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On May 06 2010 10:27 eddiehobbes wrote:
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils.
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On May 06 2010 11:15 QibingZero wrote:
Did I miss where everyone came to the agreement that SC2 will just replace BW and that KeSPA is screwed without it? This ridiculous assumption has been around since SC2 was released, and you'd think with the state of the game as it is right now in beta, it would actually have less merit than it does!
You guys can speculate all you want about things like this, but BW is still as exciting as ever in Korea. Acting like KeSPA is 'dead' if they don't get rights to do what they want with SC2 is just crazy.
It can go either way still.
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On May 06 2010 11:30 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:45 Yurebis wrote:On May 06 2010 08:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports.
If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break. KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2? [snip] Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here... Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over.. They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight. Do you watch professional Brood War? They already use hacks. They display real-time resource and unit statistics in the bottom left (on at least one of the channels - can't recall atm). Unlike the software TL uses for their broadcast replays, this is done live, so it cannot be done without some sort of hack.
But at least that's not modifying the game memory, it's just reading it.
Now if the korean government turns a blind eye to a crack that totally modifies the game to circumvent all the battle.net checks, its obvious that any software engineer working or selling in korea is going to be doubtful of the korean government's ability in subduing pirates and securing his profit.
Would microsoft want to sell windows in such a place for example?
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On May 06 2010 11:30 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:45 Yurebis wrote:On May 06 2010 08:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote:
And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports.
If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break. KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2? [snip] Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here... Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over.. They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight. Do you watch professional Brood War? They already use hacks. They display real-time resource and unit statistics in the bottom left (on at least one of the channels - can't recall atm). Unlike the software TL uses for their broadcast replays, this is done live, so it cannot be done without some sort of hack.
There is a glaring distinction to be made between a) modifying a game (a new game at that) to allow it to be played in direct contrast to the way in which it was intentionally designed (ie. playing SC2 OFF bnet 2.0) to allow you to make a profit and b) slightly modifying an old game that does not present any visual aids to improve viewer knowledge in a game which you already broadcast. No?
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On May 06 2010 10:37 Drekkonis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:27 eddiehobbes wrote:
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I I actually admired those moves they did, They are fighting over a game called Starcraft, a strategy game, I think it would be silly if either side didn't use cut throat tactics to get what they wanted. Blizzard moved their queen(removing Lan) killing Kespa's rook and Kespa used their bishop to destroy blizzard's Pawn (GomTV)
I think its funny that you think government corruption and these kind of tactics in a business is admirable. Let's give overlords a new ability: Bribe Flash an extra $500 to lose that will balance sc:bw. Your a cool organization Kespa!
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On May 06 2010 11:35 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 10:27 eddiehobbes wrote:
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils.
Can you please state your reasons?
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On May 06 2010 11:50 eddiehobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 11:35 jpak wrote:On May 06 2010 10:27 eddiehobbes wrote:
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils. Can you please state your reasons?
read my previous comments, then come back
User was warned for this post.
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Blizzard this blizzard that, Korea doesn't even give a shit about SC2 =_="
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On May 06 2010 11:52 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 11:50 eddiehobbes wrote:On May 06 2010 11:35 jpak wrote:On May 06 2010 10:27 eddiehobbes wrote:
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils. Can you please state your reasons? read my previous comments, then come back
Ok, I think enough people already refuted your posts and you make some wild claims.
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if i was working blizzard i would rage
kespa using blizzard products for profits fuck kespa
stfu and pay ur royalties
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On May 06 2010 13:00 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
if i was working blizzard i would rage
kespa using blizzard products for profits fuck kespa
stfu and pay ur royalties
And according to KeSPA's official statement, they're willing to do just that.
KeSPA has expressed its position of being willing to pay for a rational level of usage fee and appeal its support of marketing and promotion for product line-up of Blizzard with continuous investment such as sharing all contents which belong to KeSPA like pro gamers, broadcasting and sponsorship.
The problem is, how much? There is no precedent, no clear case of what Blizzard is entitled to. KeSPA disagreed with how much they owed Blizzard, and broke off negotiation, and Blizzard can't do anything about it because there's nothing was established prior to the popularization game spectating.
I have a feeling that a SC2 UMS will be more popular than the game itself.
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What a bunch of garbage some of you are spewing out. What in the world makes you think that just because it's SC2, it's going to be a success as big as sc:bw? Come on. Are you really that naive?
sc:bw has had major time to develop and it did only flourish when Blizzard wasn't there to mess up things. If I recall the pro scene in Korea wasn't that big until 99-00? and blizzard stop major balances what? 03-04? The game has evolved without Blizzard and it should be that way.
You don't abandon your child just to take it back when it's all grown up and making money.
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I found it funny how KeSPA kept using the words "for eSport fans" in their latest official statements (while never mention it in statements during broadcasting controversies and Free Agents).
Also how KeSPA sent it to foreign esport sites to win our support - they seem to finally realize the existence of a foreign community.
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Since I work in the TV industry let me give the television point of view.
From the television point of view, some of Blizzard's demands are reasonable. They may not sound reasonable the way they've been phrased, but they are definitely the starting point for any Starcraft tournament.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
Standard practice is that you do not sign a contract that allows anyone to broadcast anything forever. If you want to do a documentary on, say, the Kennedy assasination, you negotiate to use the footage you want for a certain period, usually between 5 and 7 years. The longer you use it for, the greater the cost.
However, a one year contract is indeed too short because it is difficult to invest in infrastructure, marketing and so on when the league is a short term thing.
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
This definitely makes sense. Blizzard needs to make sure nothing goes against the image of their game. Remember the photo of Savior doing the Nazi salute? Blizzard would not want that put on a poster.
