2007 somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened though, but it does seem slightly hypocritical for them to try to sell the rights when they believe they own it, before rejecting the existence of such rights now that Blizzard is claiming it.
Pretty much this is what I got from the summary, if you take a step back and look at what's really going on. KeSPA needs to make SOME kind of concession, they can't just have it all when they refused to buy the IP rights from Blizzard in the first place.
While I'm grateful for the entertainment the Korean BW Pro-scene has given me, this doesn't give them a free license to steal from Blizzard. Blizzard was alright with the BW pro-scene for many years, but then KeSPA started behaving as a rabid dog and biting the hand that fed it, inconditionally opposing any e-sports initiative parallel to its own, including the GOM TV Intel Classic tournaments and Starcraft 2. Blizzard decides such hostility is unwarranted, takes off the kiddy gloves, and starts playing hardball; the rest is history.
I want KeSPA to lose, and hopefully to lose badly, if only because they behave like a nearsighted pitbull with rabies; they are not fighting for the preservation and advancement of e-sports, they are fighting for the preservation of their own little fiefdom and business model. In trying to bite the head off the competition, they've bitten more than they can chew. I have nothing against BW and I wish it didn't have to end this way, but the retarded schoolground bully that is KeSPA doesn't realize it's fighting a grown man with an army of lawyers.
it has been one exciting year for koreans now isn't it, first the MSL blackout bullshit, then the matchmaking bullshit, now we have this pile of shit...
if it was the problem of broadcasting time, since there is 2 different day of prime time telecast, why don't each take a day then everyone will be happy then? SC1 on monday and SC2 on tuesday, whichever that proves to be more popular keeps the primetime broadcast?
i don take sides in this situation, in fact i hate both of them for not willing to compromise to get an agreement going, the one that will get hurt the most in the end is us the fans and them pro-gamers...
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
[stuff]
EDIT: Also, just to remind everyone, KeSPA itself sold (or tried to sell) the broadcasting rights to SC back in 2006-2007 somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened though, but it does seem slightly hypocritical for them to try to sell the rights when they believe they own it, before rejecting the existence of such rights now that Blizzard is claiming it.
I'm pretty sure you don't know what the Gretech/Blizzard terms were either, so maybe you shouldn't pass judgment on them like you suggest other people do!
It wasn't broadcasting rights to "SC". It was broadcasting rights to proleague, the tournament they run. Along with this, because they had all the players, OGN/MBC couldn't run their leagues either due to a boycott. Unsure of what the final terms were, but it was eventually settled when the government stepped in.
Unproven games should not get a free pass and get a prime time slot just because it has "StarCraft" in its title. BW earned respect from dirt to gold, and so will SC2. Deal with it Gom, your shitty game is unproven so back off.
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to.
EDIT: Also, just to remind everyone, KeSPA itself sold (or tried to sell) the broadcasting rights to SC back in 2006-2007 somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened though, but it does seem slightly hypocritical for them to try to sell the rights when they believe they own it, before rejecting the existence of such rights now that Blizzard is claiming it.
Pretty much this is what I got from the summary, if you take a step back and look at what's really going on. KeSPA needs to make SOME kind of concession, they can't just have it all when they refused to buy the IP rights from Blizzard in the first place.
Again, they did not refuse to buy the rights. They refused to accept all the other ridiculous terms. In their negotiations with Gretech they actually said they want to reimburse them with money. Gretech didn't actually want money, they wanted ProLeague out of the picture because they doubt GSL will be able to compete.
Also afaik the esports scene got "Blizzard's blessing" in the sense that Blizzard did not interfere in any way when the very publisher of StarCraft in Korea (HanbitSoft) was building the whole esports scene together with other companies.
On September 08 2010 04:19 Zato-1 wrote: While I'm grateful for the entertainment the Korean BW Pro-scene has given me, this doesn't give them a free license to steal from Blizzard. Blizzard was alright with the BW pro-scene for many years, but then KeSPA started behaving as a rabid dog and biting the hand that fed it, inconditionally opposing any e-sports initiative parallel to its own, including the GOM TV Intel Classic tournaments and Starcraft 2. Blizzard decides such hostility is unwarranted, takes off the kiddy gloves, and starts playing hardball; the rest is history.
I want KeSPA to lose, and hopefully to lose badly, if only because they behave like a nearsighted pitbull with rabies; they are not fighting for the preservation and advancement of e-sports, they are fighting for the preservation of their own little fiefdom and business model. In trying to bite the head off the competition, they've bitten more than they can chew. I have nothing against BW and I wish it didn't have to end this way, but the retarded schoolground bully that is KeSPA doesn't realize it's fighting a grown man with an army of lawyers.
You got your facts wrong.
First Blizzard made idiotic demands (the ownership/control of EVERYTHING StarCraft related, including every programme on TV and the teams KeSPA corporations fork millions of dollars a year to sustain) and their negotiations went down the shitter.
Then they wanted to establish a beacon in Korea, so they sponsored GSL S3. Since Blizzard and KeSPA were at odds, KeSPA made it clear that no league not sanctioned by them will get the support from proteams, especially if it teams up with Blizzard, which wants to take control of the whole scene (it's ridiculous how Gretech think that all progamers are somehow OBLIGED to participate in their tournaments just because they offer a prize...).
Just as FIFA owned the rights to streaming football during the world cup, blizzard owns the rights to streaming starcraft.
Ha, you play the card right in our hands. FIFA is a non-profit organization, it organize and rule the world cup. Just like what KeSPA has been doing for many years. Or you do not even know what KeSPA is?
If you want to compare, Blizzard is the one who invented soccer. KeSPA is the one who made it popular, like FIFA.
Ugh. A lawsuit will last awhile and probably cost KeSPA, Gretech, and Blizzard a ton of money so it's not going to be good for anyone.
I have full confidence though that the courts will side with KeSPA as they'll likely claim both fair use and the fact that they've been doing this for a decade without Blizzard seeming to care at all. At least, I hope they side with KeSPA because if not the judge who makes that decision is gonna get so much hate mail. >:l
So, correct me if im wrong but this is the understanding that i have
Gretech dosnt want any money from MBC/OGN/KeSPA
they just want two primetime tv slots on monday and tuesday that would have gone to proleague
KeSPA could have easily said OK and just taken a timeslot before or after but Kespa decided no
Gretech then requested compensation for allowing the proleague to take place and directly compete with the GSL and KeSPA decided no fuck you
Gretech seeing that KeSPA isnt willing to budge decided that they did not wait to sign off on the proleague
Ontop of all that, after this KeSPA threatened to pull all their players from the MSL unless they drop the GSL from airing on OGN (it wasnt said in this artical but it happened)
if they all seems to be true its fairly clear to me that KeSPA is completely unwilling to budge here and be damned whoever attempts to fuck with KeSPA
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. what they really wanted was the time slots from what i read in this artical. Kespa said no so Gretech decided not to sign off on proleague.
"GSL was the center of the problem, because starting with October, the schedules would conflict with the Proleague. GSL takes place from Monday to Friday, and Proleague goes from Saturday to Wednesday -- Monday and Tuesday's prime time slots became the main cause of the problem."
they are fighting over time slots clearly from the above sentence. when it was declined Gretech asked for money.
This is kind of late, but at that huge anti-SC2fans rant... man. I couldn't even make it through that. Every other sentence there was some 'fuck you' or 'you idiot' aimed at some drooling lobotomized strawman. People need to calm the fuck down. Going off on an emotional diatribe makes you worse than all of the parties involved here; at least they have logical reasons for doing what they do, and don't just spew hatred.
It is so weird that so many people believed that Blizzard has the legal rights here. Who told you so, any clause in law specifically? If so, please cite it. And did Blizzard write this in the agreement when they sell every copy of BW? And any other precedent on court similar to this situation?
If Gretech wants to pay tons of money for the legal rights which turns out to be nothing. That's not KeSPA's problem. KeSPA is no charity to clean up Gretech's mess.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
Even if it was in the agreement i believe its been shown numerous times that EULA's with software have been considered unreasonable and not legally enforceable.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote: KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
The Korea government might get involve because they are quite proud of their status as the world's leading esport country.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
Is this from the part titled "Things Said by People""?
On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote: KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
The Korea government might get involve because they are quite proud of their status as the world's leading esport country.
Seeing as KesPA is a goverment organisation, they already ARE involved.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
Is this from the title "Things Said by People""?
Of corse its from things said by people, the hard facts are only what time and who was at the meetings.
On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote: KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
Think again, who have more money.
Activision is just a small company, KeSPA Sponsor, SKT alone can take down Activision easily moneywise.
Let alone, SKT, KT, STX, Woonjin,etc, are now working together. Every one of these names can squash the shit out of Activision single-handedly.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate
i mean not only is this hindering proleague and basically making the death of BW, but its also stopping pro gamers from BW to come over to SC2 which just sucks big balls.
i hope some how this can be resolved, i mean tbh all this fighting is for "show times" i mean wtf? your gonna kill years of effort and epicness just cause you want primetime on tv? thats fucking bullshit
On September 08 2010 06:14 Hunch wrote: omfg this is sad
i mean not only is this hindering proleague and basically making the death of BW, but its also stopping pro gamers from BW to come over to SC2 which just sucks big balls.
i hope some how this can be resolved, i mean tbh all this fighting is for "show times" i mean wtf? your gonna kill years of effort and epicness just cause you want primetime on tv? thats fucking bullshit
I hope theres like 10k people watching gsl and like 1 million watching proleague (idk about numbers just an example ) to prove that sc2 fails as a spectator's sport and osl msl and pl will live forever for me and many other's viewing enjoyments.
The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate
They want OGN/MBC to neglect their own league and promote a game they don't want to have anything to do with (and most likely pay Gretech for that on top of that). Why on earth would KeSPA want to cooperate? Just so that they can keep doing what they have been doing for years? Even though Blizzard/Gretech might even not have the legal grounds to demand that?
On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote: KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
Think again, who have more money.
Activision is just a small company, KeSPA Sponsor, SKT alone can take down Activision easily moneywise.
Let alone, SKT, KT, STX, Woonjing,etc, are now working together. Every one of these names can squash the shit out of Activision single-handedly.
Thing about Activision is, they are a small piece of a bigger puzzle as well.
If it goes to court money will not be an issue on both sides and it will be us who suffer.
On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote: The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
I aglee 100% in this statement. All the main stream sports football in america football again in europe (lol :D) and other less popular but still popular sports like baseball and hockey and basketball are all team sports. Sure theres the odd tennis tournament but im sure those ratings aren't even remotely as good until the end rounds as a colts vs patriot game even in the regular seasons.
Keep this thread on topic starting now. This thread is not about whether SC1 or SC2 is better, and it is not about how much you love/hate KeSPA/Blizzard/Gretech. Also, any personal attacks launched from now on will be dealt with.
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to.
You are really contradicting yourself.
A. You first said: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous.
B. Then you said: If I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard.They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments...etc
But things in B is exactly what your deem ridiculous in A - since I assume you were not there in the meetings and you based it all on "snippets of biased information" you've gotten from the internet?
I honestly don't see the contradiction. In the first case, we have two warring organisations that disagree with each other and presenting their sides of the argument. In the second case, we have an organisation reporting on a purchase it made, a report which will certainly need to be backed up by financial statements and as such will need to be objective. Even if we disregard this point, I never said that we can't make judgements on anything because we tend to have limited information, I said that we can't make judgements on this specific case because our information is specifically too limited. We don't know what the exact conditions were, we don't know what the implications of these conditions are, and we don't know how they'll affect the related parties. In this specific case, we cannot make a judgement since we just do not know enough.
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
[stuff]
EDIT: Also, just to remind everyone, KeSPA itself sold (or tried to sell) the broadcasting rights to SC back in 2006-2007 somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened though, but it does seem slightly hypocritical for them to try to sell the rights when they believe they own it, before rejecting the existence of such rights now that Blizzard is claiming it.
I'm pretty sure you don't know what the Gretech/Blizzard terms were either, so maybe you shouldn't pass judgment on them like you suggest other people do!
It wasn't broadcasting rights to "SC". It was broadcasting rights to proleague, the tournament they run. Along with this, because they had all the players, OGN/MBC couldn't run their leagues either due to a boycott. Unsure of what the final terms were, but it was eventually settled when the government stepped in.
Once again, I don't see the contradiction here. I'm not passing judgement on KeSPA for either refusing to deal with Blizzard or not refusing to deal with Blizzard (as long as KeSPA's actions after negotiating with Blizzard were within IP laws), but I am pointing out that KeSPA's position on broadcasting rights regarding SC seems to be hypocritical. This is regardless of any negotiations they had with Blizzard.
Also, your distinction between SC and the Proleague is exactly what the legal battle will hinge on. The matter, as a whole, is quite complex and I really don't know who will win it should it go to court. Either way, I was simply discussing the matter from Gretech's point of view (and they did purchase the broadcast rights of SC), and I did add a disclaimer stating that should the broadcast rights for all of Starcraft not be enforceable, KeSPA would be in the right for standing its ground.
On September 08 2010 04:39 maybenexttime wrote: Again, they did not refuse to buy the rights. They refused to accept all the other ridiculous terms. In their negotiations with Gretech they actually said they want to reimburse them with money. Gretech didn't actually want money, they wanted ProLeague out of the picture because they doubt GSL will be able to compete.
Firstly, and this pretty much summarizes my position on all of this, the person with the legal power gets to set the conditions of the agreement. Regardless of how "ridiculous" Blizzard's conditions were, if they were in a legal position to make those demands then it would have been KeSPA's responsibility to either accept the demands or disband. I don't remember the demands being that ridiculous, but they did require a reworking of the current system to fit Blizzard in as well. Either way, it comes down to who has the legal position.
Secondly, KeSPA was willing to pay Gretech for the IP rights, but they weren't willing to stop competing with them (ie. broadcast at another time), or compensate them for competing with them (ie. pay more). To use an example from sport, you might sell the broadcast rights to an event you are also covering to a competitors, on the agreement that they do not cover the event live, or you could sell the live broadcast rights to them for a considerably higher price. Since you will lose a significant part of your viewer base by selling those rights, you should either get the prime spot or be demand more money. According to the reports we have here, KeSPA was not willing to give up the extra money or the time slots.
- Gretech wants Proleague's prime time slots. KeSPA finds this ridiculous. - Gretech is then wondering how KeSPA will reimburse the GSL, since the Proleague will "compete" with it and damage it. KeSPA responds that they refuse to reimburse damages for the GSL. Gretech asks if it's not monetary, in what other way will KeSPA pay for damages. KeSPA says they're here to talk about the Proleague, not about GSL and Starcraft 2
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
I don't think so, if you look at that quote in the spoiler above.
On September 08 2010 05:52 hydraden wrote:
It is so weird that so many people believed that Blizzard has the legal rights here. Who told you so, any clause in law specifically? If so, please cite it. And did Blizzard write this in the agreement when they sell every copy of BW? And any other precedent on court similar to this situation?
If Gretech wants to pay tons of money for the legal rights which turns out to be nothing. That's not KeSPA's problem. KeSPA is no charity to clean up Gretech's mess.
I agree with your second paragraph, which is what I've been saying. What I disagree with is your first paragraph. What makes you so sure that Blizzard doesn't have the legal rights? From what I understand, KeSPA would have to prove that the Proleague and Starleagues are all derivative works, and I have no idea how that law works. Either way, before demanding that other people provide evidence, why don't you point out why it's so obvious that Blizzard doesn't have the legal rights here?
On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote: The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
Gretech against teams? that is just retarded think about what your saying you're clearly jumping to the wrong conclusion
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate
They want OGN/MBC to neglect their own league and promote a game they don't want to have anything to do with (and most likely pay Gretech for that on top of that). Why on earth would KeSPA want to cooperate? Just so that they can keep doing what they have been doing for years? Even though Blizzard/Gretech might even not have the legal grounds to demand that?
It's not co-operation. It's blatant abuse.
its not so much a demand or blatant abuse its an exchange, you give me something and i give you something, this is how buisness works. Gretech just wants to promote the GSL and make a successful buisness out of SC2
now heres my personal opinion Gretech is NOT here to kill BW just get their fair chunk of the E-sports pie but it seems to me KeSPA is greedy and dosnt want to share their success and are willing to kill anything that competes with them. KeSPA clearly does not have the best intrests of e-sports in mind. Gretech is not completely innocent is this regard with wanting to take the proleague time spot but to a much lesser digree then KeSPA
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture.
You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result.
Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact?
i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post
- "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem"
taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate
They want OGN/MBC to neglect their own league and promote a game they don't want to have anything to do with (and most likely pay Gretech for that on top of that). Why on earth would KeSPA want to cooperate? Just so that they can keep doing what they have been doing for years? Even though Blizzard/Gretech might even not have the legal grounds to demand that?
It's not co-operation. It's blatant abuse.
You have an extremely biased viewpoint dude. Every single one of your posts in this thread (and in past similar threads) is filled to the brim with emotionally charged words and adjectives, as well as hyperbole and some of your own interpretation of events.
Like someone else posted, the schedule only conflicts on Mondays and Tuesdays, so they could've negotiated a deal around the TV schedule on these 2 days (e.g. Monday BW, Tuesday SC2), but too bad both sides are so stubborn.
On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote: The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
Gretech against teams? that is just retarded think about what your saying you're clearly jumping to the wrong conclusion
Have you read what they want with SC2? They have already declared they do not want a team league in SC2. They are trying to undermine the team contracts right now. Now they are trying to shut down pro league. Did I derive a reasonable conclusion to suggest that they may be against the idea of programming teams? I think so. And they have a reason for it too: it was through the programming teams that Kespa destroyed the GOM TV tournament. Also, the teams are what gives Kespa power. The teams are the only thing that GOM doesn't control.
Are you trying to tell me this doesn't all add up? Just take a sec to think about it and maybe read some more.
Vedic wrote: Activision can afford to rape them in court
Your idea of justice leaves me speechless.
I wouldn't want Activision anywhere near the E-Sports gaming scene. The moment the industry is deemed to be "unprofitable," they'll wash their hands clean of it.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote: Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
How is Blizzard being screwed over? What game from 1998 has as much advertisement as SCBW? Blizzard has only gained from Kespa, now they want to gain more.
On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote: The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
Gretech against teams? that is just retarded think about what your saying you're clearly jumping to the wrong conclusion
Have you read what they want with SC2? They have already declared they do not want a team league in SC2. They are trying to undermine the team contracts right now. Now they are trying to shut down pro league. Did I derive a reasonable conclusion to suggest that they may be against the idea of programming teams? I think so. And they have a reason for it too: it was through the programming teams that Kespa destroyed the GOM TV tournament. Also, the teams are what gives Kespa power. The teams are the only thing that GOM doesn't control.
Are you trying to tell me this doesn't all add up? Just take a sec to think about it and maybe read some more.
hmm, i guess this could be true i did miss where Gretech said they were against team leagues in sc2. if this is true its rather silly because teams do= quality players that the team environment produce. but clearly if this KeSPA issue is proof their is good reason for this.
On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote: Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
You are still assuming that Blizzard has the legal rights here. KeSPA definitely think differently. That's worth arguing even in court for several years.
And Blizzard being screwed over? Are you kidding me?
Obviously Kespa are morons. Even the koreans themselves know this. Blizzard never wanted to shut down proleague, they wanted kespa to acknowledge that it was their intellectual property. When it comes to SCBW the money is really just symbolic, however blizzard did want to make money on SC2 esports.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
honestly there were plenty of threads made arround compairing SCBW to some product that was made to produce things that people sell
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote: Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
How is Blizzard being screwed over? What game from 1998 has as much advertisement as SCBW? Blizzard has only gained from Kespa, now they want to gain more.
That still doesn't change the fact that the current BW scene will be competing with SC2. No matter how much attention I acquire for the band I love, when I start giving out free concert in the same city at their planned tour singing their song. How much do you want to bet they are still going to sue me for it?
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
See what I did there?
Your analogy is flawed when you said "change the beat and lyrics", you leave out important details on how you have been quietly reaping in all the cash from your song sales because someone else promoted it for you.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
See what I did there?
Your analogy is flawed when you said "change the beat and lyrics", you leave out important details on how you have been quietly reaping in all the cash from your song sales because someone else promoted it for you.
Vedic wrote: Activision can afford to rape them in court
Your idea of justice leaves me speechless.
What does justice have to do with this? Standing up against a company that you WILL lose to isn't brave, it's stupid. Instead of acting like a single season without proleague would be the end of the world, they should be looking for ways to make their business work. Instead, they're just running face first into the wall and saying "screw it, let's go to court!" - something that can ONLY be bad for us. When they end up bankrupt because they failed in court, you won't have any chance of any proleague unless Gom steps up.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
See what I did there?
Yes, I see what you did there. You made an analogy that was refuted by cases before. I think the case about digital antiskips was the one that established that digital files are are different from the SR (which includes the performance), and thus different rules apply. An SR includes the PA, and thus all performances and derivatives in things like musical arrangement, lyrics, etc (all covered in more depth by other court cases). In your case, what law would cover it would be SR law. That is completely different than IP law. However, if I'm not mistaken, a software synthesizer would be covered by the same IP law as a software computer game.
That still doesn't change the fact that the current BW scene will be competing with SC2. No matter how much attention I acquire for the band I love, when I start giving out free concert in the same city at their planned tour singing their song. How much do you want to bet they are still going to sue me for it?
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
See what I did there?
Yes, I see what you did there. You made an analogy that was refuted by cases before. I think the case about digital antiskips was the one that established that digital files are are different from the SR (which includes the performance), and thus different rules apply. An SR includes the PA, and thus all performances and derivatives in things like musical arrangement, lyrics, etc (all covered in more depth by other court cases). In your case, what law would cover it would be SR law. That is completely different than IP law. However, if I'm not mistaken, a software synthesizer would be covered by the same IP law as a software computer game.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
So with every report it becomes more apparent where Blizzard's loyalties lie and it's profits. (not much surprise there).
Do you want to get involved with sc2 esports run by blizzard? Then you must be quite dumb, let me explain...
Blizzard has proven already that they lose interest in their products quite quickly. They shut down their official broodwar ladder and let iccup take over simply because they didn't care. (not much profits left to be squeezed out) And now they actively try to even get one of their older products out of the way. If you ask me that is not the kind of image that makes you look like a trustworthy long-term partner.
No one can give young aspiring gamers wanting to become progamers a guarantee about their future careers, even with the broodwar scene, we have seen only very few players age and transition out of being a progamer. The branch is simply to young. However, Blizzards actions are just so ridiculous that even the most optimistic people should see that the future looks grim.
Be a sc2 progamer and wait for sc3 or w4 to come out and all you'd have achieved will be taken away from you and you will become nothing more that simply a barrier in blizzards way of making more money.
This is far-fetched, grim and very much anti-blizzard. However, I say, if not evidence, there are a lot of hints that this might be true.
Just ask yourself is blizzard acting in a way that makes you want to trust them on a long term?
