EPT[Update] KeSPA Speaks Out On Intellectual Property Rights…
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sib-pelle
Sweden162 Posts
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
On May 04 2010 19:28 nttea wrote: disregarding what the law says about this and that since i don't know shit about that. Blizzard should stick to making good games and getting people to buy them, and just stay out of everything else. Totally agree, as much as I am clueless about all this shizz I have some feeling this is the best scenario for everyone. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
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Necrosjef
United Kingdom530 Posts
But it would be a shame to see Blizzard having total control over E-Sports. My main gripe against KeSPA is that they don't make any effort to cater for fans outside of South Korea, which are probably the majority of fans. Main problem with Blizzard is that they treat their customers like dirt and probably one of the greediest companies in the world. Yes they make good games but their customer service is pretty horrendous and the lack of information about their games coming up in future is astounding. Would definately be much much worse if Blizzard came out on top in this "fight"... | ||
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torfteufel
Germany86 Posts
hence giving sc2 a 18+ rating in s.korea is cutting their profit to a certain amount (and it is basically the ONLY thing korea can do as it adresses blizzards profits). the question is: will it be more expensive than letting go of making money through pro gaming? as of now it seems they dont know yet as it is extremely hard to predict. according to blizzards stance in the future we will know what is cheaper for them... gotta love economics | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On May 04 2010 20:09 Necrosjef wrote: Would be nice is KeSPA was replaced by something a bit more positive. But it would be a shame to see Blizzard having total control over E-Sports. My main gripe against KeSPA is that they don't make any effort to cater for fans outside of South Korea, which are probably the majority of fans. Main problem with Blizzard is that they treat their customers like dirt and probably one of the greediest companies in the world. Yes they make good games but their customer service is pretty horrendous and the lack of information about their games coming up in future is astounding. Would definately be much much worse if Blizzard came out on top in this "fight"... Why whould they fucking care about fans outside of South Korea, srsly? And how? | ||
snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On May 04 2010 14:54 Jonoman92 wrote: Thanks for keeping us informed Waxangel. I can't say I completely or even partially understand all the different things going on in this Blizzard vs. KeSPA battle. However, I support Blizzard because they are the ones who make the game(s) I love. Also, KeSPA DQ's people for typing and accidentally pausing during games and that is fucking bullshit. If anything they should encourage smack talk, especially if they want to even pretend it is somewhat sport-like. Like really, why can't you make decision on a case by case basis. So you're willing to have the whole SC scene die because of a few questionable decisions by the refs? Having disagreements with them is one thing, simply wanting them to disappear seems exaggerated, especially when you also want a totally inexperienced and unproven company to take the reins. If you're unhappy about some of KeSPA's decisions, you'll probably be raging when Blizzard controls everything. And KeSPA is purely a Korean organization -- Blizzard's gatekeeping will have a worldwide reach. As a veteran, your hate for KeSPA is just encouraging newbs who never followed the scene to jump on the bandwagon and bash pro SC altogether with increasingly absurd statements. | ||
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Yggdrasil Leaf
221 Posts
On May 04 2010 20:14 torfteufel wrote: as stated before blizzard activision is a corporation that is traded at the stock exchange. hence they have to maximize profits. only reason for blizzard to forfeit their outragious claims would be if they would make less profit due to whatever (bad image, less sold sc2 copies, you name it) hence giving sc2 a 18+ rating in s.korea is cutting their profit to a certain amount (and it is basically the ONLY thing korea can do as it adresses blizzards profits). the question is: will it be more expensive than letting go of making money through pro gaming? as of now it seems they dont know yet as it is extremely hard to predict. according to blizzards stance in the future we will know what is cheaper for them... gotta love economics It's a lovely world....  ok, back to watching some games now. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
For clarification, I'm under the impression that while KeSPA makes up a good number of ESports teams, they are more representative of the sponser-side than the player-side. Of course, the players themselves will not object because they have no leverage against the powers in charge. It's like labor without a labor union. Letting Blizzard manage KeSPA's practices will probably change things for the better. At least it's a step away from what KeSPA has been doing. | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
Free Agency <-- I'm totally agree with this, KeSPA is fucking asshole with FA players... MSL Powerr outage <-- This have nothing to do with KeSPA, MBC Channel got fucked up PP incident <-- the referee from KeSPA did nothing wrong. yes, the guy who made the rule is an idiot, but KeSPA fixed ppp rules immediately after the accident GomTV forced out <-- GomTV was poorly organized, yes, it has english commentaries but like I said before, their korean commentary sucks...Players already got overworked, so its not a big deal either for them or korean fans, if GomTV doesnt even exist. Ofcs its very sad for foreign fans, but why would KeSPA care about foreign fans? Any other reason why do you hate KeSPA so much?? | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
