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On May 04 2010 20:38 Navane wrote:
As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade.
And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams.
Imagine TSL: TL organizes the tourney, makes sure there are casters. The players all practiced in their teams (EG, TOT, etc). Then there would be this FESPA organisation who would somehow make up rules here and there and rake in a fair % of the money. What?
I don't think you even understand the situation at all.
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On May 04 2010 21:40 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 20:38 Navane wrote:
As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade.
And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams.
Imagine TSL: TL organizes the tourney, makes sure there are casters. The players all practiced in their teams (EG, TOT, etc). Then there would be this FESPA organisation who would somehow make up rules here and there and rake in a fair % of the money. What? I don't think you even understand the situation at all.
I don't think you understand the situation too.
(See, how easy it is to say that without proper elaboration)
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And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams.
As far as my understanding goes, KeSPA basically is OGN, MBC, and the team sponsors.
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On May 04 2010 20:09 Necrosjef wrote:
My main gripe against KeSPA is that they don't make any effort to cater for fans outside of South Korea, which are probably the majority of fans.
Are they now.
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I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it..
No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
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On May 04 2010 17:41 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 12:32 mrdx wrote:On May 04 2010 12:04 ShadeR wrote:On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident. I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it. Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention. Except that not only is the success of BW not an accident, it's also not solely Blizzard's prize to hold. It was the fact that Korea loved the game so much, got sponsors interested, refined the balance of the game to what it is today using maps, etc etc... years of work to build up to what we have today. Besides, Blizzard is getting plenty out of the deal, and that's even beyond the ridiculous amount of free advertising they get from it. The idea behind eSports is supposed to be that games that get popular due to eSports end up selling more copies as a result, and improve the reputation of game designers' like Blizzard (allowing them to further profit off future sales). It's like half the people posting don't have any clue about the history behind this discussion...
1- I'm not sure why you're saying all this. No one denies the amazing achievement of SC pro scene in Korea and how it totally changed the game. Even Blizzard.
2- Did Blizzard ask KeSPA to do advertising for them? Don't you think KeSPA's claim that "all our best tournaments are based on your games so that free promotion for you, that's how we pay you royalties" is very weak or even unacceptable from a business point of view? Blizzard wasn't one of those no name domestic gamemakers that paid KeSPA just so that they include their games into esport competitions.
Also I really do think most people who aren't on KeSPA side understand very well the history behind all this (a hint: check when they join TLnet). I also think most of us who came to TLnet do agree on one thing - the love for the beautiful gem which is the Korean SC proscene, its amazing tournaments and amazing players. The thing is many people seem to see KeSPA as the utmost representative of all that, while in fact it wasn't really the case.
Personally I want KeSPA to lose in this battle vs Blizzard simply because I think the Korean proscene deserves a better body and a better approach than KeSPA.
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. . . the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise
LoL if this is so true, then KeSPA has every right to refuse . . .
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Activision-Blizzard strikes again. Seems like the magic is gone.
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On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote:
I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it..
No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
you dont know much about european scene, right?
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On May 04 2010 22:13 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 17:41 QibingZero wrote:On May 04 2010 12:32 mrdx wrote:On May 04 2010 12:04 ShadeR wrote:On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident. I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it. Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention. Except that not only is the success of BW not an accident, it's also not solely Blizzard's prize to hold. It was the fact that Korea loved the game so much, got sponsors interested, refined the balance of the game to what it is today using maps, etc etc... years of work to build up to what we have today. Besides, Blizzard is getting plenty out of the deal, and that's even beyond the ridiculous amount of free advertising they get from it. The idea behind eSports is supposed to be that games that get popular due to eSports end up selling more copies as a result, and improve the reputation of game designers' like Blizzard (allowing them to further profit off future sales). It's like half the people posting don't have any clue about the history behind this discussion... Personally I want KeSPA to lose in this battle vs Blizzard simply because I think the Korean proscene deserves a better body and a better approach than KeSPA.
I dont know why so many hate kespa.. They are the ones that bring all the good stuff..
Kespa is OGN and MBC and teams.
Without kespa korean scene would be the same as foreign.
What if the alternative to kespa? Kespa is a body of ministry of culture.
Without kespa you have something like playxp tournament which I know nothing about as only replays are available.. Do you want pro tv broadcasts or having some tourneys that are like lan parties without tv coverage..
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Not only is MLG hugely successful, they have switched their Halo game from halo 2 to halo 3, and will probably move again to the new Halo game after its been out for a while.
Does microsoft charge them royalties to play/broadcast their game, or just thank them for the free advertising? Is it bad that blizzard is being greedier than M$?
Sc2 is gonna get reversed engineered for lan support eventually anyway.
This just gives kespa a reason to support another SuddenAttack.
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On May 04 2010 22:27 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote:
I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it..
No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube.. you dont know much about european scene, right?
Not much, because I dont care about it.. Korea/kespa has such a nice model with players playing in studios in front of audience with really nice tv production..
Its kinda like football.. You know that every saturday and sunday games are played.. You can just tune in and watch premier league / serie a / primera on channels that cover those leagues to watch your favorite team and players as the season progresses.. And then you also have national cups and uefa / champions league..