That still doesn't change the fact that the current BW scene will be competing with SC2. No matter how much attention I acquire for the band I love, when I start giving out free concert in the same city at their planned tour singing their song. How much do you want to bet they are still going to sue me for it?
Ever heard of a cover band? Haha.
Ever heard of cease and desist order? Haha!!!!
Now that we are done with childish argument. Cover band for the most part do no make money off of the song in which they are covering. Furthermore, at any time when they do make money, the record company have every right to order them to stop doing so or risk heavy punishment. Not to mention KESPA is hardly a small no name band not making all that much money from the usage of blizzard property.
On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote: it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
See what I did there?
Yes, I see what you did there. You made an analogy that was refuted by cases before. I think the case about digital antiskips was the one that established that digital files are are different from the SR (which includes the performance), and thus different rules apply. An SR includes the PA, and thus all performances and derivatives in things like musical arrangement, lyrics, etc (all covered in more depth by other court cases). In your case, what law would cover it would be SR law. That is completely different than IP law. However, if I'm not mistaken, a software synthesizer would be covered by the same IP law as a software computer game.
I think I will leave the IP law to the lawyers. From what I've been reading, I would like to assume that most people are raging about how blizzard is an evil company trying to destroy something that kespa created. So how about we just stick to logic of the argument and not the fine letters or the laws.
That still doesn't change the fact that the current BW scene will be competing with SC2. No matter how much attention I acquire for the band I love, when I start giving out free concert in the same city at their planned tour singing their song. How much do you want to bet they are still going to sue me for it?
Ever heard of a cover band? Haha.
Ever heard of cease and desist order? Haha!!!!
Now that we are done with childish argument. Cover band for the most part do no make money off of the song in which they are covering. Furthermore, at any time when they do make money, the record company have every right to order them to stop doing so or risk heavy punishment. Not to mention KESPA is hardly a small no name band not making all that much money from the usage of blizzard property.
How don't they make money from what they're covering? That's EXACTLY what a cover band is: they cover another band's song for profit. Incidentally, it's 100% legal to play another band's song live for profit.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
It seems like most computer programs would not be counted as an art, and therefore by default a computer game would not be also unless it is specified to be some subset of computer programs. Thus the burden of proof would be on you to count it as not just a computer program, but something more/ different than the average computer program.
Softwares are a completely different thing than events. Kespa has to deal with broadcasting law, and performance laws for their respective country. So no, it wouldn't be the same laws that protect computer games.
And the VSTs and RTASs were mentioned because they dealt specifically with my example, and it was a question to further what was being talked about. If any law is close to Blizzard vs KeSPA, it would be laws dealing with those devices because they are programs used to create art and performances. Precedents from laws dealing with these programs (and others that satisfy this small niche of which I cannot think of) would be used to determine what would happen in the case of programs being used as elements to create art and performances. So since programs like these would be used to set the precedent they would have a lot to do with the case. And if you look at the precedent set by these programs, they do not give ownership rights to the creator of the program.
From this I can see why Kespa would have legal grounding in their actions. I mean, the court case could end up making computer games some special entity where special laws apply to it and such, but such a move doesn't seem like it has a precedent as far as I can tell.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
It seems like most computer programs would not be counted as an art, and therefore by default a computer game would not be also unless it is specified to be some subset of computer programs. Thus the burden of proof would be on you to count it as not just a computer program, but something more/ different than the average computer program.
Softwares are a completely different thing than events. Kespa has to deal with broadcasting law, and performance laws for their respective country. So no, it wouldn't be the same laws that protect computer games.
And the VSTs and RTASs were mentioned because they dealt specifically with my example, and it was a question to further what was being talked about. If any law is close to Blizzard vs KeSPA, it would be laws dealing with those devices because they are programs used to create art and performances. Precedents from laws dealing with these programs (and others that satisfy this small niche of which I cannot think of) would be used to determine what would happen in the case of programs being used as elements to create art and performances. So since programs like these would be used to set the precedent they would have a lot to do with the case. And if you look at the precedent set by these programs, they do not give ownership rights to the creator of the program.
Do you know anything about laws regarding the invention of sports/games outside of computers? If company X devises a new format for a sport (lets say indoor NFL with indoor rules and what not) which it popularises and owns the rights to, would others be allowed to broadcast that sport using the exact same rules and format?
Just from the top of my head, I would imagine that you can't just copy "Who wants to be a millionaire" and add your own questions to it while using the same set, format, rules, etc. Wouldn't this be more similar to Starcraft, as they are taking the format, the name, and everything else directly from the original product, but using it to create their own content?
Like I said, I know nothing about this, but it strikes me as being more similar to the current situation.
Do you know anything about laws regarding the invention of sports/games outside of computers? If company X devises a new format for a sport (lets say indoor NFL with indoor rules and what not) which it popularises and owns the rights to, would others be allowed to broadcast that sport using the exact same rules and format?
But if you organize this kind of football matches, you do not pay anything to the inventor. So in this case, you definitely have a problem, since the inventor's work is not appreciated with payment. Since there are no physical products to sell in this case, the inventor can only charge for broadcast rights.
For BW, people do pay for the game, the inventor's work is already appreciated with payment. Unless blizzard leave something in the agreement says that you can not organize and broadcast matches, there is no obvious problems here.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
It seems like most computer programs would not be counted as an art, and therefore by default a computer game would not be also unless it is specified to be some subset of computer programs. Thus the burden of proof would be on you to count it as not just a computer program, but something more/ different than the average computer program.
Softwares are a completely different thing than events. Kespa has to deal with broadcasting law, and performance laws for their respective country. So no, it wouldn't be the same laws that protect computer games.
And the VSTs and RTASs were mentioned because they dealt specifically with my example, and it was a question to further what was being talked about. If any law is close to Blizzard vs KeSPA, it would be laws dealing with those devices because they are programs used to create art and performances. Precedents from laws dealing with these programs (and others that satisfy this small niche of which I cannot think of) would be used to determine what would happen in the case of programs being used as elements to create art and performances. So since programs like these would be used to set the precedent they would have a lot to do with the case. And if you look at the precedent set by these programs, they do not give ownership rights to the creator of the program.
From this I can see why Kespa would have legal grounding in their actions. I mean, the court case could end up making computer games some special entity where special laws apply to it and such, but such a move doesn't seem like it has a precedent as far as I can tell.
Well consider you are trying to equate the replay that is created from SCBW as "art" is it not hard for me to argue that in fact SCBW is in itself "art"
i mean that is the argument you are trying to make? what is produced from the VST is essentially art is it not? it is not hard for me then to argue that if the replay is art then SCBW is too as they are essentially one and the same. its just that the replay is a copy of what happened beforehand and thus could be considered a reproduction of what already took place.
and lets not forget that SCBW was in fact created to play games on while these other programs were made with the fact in mind that they would be used to produce art and thus cannot reasonably expect to be payed licensing fees for what they created.
and i to can see that there is enough leeway in this argument where this needs to be decided in courts as it 100% depends on what rights SCBW has as a medium.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
It seems like most computer programs would not be counted as an art, and therefore by default a computer game would not be also unless it is specified to be some subset of computer programs. Thus the burden of proof would be on you to count it as not just a computer program, but something more/ different than the average computer program.
Softwares are a completely different thing than events. Kespa has to deal with broadcasting law, and performance laws for their respective country. So no, it wouldn't be the same laws that protect computer games.
And the VSTs and RTASs were mentioned because they dealt specifically with my example, and it was a question to further what was being talked about. If any law is close to Blizzard vs KeSPA, it would be laws dealing with those devices because they are programs used to create art and performances. Precedents from laws dealing with these programs (and others that satisfy this small niche of which I cannot think of) would be used to determine what would happen in the case of programs being used as elements to create art and performances. So since programs like these would be used to set the precedent they would have a lot to do with the case. And if you look at the precedent set by these programs, they do not give ownership rights to the creator of the program.
Do you know anything about laws regarding the invention of sports/games outside of computers? If company X devises a new format for a sport (lets say indoor NFL with indoor rules and what not) which it popularises and owns the rights to, would others be allowed to broadcast that sport using the exact same rules and format?
Just from the top of my head, I would imagine that you can't just copy "Who wants to be a millionaire" and add your own questions to it while using the same set, format, rules, etc. Wouldn't this be more similar to Starcraft, as they are taking the format, the name, and everything else directly from the original product, but using it to create their own content?
Like I said, I know nothing about this, but it strikes me as being more similar to the current situation.
you're argument is not valad as Sudden Attack is a legal copy of Counter strike, sorry
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
It seems like most computer programs would not be counted as an art, and therefore by default a computer game would not be also unless it is specified to be some subset of computer programs. Thus the burden of proof would be on you to count it as not just a computer program, but something more/ different than the average computer program.
Softwares are a completely different thing than events. Kespa has to deal with broadcasting law, and performance laws for their respective country. So no, it wouldn't be the same laws that protect computer games.
And the VSTs and RTASs were mentioned because they dealt specifically with my example, and it was a question to further what was being talked about. If any law is close to Blizzard vs KeSPA, it would be laws dealing with those devices because they are programs used to create art and performances. Precedents from laws dealing with these programs (and others that satisfy this small niche of which I cannot think of) would be used to determine what would happen in the case of programs being used as elements to create art and performances. So since programs like these would be used to set the precedent they would have a lot to do with the case. And if you look at the precedent set by these programs, they do not give ownership rights to the creator of the program.
Do you know anything about laws regarding the invention of sports/games outside of computers? If company X devises a new format for a sport (lets say indoor NFL with indoor rules and what not) which it popularises and owns the rights to, would others be allowed to broadcast that sport using the exact same rules and format?
Just from the top of my head, I would imagine that you can't just copy "Who wants to be a millionaire" and add your own questions to it while using the same set, format, rules, etc. Wouldn't this be more similar to Starcraft, as they are taking the format, the name, and everything else directly from the original product, but using it to create their own content?
Like I said, I know nothing about this, but it strikes me as being more similar to the current situation.
You do have a point there. Most of the law I know deals with software and programs, then a dabble into music law. The closest real example to your NFL example I could think of is actually the AFL for arena football. Or how the NCAA also has football. But that case doesn't work because the NFL doesn't own "the game", so it turns out differently.
But what is intriguing is the "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" example. I don't know what would happen if a show decided to rip off its format and stuff. Would that be more similar of a comparison to Starcraft than programs used for performances that are not games (like software instruments)? I think it would be counted as different. I mean, the show would be counted as a performing art, and likewise you can say that the broadcast and Esports side of Starcraft would be a performing art. Usually that has different copyrights than the original. However, in some parts of copyright law (music especially), when you copyright the tangible product (like the sound recording), the performing arts part of it is also copyrighted (and not vice versa, ie you can copyright the performing art without holding the copyright to the recording). If it's the case for computer games that by copyrighting the product (the algorithms) the performance of such algorithms are copyrighted, then Kespa would lose. However, I don't know if this is the case. Like I said, with software instruments the performance is not copyrighted. But there is something about the case you bring up that feels like it should be the same, so there probably is another way to analyze the analogy between the two.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
What national or international court case describes computer games as both an art or a device than can be used to create an art? Why would VSTs and RTASs not count as art themselves (Especially if you're going to talk about the artwork that is within the program)?
okay well im not aware yet i will research this topic and reply afte rim done.
what court case denies computer games to be considered as art tho?
do you deny computer games are a product in themselves and thus are protected by the same laws that you say protects KeSPA and their actions?
Edit: after looking into things it seems VST and RTAS are just programs used to create audio and completely have nothing to do with Blizzard vs KeSPA except to confuse people.
It seems like most computer programs would not be counted as an art, and therefore by default a computer game would not be also unless it is specified to be some subset of computer programs. Thus the burden of proof would be on you to count it as not just a computer program, but something more/ different than the average computer program.
Softwares are a completely different thing than events. Kespa has to deal with broadcasting law, and performance laws for their respective country. So no, it wouldn't be the same laws that protect computer games.
And the VSTs and RTASs were mentioned because they dealt specifically with my example, and it was a question to further what was being talked about. If any law is close to Blizzard vs KeSPA, it would be laws dealing with those devices because they are programs used to create art and performances. Precedents from laws dealing with these programs (and others that satisfy this small niche of which I cannot think of) would be used to determine what would happen in the case of programs being used as elements to create art and performances. So since programs like these would be used to set the precedent they would have a lot to do with the case. And if you look at the precedent set by these programs, they do not give ownership rights to the creator of the program.
Do you know anything about laws regarding the invention of sports/games outside of computers? If company X devises a new format for a sport (lets say indoor NFL with indoor rules and what not) which it popularises and owns the rights to, would others be allowed to broadcast that sport using the exact same rules and format?
Just from the top of my head, I would imagine that you can't just copy "Who wants to be a millionaire" and add your own questions to it while using the same set, format, rules, etc. Wouldn't this be more similar to Starcraft, as they are taking the format, the name, and everything else directly from the original product, but using it to create their own content?
Like I said, I know nothing about this, but it strikes me as being more similar to the current situation.
You do have a point there. Most of the law I know deals with software and programs, then a dabble into music law. The closest real example to your NFL example I could think of is actually the AFL for arena football. Or how the NCAA also has football. But that case doesn't work because the NFL doesn't own "the game", so it turns out differently.
But what is intriguing is the "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" example. I don't know what would happen if a show decided to rip off its format and stuff. Would that be more similar of a comparison to Starcraft than programs used for performances that are not games (like software instruments)? I think it would be counted as different. I mean, the show would be counted as a performing art, and likewise you can say that the broadcast and Esports side of Starcraft would be a performing art. Usually that has different copyrights than the original. However, in some parts of copyright law (music especially), when you copyright the tangible product (like the sound recording), the performing arts part of it is also copyrighted (and not vice versa, ie you can copyright the performing art without holding the copyright to the recording). If it's the case for computer games that by copyrighting the product (the algorithms) the performance of such algorithms are copyrighted, then Kespa would lose. However, I don't know if this is the case. Like I said, with software instruments the performance is not copyrighted. But there is something about the case you bring up that feels like it should be the same, so there probably is another way to analyze the analogy between the two.
It's interesting that you bring up AFL because that is exactly what I was thinking about but I couldn't remember it's name. Rather than asking if the AFL owes the NFL, I'm wondering if a new sport broadcasting a game that 100% exactly copies the AFL (to the last letter in the rules and format) would be legal or not. For example, if a sport called AFL2 would be allowed to broadcast in direct competition with the AFL.
The problem with this whole thing is that it's way more complicated than it appears, and I don't think there's anyone that can give a hard and fast answer for what will happen if this goes to court. That's also the problem that both KeSPA and Blizzard are faced with. If either one was clearly in the right, they would have more bargaining power and the other one would need to make concessions. However, because it's as unclear as it is, both companies are standing their ground which could lead to a very uncomfortable legal battle.
In the end both companies are making the best choices they can, given their information. Gretech made an investment and it needs to get some of that investment back from KeSPA, and making the demands it currently is is probably it's best way. On the other hand, KeSPA doesn't believe that Gretech's investment is legally enforceable, so it has no reason to make concessions. Can't really blame either party for their decisions, we must just hope it doesn't end up hurting Esports too much.
On September 07 2010 13:24 So no fek wrote: If Gretech kills proleague I swear I will never watch another Gom event.
Word, for me KESPA were always a bunch of idiots because of some of their decisions. but for this time I'm siding with them and BroodWar legacy.
just ask for a sc2 banner during PL broadcasts.. bw will die eventually and sc2 will remplace it if gretech avoid to appear as greedy bastards (hint, they are failing)
As long as the PL and MSL starts back up I'll be happy. With any hope Kespa will come out on top so we won't be having anymore PL interruptions any time soon.
On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to.
You are really contradicting yourself.
A. You first said: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous.
B. Then you said: If I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard.They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments...etc
But things in B is exactly what you deemed ridiculous in A - since I assume you were not there in the meetings and you based it all on "snippets of biased information" you've gotten from the internet?
@Daigomi
You realise KESPA agreed to pay royalties everytime? KESPA vs Gretech AND Kespa vs Blizzard
I find this issue fascinating because of the moral issues involved. Deciding what's "fair" in this case is rather messy. Everybody's trying to create something that people like and everybody's trying to make money with that in the process (for equally selfish reasons when you break down everyone's interests to what's most basic). The question of how much should go to who from what source is infinitely debatable and any system that could forge an approximate solution would be a worthwhile system to define. Apart from that, however, I also wish people weren't so quick to strangle away profits from everybody else (and could be more thoughtful).
First things first, "IP rights" in any situation are ALWAYS impossible to define perfectly. Obviously the truth of this particular matter can't come down cleanly in defense of just one side or the other. For instance, it's true that you can't fund competitive StarCraft without being in Blizzard's debt. The reason is because competitive StarCraft needs a game and a worldwide framework that Blizzard created and built (otherwise, if that's not the case, why don't competition organizers simply make up their own games to support their professions and move away from the games they currently play?). However, that point made, it's also equally true that Blizzard should have no claim to any profits that come from the hard work of competition organizers and promoters when Blizzard had nothing to do with such things (and have no right to claim they should have had something to do with it at the beginning).
In a perfect world, he or she who contributes anything to a given project (and how much that contribution will earn for that project in the future) would be undeniably self-evident to everybody. None of us would be able to deny who deserves how much payment for what actions and we'd all feel happy and content about everything. In such a world, Kespa would pay Blizzard the exact amount it owes without needing "negotiations." From there, we'd also know how much Blizzard owes for the work of deserving people at Games Workshop and other organizations that they, themselves, have ever used to "create" anything in their games (and so on and for absolutely everybody in the world alive or dead). (YEESH, what a BORING world that would be . . . it would take forever for us to pay anybody for doing anything.)
In the end, however, beyond these interesting intellectual questions, I can't say I care too much about who's going to get what. In a world where real artists and real innovators are screwed over every day, I'm not going to cry too much if Blizzard, Kespa, or whoever doesn't get EXACTLY what they think they're owed. Also, I certainly won't pretend that the justice systems of this world will generally reward those who are most deserving (IP law is a rather undefined mess). After everything, my only personal concern is to see everything that I enjoy continue and everyone who has ever contributed to what I enjoy being reimbursed with at least some form of profit.
From my limited, silly perspective, I would decree that Blizzard should receive a third of all profits earned when their game is directly displayed or otherwise indispensable to a competition's profitability. I choose that percentage because I think the competition organizers are contributing most of the work in that instance. Unfortunately that's just one impatient judgement from one limited perspective and no two people ever value anything exactly the same. Oh well, I tried.
The problem with this whole thing is that it's way more complicated than it appears, and I don't think there's anyone that can give a hard and fast answer for what will happen if this goes to court. That's also the problem that both KeSPA and Blizzard are faced with. If either one was clearly in the right, they would have more bargaining power and the other one would need to make concessions. However, because it's as unclear as it is, both companies are standing their ground which could lead to a very uncomfortable legal battle.
In the end both companies are making the best choices they can, given their information. Gretech made an investment and it needs to get some of that investment back from KeSPA, and making the demands it currently is is probably it's best way. On the other hand, KeSPA doesn't believe that Gretech's investment is legally enforceable, so it has no reason to make concessions. Can't really blame either party for their decisions, we must just hope it doesn't end up hurting Esports too much.
That's the point. Right there. I think I may know what direction the case could take, but really it's a complicated issue. In fact, the lawyers on both sides probably think they would win the court case, and that's why they both have no reason to make concessions. Anyone reading these posts going "gee, obviously Blizzard would win" or something should think twice. I'm ready to pull you into the argument from either side. The big thing is, neither side knows who would win, but I bet you both think they would. With that kind of a mindset, I don't know if it's possible to settle without a court case. They just need a third party to basically "tell them how it is".
It's like two kids on the playground arguing over if they stepped out of bounds. The kid with the ball is saying no and the kid without the ball is saying yes. Obviously they're going to do that and think that, they are just helping themselves. There is always the chance that someone calms down and says, "fine, just go with it", but normally it has to end with the teacher coming over and saying how to move on. Sad to say it, I think they need a court case to move on, and that case will be one of the biggest cases in Esports.
I seriously cannot believe what I read in this thread. People saying "I'm for Kespa / I'm for gretech / if it goes to court kespa will win / gretech will lose" etc. Where do you all think you are going, by taking sides with either parties ? In this whole mess, eventually the biggest loser will be the fan. Brood War or Sc2 fan, whatever, the eSports fan is hurting right now, so before choosing sides, before spitting on sc2 or burrowing bw, please start thinking by yourself, don't fall into the trap of being a zombie cash cow, rooting for multimillion companies, as if it was a FvJ game. At the moment I feel like this whole case is putting esports fans against each other. People need to realise that this is not the right way to go.
SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Seriously, I may seem rather uninformed but which kind of sheep would follow this kind of maneuver? I'm used to see that sort of unsophisticated, cheap and awkward tactics work with success in politics, but in this case it's going too far.
ps: and because it seems that insulting people who don't agree is a new trend, I'll just say that you are all assholes as well as morons, Blizzard doesn't care about anything, KeSPA is a money-making machine. Sc2 is shitty and too easy, and I hate it because it's one month old.
On September 08 2010 13:54 AlBundy wrote: I seriously cannot believe what I read in this thread. People saying "I'm for Kespa / I'm for gretech / if it goes to court kespa will win / gretech will lose" etc. Where do you all think you are going, by taking sides with either parties ? In this whole mess, eventually the biggest loser will be the fan. Brood War or Sc2 fan, whatever, the eSports fan is hurting right now, so before choosing sides, before spitting on sc2 or burrowing bw, please start thinking by yourself, don't fall into the trap of being a zombie cash cow, rooting for multimillion companies, as if it was a FvJ game. At the moment I feel like this whole case is putting esports fans against each other. People need to realise that this is not the right way to go.
SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Seriously, I may seem rather uninformed but which kind of sheep would follow this kind of maneuver? I'm used to see that sort of unsophisticated, cheap and awkward tactics work with success in politics, but in this case it's going too far.
ps: and because it seems that insulting people who don't agree is a new trend, I'll just say that you are all assholes as well as morons, Blizzard doesn't care about anything, KeSPA is a money-making machine. Sc2 is shitty and too easy, and I hate it because it's one month old.
Someone should sell "Team Kespa / Team Gretech shirts.
Will Kespa prevail with its risky ignore-the-enemy economy style, or will it be overcome by Gretech's low econ turtle into all-in push build??? Find out soon!
Map: Courtroom 5 Time: TBA Live casting by the TL community!
On September 08 2010 13:54 AlBundy wrote: I seriously cannot believe what I read in this thread. People saying "I'm for Kespa / I'm for gretech / if it goes to court kespa will win / gretech will lose" etc. Where do you all think you are going, by taking sides with either parties ? In this whole mess, eventually the biggest loser will be the fan. Brood War or Sc2 fan, whatever, the eSports fan is hurting right now, so before choosing sides, before spitting on sc2 or burrowing bw, please start thinking by yourself, don't fall into the trap of being a zombie cash cow, rooting for multimillion companies, as if it was a FvJ game. At the moment I feel like this whole case is putting esports fans against each other. People need to realise that this is not the right way to go.
