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On May 06 2010 04:55 Yurebis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 21:01 KristianJS wrote:
Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon... +1 Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 22:25 maybenexttime wrote:
@Yurebis
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them. Those sponsors and channels are not tied to kespa, kespa and them are a symbiotic profit relationship. The sponsors are tied to the fans, the source of its profit. If KeSPA goes away, they'll find another agency who can do what KeSPA did, to keep business model and therefore profits going. For KeSPA to die, even if it meant all the corporations would never be able to enter the scene again (no such thing, unless blizzard for some stupid reason doesn't allow those specific corporations to pay them royalties for SC2, which would be counter-intuitive to Blizzard's profits), it doesn't mean the fans will cease to like starcraft. The demand is still there, Kespa and the sponsors were supplying that demand. With them gone (even if all the sponsors are gone), new sponsors can come in to seize the profit opportunity (unless again, Blizzard is being such douches so much that no one wants to do business with them) I personally dislike Blizzard's attempt to control everything. I would just make a game and allow everyone to broadcast, play lan, do whatever. It costs a lot trying to control, and I would not even bother trying to. However, they know what they're doing, if they're doing something like that, it's because they feel they can be a "better KeSPA" themselves. If you believe Blizzard would put itself in a position where they would become unpopular and therefore miss a profit, you better think again. They will figure out the best means to draw the fans and sponsors, without KeSPA if they judge it to be a burden or unnecessary. Again, at worst, what can happen is, BW keeps going in korea while blizzard missed their chance to capture the sponsors (with or without KeSPA) due to their "abusive" business models.
What do you mean by KeSPA then? Afaik those sponsors comprise KeSPA for the most part. If they leave "KeSPA" and form another coalition it'll still be KeSPA, just under a different name... ;; And that new coalition would still not agree to Blizzard terms.
So I'll repeat my question: what do you understand by KeSPA? What would be left of KeSPA if the corporate sponsors and OGN/MBC left it? As far as I know, not much.
But do you understand the issue at hand? It's not some imaginary KeSPA that has a gripe with Blizzard. It's the corporate sponsors and the broadcasting companies that oppose those ridiculous terms. KeSPA is just a name of their coalition that happens to be Korean esports governing body. The team owners will not give away the teams they're investing tons of money into just like that. OGN/MBC are not going to give the ownership of all the StarCraft (2) related content they produce to Blizzard either.
What Blizzard means by looking for a new partner is turning their back to the corporate sponsors who invested in the StarCraft esports sector, OGN and MBC - not the referees or whoever else.
KeSPA isn't doing too great, but I can only imagine Blizzard would screw everything up even more. They're already being extremely restrictive when it comes to having any sort of bigger initiative in the esports sector with SC2. They have all sorts of stupid policies and ideas and they removed some crucial features that are only gonig to hurt the esports scene. They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
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On May 06 2010 05:08 urashimakt wrote:Heck, they even tried to sell the rights to something they don't own just to fasten more control and more income.
They hire the players, they have a right to decide where they will play. It is so uncommon/strange that teams got money from leagues? You can't know if it is fair of not if you don't know they costs/profits.
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Do you guys honestly expect Blizzard to pull another SC1 where they literally lost all control of how, when, where and by whom the game was played? So they aren't too keen on associating their brand with a corrupt and messed up partner that has proved to be anything but cooperative, unless they get the final say in things...can you honestly blame them?
Time for a reality check.
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On May 06 2010 05:26 Longshank wrote:
Do you guys honestly expect Blizzard to pull another SC1 where they literally lost all control of how, when, where and by whom the game was played? So they aren't too keen on associating their brand with a corrupt and messed up partner that has proved to be anything but cooperative, unless they get the final say in things...can you honestly blame them?
Time for a reality check.
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
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On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
That's why they've stated on several occasions they aren't going to run the show, that they need a partner to do it for them.
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On May 06 2010 05:26 Longshank wrote:
Do you guys honestly expect Blizzard to pull another SC1 where they literally lost all control of how, when, where and by whom the game was played? So they aren't too keen on associating their brand with a corrupt and messed up partner that has proved to be anything but cooperative, unless they get the final say in things...can you honestly blame them?
Time for a reality check.
