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Yurebis:
It is easy to see how passion would lead you to disagree... but you ignored the point about SC's size making it self-sustaining. If that size is fractured by KeSPA sticking to SC1 while an active population favors SC2... then there's the problem.
When I said "kill" I don't mean the player population, a good game is a good game and will be played. If the player base fractures the audience fractures too. Thus, sponsors loose clarity in which to invest in and at what rate. When this falls the money flowing in falls and professional SC as we know it will slowly, but steadily, dry up (negative spiral begins).
SC stays strong because it has the size to do so.
terri :
Well, the example is difficult, but the MLB is the controlling body of professional baseball, they set the rules, they control how the game is handled. In this regards, Bliz fits the role. It is actually within Bliz's right to stop KeSPA from broadcasting SC1 at all. People fail to realize it, but a break down in talks, if Bliz wanted to get nasty, could easily mean the end of SC1 broadcasts. However, Bliz isn't so stupid as to spite themselves to slap KeSPA into line.
What's more, is KeSPA has more than once tried to use the mindshare they've garnered from SC and sought to develop competing software (i.e. remove Bliz from the equation); in every turn it has failed because they lack the knowhow to pull it off. KeSPA has proven more than once their motivations are not the well-being of SC, but rather, the well being of KeSPA. However, Bliz is very vested in the well being of SC, which will in-turn, provide some well-being for Bliz (I say some because let's face it... WoW). Which do you want running the show? No brainer.
For this section I'm guessing you didn't look into what I posted. KeSPA has funded competitive game development several times with the goal of their created product being the primary game for Korean eSports. Effectively, they've been taking SC's milk and feeding it to other developers in an attempt to usurp Bliz and remove them from the equation completely.
In a brand holder and licensee holder contract you form it in two ways: 1. flat rate paid up front at the start and end of a project, or 2. royalties are paid as a base of total profits. In the case of #2, audits are common and expected. KeSPA has released this info to an ignorant public in the hopes of pointlessly swaying the court of public opinion. Why I can't imagine... but it is an exceptionally immature move on their part and likely part of the reason Bliz stopped talking to them.
For the shows you listed, let's look at them differently... let's say it is "Pimp My Ride". Do you think that show doesn't pay license fees for the cars they re-make? They certainly do. I speak from experience, especially with car-related licenses, and typically licenses are much cheaper than people think since they work benefits the brand. No doubt, SC is similar. It isn't about profit, it is about brand control and proper use there of.
Ultimately, this isn't about money... for Bliz there really isn't that much to be made there. KeSPA has been and will continue to use the license in abusive ways. Also, people don't understand, when you use anything like this in any capacity you pay licensing fees. This is the norm, what KeSPA enjoys is abnormal and the fact the Bliz let it ride for so long is utterly shocking.
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Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game
Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote:
Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game
Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
Who are the players left the “KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game”?!?
What nonsense you post here?
They are professionals and they relate to contracts with professional teams. No one will break the contracts for a new game. Moreover, this new game is clearly worse than its predecessor as a competition and as a spectator sports.
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On May 07 2010 11:16 nonduc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote:
Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game
Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to Who are the players left the “KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game”?!? What nonsense you post here? They are professionals and they relate to contracts with professional teams. No one will break the contracts for a new game. Moreover, this new game is clearly worse than its predecessor as a competition and as a spectator sports.
It was a hypothetical, no one left.
And you don't know the future, no one does.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On May 07 2010 11:32 Yurebis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 11:16 nonduc wrote:On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote:
Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game
Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to Who are the players left the “KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game”?!? What nonsense you post here? They are professionals and they relate to contracts with professional teams. No one will break the contracts for a new game. Moreover, this new game is clearly worse than its predecessor as a competition and as a spectator sports. It was a hypothetical, no one left. And you don't know the future, no one does.
It was an absurd hypothetical. :/
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On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote:
Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game
Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to But an A to B flip will never happen instantly. In the same way, SCBW didn't grow instantly. There will be a lull in eSports growth while this sorts out.