Seriously, I may seem rather uninformed but which kind of sheep would follow this kind of maneuver? I'm used to see that sort of unsophisticated, cheap and awkward tactics work with success in politics, but in this case it's going too far.
ps: and because it seems that insulting people who don't agree is a new trend, I'll just say that you are all assholes as well as morons, Blizzard doesn't care about anything, KeSPA is a money-making machine. Sc2 is shitty and too easy, and I hate it because it's one month old.
Don't be like an angle, and tell people what to do, especially when you are not informed with the issue.
E-sports is not just games In Korea. It involves billion dollar companies, 12 years kids and their parents, and politicians. How do you think BW got developed in Korea as E-sports 10 years ago? That's government's strategy.
If you want to discuss this issue, you have to talk about greedy company machines. Neutral stand is not ideal, since there will only be one winner at last. As fans, we have to choose the lesser evil here. Nobody is saying KeSPA/Blizzard is perfect.
On September 08 2010 13:54 AlBundy wrote: I seriously cannot believe what I read in this thread. People saying "I'm for Kespa / I'm for gretech / if it goes to court kespa will win / gretech will lose" etc. Where do you all think you are going, by taking sides with either parties ? In this whole mess, eventually the biggest loser will be the fan. Brood War or Sc2 fan, whatever, the eSports fan is hurting right now, so before choosing sides, before spitting on sc2 or burrowing bw, please start thinking by yourself, don't fall into the trap of being a zombie cash cow, rooting for multimillion companies, as if it was a FvJ game. At the moment I feel like this whole case is putting esports fans against each other. People need to realise that this is not the right way to go.
SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
Seriously, I may seem rather uninformed but which kind of sheep would follow this kind of maneuver? I'm used to see that sort of unsophisticated, cheap and awkward tactics work with success in politics, but in this case it's going too far.
ps: and because it seems that insulting people who don't agree is a new trend, I'll just say that you are all assholes as well as morons, Blizzard doesn't care about anything, KeSPA is a money-making machine. Sc2 is shitty and too easy, and I hate it because it's one month old.
As a BW fan, I'm for KeSPA and you should be too. Have you not read the news? Let me get you up to speed, Gretech is for killing BW.
SKT, KT, STX etc made the right move to stand up against Blizzard. SC2 ain't shitty or anything, but it doesn't need to be shoved down people's throats by forcing BW off air.
PS. KeSPA is a non-profit organization, so if they do make money, you know that it'll be reinvested towards the progaming scene. That is all.
Really glad to hear Kespa is fighting back and isnt gonna take shit from gretech/blizz. While I do feel kespa does owe gretech/blizz something for using sc intellectual prop., gretech is being very unreasonable with their demands. i hope bw proleagues and starleagues never die.. they are a ton more interesting to watch than any sc2 event thus far - and ive watched most of them.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
QFT
Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this
This. And furthermore, have you guys ever thought of what would happen if BW dies? The day SC3/WC4 comes out, I can promise you that SC2 is going get the same treatment (assuming there is a proscene alive by that time).
You may selfishly want BW to die, fine. BW may actually die from Blizzard's greed, fine. But don't go around thinking that SC2 isn't going to get its plug pulled one day too.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
QFT
Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this
This. And furthermore, have you guys ever thought of what would happen if BW dies? The day SC3/WC4 comes out, I can promise you that SC2 is going get the same treatment (assuming there is a proscene alive by that time).
You may selfishly want BW to die, fine. BW may actually die from Blizzard's greed, fine. But don't go around thinking that SC2 isn't going to get its plug pulled one day too.
Warcraft 4 is never coming out. Warcraft is an MMO-only series now. And I'm pretty sure there won't be a SC3
On September 08 2010 19:24 PanzerDragoon wrote: So KESPA kills the GOM Classic, and when GOM pays them back, they cry foul, and all you people back them up?
Short memories you all must have.
Yes because GOM classic is just as important as Shinhan Proleague, right?
And you must be pretty naive if you think ACTIVISION won't be making a SC3.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
QFT
Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this
This. And furthermore, have you guys ever thought of what would happen if BW dies? The day SC3/WC4 comes out, I can promise you that SC2 is going get the same treatment (assuming there is a proscene alive by that time).
You may selfishly want BW to die, fine. BW may actually die from Blizzard's greed, fine. But don't go around thinking that SC2 isn't going to get its plug pulled one day too.
Warcraft 4 is never coming out. Warcraft is an MMO-only series now. And I'm pretty sure there won't be a SC3
And the majority of us are pretty sure you're wrong.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
QFT
Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this
This. And furthermore, have you guys ever thought of what would happen if BW dies? The day SC3/WC4 comes out, I can promise you that SC2 is going get the same treatment (assuming there is a proscene alive by that time).
You may selfishly want BW to die, fine. BW may actually die from Blizzard's greed, fine. But don't go around thinking that SC2 isn't going to get its plug pulled one day too.
Warcraft 4 is never coming out. Warcraft is an MMO-only series now. And I'm pretty sure there won't be a SC3
' Where there's money, there's a way. Are you a bit naive? Same thing they said about the terminator series and we still got a horrible nr.3 and even more horrible nr.4
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
QFT
Blind SC2 idiots, take your time and read this
This. And furthermore, have you guys ever thought of what would happen if BW dies? The day SC3/WC4 comes out, I can promise you that SC2 is going get the same treatment (assuming there is a proscene alive by that time).
You may selfishly want BW to die, fine. BW may actually die from Blizzard's greed, fine. But don't go around thinking that SC2 isn't going to get its plug pulled one day too.
Warcraft 4 is never coming out. Warcraft is an MMO-only series now. And I'm pretty sure there won't be a SC3
Warcraft4 was already inofficial announced...You should learn a bit more about the Kespa history seems like your pretty uneducated about the whole situation...
On September 08 2010 07:52 HeaDStrong wrote: So with every report it becomes more apparent where Blizzard's loyalties lie and it's profits. (not much surprise there).
Do you want to get involved with sc2 esports run by blizzard? Then you must be quite dumb, let me explain...
Blizzard has proven already that they lose interest in their products quite quickly. They shut down their official broodwar ladder and let iccup take over simply because they didn't care. (not much profits left to be squeezed out) And now they actively try to even get one of their older products out of the way. If you ask me that is not the kind of image that makes you look like a trustworthy long-term partner.
No one can give young aspiring gamers wanting to become progamers a guarantee about their future careers, even with the broodwar scene, we have seen only very few players age and transition out of being a progamer. The branch is simply to young. However, Blizzards actions are just so ridiculous that even the most optimistic people should see that the future looks grim.
Be a sc2 progamer and wait for sc3 or w4 to come out and all you'd have achieved will be taken away from you and you will become nothing more that simply a barrier in blizzards way of making more money.
This is far-fetched, grim and very much anti-blizzard. However, I say, if not evidence, there are a lot of hints that this might be true.
Just ask yourself is blizzard acting in a way that makes you want to trust them on a long term?
Everyone seemed to miss this even though its a page-topper, so i would just like to give it a gentle bump here. This and how Gretech is declaring that it wishes to do away with the Proteam format leaves one without any hope that Gretech/Blizzard has any intention (or capability) to develop e-Sport, in my opinion.
@ PanzerDragoon
Honestly as far as i can tell.. There is only ONE reason as to why Blizz wont make SC3.. That is if this SC2 fail so horribly that theres no hope of them making money with a new release.. So the only chance that your SC2 scene will last eternally (without getting ruthlessly plugged by Blizz) is when its an utter failure.
Where has warcraft4 been unofficially announced, I haven't heard anything like that whatsoever. I have heard interviews where they say another warcraft rts is possible somewhere down the line, but obviously they would never flat out rule out any possibility for a future game.
As far as I understand blizzard likes what they did here, they turned warcraft into their mmorpg franchise, diablo is their morpg franchise, and starcraft is their rts franchise.
They are making a new game that will be mmofps which will be a whole new universe outside of warcraft/diablo/starcraft.
But it's really too early to be talking about future blizzard rts games when they just released one 1.5 months ago.
On September 08 2010 19:24 PanzerDragoon wrote: So KESPA kills the GOM Classic, and when GOM pays them back, they cry foul, and all you people back them up?
Short memories you all must have.
First of all, KeSPA let them proceed with two seasons even though they ignored KeSPA (it's like a major football tournament trying to ignore FIFA or their respective national association). It wasn't until they officially sided with Blizzard.
Second of all, I don't see how trying to destroy the whole foundation of BW esports is in any way comparable to several teams withdrawing from a crappy tournament with no prestige nor recognition (haven't heard of GSL being broadcasted on the TV).
On September 08 2010 21:58 robertdinh wrote: Where has warcraft4 been unofficially announced, I haven't heard anything like that whatsoever. I have heard interviews where they say another warcraft rts is possible somewhere down the line, but obviously they would never flat out rule out any possibility for a future game.
As far as I understand blizzard likes what they did here, they turned warcraft into their mmorpg franchise, diablo is their morpg franchise, and starcraft is their rts franchise.
They are making a new game that will be mmofps which will be a whole new universe outside of warcraft/diablo/starcraft.
But it's really too early to be talking about future blizzard rts games when they just released one 1.5 months ago.
WC4 is likely already in the early design phase. In one interview couple years ago some Blizzard member accidentally said something like "that's also how it's going to work in WarCraft 4" when asked about some campaign related thing in SC2.
On September 08 2010 22:28 maybenexttime wrote: WC4 is likely already in the early design phase. In one interview couple years ago some Blizzard member accidentally said something like "that's also how it's going to work in WarCraft 4" when asked about some campaign related thing in SC2.
Source?
I found this
he way that we develop things, each time a development team becomes available, because they're done with creating the games that they've been doing, they have a lot of say over what their next game is. So what it would take is for one of our teams to decide that they want to make Warcraft RTS and of course, there'll be some talk about doing that and I'm sure after StarCraft 2 ships, it will be one the ideas on the table for that team to do, but that's pretty far off in the future and it would really be determined by a combination of the dev team and the company leadership.
“Warcraft 4 is certainly something that gets talked about on a pretty regular basis,” Brack explained, but his next revelation throws a bit of a spanner in the works – the team that worked on Warcraft 3 is actually the same team that is working on StarCraft 2! “While I think we’re all excited about a Warcraft 4, in concept, they’re going to finish up StarCraft 2, and then they’re going to work on the two StarCraft expansions that we’ve announced, so they’re booked for the next few years.”
(He does go on to explain that there’s nothing set in stone that says that Warcraft 4 has to be created by the same people who made Warcraft 3, but “it does sort of make sense” for it to be done that way. Never say never, I guess.)
On September 08 2010 22:28 maybenexttime wrote: WC4 is likely already in the early design phase. In one interview couple years ago some Blizzard member accidentally said something like "that's also how it's going to work in WarCraft 4" when asked about some campaign related thing in SC2.
he way that we develop things, each time a development team becomes available, because they're done with creating the games that they've been doing, they have a lot of say over what their next game is. So what it would take is for one of our teams to decide that they want to make Warcraft RTS and of course, there'll be some talk about doing that and I'm sure after StarCraft 2 ships, it will be one the ideas on the table for that team to do, but that's pretty far off in the future and it would really be determined by a combination of the dev team and the company leadership.
“Warcraft 4 is certainly something that gets talked about on a pretty regular basis,” Brack explained, but his next revelation throws a bit of a spanner in the works – the team that worked on Warcraft 3 is actually the same team that is working on StarCraft 2! “While I think we’re all excited about a Warcraft 4, in concept, they’re going to finish up StarCraft 2, and then they’re going to work on the two StarCraft expansions that we’ve announced, so they’re booked for the next few years.”
(He does go on to explain that there’s nothing set in stone that says that Warcraft 4 has to be created by the same people who made Warcraft 3, but “it does sort of make sense” for it to be done that way. Never say never, I guess.)
"The big news from BlizzCon yesterday was that Starcraft II would be released as three separate titles, but an interesting piece of information was let slip during a Starcraft panel.
According to several sources working from BlizzCon transcripts, during one of the development panels for Starcraft II one of the panelists made mention of Wacraft IV.
While discussing the unorthodox Starcraft II release plans, executive vice-president of game design for Blizzard, Rob Pardo let slip that the Warcraft IV campaigns would be released in the same episodic manner."
On September 08 2010 22:28 maybenexttime wrote: WC4 is likely already in the early design phase. In one interview couple years ago some Blizzard member accidentally said something like "that's also how it's going to work in WarCraft 4" when asked about some campaign related thing in SC2.
Source?
I found this
he way that we develop things, each time a development team becomes available, because they're done with creating the games that they've been doing, they have a lot of say over what their next game is. So what it would take is for one of our teams to decide that they want to make Warcraft RTS and of course, there'll be some talk about doing that and I'm sure after StarCraft 2 ships, it will be one the ideas on the table for that team to do, but that's pretty far off in the future and it would really be determined by a combination of the dev team and the company leadership.
“Warcraft 4 is certainly something that gets talked about on a pretty regular basis,” Brack explained, but his next revelation throws a bit of a spanner in the works – the team that worked on Warcraft 3 is actually the same team that is working on StarCraft 2! “While I think we’re all excited about a Warcraft 4, in concept, they’re going to finish up StarCraft 2, and then they’re going to work on the two StarCraft expansions that we’ve announced, so they’re booked for the next few years.”
(He does go on to explain that there’s nothing set in stone that says that Warcraft 4 has to be created by the same people who made Warcraft 3, but “it does sort of make sense” for it to be done that way. Never say never, I guess.)
"The big news from BlizzCon yesterday was that Starcraft II would be released as three separate titles, but an interesting piece of information was let slip during a Starcraft panel.
According to several sources working from BlizzCon transcripts, during one of the development panels for Starcraft II one of the panelists made mention of Wacraft IV.
While discussing the unorthodox Starcraft II release plans, executive vice-president of game design for Blizzard, Rob Pardo let slip that the Warcraft IV campaigns would be released in the same episodic manner."
Some of his sources are more recent than yours.
What we know according to those articles is that the war3 team is working on sc2 and it's campaigns. We know that warcraft4 is on the table as a future project, but there is no indication that a warcraft4 project has actually been given any greenlight.
During Blizzcon Rob pardo said wc4 will be released in same episodic manner as starcraft2. Of course this is not an official statement.
We know that warcraft4 is on the table as a future project, but there is no indication that a warcraft4 project has actually been given any greenlight.
True. But it surely is coming sooner or later it's a no brainer for me But i guess not before sc2 expansions are finished. At the moment they are probably doing other things.
On September 08 2010 00:23 Murderotica wrote: To: Every poster who makes the statement that "newer is better" and therefore BW scene as a whole should just step down and take shitty time slots and less money so that SC2 can thrive.
First of all let me tell you that you are a selfish asshole who can't see past his own computer screen. You got SC2 and you think "omg bst gaem evr" so naturally you want the game you enjoy at the moment to be the most successful. Well guess what, your opinion of this game is shared by some people, but many many others think that SC2 is not better than BW (at least not yet) and therefore should not be usurping the already mature and advanced BW scene of the limelight. Newer is NOT better, and if not just because of the games themselves, then because SC2 has not had the time to develop to a mature and competitive game on the level of BW. So why should we force this game into primetime slots and drop money on it like no tomorrow, when the product is not as entertaining as BW because of the dilution of the skill base and the currently low skill ceiling? "Because we hope to achieve what BW has achieved someday, and doing these things makes this day come sooner," you might say. All I have to say is that you're wrong. BW came from dirt to royalty over years of development. As the game progressed in terms of average skill and entertainment values, sponsors naturally approached the scene and that is where the money should come from - investing in a product that has already proven its worth in a competitive setting. There are too many things wrong with SC2 and the people who are trying to promote it right now to safely say that it will succeed as a prosport. Trying to cut off the head of BW so that SC2 can thrive is just one glaring example of how WEAK even the people trying to promote the game think it is (or the scene/potential entertainment value is).
Take your slightly shittier timeslot, simply because BW has had this time slot and why be a dick like your company and try to take it away simply on the grounds that your game came out more recently. Well you know what, I can't watch SC2 games with the same intensity that I can watch BW games, so fuck you for thinking that this move is okay. I want my BW scene alive and intact - people are already moving to SC2 if they want to. And you know what? If your game is really so great, it will rise in ratings and eventually it will have the swing to knock out BW, maybe. Until then, stop supporting this movement to kill the only true Esport in the world. Assholes.
yay! another proleague season means more SCBW games. im happy. although i dont see why this whole situation can't be solve quicker. SCII is new, so they should let the more established and popular Brood War take the prime time slots
I hate this situation because I'm a deep fan of both games. I might watch SC2 games slightly more frequently these days, but Brood War at the top level is just as entertaining as it's always been. I don't understand why these companies are trying to milk us dry. Gretech and Blizzard obviously see SC2 as a huge source of revenue compared to BW, so it makes sense that they don't give a shit about BW anymore. But that sucks, because BW is an awesome game that still has a huge following. The top BW players are the only people in the world who can really claim the title of "best video game players" and that will probably never change, considering the skill ceilings of the new games that are coming out. I feel really bad for the BW pros, they are getting the shit end of the deal either way, and all they want to do is play their favorite game at the highest level and not starve to death.
On the other hand, SC2 is really fun to play. The only reason I watch SC2 games these days is to get ideas and strategies to implement in my own play. This is the exact same reason why professional BW was so amazing to me back in 2003-2004, when I first learned about it. However, I don't play BW anymore and I still find it entertaining as hell to watch. I don't know if I'll be able to say the same about SC2 in 5 or 10 years, but I know for a fact I'll still be able to say that about BW. What really pisses me off, though, is how Gretech is charging us, non-koreans, for the GSL vods. That's completely contrary to everything I've ever known about e-sports, it hurts the fans and the scene in general for some lousy tournament that there will apparently be dozens of in the future. And moreover, the philosophy behind it is completely skewed and unsustainable to foster real SC2 professionals. Sure, first place gets $85,000, and is able to eat for the next year and then some, but the rest of the players who might be almost just as good get completely shafted and have to worry about how to feed themselves until the next tournament, the next opportunity at greatness and monetary peace-of-mind. Meanwhile we get charged $20 just to watch while almost none of our money goes to the underdogs. If this was a team league, maybe I'd help support it. If it was a team league, where professional-quality players could practice together all day every day and not have to worry about basic necessities, it would be worth the money. But as it stands right now Gretech is fucking the BW pros, the potential SC2 pros, and the fans all at once. KeSPA isn't helping at all either, but at least I understand where they're coming from.
I just hope the proleague continues and Blizzard forgets about Korea and focuses on fostering high-end competitions in north america for once, and invites top players from around the world to participate. Only then will we (non-koreans) get the best of both worlds.
JUST like the brawl-melee effect, the top pros finally backing up the game they've dedicated their blood and tears to.
i never thought that it would become so big that it would be large corporations warring with each other.
it seems to me blizzard is trying to shut down the korean starcraft scene, because it can open people's eye that bw is a clearly a better game, and it will hurt blizzard's plot to make sc2 a worldwide e-sportmoney
Am I the only one who.... I mean, doesn't care of the video game changes every few years?
I understand people being mad BW is dying, and I respect that, but I've never played any RTS more then a few years. For people saying "Yeah, and in 5 years, SC2 will be replaced with something else!!! ... So? New games get traded in and out of things like Evo and WCG all the time without universes exploding.
I know we all want Video games to be like, Soccer, and not be replaced every few years, but I don't think it's realistic.
blizzard left bw and didn't care about it, and koreans picked it up and made it grow into the greatest e-sport in history. all of a sudden blizzard wants to pick up that baby and claim it for their own, seeing how successful it can be in terms of making money. the decision should be left with the baby, or rather bw, whether it wants to be with kespa or blizzard. the answer is obvious, since korean progaming is the heart and soul of true broodwar players, therefore korean progaming IS broodwar
On September 09 2010 07:42 Nephrahim wrote: Am I the only one who.... I mean, doesn't care of the video game changes every few years?
I understand people being mad BW is dying, and I respect that, but I've never played any RTS more then a few years. For people saying "Yeah, and in 5 years, SC2 will be replaced with something else!!! ... So? New games get traded in and out of things like Evo and WCG all the time without universes exploding.
I know we all want Video games to be like, Soccer, and not be replaced every few years, but I don't think it's realistic.
Well there is a big difference between letting something run its course and trying to murder something.
On September 09 2010 07:54 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: it's kind of like parents abandoning a baby.
blizzard left bw and didn't care about it, and koreans picked it up and made it grow into the greatest e-sport in history. all of a sudden blizzard wants to pick up that baby and claim it for their own, seeing how successful it can be in terms of making money. the decision should be left with the baby, or rather bw, whether it wants to be with kespa or blizzard. the answer is obvious, since korean progaming is the heart and soul of true broodwar players, therefore korean progaming IS broodwar
Well you got something wrong, they want to pick up that baby and then shake it several times, then put it in a cage.
It would be like the old days watching smallville, then supernatural back to back. It was a good night for me.
But SC1 has OSL/MSL/PL while SC2 only has GSL? I imagine GSL has a lot of games to do, and should be similar to the amount of games from all three BW leagues? I don't exactly know whats what, and cant really say much about it... but I just hope everything pans out alright. I just wish Kespa is more willing to accommodate more but this does not seem to be the case. Surely those two can work things out and everything will be fine!
On September 09 2010 08:04 Lokian wrote: Anyone know the specifics of the time-slot issue?
It would be cool if SC1/SC2 were back to back!
It would be like the old days watching smallville, then supernatural back to back. It was a good night for me.
But SC1 has OSL/MSL/PL while SC2 only has GSL? I imagine GSL has a lot of games to do, and should be similar to the amount of games from all three BW leagues? I don't exactly know whats what, and cant really say much about it... but I just hope everything pans out alright. I just wish Kespa is more willing to accommodate more but this does not seem to be the case. Surely those two can work things out and everything will be fine!
Apparently GSL is running every month, so I don't think that there will be any lack of games (we're barely halfway through Ro64 and it's been a week). I agree that a version of PL would be nice, but it's not really as necessary as some people seem to think; other individual sports work just fine without teams. There just has to be more money thrown in. Honestly I think that if Gretech/Blizzard just chill for a month or two and see what happens and then decide on a course of action everything would go more slowly. They seem to be desperate, which really shouldn't be the case; Blizzard should support their partner as much as they need if they want this to work.
loling at all the 'progaming IS BW'; obviously people want to change that, that's why this whole thing is happening. It's just a matter of degree, some people think Gretech went too far and I can see why, going too far yourselves isn't going to change anything.
Why are people declaring the battle already over in court? I think most of the people here (including myself) do not have a clear understanding of the Korean legal system... so why is it so clear that either party is going to win?
On September 09 2010 08:40 drixta wrote: Just a note I'd like to add.