This is usually a formality. Nearly all such contracts will have it, but it rarely causes conflict. it's quite reasonable.
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
This is also reasonable. Countries fork out millions to host the F1. Stations bid to show Manny Pacquiao fight live. Blizzard can either charge a high license fee and not take sponsorship money, or no license fee and take sponsorship money, or something in between.
As a concept, there's nothing wrong with this.
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
Now this is unfair, since this would make it impossible for channels to do repeat broadcasts of the games and market VODs. One way around it would be for ownership to rest with Blizzard, but for Blizzard to sign a separate agreement that leases the games in perpetuity to the channels at a nominal fee.
Alternatively, let the ownership rest with Kespa or the channelsin Korea, but allow Blizzard to own rights to the games outside Korea.
5. Right to audit KeSPA
If Blizzard is taking a percentage of sponsorship money from Kespa, they will need to audit them. Probably not the entire company, though.
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On May 06 2010 14:08 The Storyteller wrote:
Since I work in the TV industry let me give the television point of view.
From the television point of view, some of Blizzard's demands are reasonable. They may not sound reasonable the way they've been phrased, but they are definitely the starting point for any Starcraft tournament.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
Standard practice is that you do not sign a contract that allows anyone to broadcast anything forever. If you want to do a documentary on, say, the Kennedy assasination, you negotiate to use the footage you want for a certain period, usually between 5 and 7 years. The longer you use it for, the greater the cost.
However, a one year contract is indeed too short because it is difficult to invest in infrastructure, marketing and so on when the league is a short term thing.
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
This definitely makes sense. Blizzard needs to make sure nothing goes against the image of their game. Remember the photo of Savior doing the Nazi salute? Blizzard would not want that put on a poster.
This is usually a formality. Nearly all such contracts will have it, but it rarely causes conflict. it's quite reasonable.
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
This is also reasonable. Countries fork out millions to host the F1. Stations bid to show Manny Pacquiao fight live. Blizzard can either charge a high license fee and not take sponsorship money, or no license fee and take sponsorship money, or something in between.
As a concept, there's nothing wrong with this.
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
Now this is unfair, since this would make it impossible for channels to do repeat broadcasts of the games and market VODs. One way around it would be for ownership to rest with Blizzard, but for Blizzard to sign a separate agreement that leases the games in perpetuity to the channels at a nominal fee.
Alternatively, let the ownership rest with Kespa or the channelsin Korea, but allow Blizzard to own rights to the games outside Korea.
5. Right to audit KeSPA
If Blizzard is taking a percentage of sponsorship money from Kespa, they will need to audit them. Probably not the entire company, though.
Awesome post Storyteller. thanks for the insights! 
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On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
What should mean this?
That the game license will last a year and after we have to pay for another game licence?
This point is not clear at all.
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On May 06 2010 10:45 Yurebis wrote:
They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight.
Uhh do you know how widespread piracy already is in SK and other parts of Asia?
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At the moment this sounds like the blizzard powerhouse it has become just wants to take over basically and in the light of recent blizzard activities this does not come over as something that couldn't be true.
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On May 06 2010 14:08 The Storyteller wrote:
Since I work in the TV industry let me give the television point of view.
From the television point of view, some of Blizzard's demands are reasonable. They may not sound reasonable the way they've been phrased, but they are definitely the starting point for any Starcraft tournament.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
Standard practice is that you do not sign a contract that allows anyone to broadcast anything forever. If you want to do a documentary on, say, the Kennedy assasination, you negotiate to use the footage you want for a certain period, usually between 5 and 7 years. The longer you use it for, the greater the cost.
However, a one year contract is indeed too short because it is difficult to invest in infrastructure, marketing and so on when the league is a short term thing.
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
This definitely makes sense. Blizzard needs to make sure nothing goes against the image of their game. Remember the photo of Savior doing the Nazi salute? Blizzard would not want that put on a poster.
This is usually a formality. Nearly all such contracts will have it, but it rarely causes conflict. it's quite reasonable.
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
This is also reasonable. Countries fork out millions to host the F1. Stations bid to show Manny Pacquiao fight live. Blizzard can either charge a high license fee and not take sponsorship money, or no license fee and take sponsorship money, or something in between.
As a concept, there's nothing wrong with this.
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
Now this is unfair, since this would make it impossible for channels to do repeat broadcasts of the games and market VODs. One way around it would be for ownership to rest with Blizzard, but for Blizzard to sign a separate agreement that leases the games in perpetuity to the channels at a nominal fee.
Alternatively, let the ownership rest with Kespa or the channelsin Korea, but allow Blizzard to own rights to the games outside Korea.
5. Right to audit KeSPA
If Blizzard is taking a percentage of sponsorship money from Kespa, they will need to audit them. Probably not the entire company, though.
But this is not just about broadcasting. If blizz was the organizer of the leagues/tournaments than it would be just about broadcasting. Here KeSPA is doing all the organizing. In that sense, no sane person would organize a league under those terms. One year contract means shit to KeSPA and especially to players and the teams. What is stopping blizz for asking unreasonable sums of money once the game becomes popular thanks to KeSPA, or killing the game after the WC4 or SC3 is released. imagine yourself spending your whole youth practicing something that might not even be there in a few years. If blizz really wants SC2 to be a professional eSport it must give up on trying to control it and let things happen it its own way. That's the only way. but I seriously doubt blizz cares about professional gaming and by professional gaming I don't mean people playing the game after they come home from their real work.
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@post above
I don't think they don't care as much as they used to since they've become zillionairs with WoW and activision merge
Ofcourse this news is one sided at the moment with the kespa statement
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EPT