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ugh i really hate KESPA. It seems to me that KESPA is a few self-appointed businessmen and ex gamers that stepped up to try and regulate / organize broodwar events. they are getting a piece of the pie from broadcasters and teams and everyone, and they are doing a job that blizzard can / will be doing in SC2, but they of course want to keep making money, and so they are holding the BW progaming scene hostage
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On May 07 2010 12:52 drewbie.root wrote:
ugh i really hate KESPA. It seems to me that KESPA is a few self-appointed businessmen and ex gamers that stepped up to try and regulate / organize broodwar events. they are getting a piece of the pie from broadcasters and teams and everyone, and they are doing a job that blizzard can / will be doing in SC2, but they of course want to keep making money, and so they are holding the BW progaming scene hostage
Because Blizzard has already shown themselves capable to run an e-sport, what with their excellent managements of their own tournaments(BlizzCon etc).
KeSPA may not be flawless, but they do a lot to help the pro scene. For one, they made the maps.
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On May 07 2010 13:17 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 12:52 drewbie.root wrote:
ugh i really hate KESPA. It seems to me that KESPA is a few self-appointed businessmen and ex gamers that stepped up to try and regulate / organize broodwar events. they are getting a piece of the pie from broadcasters and teams and everyone, and they are doing a job that blizzard can / will be doing in SC2, but they of course want to keep making money, and so they are holding the BW progaming scene hostage Because Blizzard has already shown themselves capable to run an e-sport, what with their excellent managements of their own tournaments(BlizzCon etc). KeSPA may not be flawless, but they do a lot to help the pro scene. For one, they made the maps.
not just that, blizz i think blizz isnt looking to do it themselves, they just want a partner that does whatever they want and pays them as much as possible..
kespa didnt just regulate/organize, they created...
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1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
1. I agree with KeSPA that 1 year is a bit too short, it'll be hard to generate capital when you present to stakeholders that you have to renewal in a years time, there is no certainty to the Business, let alone player confidence that they may have to find a new association in a years time.
2. This is common, example would be the UFC have to approve who players receive sponsorships from. Blizzard could overly demanding and restrict advertisement of all non-Blizzard game products, restrict advertise of other products, such as console games, (keeping in mind its Activision-Blizzard now), then it may be over the top.
3. Depends on the fee%
4. Okay I think ownership should be shared.
5. This doesn't cost KeSPA anything, I don't see what the problem here is unless they give the "omg i dont wanna be harrased by auditors in dropships every now and then"
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Kespa won't agree to a contract whereby Blizzard can make them not broadcast SC1 if Blizzard wants to?
You don't say.
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On May 07 2010 13:40 fearus wrote:
5. This doesn't cost KeSPA anything, I don't see what the problem here is unless they give the "omg i dont wanna be harrased by auditors in dropships every now and then"
I would have a problem if someone wanted to audit me, even if i did nothing wrong. A lot of innocent people in the USA don't like wiretapping, for example.
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Apparently no one here is used to PR talk. What do you expect KeSPA to say? "yea were a bunch of greedy jerks that want to use bliz game to make $ without paying them any royalties." Of course the're going to argue that blizzard is "unreasonable," its just usual corporate BS.
It's funny how people actually believe KeSPA was somehow instrumental in the creation of competitive gaming. Really? you don't it was the massive interest in players and the game? This is the one organization that could EVER pull this off?..I'd suggest reading up on the meaning of historical materialism. KeSPA hasn't done anything someone else wouldn't have done if they didn't exist. And when KeSPA is done (and it will be), some other organization will takes its place...blizzard doesn't seriously wish to sit around and micro-manage all the details of tournament organization and player contracts.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 07 2010 14:37 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 13:40 fearus wrote:
5. This doesn't cost KeSPA anything, I don't see what the problem here is unless they give the "omg i dont wanna be harrased by auditors in dropships every now and then" I would have a problem if someone wanted to audit me, even if i did nothing wrong. A lot of innocent people in the USA don't like wiretapping, for example.
Auditing an organization and auditing individuals are two very different things. For one, the issue of privacy is less prominent, seeing as there aren't that many personally private things that one should be doing with corporate funds.
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For me as an e-sports fan it's as simple as this.
Blizzard makes money from selling their games or selling subscriptions to games. The more sold copies/subscriptions the more money they will make and invest into their next game.
KeSPA makes money from sponsors, which wants to show their products to fans of esports. The more viewers and bigger sponsorships they get, the more money the invest in the next league or tournament.
Not saying one is evil or one is good. Both of them are driven by simple greed and needs to make money to stay alive. I just cheer for KeSPA (or actually, against Blizzard) because I believe it will keep e-sports alive.