All those accusations about Gretech and Blizzard want to eliminate proteam scene are false.
If you spend a little bit of time looking at GSL ladder. Over 80% of the competitors are from proteam such as Prime, Ogs, Werra, Nex...
''- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.''
incredible support to proteams...
beside, Ogs, Werra etc. are proteams but are NOT in a teamleague of some sort thus your argument doesn't hold.
Ugh, I don't know what to say. I mean, I'm really happy they'll just go on with the proleague, but it's not like it's because they sorted things out, but the complete opposite. Sounds to me that at this point, both parties have just decided on making it as hard as possible for the other party. I doubt they'll ever sort things out with this approach.
KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations. Gretech's personnel responds that KeSPA will not avoid a lawsuit if this happens.
and then blizzard-gretech will sue kespas ass and GG kespa. KESPA FAGS DOWN CAPITALISM UP
On September 09 2010 07:42 Nephrahim wrote: Am I the only one who.... I mean, doesn't care of the video game changes every few years?
I understand people being mad BW is dying, and I respect that, but I've never played any RTS more then a few years. For people saying "Yeah, and in 5 years, SC2 will be replaced with something else!!! ... So? New games get traded in and out of things like Evo and WCG all the time without universes exploding.
I know we all want Video games to be like, Soccer, and not be replaced every few years, but I don't think it's realistic.
I'm positive that if KeSPA wins the inevitable lawsuit and that the pro teams and Proleague survive, we'll have Brood War for at least another decade, if not longer. Brood War is still more popular in South Korea and there's really no reason whatsoever for players who are at the top of Brood War and on a pro team to move over to SC2.
Frankly, a steady salary with a pro team is far better than the Gretech model of, "just enough money to get by via your sponsor (if you're good enough to get a sponsor) and you'll make money assuming you win a tournament!" I think the BW pro teams model with actual salaries would be far more preferable to anyone at the top level of gaming and it's honestly what's given BW the long life it already has. So, yeah, Brood War will continue long after SC2 is "finished" so long as the game doesn't get shafted by Gretech/Blizzard. Why do you even think that Gretech/Blizzard are doing everything in their power to end BW? Because they know that BW isn't going to die anytime soon on its own.
edit: Before someone points out, "BUT OMG SC2 HAS PRO TEAMS TOO," yes. You're correct, there are pro teams for players who are good enough to get on them. The BW Proleague allows B-level players to get on a team and grow, which is what a lot (if not all) of the current high level players did. Jaedong used to suck until his team and his coach helped him grow his talents, stories like Jaedong's will be impossible in the Gretech system of, "no more Proleague, you have to be super good from the get go to even have a shot at making this a career." Honestly, do you think IdrA would even be a top contender if he hadn't gotten the opportunity to practice at CJ Entus and eSTRO? Probably not.
On September 09 2010 08:40 drixta wrote: Just a note I'd like to add.
All those accusations about Gretech and Blizzard want to eliminate proteam scene are false.
If you spend a little bit of time looking at GSL ladder. Over 80% of the competitors are from proteam such as Prime, Ogs, Werra, Nex...
''- Gretech refuses to sign off on the Proleague because it will compete with the GSL. KeSPA asks to confirm if Gretech is killing Proleague off because it does not benefit Gretech. Gretech answers yes. Negotiations end.''
incredible support to proteams...
beside, Ogs, Werra etc. are proteams but are NOT in a teamleague of some sort thus your argument doesn't hold.
And why the hell would I or anyone else wanted to help something that is not only gives little to no benefit to myself but might might even be competing with me? Call me greedy, evil, or what ever the hell you people want, but from a business point of view, it is totally moronic of Gretech to give KeSPA when the con obviously outweigh the con.
Ah very conflicted, I think above all I don't want to lose PL or MSL, but I also kind've want SC2 e-sports to flourish in SK too. Hopefully, some compromise with both sides winning in some manner will happen
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
I can't speak for where Korean fans are coming from. My impression of KeSPA supporters (or more accurately, the anti-Blizzard/Gretech camp) on this site, and my own position, is that we just don't want pro BW to die. No matter how bad KeSPA is, if KeSPA wins = BW lives on and Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies, then I support KeSPA all the way. Is KeSPA worth defending? Perhaps not. Is BW? Fuck yeah.
We don't know all the facts that well, but the story emerging does make sense. Pro-BW's continued survival is obviously in KeSPA's best interests, and frankly, Blizzard/Gretech wanting to kill BW to make room for SC2 also makes sense. What are the crucial pieces of information not reaching TL that would paint a different picture?
That's interesting what you say about esports.dailygame.co.kr though. If Fox News is a fair comparison, that definitely detracts form their credibility. Would any other Korean speakers concur?
Why can't they just negotiate and let Gretech have the Tuesday slot and they keep the Monday slot? That sounds fair to me, really. That way both companies have to work with 1 less day than they'd like, but it still works.
I can't speak for where Korean fans are coming from. My impression of KeSPA supporters (or more accurately, the anti-Blizzard/Gretech camp) on this site, and my own position, is that we just don't want pro BW to die. No matter how bad KeSPA is, if KeSPA wins = BW lives on and Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies, then I support KeSPA all the way. Is KeSPA worth defending? Perhaps not. Is BW? Fuck yeah.
Currently, not all people here believe Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies. That is the logic used by Kespa and anti-Blizzard/Gretech. A lot of people are disgusted with Kespa because they view Kespa's desire in being the sole keepers of BW in Korea are to line their own pockets, not to keep eSports alive or 'give back' to the BW fans. In fact, I've heard many times that Korean eSports/BW fans sigh whenever they see a Kespa released article starting with 'Because Kespa wants to strengthen/grow the Korean eSports scene... (they'll do this and that)...', because they end up screwing up everything they touch. You have to remember, Kespa DID NOT grow the Korean eSports scene, OGN & other broadcasters + fans did. Kespa's argument that Blizzard is coming in after they've built up eSports is quite false; in fact, they were accused of it when they started the whole downward spiral of the BW scene in Korea back in 2007 with the broadcasting rights fiasco. That is actually when Blizzard first started being more aggressive with the eSports scene in Korea, since Kespa was screwing over the eSports community royally. (Then of course, you have the GomTV league boycott fiasco as well... How does growing the eSports scene = less leagues and contents?)
But I digress... as dcemuser said above, the more sane fans in Korea want a compromise between the two, which as of now Gretech is more willing to do than Kespa. (Basically, Gretech wanted to negotiate, Kespa said "OK we'll negotiate, but we won't accept any of your terms" Gretech said "WTF? Then what do you want?" Kespa then goes all out media blitz saying "Gretech wants to shut us down")
Of course, I'm simplifying a lot of things here, but that's more or less the general consensus shared by the older age fans here. Gotta run, so will be back in a bit.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Huh?
I'm pretty sure my "hard" facts are hard facts. They're just dates and the parties.
The rest I've pointed out was circumstantial evidence and I've used it as such and didn't say anything about.
Secondly if you actually read the DES articles, I'm only taking quotations that were taken from the DES articles, none of their interpretative shit. I understand that DES isn't very credible when it comes to certain things (ie: it's very obvious when they're being retarded) but I'm pretty sure they would have some integrity to not make up quotes.
I can't speak for where Korean fans are coming from. My impression of KeSPA supporters (or more accurately, the anti-Blizzard/Gretech camp) on this site, and my own position, is that we just don't want pro BW to die. No matter how bad KeSPA is, if KeSPA wins = BW lives on and Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies, then I support KeSPA all the way. Is KeSPA worth defending? Perhaps not. Is BW? Fuck yeah.
Currently, not all people here believe Blizzard/Gretech wins = BW dies. That is the logic used by Kespa and anti-Blizzard/Gretech. A lot of people are disgusted with Kespa because they view Kespa's desire in being the sole keepers of BW in Korea are to line their own pockets, not to keep eSports alive or 'give back' to the BW fans. In fact, I've heard many times that Korean eSports/BW fans sigh whenever they see a Kespa released article starting with 'Because Kespa wants to strengthen/grow the Korean eSports scene... (they'll do this and that)...', because they end up screwing up everything they touch. You have to remember, Kespa DID NOT grow the Korean eSports scene, OGN & other broadcasters + fans did. Kespa's argument that Blizzard is coming in after they've built up eSports is quite false; in fact, they were accused of it when they started the whole downward spiral of the BW scene in Korea back in 2007 with the broadcasting rights fiasco. That is actually when Blizzard first started being more aggressive with the eSports scene in Korea, since Kespa was screwing over the eSports community royally. (Then of course, you have the GomTV league boycott fiasco as well... How does growing the eSports scene = less leagues and contents?)
But I digress... as dcemuser said above, the more sane fans in Korea want a compromise between the two, which as of now Gretech is more willing to do than Kespa. (Basically, Gretech wanted to negotiate, Kespa said "OK we'll negotiate, but we won't accept any of your terms" Gretech said "WTF? Then what do you want?" Kespa then goes all out media blitz saying "Gretech wants to shut us down")
Of course, I'm simplifying a lot of things here, but that's more or less the general consensus shared by the older age fans here. Gotta run, so will be back in a bit.
The only thing you're citing is one Fomos article from Gretech's side, which is included in the circumstantial evidence. Do you really think that's what actually happened, or rather, all that has happened? It's a very one sided tale and there was another fomos article posted that kinda refuted that.
I don't know why you're coming here and suddenly pretending you know everything. If you do, please tell us, but if it's circumstantial evidence, please mention it, and please tell us what source since its' quite funny how you're attacking my use of sources but dont' mention any of your own but we have to believe what you say from what you've read somewhere.
Just try to be a bit more objective about this. "Consensus by the older age fans here"? Even pgr21 is pointing out that Gretech has pushed it too far in this.
You don't need to actually say people want a compromise, lol. I think that's what everyone wants. Not sure what the hell you're playing on.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Huh?
I'm pretty sure my "hard" facts are hard facts. They're just dates and the parties.
The rest I've pointed out was circumstantial evidence and I've used it as such and didn't say anything about.
Secondly if you actually read the DES articles, I'm only taking quotations that were taken from the DES articles, none of their interpretative shit. I understand that DES isn't very credible when it comes to certain things (ie: it's very obvious when they're being retarded) but I'm pretty sure they would have some integrity to not make up quotes.
Not sure what you're trying to attack here.
He's not trying to attack anything, just mentioning DES as a strange source. Of course that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong either, you could quote fox news for giving the dates and number of troops that went to afghanistan any certain day but ignore all their snide and politically motivated comments and you would still have fairly accurate information
As long as the discussions (both on this thread, as well as with Gretech and Kespa) keeping going around in circles, this issue needs to go to court. I won't say who would win, as I am not a legal expert, but the court must define the following prior to making a decision:
1) What exactly does Blizzard own?
2) What does the consumer who buys the game own?
3) What, if anything, is kespa selling? (ie is it broadcasting the replays or broadcasting the performances of the players)
4) Did Blizzard give consent by acquiescence when it did not object to kespa forming the league and broadcasting them? Is there a grounds for lache?
DISCLOSURE: I hope that kespa prevails and in the future, expand to SC2, but I believe the points above has to be addressed by the court so that a legal foundation can be laid to build a stronger esports governing body.
On September 09 2010 08:04 Lokian wrote: Anyone know the specifics of the time-slot issue?
It would be cool if SC1/SC2 were back to back!
It would be like the old days watching smallville, then supernatural back to back. It was a good night for me.
But SC1 has OSL/MSL/PL while SC2 only has GSL? I imagine GSL has a lot of games to do, and should be similar to the amount of games from all three BW leagues? I don't exactly know whats what, and cant really say much about it... but I just hope everything pans out alright. I just wish Kespa is more willing to accommodate more but this does not seem to be the case. Surely those two can work things out and everything will be fine!
Apparently GSL is running every month, so I don't think that there will be any lack of games (we're barely halfway through Ro64 and it's been a week). I agree that a version of PL would be nice, but it's not really as necessary as some people seem to think; other individual sports work just fine without teams. There just has to be more money thrown in.
Exactly... BW progaming would need a TON more money thrown in if the teams were to disband. The problem is that without ProLeague, potential sponsors (of teams mainly) won't get ANYTHING out of sponsoring their players. In individual league the player is the one taking all the praise, unlike ProLeague, where the sponsor is in the spotlight.
Not to mention the fact that sports based on individual league are nowhere near as big as those with team leagues.
Saying it's not necessary as some people think only shows your complete ignorance. ProLeague is what brought corporate sponsors to BW. Getting rid of PL will bring BW back to the dark age of esports (something Blizzard/Gretech are OK with, including SC2).
On September 09 2010 15:59 splints wrote: As long as the discussions (both on this thread, as well as with Gretech and Kespa) keeping going around in circles, this issue needs to go to court. I won't say who would win, as I am not a legal expert, but the court must define the following prior to making a decision:
1) What exactly does Blizzard own?
2) What does the consumer who buys the game own?
3) What, if anything, is kespa selling? (ie is it broadcasting the replays or broadcasting the performances of the players)
4) Did Blizzard give consent by acquiescence when it did not object to kespa forming the league and broadcasting them? Is there a grounds for lache?
DISCLOSURE: I hope that kespa prevails and in the future, expand to SC2, but I believe the points above has to be addressed by the court so that a legal foundation can be laid to build a stronger esports governing body.
And a legal expert will tell you that this issue needs to go to court.
So yeah I like this post as these questions are basically what we have now regarding legal stuff and if you think you've got the answers to them you're just wrong unless you happend to be a lawyer with knowledge of both U.S and South Korean law as well as insight into exactly how all the contracts and TOAs in this mess looks.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Correct me if i am wrong, but u suddenly jump in and claim that your opinion represents that of many (e.g. "the more sane Korean fans", "majority of Korean eSports fan", etc). Where there any sources or petition that South Koreans signed that said that? or did you just slapped it in so that (some) people would find your argument more credible. Personally speaking, for one who's first sentences were the criticism of credibility of sources, you were really quick to forget the need for credible sources (i.e. not yourself).
There were many other things i would like to point out, but obviously they have been mentioned already, here n there in the thread. Just because you were too eager to post your hopefully-sophisticated-sounding argument and couldnt be bothered to read them i wont put them here.
Just one bottomline: If Gretech/Blizz get their way, the current pro-scene as we have now will likely go *poof*. No Gretech = No proteams (yes i have very good reasons backing that claim), and thats the end of high-quality play as we know it. Most people here seem to hope that BW scene doesnt die. If you (new said-hes-Korean guy that just posted here) claim that Gretech wins = Proteam/Proscene still happening, please show me your reasons.
On September 07 2010 13:11 justiceknight wrote: Will Kespa gets a lawsuit thing from Blizzard since Kespa isnt allowed to host anymore BW games??
The filing won't be from Blizzard, it will be from Gretech.
While this means we will likely see some proleague games, possibly the full season. It also means that if and when a judge takes a decision, the effects are likely to be disastrous, and the boycott of Blizzard lines of products is likely to result in many teams losing quality players not wanting to be involved in the aftermath.
On September 09 2010 12:52 tkim08 wrote: Long time viewer, first time poster!
I'm sorry, but as someone peripherally related to what is going on, I can tell you with certainty that the 'hard facts' are quite soft, and nothing is solid in the news of Gretech/Blizzard vs Kespa (or as Kespa would put it, the global eSports community).
Is Gretech/Blizzard trying to kill global eSports? looking at the 'facts', which are at most circumstantial evidence, you could make the same claim that Kespa is trying to kill global eSports. No one can be sure what was dicussed during the meeting, since it is all hidden under the NDA. "Kespa-said-Gretech-said" stories are just that, stories, until the meeting minutes are released in agreement by both sides (which will never happen). Since no one will agree to one version, they can each say whatever they want. Thus, neither Kespa nor Gretech can be blamed for sure ATM.
So then we go to circumstantial evidence. This is where Kespa gets buried, and why the majority of Korean eSports fans, however they are sad about the possible demise of the BW scene, do not feel Kespa is worth defending. This is kind of like a character reference, where someone with a bad track-record will lose to someone with a less-bad track-record. In actuality, I see a lot more Kespa defense in TL than any forum in Korea, but considering that most people here are as logical and fair-minded as the eSports fans here, I think its because not all information reaches TL fans with the same balance as it does for people in Korea.
Just a few things to note: esports.dailygame.co.kr as a credible source? Seriously? These guys are as biased for Kespa as Fox News is for the Republican party (for those of you not in the US, that means A LOT) Even diehard Kespa defenders will shy away from quoting Daily Esports, just because that will just lower the credibility of their argument.
Correct me if i am wrong, but u suddenly jump in and claim that your opinion represents that of many (e.g. "the more sane Korean fans", "majority of Korean eSports fan", etc). Where there any sources or petition that South Koreans signed that said that? or did you just slapped it in so that (some) people would find your argument more credible. Personally speaking, for one who's first sentences were the criticism of credibility of sources, you were really quick to forget the need for credible sources (i.e. not yourself).
There were many other things i would like to point out, but obviously they have been mentioned already, here n there in the thread. Just because you were too eager to post your hopefully-sophisticated-sounding argument and couldnt be bothered to read them i wont put them here.
Just one bottomline: If Gretech/Blizz get their way, the current pro-scene as we have now will likely go *poof*. No Gretech = No proteams (yes i have very good reasons backing that claim), and thats the end of high-quality play as we know it. Most people here seem to hope that BW scene doesnt die. If you (new said-hes-Korean guy that just posted here) claim that Gretech wins = Proteam/Proscene still happening, please show me your reasons.
It seems to be the general consensus in korea with fans, I dunno where you would sign that off on a petition. Maybe if you could read korean, you could check it out on some message boards (messages like "this shit should just get over so i can get back to watching my damn proleague") but I don't see how you would assume that he could find a simple and consise "credible source" for general opinion. It's not like they do a census on the damn thing lol.
Why does everybody bash on the man? His opinions seem like the ones I have heard from cousins and friends since I've come back to korea (most pro BW: kespa is meh, gretech is also meh). He just tried to give an opinion from a guy in korea's standpoint, he may be talking in more general terms but its just a matter of english, it makes him sound better (which may leave several of you nitpicky but it may be a language issue etc).
That being said, I don't think that they can run in and shut down proleague, it would be really sad if somehow managed to muster the authority to do that
On September 09 2010 08:40 drixta wrote: Just a note I'd like to add.
All those accusations about Gretech and Blizzard want to eliminate proteam scene are false.
If you spend a little bit of time looking at GSL ladder. Over 80% of the competitors are from proteam such as Prime, Ogs, Werra, Nex...
Some of them are not even pro teams but clans, and you cant compare those names to the big pro teams in BW, only when GSL or whatever tourney of SC2 in Korea has enough viewers there will be real pro teams (of course if Blizz/Gretech are interested in that kind of format), so in conclusion the actual (real) pro team scene indeed will be erase for BW.
SC2 is the future of esports, good riddance to Kespa's useless organization. Korea will be a much better place when every friggin event dosnt need to be controlled bt Kespa.
On September 10 2010 01:43 IamAnton wrote: SC2 is the future of esports, good riddance to Kespa's useless organization. Korea will be a much better place when every friggin event dosnt need to be controlled bt Kespa.
yeah! korea will be much a better place when blizzard controlls the events. and korea will be much a better place when they pay to blizz for every tournament they hold. not to forget stupid pro gamer salary... korea will be much a better place when pro gamers can only earn money by winning individual leagues.
On September 09 2010 08:40 drixta wrote: Just a note I'd like to add.
All those accusations about Gretech and Blizzard want to eliminate proteam scene are false.
If you spend a little bit of time looking at GSL ladder. Over 80% of the competitors are from proteam such as Prime, Ogs, Werra, Nex...
Some of them are not even pro teams but clans, and you cant compare those names to the big pro teams in BW, only when GSL or whatever tourney of SC2 in Korea has enough viewers there will be real pro teams (of course if Blizz/Gretech are interested in that kind of format), so in conclusion the actual (real) pro team scene indeed will be erase for BW.
Maybe it might be better to say that Gretech and Blizzard wants to eliminate corporate teams. Sponsored teams = okay, teams owned by companies = not okay. Corporations that own teams are not heavily invested into progaming, so they are less hurt by ditching leagues. Sponsored teams on the other hand...
The more I think about this whole thing the less I understand why people are pro-Gretech/Blizz. Sure, there are business reasons for Gretech to be doing what they're doing and sure KeSPA isn't exactly a saint in this issue, I'm certain that there can be good arguments (legal or otherwise) for both sides of this issue. But as a gamer and as someone who likes to watch Brood War and Proleague how could you possibly want Gretech/Blizzard to win the inevitable lawsuit? For starters, if they win Proleague is gone and without Proleague the Brood War pro teams are gone. This may not spell the end of Brood War, but it will drastically change it and unless it's continued to be supported with more money than StarCraft II the players will not stick around Brood War for long. Why would you play a game that's harder, requires more practice, and pays less than this other game over here?
But, let's assume you don't care about Brood War, Proleague, the pro teams, and you don't even know who Kim Taek Yong is. If Gretech/Blizzard wins this case it will establish a precedent not just in South Korea but likely the rest of the world. Game companies will be able to sell broadcasting rights to certain companies and restrict others from broadcasting. Imagine what will happen if this case is won by Gretech/Blizz for just a second. Let's say that Bungie decides it wants to sell the broadcasting rights to Halo (though why anyone would want to watch pro Halo is beyond me). Assume that ESPN decides they want to buy those broadcasting rights, now MLG can no longer broadcast Halo 3 unless they negotiate with ESPN who decide they won't want to let MLG broadcast Halo 3. While this may be ok for some people, because after all who cares about MLG, what happens even later when ESPN decides that after a year of broadcasting Halo 3 they don't get the viewers they wanted and stopped having a Halo 3 league. What do they do? Sell the broadcasting rights to someone like MLG? They could do that, but why would they as they certainly won't get anywhere near as much as they paid for to get the rights to broadcast the game. So, in all likelihood they'll hang onto the rights and maybe try again for when Halo Reach comes out effectively killing the Halo 3 pro scene. That may be a bleak scenario but I can't help but think that if Blizz/Gretech wins this case it'll just open up a pandora's box of professional gaming.
Beyond that, I think the court's decision will largely be impacted on whether or not they decide if the game is just software and that things people make are their property. Similar to how just because I make an image in Adobe Photoshop doesn't mean that Adobe owns my image.
On September 10 2010 01:43 IamAnton wrote: SC2 is the future of esports, good riddance to Kespa's useless organization. Korea will be a much better place when every friggin event dosnt need to be controlled bt Kespa.
No, an improved version of SC2 (without big balance issues, with LAN support, with new exciting adjustment to game-play, and without much control from a company) is the future of e-sport.
Korean people gonna stick with their beloved BW until that version of SC2 comes out imo.
And the mods have already said that those who make posts with pure hate on Kespa/Blizzard/Gretech and no arguments like this would be "dealt" with, hopefully they will do their duty.