The reality is that this was the deal, they were willing to invest in SC esports if they were given free hand. They had risked they money got benefit from it, and Blizzard had befit by selling many more copies in SK then they would. Later on they wanted to change the terms. Why would Koreans cooperate and change previously agreed terms for a worse ones? Is it even reasonable to cry that somebody took a risk, made a profit on something that you had sold him in the past, and asking him to change the terms now?
They want to change terms on SC:BW!
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On May 06 2010 05:33 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous. That's why they've stated on several occasions they aren't going to run the show, that they need a partner to do it for them.
Yes a partner who is going bow down to them and lick their feet or something. Honestly, they are so conceited. I shan't dare imagine how Esports will turn out to be if Blizzard gets their way.
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On May 06 2010 05:33 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous. That's why they've stated on several occasions they aren't going to run the show, that they need a partner to do it for them.
A partner? More like a slave that'll do the job for them, give away the ownership of any content he (?) produces and whom Blizzard will be able to legally strip of any profits. ;;
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On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 04:55 Yurebis wrote:On May 05 2010 21:01 KristianJS wrote:
Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon... +1 On May 05 2010 22:25 maybenexttime wrote:
@Yurebis
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them. Those sponsors and channels are not tied to kespa, kespa and them are a symbiotic profit relationship. The sponsors are tied to the fans, the source of its profit. If KeSPA goes away, they'll find another agency who can do what KeSPA did, to keep business model and therefore profits going. For KeSPA to die, even if it meant all the corporations would never be able to enter the scene again (no such thing, unless blizzard for some stupid reason doesn't allow those specific corporations to pay them royalties for SC2, which would be counter-intuitive to Blizzard's profits), it doesn't mean the fans will cease to like starcraft. The demand is still there, Kespa and the sponsors were supplying that demand. With them gone (even if all the sponsors are gone), new sponsors can come in to seize the profit opportunity (unless again, Blizzard is being such douches so much that no one wants to do business with them) I personally dislike Blizzard's attempt to control everything. I would just make a game and allow everyone to broadcast, play lan, do whatever. It costs a lot trying to control, and I would not even bother trying to. However, they know what they're doing, if they're doing something like that, it's because they feel they can be a "better KeSPA" themselves. If you believe Blizzard would put itself in a position where they would become unpopular and therefore miss a profit, you better think again. They will figure out the best means to draw the fans and sponsors, without KeSPA if they judge it to be a burden or unnecessary. Again, at worst, what can happen is, BW keeps going in korea while blizzard missed their chance to capture the sponsors (with or without KeSPA) due to their "abusive" business models. What do you mean by KeSPA then? Afaik those sponsors comprise KeSPA for the most part. If they leave "KeSPA" and form another coalition it'll still be KeSPA, just under a different name... ;; And that new coalition would still not agree to Blizzard terms. So I'll repeat my question: what do you understand by KeSPA? What would be left of KeSPA if the corporate sponsors and OGN/MBC left it? As far as I know, not much. But do you understand the issue at hand? It's not some imaginary KeSPA that has a gripe with Blizzard. It's the corporate sponsors and the broadcasting companies that oppose those ridiculous terms. KeSPA is just a name of their coalition that happens to be Korean esports governing body. The team owners will not give away the teams they're investing tons of money into just like that. OGN/MBC are not going to give the ownership of all the StarCraft (2) related content they produce to Blizzard either. What Blizzard means by looking for a new partner is turning their back to the corporate sponsors who invested in the StarCraft esports sector, OGN and MBC - not the referees or whoever else. KeSPA isn't doing too great, but I can only imagine Blizzard would screw everything up even more. They're already being extremely restrictive when it comes to having any sort of bigger initiative in the esports sector with SC2. They have all sorts of stupid policies and ideas and they removed some crucial features that are only gonig to hurt the esports scene. They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
OK if what you say is true, then you mean the transition between sponsors+channels -> KeSPA is quite flawless?
KeSPA has always been doing exactly that which the sponsors want?
I see what you mean then. Still,
The sponsors are only loosely affiliated, for if they see that there's a greater profit opportunity outside of KeSPA, don't doubt for a second, they'll leave KeSPA and go with it.