** I might also add that I'm frankly not interested in the western e-sports scene. In my wildest fantasies I could never see it outgrow todays Starcraftscene in Korea, even though I always hoped for it.
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It would be unwise for Blizzard to engage this. They are a game developing company, running leagues and tournaments and nurture them are not Blizzard's role and never will be.
My bet is that Blizzard will shutdown KeSPA then sell the right to another group. Why would they care about nerds that play this for a living?
the OP had it right, this is all about controlling contents => controlling revenues.
One thing is for sure though, Starleague will never be the same but potentially we can see bigger foreign scene but smaller Korean scene.
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On May 07 2010 19:12 D3lta wrote:
Apparently no one here is used to PR talk. What do you expect KeSPA to say? "yea were a bunch of greedy jerks that want to use bliz game to make $ without paying them any royalties." Of course the're going to argue that blizzard is "unreasonable," its just usual corporate BS.
It's funny how people actually believe KeSPA was somehow instrumental in the creation of competitive gaming. Really? you don't it was the massive interest in players and the game? This is the one organization that could EVER pull this off?..I'd suggest reading up on the meaning of historical materialism. KeSPA hasn't done anything someone else wouldn't have done if they didn't exist. And when KeSPA is done (and it will be), some other organization will takes its place...blizzard doesn't seriously wish to sit around and micro-manage all the details of tournament organization and player contracts.
Read the damn article before you post... They did agree to pay reasonable royalties. What they did not agree with were other ridiculous demands (like giving Blizzard the ownership of the teams and basically everything they'd create that'd have anything to do with SC(2)).
"KeSPA hasn't done anything someone else wouldn't have done if they didn't exist."
And by KeSPA you mean OGN, MBCGame, SKT, KT, Samsung, etc.? NIIIICE. Too bad you're just wrong. Those companies invested tons of resources into the esports industry.
What other orgnization are you talking about? KeSPA consists of most of the biggest corporations in Korea. I wonder what companies you're thinking of.
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On May 07 2010 10:56 sk` wrote:
Ultimately, this isn't about money... for Bliz there really isn't that much to be made there.
Well, I fail to see this is not about money for Blizzard since they spent time and legal resource to fight with KeSPA. No companies nor any CEO will spend company resource and time on matters they think would not garner them profit in the future. Be it 3 years or 10 years in the future. And the chance of Blizzard failed to gain profit at this matter in the future is the investment risk Blizzard is taking now. This is the investment law.
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Copyright law is old, and have not adopted to recent changes with digital age. Lets take two simple examples:
If I use adobe acrobat to create a pdf, should I own the pdf? -> Clearly yes
If I copy all images I find from apple.com but add a tiny "(c) Kalles" in the corner.
Can I suddenly say I own these pictures ? - Obviously no, (at least not when I am in front of a judge )
The questions is when and where should the line be drawn. In my opinion the line must allow people some room to move on booth sides, copyright is, or at least should be, intended to promote culture. It is much more preferable for society to allow people some freedom than to lock down everything 100%.
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Though I'm new to the SC competitive scene, I've been reading into this situation out of curiosity and from what I can tell, KeSPA has been continually caught doing inappropriate things without Blizzard's permission and this has led to all kinds of trouble. On the other hand, Blizzard seems to be very actively taking an interest in e-sports that they haven't had before, as demonstrated by their tournament brackets built into the SC2 leagues and plans for an invite only pro league. They've grown quite a bit over the past few years with World of Warcraft, and they definitely have the capability to try and build an e-sports option worldwide for their games and direct it in a way that benefits the players and the game. Regardless of the entire copyright situation, Blizzard has shown themselves interested and willing to take the steps needed to support e-sports.
The real question here is how this will affect the state of e-sports, especially in terms of professional Starcraft. Is there any reason Blizzard can't do exactly what KeSPA did with professional gaming? For all we know, they could be making deals with KeSPA's sponsors right now to keep things going in Korea, and I think it's much more likely that e-sports interested companies will be willing to invest in a company that's proving it has the ability to make money by the boatloads. Blizzard has shown an amazing capacity for working with it's fans during the beta of Starcraft 2, and I think it's very likely we'll see that continue after the game is released.
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EPT