But, let's assume you don't care about Brood War, Proleague, the pro teams, and you don't even know who Kim Taek Yong is. If Gretech/Blizzard wins this case it will establish a precedent not just in South Korea but likely the rest of the world. Game companies will be able to sell broadcasting rights to certain companies and restrict others from broadcasting.
You do realize this is the way every other major sport works? Every time you turn on the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, EPL, Tennis, Golf, or any other sport, the broadcaster you're watching paid for those rights.
And I don't get why teams are so necessary to a pro scene. What other individual sport/game has arbitrarily created teams? Roger Federer doesn't play for a team. Except when representing the US, Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson don't play for teams. Poker players don't play for teams. Manny Pacquaio doesn't box for a team, and neither does Floyd Mayweather.
Teams in individual sports don't really make that much sense. Players in individual sports make money through prize winning, through sponsorship, and in some cases (as in boxing) through a cut of the proceeds of ticket and pay-per-view sales.
Can you name a single other sport that is structured the way Brood War is structured?
But, let's assume you don't care about Brood War, Proleague, the pro teams, and you don't even know who Kim Taek Yong is. If Gretech/Blizzard wins this case it will establish a precedent not just in South Korea but likely the rest of the world. Game companies will be able to sell broadcasting rights to certain companies and restrict others from broadcasting.
You do realize this is the way every other major sport works? Every time you turn on the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, EPL, Tennis, Golf, or any other sport, the broadcaster you're watching paid for those rights.
And I don't get why teams are so necessary to a pro scene. What other individual sport/game has arbitrarily created teams? Roger Federer doesn't play for a team. Except when representing the US, Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson don't play for teams. Poker players don't play for teams. Manny Pacquaio doesn't box for a team, and neither does Floyd Mayweather.
Teams in individual sports don't really make that much sense. Players in individual sports make money through prize winning, through sponsorship, and in some cases (as in boxing) through a cut of the proceeds of ticket and pay-per-view sales.
Can you name a single other sport that is structured the way Brood War is structured?
You do realize this is the way every other major sport works? Every time you turn on the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, EPL, Tennis, Golf, or any other sport, the broadcaster you're watching paid for those rights.
Yes, but who paid who, ABC paid NBA. This is like OGN paying KeSPA. There is no counterpart of Blizzard here.
And I don't get why teams are so necessary to a pro scene. What other individual sport/game has arbitrarily created teams? Roger Federer doesn't play for a team. Except when representing the US, Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson don't play for teams. Poker players don't play for teams. Manny Pacquaio doesn't box for a team, and neither does Floyd Mayweather.
Teams in individual sports don't really make that much sense. Players in individual sports make money through prize winning, through sponsorship, and in some cases (as in boxing) through a cut of the proceeds of ticket and pay-per-view sales.
Can you name a single other sport that is structured the way Brood War is structured?
You can not compare starcraft to tennis, poker or Golf. This is e-sports, the proscene is too small compared to tennis, golf, poker, etc. There is too little money involved here. So people have to stick together for more people to get paid. Only in this way, more people can be involved, and then form a sport.
Tennis's scenario can be applied if and only if top SC player like Flash can make as much money as Federer just with individual league prizes. And that means SC individual league's prizes have to be raised 300 times more. Do you think this is possible in 5 years?
Can you name one individual sport which does not have teams make similar amount of money like SC?
Well I understand that Kespa almost killed GomTV with the cancellation of the last tournament due to lack of interest caused by big names boycotting it?
But, let's assume you don't care about Brood War, Proleague, the pro teams, and you don't even know who Kim Taek Yong is. If Gretech/Blizzard wins this case it will establish a precedent not just in South Korea but likely the rest of the world. Game companies will be able to sell broadcasting rights to certain companies and restrict others from broadcasting.
You do realize this is the way every other major sport works? Every time you turn on the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, EPL, Tennis, Golf, or any other sport, the broadcaster you're watching paid for those rights.
And I don't get why teams are so necessary to a pro scene. What other individual sport/game has arbitrarily created teams? Roger Federer doesn't play for a team. Except when representing the US, Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson don't play for teams. Poker players don't play for teams. Manny Pacquaio doesn't box for a team, and neither does Floyd Mayweather.
Teams in individual sports don't really make that much sense. Players in individual sports make money through prize winning, through sponsorship, and in some cases (as in boxing) through a cut of the proceeds of ticket and pay-per-view sales.
Can you name a single other sport that is structured the way Brood War is structured?
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
On September 10 2010 06:55 Zholistic wrote: Well I understand that Kespa almost killed GomTV with the cancellation of the last tournament due to lack of interest caused by big names boycotting it?
So... Acti-Blizz/Gretech is "evil" (or at least vindictive and/or spiteful) and acting irrationally instead of businessminded? And KeSPA are idiots for biting the hand that feeds them?
If that's what I have to choose from then "neither of them" is beginning to sound better and better.
You can not compare starcraft to tennis, poker or Golf. This is e-sports, the scene is too small compared to tennis, golf, poker, etc. There is too little money involved here. So people have to stick together for more people to get paid. Only in this way, more people can be involved, and then form a sport.
Tennis's scenario can be applied if and only if top SC player like Flash can make as much money as Federer just with individual league prizes. And that means SC individual league's prizes have to be raised 300 times more.
You are 100% right, First: e-sports dont have the massive audience that tennis or golf have and even the target segment of the market is different, so you are running a league with a very limited budget. Second: if you dont have proteams you hurt a stable enviroment that allows: having more than 5? S-Class players winning each tourney and all the money, develop a really excel skill cap by having practice partners. and last: having proteams allow to have more new skilled players into the scene (B-teamers), so it can be feed constantly. People who is against this model is against the only model in a RTS game that has proven to be succesful (and it is struggling). How much a Kespa team spend in total for one year? USD 1MM, 500k, more?, any of you really thinks that 11 companies are going to spend that amount of money sponsoring a solo man tourney without any asocciation to the brand name but some logos?, that is not even realistic.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
This actually gives me the most hope of any assessment I've seen so far. I would still like to see Gretech/Blizzard actively support the formation of an SC2 proleague, but I'd definitely settle for the poker model.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
So what would be your magical way to effectively broadcast SC?, and you are talking about korean SC players you cant expect dramatic personalities. If you recipe for succes is that, tell me then why in the US where are the most advanced broadcasting networks, where every year they add something new to see in the NFL and every sport, where everything is about Drama, even if a cat is stuck in a tree, SC is not a succesful e-sport?.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
They're different in practically every way. For poker, you can play anywhere at any time and all you need is a deck of cards. For Starcraft, you need to buy the game, have a computer and an internet connection. For poker, you always have the chance of beating a top player if you get lucky; you can always get a hot streak going and win a bunch. Players with limited skill can throw in money and win, which gives them a big rush. With Starcraft, you need to train for hours a day to get anywhere close to good. With poker, you're gambling money, so casinos and sites can make enormous profits. It's to their benefit to advertise as much as possible to get more people playing. For Starcraft, Blizzard gets $20 when you buy the Battlechest. They're not the same at ALL, other than that they're both individually played games.
But, let's assume you don't care about Brood War, Proleague, the pro teams, and you don't even know who Kim Taek Yong is. If Gretech/Blizzard wins this case it will establish a precedent not just in South Korea but likely the rest of the world. Game companies will be able to sell broadcasting rights to certain companies and restrict others from broadcasting.
You do realize this is the way every other major sport works? Every time you turn on the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, EPL, Tennis, Golf, or any other sport, the broadcaster you're watching paid for those rights.
And I don't get why teams are so necessary to a pro scene. What other individual sport/game has arbitrarily created teams? Roger Federer doesn't play for a team. Except when representing the US, Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson don't play for teams. Poker players don't play for teams. Manny Pacquaio doesn't box for a team, and neither does Floyd Mayweather.
Teams in individual sports don't really make that much sense. Players in individual sports make money through prize winning, through sponsorship, and in some cases (as in boxing) through a cut of the proceeds of ticket and pay-per-view sales.
Can you name a single other sport that is structured the way Brood War is structured?
Pro gaming is different from the NBA, MLB, etc. for a number of reasons least of which being the prize pool. What happens when Developer A sells the broadcasting rights to broadcaster C, Developer B sells the rights to broadcaster F, and Developer C sells the rights to broadcaster W? In pro gaming you have a near limitless number of developers whose games may or may not have a professional scene, unlike other sports. And as others have pointed out, even if you're cool with all of this other sports can't be compared to Brood War as all professional Brood War players will need to get a "real job" after they're done. Even if it's commentating or something, they won't be able to live off their Brood War winnings like the people in every other sport you've named.
Beyond that, the number one reason why you and everyone else should want a Proleague to continue for Brood War and develop in StarCraft 2 is simple. Without the pro teams we likely wouldn't have Jaedong, Flash, Effort, and who knows who else. Sure, there's a chance they may have developed and been able to break out on the scene but it's far more likely that the players who were there first and who were good at first would continue to be the dominant players just like in every other professional video game outside of StarCraft Brood War. In all honesty, without the pro team format that Brood War has it's very likely that most, if not all, of the top players today wouldn't be there.
The poker argument and the other professional sports arguments are totally off track. - With poker, you can make a living by being the 10000th best because every game you play is for money. With Starcraft, the 10000th best player cannot survive. - Football, Tennis, etc are all free games created 75+ years ago. The football spin-off XFL was allowed because no one owns the rights to the rules of the game.
I think the best thing that can happen is for KeSPa to continue running its leagues, and to respond to legal action if it arises. It seems like the Korean courts favor a looser definition of Intellectual Property than America. This may result in two separate groups of players for each game, but that's not a huge loss to us.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
Note - this is not MaybeNextTime posting, I'm his brother. I don't have an account myself, but this post really struck me and made me reply to it.
I may not be a huge poker scene follower, but even I know how it works. It works almost exactly the same way SCBW scene works. You have poker teams, off the top of my head:
Then you have the equivalent of the Courage Tournament, so called satelites (they are either very cheap or free tournaments). The winner gets to play on TV, may get a yearly contract or get recruited to the team.
And then you have TV stations dedicated to broadcasting highlight events AND the satelite tournaments on a daily basis (vide: Courage/ProLeague).
How is that dissimilar to SCBW setup? To me it looks very familiar.
PS Players like T-Rider (from WCReplays and from TwoPlusTwo) were able to make it big thanks to the rake back, which works like a steady sallary for players who play consistently (play, not win all the time).
In other words, you are completely wrong on the subject of poker.
I think the main difference is a player can survive full-time with Poker without needing to be sponsored by a team, and be able to practice/play on his own, and a poker player doesn't need to practice with the best of the best in order to be able to compete well. In sc, unless if you are in the top %, you won't get a sponosred as an individual and you NEED a team to allow you to dedicate so much of your time and effort to getting better (and thus potentially become a top player).
I'm pretty sure my "hard" facts are hard facts. They're just dates and the parties.
The rest I've pointed out was circumstantial evidence and I've used it as such and didn't say anything about.
In tkim08 defence I also feel like the op summary is Kespa-biased. It cointains a lot of detached quotes and demands from the Gretech side and not a lot of information of what Kespa said or offered. That being said, I'm very appreciative for you taking the time to do this. I like it when people state their opinion
Reading between the lines it seems to me that Gretech wants: - That the timetables of proleague and GSL not colliding (thus enabling the second point and securing higher viewership). - A guarantee that Kespa will not interfere with individual players wanting to play in the GSL.
If this is not the case, then maybe Gretech just wants to get back at Kespa for ruining their BW leagues. Anyways, I cannot understand why neither side has proposed an actual timetable allowing both leagues to run side by side...anyone?
I'm surprised so many people are willing to side with a government-backed cartel (KeSPA) who treats its employees like dirt, as Progamers essentially have no negotiation leverage when all the teams are colluding with government approval.
Between BW and SC2, whichever game "survives" should be determined by whichever game attracts the most talent and the most viewers without any monopolistic coercion involved. In terms of which party is impeding this process the most, it clearly must be KeSPA and its iron-grip over progamers and a large portion of broadcast rights. That Blizzard is threatening to kill BW through its IP rights is despicable as well, but that won't happen until there's a court order. In the meantime, KeSPA continues to wield its artificial cartel powers to handicap any attempt for SC2 to gain ground in South Korea. You people are giving them too much leeway for establishing the esports scene; KeSPA should certainly be commended for that, but it is not necessary for the survival of Proleague for KeSPA to wield monopoly power over professional gamers and broadcast rights, assuming Proleague can stand on its own.
Well as I see it, and as has been said before, KeSPA is the lesser evil for the hardcore BW fan. While KeSPA grips BW so tightly and so forcefully that it hurts, blizzard is digging a hole under it to ensure it's demise. Meanwhile KeSPA at least keeps it from plummeting to its doom. Every BW fan knows that KeSPA is tyrannical. Blizzard seems to be homicidal though, so I side with KeSPA.
- Gretech picked SC2 and want to kill its main competitor BW with Blizzard support under the guise of "IP rights" - The BW sponsors that form Kespa don't want to have their investment killed.
Of course they are intransigent since their objectives are opposite. I really hope it's settled in court because this isn't only professional BW at stake, if it fails it'll be much harder to convince that esports can succeed.
And srsly, how Kespa or proteams treat their players is completely off-topic.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
Poker is very different from ESPORTS. Pro players make a living from cash games and sngs. Almost no successful players live off live tournaments since there's so much luck involved. ESPORTS cannot work this way. Without proteams, progamers have no way of earning money on the side, and tournament winnings are NOT sufficient to maintain a living.
Sounds like these Korean companies are as bad as each other. I hope the foreign SC2 scene takes off enough so that the best players can make a living without having anything to do with Korea.
Progaming needs professionalism to get companies out of the gaming niche to consider investing, and that's what KeSPA delivers. While we may disagree with their decisions, it has worked well. They got up to 150,000 people in a stadium to watch two nerds playing a videogame, for God's sake.
And the alternatives are just not doing good - Blizzard with the dismal Bnet 0.2, GOM with mediocre offer to the foreign audience, ESL's treatment of IdrA and MorroW. I would love to someone to step up and take the lead on worldwide progaming development but it's just not happening. They are more interested on facebook integration, a few hundred people paying 20 bucks for a shitty stream and 14 obs on a tournament game, respectively.
You do realise that there's an enormous difference in the amount of money and tournaments for these things?
10 years ago, essentially nobody gave a shit about Poker. Once per year it would get a quick recap on the friggin Discovery Channel. If they were playing for "big money", it was purely because there was an expensive buy-in--in other words, the vast majority of poker players at the world series were losing money.
Did they get together and say, "hey guys, we should all form arbitrary teams so we can all make a decent living doing this?" No. They recognized that the only ones who "deserved" money were the ones who won something.
Did that attitude stop poker from taking off? Not at all. When networks figured out how to effectively broadcast it, and a few dramatic personalities brought some liveliness to the game, the combination of high stakes and human drama made it popular, and the rest is history. Of course, to this day, there are no poker player "teams", and no expectation that people who aren't winning deserve a cut. If you win, you make a shitload, if you lose, you really lose. Thats just the way it works.
E-sports and poker are not that dissimilar, except that games like BW and SC2 are more fun to watch than poker. If poker could take off due to a combination of human drama and effective broadcasting/promotion, there's no reason e-sports can't as well. Whether there are teams, or not.
Poker is very different from ESPORTS. Pro players make a living from cash games and sngs. Almost no successful players live off live tournaments since there's so much luck involved. ESPORTS cannot work this way. Without proteams, progamers have no way of earning money on the side, and tournament winnings are NOT sufficient to maintain a living.
As a poker player I can assure you that makes no sense. There are many people that not only make a living but also 6+ figures/year from poker tournaments, it's not a matter of luck but how much they play, minimizing variance.
On September 07 2010 13:24 So no fek wrote: If Gretech kills proleague I swear I will never watch another Gom event.
Me too. Fuck Blizzard. I feel like I'm watching my favorite sport collapsing around me. When/if this reaches court, then, well, Kespa will probably lose.
On September 10 2010 11:49 Fields wrote: Progaming needs professionalism to get companies out of the gaming niche to consider investing, and that's what KeSPA delivers. While we may disagree with their decisions, it has worked well. They got up to 150,000 people in a stadium to watch two nerds playing a videogame, for God's sake.
And the alternatives are just not doing good - Blizzard with the dismal Bnet 0.2, GOM with mediocre offer to the foreign audience, ESL's treatment of IdrA and MorroW. I would love to someone to step up and take the lead on worldwide progaming development but it's just not happening. They are more interested on facebook integration, a few hundred people paying 20 bucks for a shitty stream and 14 obs on a tournament game, respectively.
Yeah, which is what I can't understand about all those siding with Gretech/Blizz on this. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about esports, they care about making money. That's fine and dandy, the argument can be made that Gretech, OGN, and MBC only care about money too. KeSPA on the other hand is non-profit and despite what they've done in the past they did a good job with Brood War and with the Proleagues and they most certainly will continue to do what needs to be done in StarCraft 2 when the time comes. With everything that's going on they may decide not to even enter the realm of StarCraft 2 at this point, who knows, but I'm confident that had this whole IP rights issue never begun they inevitably would have embraced SC2 when it made sense to do so. Y'know, after the game had a few patches and was more balanced.
We can argue for pages that KeSPA didn't grow esports in Korea, OGN did. Or MBC did. Or whatever else you want to argue for. But the fact remains, the system we have now for progaming in South Korea works and it works well. You're not just fucking with the system, you're tearing it apart at the seams. This system works, leave it alone. We may not just be looking at the death of Brood War if Gretech/Blizz win but we may also be looking at a very short progaming life for SC2 if they win as well. I'm sure that, for some, that isn't a big deal but it'd be pretty sad if SC2 only lived until the "next big thing" came around unlike what happened with Brood War.
It really pains me how some people jump straight to Gretech wanting to kill off BW. You're all completely avoiding what you don't want to hear, and that's that Gretech offered to have both leagues run side by side with KeSPA keeping the Proleague and Gretech doing the GSL. KeSPA said no. Plain and simple, just like they said no when Blizzard spent three long years trying to negotiate with them. (And dont give me this BS about unreasonable "demands" because all those "demands" were released by KeSPA representatives, not a neutral party.)
KeSPA had the option to submit to the current owners of the rights and give up just two days' timeslots so both leagues can run side by side without competing with each other. The truth of it is, since Gretech has the rights, KeSPA really has no say in the stipulations. They had a chance to continue running their league in cooperation, but they said no. They had a chance to buy the rights themselves before all of this went to hell, but they said no.
I respect KeSPA for flourishing the eSports scene in Korea, and I love watching BW. The fact is that all could have continued if KeSPA just gave in a little bit to the rightful owners of something they chose not to capitalize on themselves. I hate that they didn't. I hate that they stayed stubborn and refused to compromise with anyone, and now it's their own fault that it got this far. Yet everyone whos "anti-Blizzard/Gretech" chooses to skip over and ignore this fact, thinking it's entirely the fault of Gretech/Blizzard who want to simply kill BW without trying to cooperate. If you're going to support one side, at least do so acknowledging all the facts, not just ones that benefit your side.
The system works, but it is exploitive, unethical, and run by incompetent, blundering dunderheads.
Anyway, let me see if I understand this proposed meeting timeline correctly:
In the fourth meeting between Kespa and Gom, Kespa says they'll pay money if GOM leaves them alone. GOM says they don't want money, they just want both leagues to run "harmoniously". To this goal, they ask for some (2/5) primetime slots on OGN (which were slated for Proleague). Kespa replies that heck, no, you can't have our timeslots. GOM replies that if they aren't going to give them timeslots, they'll have to give them money to compensate for the lost business from proleague. Kespa replies that they won't pay anything as damages. Gom says that if they won't, then they can't have proleague, as it competes with them. Kespa asks if they really want to kill off proleague so it won't compete with them. Gom says yes. Everyone is angry.
In the aftermath, Kespa calls up OGN and blackmails them with threats of OSL cancellations into not running GSL. Gom fumes, and says they'll sue if proleague goes forward. Kespa forms "united league" to oppose SC2.
Really, this sounds almost mind-bendingly stupid on both accounts. Gom needlessly endangers their league's health by messing with proleague and thus getting their league pulled from OGN (ending what would have been a really, really good thing for the game and them), AND come off like pricks on top of it, Kespa says they'll pay money and then turns around and says they WONT pay money because it isn't phrased correctly, refuses to talk about GSL and accept anything that isn't "we'll pay you money and you leave us alone to do whatever we want"...gah, it's almost as if these people WANT to fail.
On September 10 2010 13:53 xBillehx wrote: KeSPA had the option to submit to the owners of the rights and give up just two days' timeslots so both leagues can run side by side without competing with each other. The truth of it is, since Gretech has the rights, KeSPA really has no say in the stipulations. They had a chance to continue running their league in cooperation, but they said no. They had a chance to buy the rights themselves before all of this went to hell, but they said no.
Except those rights are questionable and until they are legally recognized, they mean nothing.
And I'm pretty sure no one would give anything to a startup competitor in return for nothing.
On September 10 2010 01:43 IamAnton wrote: SC2 is the future of esports, good riddance to Kespa's useless organization. Korea will be a much better place when every friggin event dosnt need to be controlled bt Kespa.
Well, you obviously prefer those event to be controlled by Blizzard. Heres some fact: Kespa's stream n VoDs were free whereby your dear Blizz tried to charge $50/fan/month to watch those (they loosen it up a bit now since they realised that they were shitting in their own mouth, but we all know they did). This also shows that they have no interest in improving their fanbase (if anything, they want to shrink them if it means a little more money), and a scene without fans = not happening.
For those who said "Blizzard tried to negotiate with Kespa for three years", do yourself a favor and read up http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128517 ... Check out the terms that Blizzard came up with, and come back to tell us if they resemble any sort of "negotiation".
Until Gretech is proven the winner in court, i dont think that people should assume that they own all the legal rights (like many have claimed in the recent post).''
And i would like to mention it again, that whatever Kespa did in the past is irrelevant to this current argument of whether Kespa is right, or Gretech is.
There's also another problem. Sc didn't really get popular until BW got released but SC2 is being seperated into 3 games, a total of $110 ( ithink), and with 2 years between the expansions, without these expansions SC2 is incomplete for full play and will be horribly imbalanced until all 3 are released and I also guess 2-3 years of patching before it's balanced at BW level, that is 6-7 years to wait, 4 just for expansions which are crucial....... And with proleague destroyed (also the team structure kespa uses) most programmers would probably be forced to just give up SC and do something else which slows down development of new strategies. In the end I think SC2 is an esports for westerners rather then the Koreans who are used to how BW works.
On September 10 2010 14:02 Captain Peabody wrote: Really, this sounds almost mind-bendingly stupid on both accounts. Gom needlessly endangers their league's health by messing with proleague and thus getting their league pulled from OGN (ending what would have been a really, really good thing for the game and them), AND come off like pricks on top of it, Kespa says they'll pay money and then turns around and says they WONT pay money because it isn't phrased correctly, refuses to talk about GSL and accept anything that isn't "we'll pay you money and you leave us alone to do whatever we want"...gah, it's almost as if these people WANT to fail.