I dont know much about european sc scene but its probably played over internet casted over livestream with no real tournament structure or seasonal progression..
And yeah I dont follow football league of my country but I follow those big 3 european leagues in the same way I follow Korean leagues but dont follow others.
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Interesting to read about the other side of the story
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There is an outcome we all should be afraid of:
1) Blizzard 100% denies Kespa access to SC2 (easily done because of their no LAN EULA)
2) Kespa keeps BW rights because of secondary content law. In turn, they compete with blizzard using BW and other potential games they could pick up. That would severely hinder SC2 growth in Korea.
Don't get me wrong, i hate kespa. Muscling GOMTV out of the scene is the most despicable form of beating competition and a perfect example of abusing their e-sports monopoly. Their interests are NOT the players or fans, so don't buy their puppy face press appearance.
But we must think objectively, not emotionally. In the end, what scenario gives us what we want the most?
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On May 04 2010 22:13 mrdx wrote:2- Did Blizzard ask KeSPA to do advertising for them? Don't you think KeSPA's claim that "all our best tournaments are based on your games so that free promotion for you, that's how we pay you royalties" is very weak or even unacceptable from a business point of view?
And why do you think that Blizzard had give up on any potential broadcast rights for SC:BW in Korea for symbolic amount? To make that few $ or to get free advertisement that had sold them what 8-9mln copies of SC:BW more? They had sold 10mln how much would they sell without esport in Korea? How is that a bad business for them?
On May 04 2010 22:13 mrdx wrote:Blizzard wasn't one of those no name domestic gamemakers that paid KeSPA just so that they include their games into esport competitions.
No they got it pretty much for free, and since when big companies don't advertise?
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On May 04 2010 19:18 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote:
rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA. wtf? emotions before good sense?
Wasn't Tasteless a commentator for GOMTV?
If so, that might explain a portion of the hatred; KeSPA killed off GOMTV, and directly resulted in the unemployment of Day9's brother.
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IMO Kespa is going to have to deal with bliz being an Esports power one way or another.
I think now American/Canadian Esports are going to start to grow. helloooooo American televised tourneys
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Also how can you believe that Blizzard is doing it to not make people work for 70h/week, or to get better pay for players? What conditions that Blizzard had demanded are even relevant to it? If they would care about it then they would have that in the contract given to KeSPA.
Knowing finances =/= knowing how much somebody works
Knowing finances =/= ability to give somebody better pay
They want to know the fiances to know how much royalties they can get.
If they would want better conditions for players then they could for example request the change of free agency conditions.
Lets be realistic bigger pay for players = less royalties that Blizzard can take from esports. If you add up the pay of all players then you got pretty decent sum of money that Blizzard could take part of while putting no extra work. They were selling a damn 25$ virtual horse model for people that already pay 10-15$/month to Blizzard so maybe check some facts before you will say that Blizzard don't care about money becouse they make so much from wow subscriptions already, they even want to milk those subscribers.
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from my point of view, there seem to be two completely different approaches to the Starcraft II broadcasting rights.
Blizzard wants to sell the broadcasting rights for Starcraft II to a / the Korean TV station for a period of one year and demands additional revenue shares from marketing activities etc. This is, obviously, in their interest as they can, that way, adjust the price for the broadcasting rights in accordance to Starcraft II's popularity (in Korea probably err... HUGE!).
KeSPA wants to sign a TV broadcasting rights deal for 3+ several years and aims for a long-term contract as this provides them with better opportunities regarding sponsoring and cross-marketing rights.
In between the lines of both statements, I assume the main problem source for the negotiations seem to be the two different law systems in the US and Korea, where the two parties are based. It appears Blizzard made an offer based on USA law that is hard to "translate" / convert into Korean jurisdictionary restrictions and guidelines and the general Korean law system.
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On May 04 2010 22:46 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 22:27 imperator-xy wrote:On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote:
I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it..
No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube.. you dont know much about european scene, right? Not much, because I dont care about it.. Korea/kespa has such a nice model with players playing in studios in front of audience with really nice tv production.. Its kinda like football.. You know that every saturday and sunday games are played.. You can just tune in and watch premier league / serie a / primera on channels that cover those leagues to watch your favorite team and players as the season progresses.. And then you also have national cups and uefa / champions league.. I dont know much about european sc scene but its probably played over internet casted over livestream with no real tournament structure or seasonal progression.. And yeah I dont follow football league of my country but I follow those big 3 european leagues in the same way I follow Korean leagues but dont follow others.
i was talking about esport in general in europe, not only sc.
wc3 was a pretty big deal. all big teams the koreans played in were from europe and there were/are leagues and tournaments that happened/happen regularly, like intel extreme masters (a price money of llike 500 000$ total, wc3 was part of it before wow but sc2 will become part of it for sure) or ESWC.
but the most important part is the ESL i think. its building leagues all over europe. the EPS is the highest league in every country and right now i think germany, france, benelux, scandinavia, the alps (austria and switzerland), italy, spain, greece and the balkans do have an EPS with offline finals twice a year.
germany has the biggest with over 100 000€ price money (okay, there are like 5 different games) and offline matches for every playday, using locations for over 1 000 spectators.
im sure they will get better sponsors so that the price money will rise and sc2 will become the number 1 in europe (cs is number 1 now).
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EPT
