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On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG!
i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello.
Desti:
ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %)
ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %)
TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
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It's so much easier to blame the race than yourself.
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On July 17 2009 03:59 AzureEye wrote:Whats so funny Mr. 60 HP worker/Imba range tanks/fastest unit called vultures? Last time I checked, P army straight up can't win verse Terran army without storm, zealot drops, stasis, flank, etc. Hmm..Let me just click o (siege) and lay mines in the front (i) and just turtle like a bitch
I click (F) for both mine and siege
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United States10774 Posts
On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
shouldn't that be p>t, z>p, t>z?
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On July 17 2009 00:15 Cloud wrote:
Holy shit i just reached d+ with my off race while i cant win more than 2 straight games to save my life with terran!
Fuck yeah protoss i just proved is easier. Let's ask Flash next time to use protoss instead, he might then stay on an individual league for a change.
Flash played Protoss once televised. He was pretty good if you ask me.
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On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
No... No they do not. Even if the stats were reliable in and of themselves (they aren't), you've just contradicted yourself by saying P is better than or equal to Zerg. Zerg has as much a lead on Toss as Toss has over Terran. Then you say Z>T and Terran is doing as well as Protoss in PvT... lol.
EDIT: I must be being trolled. I'm dumb, oh well hahaha.
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United States10774 Posts
the best part is him saying z>t based on those stats lol
Chef: Lol no Yang is just that stupid
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Now, I'm a complete noob at rts games, so I can't comment out of experience. But I'd like to give my own view on this matter, if you don't mind.
Every gamer, in my experience, has his own style. Like you've got those risk taking, attacking players and the ultrasafe, defensive players. Or there are players who concentrate on tactics and players who concentrate on technique. There are cheesers, and there are people who like to refine one specific style of play. Then you've got those who love to do a little of everything.
Let me give you a few progaming examples. July is a good example of a risky, aggressive player. Flash, on the other hand, is known for his supersafe turtle play. Bisu is a player who can do everything pretty good, a jack-of-all-trades if you like. Then there is Leta who has his perfected wraith-build, and similarily Jaedong with his Mutaling play, but there are also players like Much and Horang2, who can't play the same strategy in a row, ever.
What I want to show you is the fact that July and Jaedong play zerg, that Leta and Flash play terran, and that Much and Bisu play protoss, not because they tossed a threesided coin. They've thought long and hard about it. Apparently, the Zerg loan itself to aggressive and technique heavy play. Terran has the defensive and tactical players. Protoss is the midfielder race, having a little of everything.
I guess you already had an idea about that. Now, isn't it the most obvious conclusion, then, that if you find the protoss easier for you, that your own playstyle fits the protoss better? Sure the zerg are a lot more cooler and you want to be the next SlayerS_BoxeR with terran, but you can't change who you are! Shouldn't you be happy that you've found your place in the starcraft game?
Like I've said, I have no actual Iccup experience to back it up. Its just my gutfeeling that what seems easier for some, might just be more difficult for the other, and vice versa.
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Fuck people who say protoss is easy. I'd agree that for a total newbie they could probably reach C- more easily with P than T but if they can do basic Z all-in type builds it's just as easy.
Playing P isn't an easier race by any means. The mechanics required are generally easier, but at higher levels that doesn't really matter since everyone has amazing mechanics.
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Personally for me TvP is the easiest MU in the game. I tihnk most people think Protoss is easy because most of their basic units don't have any abilities and you cna basically a - move over the opponent. Terran have to use abilities with all their units and that's something a low level player can't do or use properly. My strong point have always been micro so I never had problems with Terran or Zerg. When Terrans get better and use the abilities well it gets hard for Toss as they have to counter micro just as well. It all even out once Terrans and Zerg start to realize how ot use their units. The interface in BW also less of a bitch as you have smaller armies with Toss in general.
Just my thoughts.
ps. It's funny how upset Terrans get if you call their race easy, but they find it commmon sense that tosses shouldn't mind when someone call their race easy..