What a mess...
This is how I feel. In my mind I think about an alternate universe where Blizzard step into the esports world with the idea of control. I imagine the huge infusion of fans from the new game joining with the old, the two running side by side like SF3/SF4 at SBO or SF2/SF4 at EVO. Brood War would retain most of the prime time slots and stay as the top draw until when and if SC2 and its expansions proves itself as a game and with the viewers.
I remember the day SF3 came out on the scene, how exciting it was, and how the tourney scene wasn't gripped with a political battle threatening the health of both. Hell even till this day, a 13 year old game and a 2 year old game is played side by side. SF4 didn't tear the scene apart, it just added to it. I see that and look upon it with envy. Money and greed hasn't ruined that one yet. Maybe there's no way SC2 will ever coexist with BW. I hope they do, for everyone's sake.
On September 10 2010 09:09 domovoi wrote: I'm surprised so many people are willing to side with a government-backed cartel (KeSPA) who treats its employees like dirt, as Progamers essentially have no negotiation leverage when all the teams are colluding with government approval.
Woah! Hold on! So you're KeSPA treats their employees like dirt. I'm assuming you mean players. Well, you see, KeSPA is the reason why non-top5 progamers do not live a miserable life like they used to several years ago.
How is Blizzard/Gretech treating thep players then? KeSPA corporations fork millions of dollars to provide housing and food for all their progamers (afaik some practice partners too). If that's treating people like dirt, then what are you going to call Blizzard's attitude, which is basically "for all we care you may as well starve for the next month if you don't win anything"...
I may not agree with how KeSPA handles the whole FA thing, but they're by far the lesser evil.
Between BW and SC2, whichever game "survives" should be determined by whichever game attracts the most talent and the most viewers without any monopolistic coercion involved. In terms of which party is impeding this process the most, it clearly must be KeSPA and its iron-grip over progamers and a large portion of broadcast rights. That Blizzard is threatening to kill BW through its IP rights is despicable as well, but that won't happen until there's a court order. In the meantime, KeSPA continues to wield its artificial cartel powers to handicap any attempt for SC2 to gain ground in South Korea. You people are giving them too much leeway for establishing the esports scene; KeSPA should certainly be commended for that, but it is not necessary for the survival of Proleague for KeSPA to wield monopoly power over professional gamers and broadcast rights, assuming Proleague can stand on its own.
Hah, monopolictic coercion? That is exactly what Gretech is doing. They're trying to bully OGN/MBC into broadcasting GSL on their channels and during primetime at that (maybe even getting rid of PL altogether...).
How is KeSPA impeding anything? As regards SC2, they're more or less staying neutral. They're not investing their own resources (money, channels, players) to promote SC2 (because of how Blizzard treated them), that's all. It's Gretech's job to attract the players/sponsors/channels... On the other hand, Gretech/Blizzard want to destroy the BW scene.
It costs millions of dollars a year to sustain a progaming team. KeSPA corporations have every right to tell their players not to compete in any SC2 events considering KeSPA and Blizzard are at odds. Progamers are not slaves - they can leave the team if they want to, you know?
This discussion is going no where it's either people going to hop on to their respective believes which is Pro Blizzard/ Gretech or Kespa . Lets look at things objectively as a fan of bw since the day i pop in the cd into my comp I am definitely on Kespa side as the game I love and had fun throughout my whole life is going to get destroyed because of greedy Gretech with their intrusive maneuver in getting our established Pro league into shambles . All gretech got to do is forgot KOREA and do their bloody business in America as what they are doing is definitely is not profitable why destroy your source of income ? Kespa has been paying loyalty to Blizzard through using their game for years now that's clearly not logical . In my opinion blizzard should just create another league of their own (GSL) which they did and leave our BW alone .Sc2 maybe Frankenstein creation made out by blizzard and now its trying to forcefully feed us into our mouth .
On September 10 2010 13:53 xBillehx wrote: It really pains me how some people jump straight to Gretech wanting to kill off BW. You're all completely avoiding what you don't want to hear, and that's that Gretech offered to have both leagues run side by side with KeSPA keeping the Proleague and Gretech doing the GSL. KeSPA said no.
No, it was KeSPA that wanted the leagues to run side by side. Gretech wanted to bully KeSPA into moving ProLeague to a worse timeslot.
How about Gretech takes care of broadcasting GSL themselves instead of trying to force OGN and MBC to broadcast it on their channels, using their resources, while moving their league to a worse timeslot?
Plain and simple, just like they said no when Blizzard spent three long years trying to negotiate with them. (And dont give me this BS about unreasonable "demands" because all those "demands" were released by KeSPA representatives, not a neutral party.)
Blizzard made an official response as regards the NDA breach. They've never denied ANY of the claims by KeSPA. They just said they're upset that KeSPA broke the NDA. They had the opportunity. It proves that KeSPA representatives were telling the truth.
Not to mention Blizzard kept quiet regarding the accusations of Blizzard breaking off the negotiations whenever SC2 got delayed. They never had the intention to come to any sort of agreement. They simply wanted the negotiations breakdown to coincide with the release of SC2...
KeSPA had the option to submit to the current owners of the rights and give up just two days' timeslots so both leagues can run side by side without competing with each other. The truth of it is, since Gretech has the rights, KeSPA really has no say in the stipulations. They had a chance to continue running their league in cooperation, but they said no.
They don't have the right until the court says so.
And, no, moving ProLeague to a worse timeslot, while GSL gets to be broadcasted on OGN and/or MBC is not co-operation. It's extortion.
They had a chance to buy the rights themselves before all of this went to hell, but they said no.
No, they did not.
The terms Blizzard gave to KeSPA were specifically designed so that KeSPA will never accept them:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
6. Additional contracts of the progamers with Blizzard that override the contracts between the progamers and their teams.
How many of them apply to Gretech? Practically none.
1. Gretech got a 3 year contract easily, while Blizzard demanded KeSPA to accept a 1-year contract (which is ridiculous; KeSPA was supposed to invest into SC2 just so that Activision-Blizzard could raise the fees tenfold for the next year?).
2. Gretech had some leagues that wouldn't be even possible without Blizzard's support. Their sponsors were crappy compared to those attracted by KeSPA, and unlike KeSPA, they did not enjoy complete freedom for the last several years. Not to mention Gretech is some small company compared to OGN/MBC?other KeSPA corporations, and it does not have the government's approval to be THE governing body for eSports in Korea.
3. Gretech did not disclose how that part of the contract work in their case. I'm assuming the fees are smaller simply because PL/MSL/OSL are MUCH bigger/more popular events.
4. Gretechs owns just couple crappy shows nobody even watches, they're not a TV station. On the other hand, OGN/MBC have produced dozens of quality shows they invested tons of money into. Blizzard wanted the ownership of pretty much all the content produced by OGN/MBC. Gretech had hardly anything to lose here, they produce barely any content to start with.
5. KeSPA consists of some of the biggest corporations in Korea and has tied with the government. MBC/OGN produce not only BW content but also for many other games. To demand the right to audit KeSPA is ridiculous of Blizzard. On the other hand, Gretech is just a small company.
6. Again, Gretech had nothing to lose here. They do not own any proteams. KeSPA, on the other hand, forks probably hundreds of millions of dollars a year (total) to sustain its teams.
I respect KeSPA for flourishing the eSports scene in Korea, and I love watching BW. The fact is that all could have continued if KeSPA just gave in a little bit to the rightful owners of something they chose not to capitalize on themselves. I hate that they didn't. I hate that they stayed stubborn and refused to compromise with anyone, and now it's their own fault that it got this far. Yet everyone whos "anti-Blizzard/Gretech" chooses to skip over and ignore this fact, thinking it's entirely the fault of Gretech/Blizzard who want to simply kill BW without trying to cooperate. If you're going to support one side, at least do so acknowledging all the facts, not just ones that benefit your side.
Blizzard not only wants to kill BW, but also does nothing to help esports flourish. Gretech's GSL and money distribution model, as well as stating that they don't want a teamleague is a MASSIVE step backwards.
"The system works, but it is exploitive, unethical, and run by incompetent, blundering dunderheads."
Then what are you going to call the system Blizzard/Gretech are setting up, which basically turns progaming into treasure hunting it used to be nearly a decade ago? ;/
KeSPA might do many things better, but Blizzard/Gretech do them much worse. KeSPA invests tons of money so that progamers may have a steady pay and quite good living conditions. They know what they're getting into when they sign up for a team.
On September 10 2010 16:56 SaturnAttack wrote: I remember the day SF3 came out on the scene, how exciting it was, and how the tourney scene wasn't gripped with a political battle threatening the health of both. Hell even till this day, a 13 year old game and a 2 year old game is played side by side. SF4 didn't tear the scene apart, it just added to it. I see that and look upon it with envy. Money and greed hasn't ruined that one yet. Maybe there's no way SC2 will ever coexist with BW. I hope they do, for everyone's sake.
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them?
You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene.
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them?
You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene.
I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans. They owned the market for that long that they developed this arrogant posture thinking they deserve to do whatever they want. Did they really think Blizzard would just sit and wait for SC2 to take off as an e-sport in korea by itself? Blizzard isn't the small developer it was back in 1998 and it sure as hell isn't giving up the money that their games are producing beyond the actual sales.
If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant.
This whole debate reminds me a lot of magic the gathering after the first major rules change and then again after the new card design was revealed. All the people saying that the game will drop in sales and lose all it's players were wrong because they were just blindly holding on to the past even if it was completely irrational.
I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans.
It's not all about money, for the pro teams sure, but KeSPA is a non-profit organization. KeSPA isn't making money, the pro teams are. Is it about money? Yes, but it just so happens that the KeSPA side is benefiting the fans of Brood War, while the Blizz/Gretech side is benefiting potential fans.
Can Brood War compete with StarCraft II? Yes, very easily. Most professional Counter Strike players are playing 1.6 and not Counter-Strike Source. As of right now the best RTS players in South Korea are playing Brood War, not StarCraft II. And guess what, if KeSPA wins this court case and ProLeague for Brood War is allowed to continue then Brood War will continue to dominant SC2 in terms of viewers and money. Blizz/Gretech know this and that's why they're trying to murder ProLeague and professional Brood War, that's why Blizzard never really wanted to sell KeSPA broadcasting rights.
If a ProLeague for StarCraft II develops and if after HotS and the Protoss expansion the game drastically changes to become much more APM centric to a point where the skill levels are as drastically different as Brood War and to a point where the game is as interesting to watch as Brood War then yes, then and only then will SC2 reach a larger fan base in South Korea (which is all that really matters). Or if Blizz/Gretech succeed in destroying Brood War as we know it.
Now, as for the rest of the world, I don't see it happening. Professional gaming just isn't that popular outside of South Korea, not even among gamers. In my gaming community that I belong to I am the only person who cares about pro Brood War or SC2. There are a handful of people interested in invite level TF2 however none of them really keep up with it or care that much about it. SC2 isn't going to develop in other countries the way Brood War did in South Korea, it sucks and I really wish it was different but I honestly can't see it happening. Now, would it be awesome if it did and we had ProLeague and StarLeagues in America being broadcast on ESPN or other game broadcasters? Hell yes. But I don't foresee that happening for any video game in the next decade or so.
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them?
You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene.
I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans. They owned the market for that long that they developed this arrogant posture thinking they deserve to do whatever they want. Did they really think Blizzard would just sit and wait for SC2 to take off as an e-sport in korea by itself? Blizzard isn't the small developer it was back in 1998 and it sure as hell isn't giving up the money that their games are producing beyond the actual sales.
If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant.
This whole debate reminds me a lot of magic the gathering after the first major rules change and then again after the new card design was revealed. All the people saying that the game will drop in sales and lose all it's players were wrong because they were just blindly holding on to the past even if it was completely irrational.
(sorry for the spelling/english, I'm a bit rusty)
I dont know how Kespa screw over their customers and fans, right now as a fan I can watch and enjoy pro gaming for free in an stable enviroment, maybe you are talking about Blizzard which has made nothing for BW in several years?. The most funny thing about your statement is your claim "If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded ", lol, not even Blizzard and Gretech are sure about SC2 being an e-sport, if they would, they just could grow SC2 in Korea in a fast way without touching BW, so if BW cant compete against SC2 why is the fear expressed by some demands to Kespa?, let me know please. Blizzard can make whatever they want with SC2 and, we, BW fans dont care, in fact they are doing that, asocciating with a small company (Gretech) and impossing a tournament format where they have total control. The fate of SC2 is not marked for BW but for itself, dont forget that if SC2 continues to be the boring game to watch that it is now, it wont suceed even if it is the only pc game in the planet.
if you want * pro gaming clans / teams * payment on regular basis * payment for b-teamers * but only huge tournaments -> then youre with kespa
if you want * no pro gamer salary * money based on tournament prizes * no teamleagues -> then youre with blizz
this is how i see it. the only problem i see with this is: how could top pro gamers like flash or jaedong exist in a world like the one blizzard wants? this is not like poker, where you dont have to train. this is not like golf or boxing, where you can train alone. you need those practice partners which are not your opponents...
Mhm, as I've said before in this thread, without KeSPA and the ProLeague system most of the pro BW players we have today wouldn't be there. So I'd add to that list that if you like the idea of a handful of people being the best SC2 players for the next decade that you'll side with Blizz/Gretech.
Really, without the pro teams system of KeSPA once a few players get established and are the dominant ones winning the GSL and such they'll be the only top players for the entirety of SC2's lifetime just like every video game besides Brood War.
On September 10 2010 23:33 overt wrote: [...] Yes, but it just so happens that the KeSPA side is benefiting the fans of Brood War, while the Blizz/Gretech side is benefiting potential fans.[...]
TO be honest i cant even see how Blizz's trying to benefit its potential fans. Charging for VoDs n streams will only deter fans away, if anything.. The only one that seem to get benefitted seems like Blizz's picket..
It seems with the current responses, to me that neither side is very willing to "bend" from their current stance....
For either side to really benefit from the current situation, both sides need to be willing to come to a compromise... meaning if they both make a small sacrifice, they could both profit off of a deal.
On September 07 2010 13:49 Murderotica wrote: Fuck yes. Fuck SC2 and fuck Gretech. Dirty greedy bastards with no respect, just dollar signs imprinted on their eyes. If progame teams boycott SC2 leagues then BW might just live on. Please God, swift justice!
Fuck yes. Fuck BW and fuck KespA. Greedy, butthurt corporation afraid to lose power. If enough people get into sc2, and gretech throws enough money at it, then BW might finally die, please God, let it die!
doesnt sound so good turned the other way, does it? its too bad most of the rest of the world feels this way, cause like bw or not, kespa had a choke hold on it and starved everyone but koreans out of it.
Some people have mentioned that KeSPA isn't in it for the money because they are a non-profit organization. That's like saying RIAA isn't being a dick about copyright for the money because they too are a non-profit org. The fact is, both are trade associations that represent the interests of for-profit entities. But, anyway, the argument that they're doing it for the money is a stupid argument. It's actually good everyone is doing it for the money, it makes shaping their incentives to benefit eSports as a whole much easier.
Woah! Hold on! So you're KeSPA treats their employees like dirt. I'm assuming you mean players. Well, you see, KeSPA is the reason why non-top5 progamers do not live a miserable life like they used to several years ago.
Personally, I think they do live a miserable life relative to the pittance they take in salary, but that's neither here nor there. KeSPA is most assuredly not the reason why there is money in the eSports industry. Yes, they deserve credit for marketing the game. But the viewers are the reason why the industry has money, and viewers aren't watching these matches out of some love for KeSPA. They're watching them because of the players.
How is Blizzard/Gretech treating thep players then? KeSPA corporations fork millions of dollars to provide housing and food for all their progamers (afaik some practice partners too). If that's treating people like dirt, then what are you going to call Blizzard's attitude, which is basically "for all we care you may as well starve for the next month if you don't win anything"...
I may not agree with how KeSPA handles the whole FA thing, but they're by far the lesser evil.
This isn't about who's more evil, and you guys are naive to frame it in such terms. This is about who is impeding the natural equilibrium of the market (whether it favors BW or SC2). The point about KeSPA is that right now, they hold monosopnistic power over the progamer labor market, because they are a government-approved cartel. It frankly shocks me that an industry with so many viewers and so much revenue pays its best players so little that they're willing to throw games for a mere $20,000. The only reason why this is is because the players have very little leverage when negotiating their contracts. It's either take KeSPA's pathetic wages and living conditions, or throw away everything you've worked for and do something else.
Because Gretech doesn't hold market power, whatever their payment scheme is will be handled by the market. If players prefer to live by tournament winnings, then so be it. If they prefer the team structure, then an organization will provide it, absent any monopolistic coercion. This is basic antitrust and labor economics.
Hah, monopolictic coercion? That is exactly what Gretech is doing. They're trying to bully OGN/MBC into broadcasting GSL on their channels and during primetime at that (maybe even getting rid of PL altogether...).
You'll have to explain. In what fashion is Gretech bullying others into broadcasting GSL? Do you mean because Gretech has exclusive SC2 broadcast rights? SC2 is playing second-fiddle (or perhaps even third-fiddle) to the market leader BW. There is no monopolistic coercion there, as BW and SC2 compete for the same labor inputs and viewers. The market power is held by KeSPA.
It's like saying MLB bullies Fox/ESPN/TBS into broadcasting baseball games. Fox/ESPN/TBS can just tell MLB to f*ck off if their demands become unreasonable, because they can always go broadcast football games instead.
How is KeSPA impeding anything? As regards SC2, they're more or less staying neutral. They're not investing their own resources (money, channels, players) to promote SC2 (because of how Blizzard treated them), that's all. It's Gretech's job to attract the players/sponsors/channels... On the other hand, Gretech/Blizzard want to destroy the BW scene.
That's hilarious. Gretech hasn't done anything to destroy BW, except make threats about broadcast rights (and who knows if such rights are enforceable, I don't even think it's clear under American Copyright law). On the other hand, the very fact that KeSPA controls the actions and broadcasts of the all-important labor input, i.e. the progamers, means that it is the party impeding the most. And the only reason why they can control their progamers so tightly is because they are a cartel and the progamers are unable to negotiate to allow them to play SC2 without sacrificing their livelihood.
It costs millions of dollars a year to sustain a progaming team. KeSPA corporations have every right to tell their players not to compete in any SC2 events considering KeSPA and Blizzard are at odds. Progamers are not slaves - they can leave the team if they want to, you know?
Again, the only reason why KeSPA can make such ridiculous demands of their players is because they have a cartel. SC2 is in its infancy and too much of a risk for a professional to completely cut off their source of sustainability. I frankly don't care who's at odds with whom. I only care that the market be allowed to proceed freely, and that requires players to play the games they want to. As consumers, this is the thing we should care about, not about what share of the surplus KeSPA, Blizzard and Gretech get from esports.
On September 07 2010 13:49 Murderotica wrote: Fuck yes. Fuck SC2 and fuck Gretech. Dirty greedy bastards with no respect, just dollar signs imprinted on their eyes. If progame teams boycott SC2 leagues then BW might just live on. Please God, swift justice!
Fuck yes. Fuck BW and fuck KespA. Greedy, butthurt corporation afraid to lose power. If enough people get into sc2, and gretech throws enough money at it, then BW might finally die, please God, let it die!
doesnt sound so good turned the other way, does it? its too bad most of the rest of the world feels this way, cause like bw or not, kespa had a choke hold on it and starved everyone but koreans out of it.
Yeah that would explain why KeSPA is trying so hard to kill GSL. The fact that KeSPA is so actively seeking to destroy competitive SC2 just shows how little faith they have in BW's continued success as an eSport.
Hmm, I guess that doesn't make any sense turned the other way either.
KeSPA choked everyone but the Koreans out of BW? Lolwut? Somehow I don't remember listing their efforts to kill BW outside of Korea among their complaints about KeSPA (and don't try to say KeSPA did this by killing GOM, GOM failed because it sucked even if TL liked having the English commentary, certainly not because KeSPA was afraid of BW in other countries). KeSPA's purpose as an organization is to regulate eSports in Korea; spreading eSports outside of the country is not their responsibility. And yet they (or at least they aren't preventing OGN) are reaching out to Chinese fans and eSports in a very powerful way by having the OSL Finals in Shanghai.
On September 10 2010 20:58 petelectro wrote: I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
On September 10 2010 23:00 petelectro wrote: If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant.
Repeating ad nauseum that BW is moribund in Korea and had no chance of growth at all isn't going to magically make it true. BW is doing fine like it or not, and even BW outside of Korea was doing fine until SC2 came out (no hard feelings on that count though). The reason BW is so good, even necessary, for eSports is because it has transcended the trend for competitive games to only last until the next big title. It surprises me when SC2 fans say they wouldn't mind BW dying so that it doesn't continue to detract from SC2. There is room for both; SC2 will succeed or fail on its own merits. BW dying, however, would be a very bad sign for SC2, a game not yet as developed or interesting to watch and a game which no one can say with any degree of certainty will ever get to that point. And considering how much SC2 owes BW, BW dying might even prevent SC2 from having the chance.
If BW were on the way out this thread probably wouldn't exist. The fact is that Gretech/Blizzard are trying to kill a mature and healthy BW scene in Korea.
There was a lot in your post that I wanted to address but I'm really just going to focus on this one snippet:
On September 11 2010 03:00 domovoi wrote: This isn't about who's more evil, and you guys are naive to frame it in such terms. This is about who is impeding the natural equilibrium of the market (whether it favors BW or SC2). The point about KeSPA is that right now, they hold monosopnistic power over the progamer labor market, because they are a government-approved cartel. It frankly shocks me that an industry with so many viewers and so much revenue pays its best players so little that they're willing to throw games for a mere $20,000. The only reason why this is is because the players have very little leverage when negotiating their contracts. It's either take KeSPA's pathetic wages and living conditions, or throw away everything you've worked for and do something else.
"Government-approved cartel" is rhetoric and it's just as bad as picking one side because it's the lesser of two evils. The best Pro Brood War players are being paid a very good salary, probably better than any salary I'll ever make. The mediocre players can get bad pay too but it's still better than any other professional gamer at that level. A mere $20,000 per game is an absolutely hilarious statement. For all we know the people involved in match fixing threw more than one game, sure most of them say they only threw a single game but these are people who got involved in illegal betting so I don't know how much credence I'd give to what they claim now. $20,000 for throwing a game is a good sum of money and it's likely that at least some of these players threw more than one game.
It's funny that people bring up the "horrible living conditions" from time to time. Most of the players on these teams practice more than what they're required to by the team. So they're already spending more time than they have to in front of a computer and practicing by choice. Their beds look just fine, sure they have roommates but so do all professional athletes (it just so happens that your room is a different hotel each week). And they're fed too, the food is paid for by the team. Sorry but, unless you have documented examples of coaches like beating their players or players having to sleep on concrete in their own feces I can't buy that "pathetic living conditions" bullshit.