Say Blizzard doesn't give KeSPA SC2, and tries to establish it's new "BlizzeSPA" (what an ugly name) with separate licensing, separate tourneys obviously, separate channels (with GOM maybe). At first it starts slow, because KeSPA tightens it's grips on the players and channels, saying they can't play, broadcast, nor acquire licenses with BlizzeSPA if they want to keep their KeSPA ones. So KeSPA and BlizzeSPA are competing on the starcraft korean scene.
Then, if SC2 really is the superior game as blizzard says it is, it will inevitably, even with the restraints that the old sponsors put into the starcraft 1 players, loose the market share. Fans will like starcraft 2 better, the nerds will be playing sc2 more eventually, and sc1 will be a thing of the past. The KeSPA corporations then, are now on deficit, and once one or two of them leave kespa, they'll all break apart, or at best, they'll shrink in size a lot and become just a niche, or just another game league, w\ few to no teams anymore. All players and fans shifted to SC2. The corporations will want to join BlizzeSPA because that's where the money is at now.
Or, in the opposite perspective, SC2 and BlizzeSPA sucks so much balls that there won't be a transition ever and korea will stay w\ BW.
Point being, the corporations just go where the money's at, meaning, where the fans want to go.
So I wouldn't fear for KeSPA's death.
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On May 06 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable?
That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
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The problem is that Blizzard will be limited to only having amateur tournaments without having pro teams, nobody will invest in teams without having any rights, and it does not look like Blizzard will make any teams themselves.
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On May 06 2010 06:01 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative. Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable? That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
These kids CHOOSE to do it. They aren't forced. They want to play the game. They want to spend 12 hours a day playing. If they can't take it, they are free to drop out and continue with their lives. No one is putting a gun to their heads making them work.
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On May 06 2010 06:01 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative. Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable? That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
It is extreme. I can't think of any non-extreme example tbh. Have you tried coming up with any?
And still, it's just one of the conditions. What's up with owning the teams other companies are paying millions (afaik) of dollars a year to sustain for free or getting the ownership of any content related to SC(2)? And what the rest of those mad conditions?
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On May 06 2010 06:16 maybenexttime wrote:
[
It is extreme. I can't think of any non-extreme example tbh. Have you tried coming up with any?
And still, it's just one of the conditions. What's up with owning the teams other companies are paying millions (afaik) of dollars a year to sustain for free or getting the ownership of any content related to SC(2)? And what the rest of those mad conditions?
Just replace Al-Qaida with any shady corporation with a questionable reputation. Like one in the porn industry or company dealing weapons. How would they be able to stop it unless it's put on paper?
And they aren't owning the teams, they got the right to use their players. I'm not sure about that one but I suppose they didn't appreciate the GOMTV stunt from Kespa.
And ownership to any content related to SC2 is also about protecting their trademark and the right to royalties when someone makes profit off their IP.
Basicly every condition is a way for Blizzard to get a veto in anything concerning their game and characters, that doesn't mean they plan to halt any and all things concerning SC2. If you think Blizzard isn't aware of the marketing value of a flourishing e-sport scene you are mistaken.
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Maybe instead of kespa paying blizzard... they could help promote other games with ads in the individual/proleague? They should atleast negotiate this more... rather than dick measuring.
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On May 06 2010 06:01 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative. Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable? That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
LoL at how all these "blizzard was to protect their 'good name/image'" arguements present ridiculous senarios and then admit said senario is redikulous thus haveing effectively said nothing...
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I wouldnt trust the current blizzard with anything..
Back in the days when they were getting popular... (Diablo 1, Warcraft 2, Starcraft, Broodwar, Diablo 2) Blizzard were the men.. After the release of Brood War I swear they went down hill.. Wc3, Wow, Sc2 are indicators.. And I mean.. Its like they made a great game and then completely forgot about it.. And it shows too when the blizzard employees know NOTHING about the game..
Sure they made a great game, but they didnt make an E-Sport.. I dont know who did so Im just going to say KeSPA did.. If thats the case then goodjob KeSPA even though everyone hated them until now. Either way Blizzard is the "bad guy" imo.
Back in the day.. People when they thought of "blizzard" they wouldnt think of a snow storm, they would think of Starcraft:Brood Wars, or Diablo 2.. Now they will think of WoW.. I dont trust blizzard at all lol, and there customer service is as bad as KeSPA's ridiculous rules.