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On July 17 2009 00:11 Spider-Mine wrote:After you hit C with toss you unlock Terran and Zerg races. 
lol awesome
And yeah protoss is kind of the easy race, and would rip shit apart in progaming too, if it wasn't for PvZ.
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yep protoss is generally easier at the lower ranks because generally the micro/macro is easier compared to other races because the other races require more babysitting and using abilities like burrowing, stim, using siege mode. terran requires a little more apm, and this is what most lower level users lack, hence the gap between terran and protoss at low levels.
i'm not saying protoss is easy in general or anything, but i think most people would agree with me when i say if you are a lower rank then protoss is easier to play. at higher levels the game is balanced very well.
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On July 17 2009 06:25 YPang wrote:
...
o.o
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On July 17 2009 00:02 FreeDoM[YA] wrote:
-Many D Terrans don't prepare against shuttles in TvP
-D Zergs often bunch up their units.
- Lots of D Protoss seem to not play PvP very well.
I think you're playing D- people. Whenever I go shuttles, no matter how subtle I am about it, the Terran always has about 20 turrets in his base.
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On July 17 2009 06:25 YPang wrote:
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lol.
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Once you reach C+/B- (two seasons), you'll realize how hard it is to win games off of Terrans (PvZ gets pretty difficult around C actually).
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Yes, Protoss is so easy. I guess that explains why Protoss have their own Bonjwas and why they were so consistently successful until Bisu showed up....oh wait.
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On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
I think you are interpreting those numbers wrong lol
ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) = Zerg has only won 47% games over terran. Meaning T > Z with 53% winning rate
ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) = Zerg has a 52.1% win ratio vs protoss. Not the other way around. So P is not >/= Z, more like Z > P
and TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %) is showing that the Protoss has a winning rate of 53% over the Terran.
You may conclude that Destination favors Protoss slightly by those statistics.
However this map only shows the natural way of things: T > Z > P > T
Those map statistics might also contradict the theory that Protoss is the easy race, and "suggest" zerg is the easy race, if you compare the "easy" MU of each race (ZvP, TvZ, PvT), and the "hard"mu (ZvT, TvP, PvZ) percentage.
Often, ZvT seems to be much less difficult than PvZ (hard MU)
while PvT seems to be slightly easier than ZvP (easy MU)
Python
ZvsT 30297 - 28822 (51 %)
ZvsP 41876 - 39003 (51.78 %)
TvsP 38487 - 41387 (48 %)
Zerg has it MUCH easier ZvT than Protoss has it PvZ (hard MUs) - 51% vs 48.22%
Protoss has it only slightly easier PvT than zerg has ZvP (easy MUs) - 52% vs 51.78%
adding the percents:
Z (102.78%)
Protoss (100.22%)
Zodiac
Zerg (107.48%)
Protoss (93.52%)
Outsider
Zerg (105.24%)
Protoss (97.76%)
HeartBreak Ridge
Zerg (108.21%)
Protoss (101.79%)
Gaia
Zerg (103.38%)
Protoss (101.62%)
Neo Medusa
Zerg (104.59%)
Protoss (102.41%)
Gods Garden
Zerg (107.58%)
Protoss (100.42%)
Andromeda
Zerg (107.49%)
Protoss (97.51%)
Tau Cross I am surprised at that one! I thought it would be a Protoss map...
Zerg (107.33%)
Protoss (98.67%)
Some maps protoss came on top:
Luna
Protoss (103.45%)
Zerg (101.55%)
Colosseum
Protoss (103.18%)
Zerg (101.82%)
Longinus Protoss should celebrate when Longinus is MOTW
Protoss (110.22%) OUCH!
Zerg (92.78%)
Blue Storm
Protoss (108.27%)
Zerg (99.73%)
Sorry guys... But, statistically, Zerg is actually slightly easier than Protoss. o_O
And Terran is horribly difficult. *respect for Terran players*
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On July 17 2009 00:18 HuskyTheHusky wrote:how many Protoss do you see making it to the end of the big tournaments these days? ... 
The  Last...
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EPT