Now, you mentioned salaries and I'm glad because I would agree with you. I think it'd be nice if Brood War could have an actual Player's Union of some sort similar to the NFL. With minimum salaries and something that gives players an avenue to actually address concerns. But let's be realistic, eSports is new and Brood War is still the king of it. It's the only system that works and is sustainable in eSports history. It's going to take some time for salaries to be fair for all players and it's going to take some time for players to really be able to speak out on issues that effect them. This isn't necessarily KeSPA's fault either, it's what happens to any new sport. It'll take some time for the players to really have rights like athletes in other sports have but to simply blame KeSPA for a lack of player's rights is not only irresponsible but incredibly unfair.
"Government-approved cartel" is rhetoric and it's just as bad as picking one side because it's the lesser of two evils.
It's not rhetoric. It's simply to illustrate that antitrust laws are unlikely to apply. MLB is a government-approved cartel as well, but at least there's the fairly powerful MLBPA to represent player interests (unfortunately one of the bigger issues is that they don't adequately represent the interests of young/future players, who are paid extremely low wages for the value they provide to the team, but that's a different discussion.)
The best Pro Brood War players are being paid a very good salary, probably better than any salary I'll ever make. The mediocre players can get bad pay too but it's still better than any other professional gamer at that level. A mere $20,000 per game is an absolutely hilarious statement. For all we know the people involved in match fixing threw more than one game, sure most of them say they only threw a single game but these are people who got involved in illegal betting so I don't know how much credence I'd give to what they claim now. $20,000 for throwing a game is a good sum of money and it's likely that at least some of these players threw more than one game.
I meant $20,000 in total, not per game. Apparently it was something like $5,000 per game, which, for something illegal and likely to end one's career, is a pittance.
Anyway the very best players make something like $200,000 per year. This is pretty low for the absolute best players in a very popular sport. I know many normal people who make more than that...
It's funny that people bring up the "horrible living conditions" from time to time. Most of the players on these teams practice more than what they're required to by the team. So they're already spending more time than they have to in front of a computer and practicing by choice. Their beds look just fine, sure they have roommates but so do all professional athletes (it just so happens that your room is a different hotel each week). And they're fed too, the food is paid for by the team. Sorry but, unless you have documented examples of coaches like beating their players or players having to sleep on concrete in their own feces I can't buy that "pathetic living conditions" bullshit.
Being forced to live in what is basically a glorified dormitory is pretty pathetic for the very best players in the world. I mean, I'm just an average guy on the internet and I probably make more than the vast majority of BW progamers, work less hours and own my own place. These people are prodigies at this game, yet they live worse than the average upper-middle class American!
Now, you mentioned salaries and I'm glad because I would agree with you. I think it'd be nice if Brood War could have an actual Player's Union of some sort similar to the NFL. With minimum salaries and something that gives players an avenue to actually address concerns. But let's be realistic, eSports is new and Brood War is still the king of it. It's the only system that works and is sustainable in eSports history. It's going to take some time for salaries to be fair for all players and it's going to take some time for players to really be able to speak out on issues that effect them. This isn't necessarily KeSPA's fault either, it's what happens to any new sport. It'll take some time for the players to really have rights like athletes in other sports have but to simply blame KeSPA for a lack of player's rights is not only irresponsible but incredibly unfair.
I don't "fault" KeSPA for doing what's in their economic interests. But I won't root for them over Gretech when Gretech is the only semblance of competition that will give progamers some leverage.
Anyway the very best players make something like $200,000 per year. This is pretty low for the absolute best players in a very popular sport. I know many normal people who make more than that... [...]
Lol is it just me or you are saying that Brood War is a "very popular sport" now? Is it s'posed to be comparable to popular sports like soccer, basketball, really? Flash made 400k last year, and i would very much like to hear about how its low compared to other eSports.
Hell lets say he made 30k+/month, which other eSport have more than 10 players earning that much a year.. Like it or not, Brood War is far and away the eSport where players' total salaries are the highest, other eSport just cant begin to compare.
If you play DotA (or follow the scene), you ll realise that as the scene struggles to grow, how much of a "model of heaven" Brood War's scene is in comparison.
Anyway the very best players make something like $200,000 per year. This is pretty low for the absolute best players in a very popular sport. I know many normal people who make more than that... [...]
Lol is it just me or you are saying that Brood War is a "very popular sport" now? Is it s'posed to be comparable to popular sports like soccer, basketball, really? Flash made 400k last year, and i would very much like to hear about how its low compared to other eSports.
I don't think he's trying to say $400,000 / year is a pittance. You're right it's the largest salary in eSports that I'm aware of but I believe he's debating the true value BW players provide and the fact that their salaries don't reflect that. For example, although Flash is highly compensated the true value he supplies (the ads he sells, the merchandise he moves, the marketing he provides) is not represented in his salary because he lacks leverage.
He's a compulsory member of an organization of which there is no alternative, KeSPA.
On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote: From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Newer does not mean better. It does not mean advancement of E-sports. Get that stigma out of your head.
No newer doesn't always mean better. But in this case, can you give me a logical argument explaining why SCII is not better than BW?
(I'm asking you to compare the two multiplayer games, ignoring all of the non-game stuff that surrounds this issue.)
Kespa are the ones who don't respect Blizzards IP... They could have had exclusive access to SC2, and organise tournaments for it whenever they wanted if only they respected Blizzards IP and payed a licensing fee for BW tourny's straight up.
To turn around now and say they'll do it, to Gretech, is too little too late. They were the ones who screwed up in the first place.
I'm not saying Gretech aren't being idiots here (quite the opposite) but what really are Blizzard supposed to do? They made something special. And a bunch of people decided to make money off that without paying any respect to the people who made it. It's the equivalent of running a movie theater and charging people to watch pirated movies.
Blizzard aren't the bad guys here, they are just protecting their IP. If theres anyone to be pissed at it's Kespa (for their lack of respect earlier) and Gretech for their stubbornness now.
On September 10 2010 17:50 maybenexttime wrote: Woah! Hold on! So you're KeSPA treats their employees like dirt. I'm assuming you mean players. Well, you see, KeSPA is the reason why non-top5 progamers do not live a miserable life like they used to several years ago.
On September 10 2010 20:07 maybenexttime wrote: "The system works, but it is exploitive, unethical, and run by incompetent, blundering dunderheads."
Then how are you going to call the system Blizzard/Gretech are setting up, which basically turns progaming into treasure hunting it used to be nearly a decade ago? ;/
KeSPA might do many things better, but Blizzard/Gretech do them much worse. KeSPA invests tons of money so that progamers may have a steady pay and quite good living conditions. They know what they're getting into when they sign up for a team.
In the end, 1v1 Starcraft is not a team sport. If you look at most non-team sports, you'll find that the players do not receive a salary. There is prize money and sponsorships.
Look at tennis: If players earn enough, they keep traveling to tournaments on the ATP tour. If not, they supplement their income by coaching, or do something else. The same goes for most non-team olympic sports.
Poker, Billiards etc: All the income is from tournaments with prize money.
Boxing, chess etc: Matches are set up with a competitor (or his promoter) negotiating a fee for participating in a match (possibly with a bonus for winning). There are also tournaments with prize money.
Does the quality of these sports suffer because there is no fixed salary for lower tier competitors? I don't think so. Some people play these sports for fun. Those who invest the time to try and become professionals take a chance. If they are good, they keep at it. If not, they use the skills they acquired to do something related to the sport, or do something else entirely. Why should BW/SCII be any different?
It comes down to whether you want progaming to be primarily a sport or a form of entertainment. In the former case, the focus is entirely on the best player winning. This is encouraged by having open tournaments, sponsorships and no salaries. In the second case, the goal is to put on a good show. (Think Rollerderby in the 1970's, with costumes, stage names and all that jazz.) This is encouraged by having a fixed stable of competitors who receive a salary.
P.S.: Cycling is an exception to this (members of teams receive salaries), but I would argue that it is a team sport: There are one or two top racers on each team. The rest train to get better, but part of their job is setting the time for the top racers etc.
On September 11 2010 12:36 skipgamer wrote: Why is Blizzard made out to be the bad guy here?
Kespa are the ones who don't respect Blizzards IP... They could have had exclusive access to SC2, and organise tournaments for it whenever they wanted if only they respected Blizzards IP and payed a licensing fee for BW tourny's straight up.
To turn around now and say they'll do it, to Gretech, is too little too late. They were the ones who screwed up in the first place.
I'm not saying Gretech aren't being idiots here (quite the opposite) but what really are Blizzard supposed to do? They made something special. And a bunch of people decided to make money off that without paying any respect to the people who made it. It's the equivalent of running a movie theater and charging people to watch pirated movies.
Blizzard aren't the bad guys here, they are just protecting their IP. If theres anyone to be pissed at it's Kespa (for their lack of respect earlier) and Gretech for their stubbornness now.
All of your concerns have already been addressed in this thread. Blizzard gave KeSPA a deal they knew KeSPA wouldn't accept and it was obvious that Blizzard didn't want to sell the IP rights to KeSPA because they want to see pro BW die.
Please read the thread, this isn't about them protecting their IP it's about money. There's money to be gained on both sides, sure, but the pro teams are seeking to continue making money so that they aren't all out of a job in a few months. Blizz/Gretech are just trying to line their pockets.
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them?
You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene.
I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans. They owned the market for that long that they developed this arrogant posture thinking they deserve to do whatever they want. Did they really think Blizzard would just sit and wait for SC2 to take off as an e-sport in korea by itself? Blizzard isn't the small developer it was back in 1998 and it sure as hell isn't giving up the money that their games are producing beyond the actual sales.
If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant.
This whole debate reminds me a lot of magic the gathering after the first major rules change and then again after the new card design was revealed. All the people saying that the game will drop in sales and lose all it's players were wrong because they were just blindly holding on to the past even if it was completely irrational.
(sorry for the spelling/english, I'm a bit rusty)
I dont know how Kespa screw over their customers and fans, right now as a fan I can watch and enjoy pro gaming for free in an stable enviroment
Right now you are, still kespa is risking a law suit that could end that completely (which is part of the topic of this thread btw).
The most funny thing about your statement is your claim "If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded ", lol, not even Blizzard and Gretech are sure about SC2 being an e-sport, if they would, they just could grow SC2 in Korea in a fast way without touching BW, so if BW cant compete against SC2 why is the fear expressed by some demands to Kespa?, let me know please.
Because SC2 has a, believe it or not, realistic chance to take off as an esport in the west, which BW has not. Sure they want to start growing the game in Korea first although opening it up for the whole world, which is something that kespa neglected for years - and I don't mean foreign players, I mean opening up their own market by trying to really share the fascination of BW with the rest of the world - because the country is the freaking mekka for esports (yes, thanks to BW).
And yeah I know kespa is a "non-profit organisation" but you know exactly that they make decisions that end in money being made.
Blizzard can make whatever they want with SC2 and, we, BW fans dont care, in fact they are doing that, asocciating with a small company (Gretech) and impossing a tournament format where they have total control.
First off: I am a BW fan too. I love SC2 as well but I know that BW is the reason for that. I'm looking forward to see SC2 develop in the next years just like I loved to watch BW change over and over again. I'm not siding with blizzard in this because I want BW to die and all pro teams to vanish, I'm siding with them because without them there would be no kespa, no proleague.. heck not even this wonderful community. Putting SC2 on air before BW would have showed at least some respect and support for blizzard from kespa (but I'm pretty much the only one in here who thinks they (gretech/blizz) really wanted to have both leagues coexist...).
The fate of SC2 is not marked for BW but for itself, dont forget that if SC2 continues to be the boring game to watch that it is now, it wont suceed even if it is the only pc game in the planet.
Did you actually remember how starcraft was after it was released? I hate it so much that BW players, people who saw a game develop over a whole damn decade, say something like that. Do you remember how long it took to make SC really exciting to watch? With that in mind I think SC2 is doing awesome right now.
SC2 doesn't have potential in the west. The MLG is as far as you're gonna see SC2 go, it may get like actual televised matches for one single day just like Halo 2 did forever ago but please don't kid yourself into thinking SC2 is just going to take off in the west.
It'll grow into a sizeable eSport in South Korea and it could live right beside Brood War if it wasn't for Blizzard/Gretech. That's the bottom line. People also need to stop acting like Brood War and KeSPA are going to die and it's about to be the last ProLeague, the court case hasn't even begun yet, the lawsuit hasn't even been filed. No one, not even the parties involved, knows how the courts are going to rule on this issue. There's just as good of a chance that KeSPA will come out victorious if this goes to court as Blizz/Gretech. So, just calm down and have faith that Brood War will continue and that SC2 will flourish without having to kill BW off.
On September 11 2010 13:27 overt wrote: Blizzard gave KeSPA a deal they knew KeSPA wouldn't accept and it was obvious that Blizzard didn't want to sell the IP rights to KeSPA because they want to see pro BW die.
I read through most of the thread and I haven't seen that anywhere, at least nothing non-speculative.
I understand that most of the forum comes to this issue from being a long-time fan of the professional bw scene, and they don't want to see it die. But it has little to do with Blizzard itself, for people to say (as I've seen numeous times in this thread) that Blizzard wants to kill pro-leage/broodwar is pretty biased.
Sure Gretech probably have their motivations, but as I understand it, Gretech are Blizzards representatives on this matter because they were unable to reach a deal with Kespa (correct me if im wrong.)
To say that Blizzard itself (not gretech, blizzard) wants to see broodwar and the proleague die has no basis in fact at all, wouldn't one think that if that were their goal, the would be more aggressive?
On September 11 2010 13:27 overt wrote: Blizzard gave KeSPA a deal they knew KeSPA wouldn't accept and it was obvious that Blizzard didn't want to sell the IP rights to KeSPA because they want to see pro BW die.
I read through most of the thread and I haven't seen that anywhere, at least nothing non-speculative.
I understand that most of the forum comes to this issue from being a long-time fan of the professional bw scene, and they don't want to see it die. But it has little to do with Blizzard itself, for people to say (as I've seen numeous times in this thread) that Blizzard wants to kill pro-leage/broodwar is pretty biased.
Sure Gretech probably have their motivations, but as I understand it, Gretech are Blizzards representatives on this matter because they were unable to reach a deal with Kespa (correct me if im wrong.)
To say that Blizzard itself (not gretech, blizzard) wants to see broodwar and the proleague die has no basis in fact at all, wouldn't one think that if that were their goal, the would be more aggressive?
Gretech (Blizzard's representatives as you put it) did say something along the lines of "so be it" when kespa stated that agreeing with their terms would lead to the death of BW.
Gretech are Blizzard's representatives because their goals are aligned. Blizzard did not want to give kespa any reasonable contract. And you don't think that threatening kespa with a lawsuit to tear down the foundations of the BW scene (Proleague and MSL) is aggressive?
On September 11 2010 16:38 _awake_ wrote: Blizzard did not want to give kespa any reasonable contract.
Last time I'm replying... Because I see this over and over again as an argument to why Blizzard are the bad guys in this scenario, with absolutely no proof. (im talking about Blizzard, btw not Gretech, I can't stress this enough... I understand that Gretech's most recent negotiations had hefty demands regarding time-slots... What I'm talking about is back when Blizzard were negotiating with Kespa directly.)
I really would love for someone to prove this to me so that I may better understand the situation... The way I see it, Kespa said blizzard provided unreasonable terms, and Blizzard said they were nogatiating for years and Kespa never acknowledged Blizzard's rights to it's IP.
On September 11 2010 16:38 _awake_ wrote: Blizzard did not want to give kespa any reasonable contract.
Last time I'm replying... Because I see this over and over again as an argument to why Blizzard are the bad guys in this scenario, with absolutely no proof. (im talking about Blizzard, btw not Gretech, I can't stress this enough... I understand that Gretech's most recent negotiations had hefty demands regarding time-slots... What I'm talking about is back when Blizzard were negotiating with Kespa directly.)
I really would love for someone to prove this to me so that I may better understand the situation... The way I see it, Kespa said blizzard provided unreasonable terms, and Blizzard said they were nogatiating for years and Kespa never acknowledged Blizzard's rights to it's IP.
Not my fault you aren't reading, the page just before this one already addressed this issue.
The terms Blizzard gave to KeSPA were specifically designed so that KeSPA will never accept them:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
6. Additional contracts of the progamers with Blizzard that override the contracts between the progamers and their teams.
How many of them apply to Gretech? Practically none.
1. Gretech got a 3 year contract easily, while Blizzard demanded KeSPA to accept a 1-year contract (which is ridiculous; KeSPA was supposed to invest into SC2 just so that Activision-Blizzard could raise the fees tenfold for the next year?).
2. Gretech had some leagues that wouldn't be even possible without Blizzard's support. Their sponsors were crappy compared to those attracted by KeSPA, and unlike KeSPA, they did not enjoy complete freedom for the last several years. Not to mention Gretech is some small company compared to OGN/MBC?other KeSPA corporations, and it does not have the government's approval to be THE governing body for eSports in Korea.
3. Gretech did not disclose how that part of the contract work in their case. I'm assuming the fees are smaller simply because PL/MSL/OSL are MUCH bigger/more popular events.
4. Gretechs owns just couple crappy shows nobody even watches, they're not a TV station. On the other hand, OGN/MBC have produced dozens of quality shows they invested tons of money into. Blizzard wanted the ownership of pretty much all the content produced by OGN/MBC. Gretech had hardly anything to lose here, they produce barely any content to start with.
5. KeSPA consists of some of the biggest corporations in Korea and has tied with the government. MBC/OGN produce not only BW content but also for many other games. To demand the right to audit KeSPA is ridiculous of Blizzard. On the other hand, Gretech is just a small company.
6. Again, Gretech had nothing to lose here. They do not own any proteams. KeSPA, on the other hand, forks probably hundreds of millions of dollars a year (total) to sustain its teams.
There are plenty of threads for people to read up on if they wish but the demands given to KeSPA were most certainly unreasonable and it's more than just a coincidence that Gretech was given much looser terms than KeSPA.
This thread is a pretty good read as well. KeSPA is not 100% awesome in this, but surely as a gamer and someone who really does enjoy watching Brood War can see that Activision/Blizzard aren't interested in spreading eSports. They're interested in spreading SC2 in South Korea so that they can cash in. KeSPA, despite their many flaws, is actually invested in eSports and not video game sales.
And this may be the last thing I say about this, but, KeSPA has said numerous times that they're okay with paying for royalties. That should be enough for Blizzard if all they're really after is protecting their IP rights. As KeSPA has said, why they would even want royalties after KeSPA, progamers, and the fans of eSports have already made them tons of money off sales of Brood War doesn't make a lot of sense but KeSPA recognizes that royalties can be collected by Blizzard and they were okay with paying royalties. Why wasn't this enough for Blizzard/Activision?
On September 10 2010 19:28 maybenexttime wrote: 1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
6. Additional contracts of the progamers with Blizzard that override the contracts between the progamers and their teams.
"Government-approved cartel" is rhetoric and it's just as bad as picking one side because it's the lesser of two evils.
It's not rhetoric. It's simply to illustrate that antitrust laws are unlikely to apply. MLB is a government-approved cartel as well, but at least there's the fairly powerful MLBPA to represent player interests (unfortunately one of the bigger issues is that they don't adequately represent the interests of young/future players, who are paid extremely low wages for the value they provide to the team, but that's a different discussion.)
The best Pro Brood War players are being paid a very good salary, probably better than any salary I'll ever make. The mediocre players can get bad pay too but it's still better than any other professional gamer at that level. A mere $20,000 per game is an absolutely hilarious statement. For all we know the people involved in match fixing threw more than one game, sure most of them say they only threw a single game but these are people who got involved in illegal betting so I don't know how much credence I'd give to what they claim now. $20,000 for throwing a game is a good sum of money and it's likely that at least some of these players threw more than one game.
I meant $20,000 in total, not per game. Apparently it was something like $5,000 per game, which, for something illegal and likely to end one's career, is a pittance.
Anyway the very best players make something like $200,000 per year. This is pretty low for the absolute best players in a very popular sport. I know many normal people who make more than that...
It's funny that people bring up the "horrible living conditions" from time to time. Most of the players on these teams practice more than what they're required to by the team. So they're already spending more time than they have to in front of a computer and practicing by choice. Their beds look just fine, sure they have roommates but so do all professional athletes (it just so happens that your room is a different hotel each week). And they're fed too, the food is paid for by the team. Sorry but, unless you have documented examples of coaches like beating their players or players having to sleep on concrete in their own feces I can't buy that "pathetic living conditions" bullshit.
Being forced to live in what is basically a glorified dormitory is pretty pathetic for the very best players in the world. I mean, I'm just an average guy on the internet and I probably make more than the vast majority of BW progamers, work less hours and own my own place. These people are prodigies at this game, yet they live worse than the average upper-middle class American!
Now, you mentioned salaries and I'm glad because I would agree with you. I think it'd be nice if Brood War could have an actual Player's Union of some sort similar to the NFL. With minimum salaries and something that gives players an avenue to actually address concerns. But let's be realistic, eSports is new and Brood War is still the king of it. It's the only system that works and is sustainable in eSports history. It's going to take some time for salaries to be fair for all players and it's going to take some time for players to really be able to speak out on issues that effect them. This isn't necessarily KeSPA's fault either, it's what happens to any new sport. It'll take some time for the players to really have rights like athletes in other sports have but to simply blame KeSPA for a lack of player's rights is not only irresponsible but incredibly unfair.
I don't "fault" KeSPA for doing what's in their economic interests. But I won't root for them over Gretech when Gretech is the only semblance of competition that will give progamers some leverage.
GDP per capita in the United States is 46,000 USD. For South Korea it's 28,100 USD. $200,000 isn't doing too badly. Congratulations on having rich friends I guess because I'd say the upper limit of middle class in the States is like ~$120,000, but I frankly don't see the relevance unless you're thinking of NBA or NFL stars. You can't compare salaries for progamers with salaries for athletes in major sports such as baseball or American football or whatever. BW is not a major sport; I'm not sure how popular you think it is, but it's fairly niche even in Korea. Is the average player still underpaid? Probably. Does the match-fixing scandal reflect poorly on the compensation for progamers and the lack of support they have transitioning out of eSports? In my opinion, most definitely. Do you really think Gretech/Blizzard are going to provide better alternatives? They've already made clear that they have no intention of doing so. I'm also not sure how you can possibly suggest that Gretech will provide competition that will give progamers some leverage. The whole reason people are objecting to Blizzard/Gretech's demands is that they are trying to make sure that there is no competition from professional BW leagues. Not to mention that unless I'm severely misinformed, progamers aren't payed by KeSPA, but by the companies that sponsor their teams. If they required sponsors to pay higher salaries to their players, sponsors would likely end up pulling out and the scene would collapse.
SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors.
fuckin' brilliant. another attempt to squash the only league going on in korea with english commentary on-site.
can't these spastics drop the wall of china and find some way of doing like a time-share: 3 days of games each, 1 day off for the progamers to go out/have a fap/prepare.
SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors.
fuckin' brilliant. another attempt to squash the only league going on in korea with english commentary on-site.
can't these spastics drop the wall of china and find some way of doing like a time-share: 3 days of games each, 1 day off for the progamers to go out/have a fap/prepare.
do you have any experience following bw? do you have any idea how many games are played per week during the season? during the proleague, we have 6 matches a week, over 3 time slots. each of these matches can be up to 5 games, each game could be as long as half an hour, and then add in commercials. Now the MSL has at most one round playing each week, but they're long as fuck. same with OSL. how the hell do you fit that into 3 days. or even 4.
i know that might not be ideal, but surely it's a shitload better than gretech killing off pro bw or gom dying in the ass from a lack of support from progamers kept under lock and key by kespa.
On September 07 2010 14:27 xBillehx wrote: From what I understand with this summary, both BW and SC2 would have been able to air freely with permission and cooperation if KeSPA had just accepted the timeslot move (since BW is the older game) and threw in some GSL commercials. Both the BW fans and SC2 fans would have been happy freely able to watch their respective entertainment (and possibly both) without all this drama.
Obviously KeSPA wouldn't be happy taking the backseat and I'm sure the proteams wouldn't be happy with it either, since they've been the source of fantastic Starcraft entertainment for years. However, a new potential esport game came along and if the primary concern was for the growth of esports as a whole, wouldn't embracing that new potential be a goal?
Instead, no one wanted to budge and now we have "boycotting" (Did KeSPA ever intend on touching the Starcraft 2 market anyway?) and angry fans.
Of course, that ideal situation of both leagues operating together is probably never going to happen now, but really- the possibility for it to all work out was there and just passed right over.
Heres to hoping for as little damage to both BW and SC2 professional scenes as possible.
Don't give me your bullshit, you probe. BW is the better game, more popular, I hate sc2, Blizzard, Gom, and their shit. So sometimes negotiations suck. Blizzard is just acting generous. Why, cuz their greedy idiots want money. $$$$$$$ is all they care about really.
On September 07 2010 14:39 stormtemplar wrote: Never thought I'd say this, but GO KESPA! I think they have a fair shot at winning, especially since so many companies have money in broodwar, and also, more likely than not have some influence on the Korean government and more public support.
thats right! fans> game>money. No fans, no money, no enthusiasm or support. GO BW!!!!
On September 11 2010 12:36 skipgamer wrote: Why is Blizzard made out to be the bad guy here?
Kespa are the ones who don't respect Blizzards IP... They could have had exclusive access to SC2, and organise tournaments for it whenever they wanted if only they respected Blizzards IP and payed a licensing fee for BW tourny's straight up.
To turn around now and say they'll do it, to Gretech, is too little too late. They were the ones who screwed up in the first place.
I'm not saying Gretech aren't being idiots here (quite the opposite) but what really are Blizzard supposed to do? They made something special. And a bunch of people decided to make money off that without paying any respect to the people who made it. It's the equivalent of running a movie theater and charging people to watch pirated movies.
Blizzard aren't the bad guys here, they are just protecting their IP. If theres anyone to be pissed at it's Kespa (for their lack of respect earlier) and Gretech for their stubbornness now.
see my comment at the other probe. Well, Kespa did respect Ip rights, But blizzard was being an asshole, so yeah........ Fuck blizzard still
SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors.
fuckin' brilliant. another attempt to squash the only league going on in korea with english commentary on-site.
can't these spastics drop the wall of china and find some way of doing like a time-share: 3 days of games each, 1 day off for the progamers to go out/have a fap/prepare.
English commentary doesn't mean better, foreign fans should know their place in KeSPA's priorities, they don't give a fuck about you, KeSPA is created for Koreans.
Well. i didnd like what KESPA did 2 years ago with Gom Classic but what Gretech is doing now is far more dangerous: they basically try to kill BW so that its legacy/passion/teams/players/viewers go for SC 2 and then make money on it.
But this wont work, evem it comes to justice, coz KESPA and SC teams have paid their licenses for their SC copies. In the end it will come to that: how much of PL is Starcraft and how much is the show? And the game is just a platform where the mind athletes fight each other.
Wouldnt be ridicoulous if Adidas or Nike will fight in justice asking banning of the Olympics or World Championship because they invented another shoe and want another competition?
On September 12 2010 08:43 Phradamon wrote: Well. i didnd like what KESPA did 2 years ago with Gom Classic but what Gretech is doing now is far more dangerous: they basically try to kill BW so that its legacy/passion/teams/players/viewers go for SC 2 and then make money on it.
But this wont work, evem it comes to justice, coz KESPA and SC teams have paid their licenses for their SC copies. In the end it will come to that: how much of PL is Starcraft and how much is the show? And the game is just a platform where the mind athletes fight each other.
Wouldnt be ridicoulous if Adidas or Nike will fight in justice asking banning of the Olympics or World Championship because they invented another shoe and want another competition?
The athletes could easily use other shoes. I guess Kespa could focus on Counterstrike or something lol.
this thread is fucking raging. all these new fucking posters coming via sc2 who don't have respect for the beauty of the game of bw. there is just so much depth and evolution in the game. all this bullshit bout how sc2 is a better game... are you fucking serious?
BW is possibly the best game of all time, best RTS of all time without a doubt. no other RTS has ever lasted this long, and the metagame is just SICK give respect where its due. BW CAN compete with sc2 if fucking gretech/acitivsion would allow them. but no, they are just trying to squish BW out.
fuck activision/blizzard. if they gave those terms to kespa that they offered to gretech, they would gladly have payed whatever fees. however, kespa is dedicated to keeping the BW scene alive, which blizzard wants no part of.
all you fucking idiots supporting blizzard like blind fanboy will basically be eating your own words when the game you love gets pushed out by blizzard trying to force sc3 down your throats in the future. for blizzard/acitivsion, newer games is ALWAYS better for profits. thye dont give a shit about an old game and its wrong to try to destroy such a great eSports scene out of greed.
Kespa arent the brightest fuckers around but at least they are dedicated to free showings (do you see Kespa charge for OSL finals? i see blizzard try to charge for everything from blizzcon to invitational) or their streams? ppl are able to stream and upload youtube VODS. can you imagine someone uploading SC2 VODS? im sure they will be crushed by blizzard asap.
this thread is fucking raging. all these new fucking posters coming via sc2 who don't have respect for the beauty of the game of bw. there is just so much depth and evolution in the game. all this bullshit bout how sc2 is a better game... are you fucking serious?
BW is possibly the best game of all time, best RTS of all time without a doubt. no other RTS has ever lasted this long, and the metagame is just SICK give respect where its due. BW CAN compete with sc2 if fucking gretech/acitivsion would allow them. but no, they are just trying to squish BW out.
fuck activision/blizzard. if they gave those terms to kespa that they offered to gretech, they would gladly have payed whatever fees. however, kespa is dedicated to keeping the BW scene alive, which blizzard wants no part of.
all you fucking idiots supporting blizzard like blind fanboy will basically be eating your own words when the game you love gets pushed out by blizzard trying to force sc3 down your throats in the future. for blizzard/acitivsion, newer games is ALWAYS better for profits. thye dont give a shit about an old game and its wrong to try to destroy such a great eSports scene out of greed.
Kespa arent the brightest fuckers around but at least they are dedicated to free showings (do you see Kespa charge for OSL finals? i see blizzard try to charge for everything from blizzcon to invitational) or their streams? ppl are able to stream and upload youtube VODS. can you imagine someone uploading SC2 VODS? im sure they will be crushed by blizzard asap.
Won't buy Blizzard products anymore. Doesn't really matter since their game are a bit worse every year... The way they are selling S2 3 time its price by splitting the campaign is also just gross.
On September 13 2010 02:18 Biff The Understudy wrote: Won't buy Blizzard products anymore. Doesn't really matter since their game are a bit worse every year... The way they are selling S2 3 time its price by splitting the campaign is also just gross.
Yet, mindless Blizzard fanboy sheeps are buying into it.
On September 13 2010 02:18 Biff The Understudy wrote: Won't buy Blizzard products anymore. Doesn't really matter since their game are a bit worse every year... The way they are selling S2 3 time its price by splitting the campaign is also just gross.
Well, to be fair, there also will be an equivalent amount of playtime for 1 sc2 expansion to all of a broodwar expansion or so, and the quality of the missions in the first starcraft 2 (ie creativity of level design) are greater, in my opinion, as are the production quality. So that's kind of silly. I thought sc2 was good, but blizzard marketing and strategy is always worrying.
What a clusterfuck It's such a shame professional gaming has to come down to the money so much, but I guess that's just how the world works. After all that's happened I can't really say I side with KeSPA or Blizzard/Gretech, both sides have exemplified real douchbaggery.
On September 13 2010 02:51 dudeman001 wrote: What a clusterfuck It's such a shame professional gaming has to come down to the money so much, but I guess that's just how the world works. After all that's happened I can't really say I side with KeSPA or Blizzard/Gretech, both sides have exemplified real douchbaggery.
both sides are evil sides. however, one side wants to keep BW going and dont care if SC2 keeps going on. the other side wants BW dead and all the history along with team rivalries with it and just have sc2 continue on. its a pretty easy choice to make if you are a fan of the game.
On September 13 2010 01:57 Garaman wrote: this thread is fucking raging. all these new fucking posters coming via sc2 who don't have respect for the beauty of the game of bw. there is just so much depth and evolution in the game. all this bullshit bout how sc2 is a better game... are you fucking serious?
BW is possibly the best game of all time, best RTS of all time without a doubt. no other RTS has ever lasted this long, and the metagame is just SICK give respect where its due. BW CAN compete with sc2 if fucking gretech/acitivsion would allow them. but no, they are just trying to squish BW out.
fuck activision/blizzard. if they gave those terms to kespa that they offered to gretech, they would gladly have payed whatever fees. however, kespa is dedicated to keeping the BW scene alive, which blizzard wants no part of.
all you fucking idiots supporting blizzard like blind fanboy will basically be eating your own words when the game you love gets pushed out by blizzard trying to force sc3 down your throats in the future. for blizzard/acitivsion, newer games is ALWAYS better for profits. thye dont give a shit about an old game and its wrong to try to destroy such a great eSports scene out of greed.
Kespa arent the brightest fuckers around but at least they are dedicated to free showings (do you see Kespa charge for OSL finals? i see blizzard try to charge for everything from blizzcon to invitational) or their streams? ppl are able to stream and upload youtube VODS. can you imagine someone uploading SC2 VODS? im sure they will be crushed by blizzard asap.
KeSPA will be going on with the next season of Proleague, regardless of negotiations.
This somewhat puts me at ease.
This was to be expected. I want my court date, so I can watch as Gretech and Blizzard get the short-end of the shaft because there is no way they'll get what they're asking for. ^-^
***
Can you guys stop turning this into a SC2 versus BW?
On September 07 2010 13:05 Milkis wrote: - SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and "Many others" are forming an "Anti Blizzard" Line. Players under those companies are not allowed to partake in SC2 events. They block OGN from broadcasting the GSL through the board of directors. Apparently, they're trying to get all the progame teams to unify.
I've proudly worn my SKT tag ever since I joined Teamliquid. I'm dropping it because of this. I kinda like SKT, but mostly I'm just a big fan of BeSt. Bunkie is pretty cool, too. But Blizzard and its games hold a much bigger place in my heart than a team full of players I don't particularly care for, and which just happens to have my favorite player in the BW scene.
I wish you luck in the following proleagues and starleagues, SKT (provided they continue). But I will not be rooting for you.
On September 12 2010 08:43 Phradamon wrote: Well. i didnd like what KESPA did 2 years ago with Gom Classic but what Gretech is doing now is far more dangerous: they basically try to kill BW so that its legacy/passion/teams/players/viewers go for SC 2 and then make money on it.
But this wont work, evem it comes to justice, coz KESPA and SC teams have paid their licenses for their SC copies. In the end it will come to that: how much of PL is Starcraft and how much is the show? And the game is just a platform where the mind athletes fight each other.
Wouldnt be ridicoulous if Adidas or Nike will fight in justice asking banning of the Olympics or World Championship because they invented another shoe and want another competition?
but there isnt only one shoe! its more like banning the diving board from diving... the whole thing defines the sports. anyways, the blizzard philosophy seems to be "if it doesnt let us earn money (and costs us!), then kill it".
I just want to tell a story so that people can sit back and relax and smile a little :
In the land of Koreazeroth there is a mighty kingdom named Esportaeron, which is ruled by a great king named Browarthil Starcaras and his Knights of the Eternal Space. The citizens of this kingdom are often called Browarfans.
The great king has a son, titled Starcaras II, who is destined to succeed his father as the supreme ruler of Esportaeron.
Unfortunately, in a journey to the Northern Western land to kill a demon, the prince ended up finding an ancient artifact - a whispering sword named Gretecmourne- which in turn is controlled by a very powerful being known only by the name of "The Blizz King".
Finally, Prince Starcaras II returned, victorious over the evil he had faced in the Western land. All of Esportaeron rejoiced in festival, celebrating the long-awaited return of their heroic Prince. But something was amiss.
As he knelt before his father, a dark voice flooded Starcaras II's thoughts. He rose up, drew his sword, and approached the throne...
Will the fate of Esportaeron be the same as Lordaeron ? Will the fate of Browarthil Starcaras be the same as Terenas Menethil ? I hope not lol.
both sides are evil sides. however, one side wants to keep BW going and dont care if SC2 keeps going on. the other side wants BW dead and all the history along with team rivalries with it and just have sc2 continue on. its a pretty easy choice to make if you are a fan of the game.
If i remember correctly , Gretech/blizzard want The two leagues to exist together but at the same time want the Prime time slots scheduled for Proleague.
In the fourth negotiation, KeSPA asks Gretech how much they want. Gretech, rather than answering with an amount, they say they want an "Harmonious operation of both leagues"
Gretech wants Proleague's prime time slots. KeSPA finds this ridiculous.
Kespa says it doesn"t give a fuck about SC2 and thus will pay no heed to any requests.
Gretech gets angry and decides to flex it muscles with Blizzard at ringside ready to file a Lawsuit , which if it does happens , I'm pretty sure will be won by Blizzard.(Come on , it"s their game)
Gretech/Blizzard think the BW Scene has gone on long enough and since they no longer have any profit from it , the best option is to shut it down to eliminate competition.(Blizzard are Partners with Activison BTW ,the most evil gaming company in the World)
So neither side is any good if you ask me.It"s just a battle of egos between blizzard and Kespa that will bring down the BW Scene .(Sad , but it"s the Truth).
Atleast Kespa has a More reasonable point since a 13 year long tradition can"t just be abruptly killed due to a new Product that allows Blizzard to milk money.
IMHO the business model of Starcraft was: pay and receive a game, you can do whatever u want with it. From that point of view, I don't understand why Kespa even negotiate.
Came SC or BW with a end user agreement that denies organising events or broadcasting games?
Does anyone know how purchase agreement law works in korea? Is koreans intellectual property law comparable to the US model?
In the end, 1v1 Starcraft is not a team sport. If you look at most non-team sports, you'll find that the players do not receive a salary. There is prize money and sponsorships.
Look at tennis: If players earn enough, they keep traveling to tournaments on the ATP tour. If not, they supplement their income by coaching, or do something else. The same goes for most non-team olympic sports.
Poker, Billiards etc: All the income is from tournaments with prize money.
Boxing, chess etc: Matches are set up with a competitor (or his promoter) negotiating a fee for participating in a match (possibly with a bonus for winning). There are also tournaments with prize money.
Many individual sports work under a team structure. Chess, amateur boxing, wrestling (the sport, not WWF) all have teams.
Table tennis even has a champions' league similar to football or other team sports. It might be less well known but it has been running (under different names) since the 1960s.
Teams might share coaches, training venues or other resources. In some sports almost every player plays for a team, in others, like athletics, most top players don't.
I think the team structure makes a lot of sense for esports especially because it's underdeveloped. You can't build a sport on 5 professionals 20 semipros and many aspiring amateurs. At least I don't think you can. The only thing that needs to go is the rigid line between pros and amateurs.
On September 13 2010 02:18 Biff The Understudy wrote: Won't buy Blizzard products anymore. Doesn't really matter since their game are a bit worse every year... The way they are selling S2 3 time its price by splitting the campaign is also just gross.
Well, to be fair, there also will be an equivalent amount of playtime for 1 sc2 expansion to all of a broodwar expansion or so, and the quality of the missions in the first starcraft 2 (ie creativity of level design) are greater, in my opinion, as are the production quality. So that's kind of silly. I thought sc2 was good, but blizzard marketing and strategy is always worrying.
Well, that's still selling one game for the price of three.
The way theses companies sell "expansions" which are absolutely necessary to play a bit seriously and are more of a huge patch than a new game for the same price than the original is already what I call pure racket. Expanding the concept to THREE fucking games is thinking that people are idiots.
Starcraft 2 cost 60 dollars. So that means that for playing the wole thing, you'll have to pay 180 dollars. I mean seriously. 180$ for a video game. And then they need to kill brood war to make money out of the pro scene. And they made the biggest profit in history of video game by selling a month rental on WoW.
The whole Blizzard thing is a huge joke. I'd like to know the margin of their shareholders. Must be interesting. Well they can screw themselves, they won't get my money anymore. I'm feeling too old for this bullcrap.
On September 16 2010 11:43 GolemMadness wrote: Chess isn't really a team sport, except for the olympics. Or bughouse.
Many European countries have national team leagues that run through the year. Some top players do play for multiple teams (i.e in different championships) but some players play for a certain club exclusively and probably get salaries instead of match bonuses.
Just because the game itself is played between 2 players the match is still between the teams, just like in Proleague.
In the end, 1v1 Starcraft is not a team sport. If you look at most non-team sports, you'll find that the players do not receive a salary. There is prize money and sponsorships.
Look at tennis: If players earn enough, they keep traveling to tournaments on the ATP tour. If not, they supplement their income by coaching, or do something else. The same goes for most non-team olympic sports.
Poker, Billiards etc: All the income is from tournaments with prize money.
Boxing, chess etc: Matches are set up with a competitor (or his promoter) negotiating a fee for participating in a match (possibly with a bonus for winning). There are also tournaments with prize money.
If you think about it, archery is a team sport, and gymnastics too. Their structures are very similar to sc.
Disregarding the outcome, either result is bad for E-sport. Its like parent fighting over a child custody, either way the child suffer! SC2's scene will definitely takes more time to mature, T_T.
On September 25 2010 00:44 MuuMuuKnight wrote: Disregarding the outcome, either result is bad for E-sport. Its like parent fighting over a child custody, either way the child suffer! SC2's scene will definitely takes more time to mature, T_T.
The mother is a heroin addict and the father beats his wife starcraft baby has no love .
Except everyone can see through that and infer Gretech is Blizzard with a costume that doesnt fit. Im not sure how but lawyers could certainly play that in court.
On September 25 2010 00:44 MuuMuuKnight wrote: Disregarding the outcome, either result is bad for E-sport. Its like parent fighting over a child custody, either way the child suffer! SC2's scene will definitely takes more time to mature, T_T.
The mother is a heroin addict and the father beats his wife starcraft baby has no love .
Maybe grandpa (government) will step in and win the custody. Starcraft baby still has hope.
On September 25 2010 00:44 MuuMuuKnight wrote: Disregarding the outcome, either result is bad for E-sport. Its like parent fighting over a child custody, either way the child suffer! SC2's scene will definitely takes more time to mature, T_T.
The mother is a heroin addict and the father beats his wife starcraft baby has no love .
Maybe grandpa (government) will step in and win the custody. Starcraft baby still has hope.
what's starcraft II in this analogy? poor poor starcraft baby....
On September 25 2010 00:44 MuuMuuKnight wrote: Disregarding the outcome, either result is bad for E-sport. Its like parent fighting over a child custody, either way the child suffer! SC2's scene will definitely takes more time to mature, T_T.
The mother is a heroin addict and the father beats his wife starcraft baby has no love .
Maybe grandpa (government) will step in and win the custody. Starcraft baby still has hope.
what's starcraft II in this analogy? poor poor starcraft baby....
On September 24 2010 21:43 aimaimaim wrote: i read some of the pages .. and please take note that regarding this matter:
No one gives a fuck about BW dying or staying outside Korea. This is Korea's E-Sport scene. If this goes to courts, they will side with Koreans.
Its a simple analogy. but some people still think blizzard has a chance at destroying Korean Culture with Korean Laws and Korean Courts.
Hence it was a wise move for blizzard to hand over the negotiation reigns to GRETech, a legitimate korean firm.
They now have a better chance than Blizzard vs KeSPA right?
maybe so .. some hope .. as for the ones like me who doesn't give a damn about gretech, i hope they wont do well in the courts .. yup, seems to me that they will fail .. /bias
I dont see why you people are rooting for KESPA. do you even know what they did to GOM? gom had a very respectable league, the Gom Classic, the ONLY pro league friendly to foreigners (us), having their own broadcasts and commentators for us. Then KESPA banned a bunch of people from participating in GOM, and Gom Classic eventually died by KESPA's hand.
I love the proleague, but its SC BW. and i honestly think BW is a better game then SC2. But thats only because it has been out longer, an is very well understood. SC2 isnt as good becasue people arent hat good at it. proleague needs to move over for the new. they did this to themselves by not negotiating with blizzard for broadcast rights. They wanted control over everything to do with broadcasting of SC2 in korea. They wanted and have control over BW and the actual PLAYERS. KESPA did this to themselves.
Not to mention its about time for Gom's revenge. if KESPA was more reasonable in their negotiations with both blizzard and gom, maybe they would still have a chance at keeping our proleague alive... And maybe if they didnt play dirty, Gom wouldn't want to "destroy" them.
On October 20 2010 06:28 Baldey wrote: I dont see why you people are rooting for KESPA. do you even know what they did to GOM? gom had a very respectable league, the Gom Classic, the ONLY pro league friendly to foreigners (us), having their own broadcasts and commentators for us. Then KESPA banned a bunch of people from participating in GOM, and Gom Classic eventually died by KESPA's hand.
I love the proleague, but its SC BW. and i honestly think BW is a better game then SC2. But thats only because it has been out longer, an is very well understood. SC2 isnt as good becasue people arent hat good at it. proleague needs to move over for the new. they did this to themselves by not negotiating with blizzard for broadcast rights. They wanted control over everything to do with broadcasting of SC2 in korea. They wanted and have control over the actual PLAYERS. KESPA did this to themselves.
Not to mention its about time for Gom's revenge. if KESPA was more reasonable in their negotiations with both blizzard and gom, maybe they would still have a chance at keeping our proleague alive...
You're hopeless. ;/ Educate yourself and stop spouting such nonesense. You aren't saying anything new anyway. Doesn't change the fact that it's ignorant and simply wrong.
This is not an appropriate thread anymore, by the way. There are two more recent threads in "Community News."
EPT
... 
I'm saying in general terms of course.
Portal:Progaming