This is because of what each group is after. KeSPA is concerned about control over players and broadcasting, meaning they will aim to constrict ESports under their control. Blizzard, on the other hand, is concerned about spreading their product to many people across different demographics. So, they will be more apt to expand broadcasting (remember they are not as concerned about limiting broadcast rights) and encourage more players and teams in more tournaments. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2749 Posts
And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams. Imagine TSL: TL organizes the tourney, makes sure there are casters. The players all practiced in their teams (EG, TOT, etc). Then there would be this FESPA organisation who would somehow make up rules here and there and rake in a fair % of the money. What? | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
but...CJ doesn't seem to be Kespa's strongest supporter? Still, Kespa's statement about its unity seems strong and I think CJ will go along with Kespa. And I would hazard to guess that Kespa isn't designed to make money - instead it's like an industry organization to represent the interests of its members and help THEM make money. That is, SK group, KT, OGN (CJ), MBC, etc. | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
I have an idea. TL representatives should speak with Blizzard about the property rights of broadcast material for TSL 3. That way we can find out what Blizzard would actually demand. (yes, a silly idea, but it would look good in a blockbuster movie) | ||
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SOB_Maj_Brian
United States522 Posts
To establish a prima facie case of copyright infringement, a plaintiff must demonstrate “(1) ownership of a valid copyright, and (2) copying of constituent elements of the work that are original.” The element of copying has two components: first, the plaintiff must establish actual copying by either direct or indirect evidence; then, the plaintiff must establish that the copying amounts to an improper or unlawful appropriation. The plaintiff demonstrates that the copying is actionable “by showing that the second work bears a ‘substantial similarity’ to protected expression in the earlier work. The appropriate inquiry under the substantial similarity test is whether “the copying is quantitatively and qualitatively sufficient to support the legal conclusion that infringement (actionable copying) has occurred. The quantitative component addresses the amount of the copyrighted work that is copied, while the qualitative component addresses the copying of protected expression, as opposed to unprotected ideas or facts. The derivative work argument: Basically analysis starts with 17 U.S.C § 106(2) which gives the copyright owner the exclusive right to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work. However, under 17 U.S.C. § 103(b), the copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. Courts have held that sequels or parodies are derivative works (however there may be a fair use defense which gets complicated). In one particular case, Micro Star v. FormGen the Court actually dealt with derivative works with respects to software. FormGen had a copyright in Duke Nukem 3D, and Micro Star used the build editor to create more map files. Micro Star argued that the files did not contain any images from the games but just instructions on how to rearrange images, but the court did not buy it. The court stated “The work that Micro Star infringes is the Duke Nukem 3D-story itself – a beefy commando type named Duke who wanders around post-Apocalypse Los Angeles, shooting Pig Cops with a gun, lobbing hand grenades…A copyright owner has the right to create sequels and the stories told in the Duke Nukem 3D MAP files are surely sequels telling new (though somewhat repetitive) tales of Duke’s fabulous adventures.” Is TL(or iccup) guilty of copyright infringement or trademark infringement? Not that Blizzard would actually prosecute people that helped them out (TL generates interest in SC and SC2 which equals more sales, which equals more money for blizzard), BUT if you aren't helping Blizzard they aren't afraid to go after you, just look at the case of bnetd. If you haven't heard of this you should Wikipedia it or read the opinion here http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/05/09/043654P.pdf Basically, I am surprised that Blizzard hasn't gone after iccup, but by the time iccup came around it was late in the game and they probably figured that iccup actually increased interest in the game. I seriously doubt iccup will be allowed to venture into SC2 territory the way it functions currently in SC. As for TL, there might be a cause of action under trademark law for trademark infringement under a theory of dilution or likelihood of confusion. Likewise, under copyright law, a court would likely find infringement, just look at the legality of fan fiction and the cases involving Harry Potter. Essentially all fan fiction fails as a derivative work and also likely fails under a fair use defense. There are four non-elusive factors that courts typically anlayze under fair use (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; factual works (less protection) and fiction more protection (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole, and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. If TL were able to pull too many visitors or siphon revenue of off Blizzard, I believe Blizzard has a decent copyright infringement case and TL would fail in its fair use defense. Basically, TL runs adds which generate revenue (see that thing above which says: you can get your ad here right now: $4.10), which essentially makes TL a commercial use in the eyes of the