I REALLY hope Sc2 doesnt get anywhere near E-sports level, because 1) I hate blizzard 2) Sc2 isnt fit 3) I would never watch sc2..
When sc2 beta came out I watched sc2 for a total of 5 min before closed the stream because I was as bored as when I watched wc3 at blizzcon
Anyways... Blizzard made Broodwar, but afterwards didnt do shit to make it become an E-sport.. So even if KeSPA isnt responsible for it, I still take their side.
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@ Yurebis
I think you have a serious misconception of what KeSPA actually is. These corporations are not sponsoring KeSPA. They ARE KeSPA. Blizzard could do nothing with GOM because GOM is owned by CJ Media, which is part of KeSPA. No TV network in Korea will work with Blizzard because they are either owned by KeSPA corporations or would not benefit from aggravating them. Simply put, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage in Korea at all. Fighting against KeSPA in Korea is directly warring against Samsung, CJ, MBC, OGN, pretty much all the major companies in broadcast, technology, and telecommunications along with all the influence they hold in business and politics... This carries serious implications and is not a simple matter at all. Even if Blizzard somehow got through those obstacles, they would find it difficult to find sponsors in Korea. Do you think Shinhan Bank or even Korean Air would want to irk any of the afformentioned KeSPA members? Companies like Korean Air which would sponsor events will at some point or another need to have good relations with a company like Samsung. They have no need for any relationship at all with Blizzard or Activision, which are really insignificant no-name companies by comparison. There's also no real way for Blizzard to "not give" SC2 to KeSPA for broadcasting either since the way Korean law is, if they just buy a legal copy of the game, they're permitted to broadcast it. There would be no realistic way for Blizzard to stop them either so that entire argument about competing in that manner is moot...
Blizzard's best course of action would really to be to leave KeSPA alone and forget about trying to control Korea altogether. It's too difficult as the eSports infrastructure there has grown too strong to be controlled in such a manner by a company as small as Blizzard. Just let KeSPA do what they want... Blizzard should instead focus its own efforts on developing somewhere outside of Korea from the ground up. It will be much easier for them to have influence on a smaller, more insignificant league like the MLG or a similar league. Once they have done this, they will have a little bit more bargaining power when it comes to Korea because they will have a voice in the non-Korean side of any negotiations in terms of international competition.
Just to put things into perspective. Imagine a conglomerate in the USA comprised of Time Warner, Verizon, Sprint, AT&T, most major broadcasting companies, and some far reaching company like Microsoft. Then imagine they had influence over half of Congress and also were on the board of pretty much any other major company... That's pretty much KeSPA because of the political environment in Korea and the way Korean corporations operate (everyone has their hand in everything). If NCSoft comes over from Korea to the USA and tries to strong arm that group of companies, do you think they'll take them seriously? Blizzard needs to stop trying here and spend their time on more productive things. Korea will not budge for them because they don't need to..
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On May 05 2010 22:32 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 19:24 Lyrok wrote:
Care to elaborate? Unless this is something WoW specific. Well WoW is the biggest current example since it's Blizzard's major cash cow. For other examples, look at SC, D2, and WC3. All of them lack serious ladders and antihacks which ultimately forced 3rd parties to do the job Blizzard should have been doing if they actually cared about maintaining a competitive environment for serious gamers. Blizzard has no track record of successfully handling a competitive game and they've historically flaked on older games once they sold their copies and released a new game. I don't understand why people are suddenly inclined to trust them now... They've done nothing to deserve such confidence from the community. They make wonderful games. They just suck at managing them...
This is a very good post and my biggest problem with this whole thing. I could personally care less about what Blizzard or Kespa want...I'm more focused on what us as players should want.
I can assume that everybody here wants e-sports to grow as we are all e-sports fans, and you should know that if Blizzard wants complete control of every SC2 operation, e-sports will not grow and it is as simple as that. E-sports grows when third parties get involved and make it grow. When the creating company wants 100% control I can guarantee it will never take off like it should.
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On May 06 2010 06:58 JinMaikeul wrote:
@ Yurebis
I think you have a serious misconception of what KeSPA actually is.
And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports.
If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
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EPT