court, (note KESPA is even worse here). Thus, factor 1 weighs against fair use. The second factor, the nature of the copyrighted work also weighs against fair use, because Starcraft is a fictional creation not a factual work (i.e. facts biographies etc., See Harper & Rowe 471 U.S. 539 (1985). The third factor also weighs against fair use, because TL copies significant elements of the copyrighted work. The fourth factor (and most significant factor courts have said) is less clear. Essentially TL has to take away business from Blizzard. Blizzard could argue that they are losing market share because they should have sole control over forums etc. and people are directed to TL thus they lose potential customers. In KESPA’s case this factor weighs very heavily against fair use, because Blizzard has lost the ability to create a league (a whole industry). I know most of you thought that was too long, but I am a law student and although I primarily wrestle with patents, I end up dabbling in copyright and trademark classes. As many of you noted copyright laws vary by nation, but under WIPO and TRIPS, the treaties requires all members of the WTO to comply to certain basic standards in IP and sets out ways to litigate international IP disputes. If Blizzard wants to take this to litigation, I do not believe they would necessarily be subject to South Korean law, but someone should clarify this! | ||
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Caos2
United States1728 Posts
On May 04 2010 20:28 emucxg wrote: basically why people hate KeSPA: Free Agency <-- I'm totally agree with this, KeSPA is fucking asshole with FA players... MSL Powerr outage <-- This have nothing to do with KeSPA, MBC Channel got fucked up PP incident <-- the referee from KeSPA did nothing wrong. yes, the guy who made the rule is an idiot, but KeSPA fixed ppp rules immediately after the accident GomTV forced out <-- GomTV was poorly organized, yes, it has english commentaries but like I said before, their korean commentary sucks...Players already got overworked, so its not a big deal either for them or korean fans, if GomTV doesnt even exist. Ofcs its very sad for foreign fans, but why would KeSPA care about foreign fans? Exactly! My main gripe with KeSPA is the lack of a programing union. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
Pretty sure the breaking point is whether you're making a business out of Blizzard's game. TSL clearly isn't a business, while Kespa's leagues clearly are. | ||
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
 Anyways, I hope it works out in esports best interests, despite my feeling that it won't. | ||
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snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On May 04 2010 20:38 Navane wrote: As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade. No, GOM is only the alternative to OGN/MBC. You're focusing too much on the broadcasters, when they're the easiest people to bring onboard since they stand to make money from broadcasting thanks to advertisement revenue. Sponsors on the other hand simply bankroll teams with "free" money in return for exposure. It's a much less obvious proposition. In KeSPA's case, the sponsors structured themselves as a professional sports association and took a very active role by organizing the team houses, the Courage tournaments, etc. Unsurprisingly, they finally decided to get a return on their investment by doing what all sports associations do, selling broadcasting rights (otherwise only OGN and MBC actually make any money from esports). That's the only way KeSPA can make a profit since, contrary to other sports associations, they don't charge entry fees and they don't sell merchandising on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, the process caused a scandal back in 2007 as they had to create the broadcasting rights out of thin air to actually sell them, and that really kicked off the anti-KeSPA bandwagon, even though they were perfectly justified in their decision and the whole thing was more of an internal profit-sharing agreement since OGN and MBC are part of the organization. Oddly enough, some people who hate KeSPA for that scandal support Blizzard's royalty demands! Yet Blizzard isn't going to sponsor teams, much less organize team houses and such. They need to attract sponsors -- demanding total control in addition to royalties doesn't look like a good way to do that. If KeSPA is balking even though they have an established scene, do you think companies in other countries -- where esports are nonexistent -- will be interested? | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On May 04 2010 21:15 snowdrift86 wrote: I had forgotten about that. This is indeed an important part of the history behind the situation.Unfortunately, the process caused a scandal back in 2007 as they had to create the broadcasting rights out of thin air to actually sell them, and that really kicked off the anti-KeSPA bandwagon, even though they were perfectly justified in their decision and the whole thing was more of an internal profit-sharing agreement since OGN and MBC are part of the organization. Oddly enough, some people who hate KeSPA for that scandal support Blizzard's royalty demands! On May 04 2010 21:15 snowdrift86 wrote:Yet Blizzard isn't going to sponsor teams, much less organize team houses and such. They need to attract sponsors -- demanding total control in addition to royalties doesn't look like a good way to do that. If KeSPA is balking even though they have an established scene, do you think companies in other countries -- where esports are nonexistent -- will be interested? Yeah. If SC2 succeeds outside South Korea as an esport, it won't be because of Blizzard's "support", but it will be in SPITE of Blizzard's demands. But I have a feeling Blizzard will be less demanding elsewhere because there's less money in those places, for now. | ||
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