EPTProtoss= Easy race? - Page 2
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
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micronesia
United States24769 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:41 Hot_Bid wrote: i think the bigger problem is that newer players try too much to emulate pro builds at D levels. theres really no reason to do risky, econ-heavy builds because at D/D+, nobody is going to exploit it that much. that means, if you need to 2 fac or ebay before you expo TvP, it won't cost you as much because the P doesn't have Bisu macro and won't roll you because of a slightly later CC. same for ZvP, there's no reason to 12h at D because you risk losing to 2 gate because your ling micro is bad. just 12p and be ultra safe and get to midgame. Quoted for truth. I think an example of this is when pros started to do FE pvz and all the noob p's tried doing it also (while I stuck to my 1 gate tech to see how things went). Pretty much every zerg learned to go ling all-in for the first 6 months or so because most protoss players didn't actually understand how to do a fe. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
People like you is why I usually reserve intelligent balance discussion for off the internet  | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
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IMlemon
Lithuania296 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:57 Sadistx wrote: People like you is why I usually reserve intelligent balance discussion for off the internet Your post was quite bad, to be honest :S. Listen to that hotbid guy. | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
If you look at that situation, it is much much easier for a low level player to mass up a giant ball of units, and move them around the map, than it is for a player to seige-unseige-push-plant mines-macro. Low level players don't have the skills to not only push properly, but to use their brain and understand where they are pushing to, and their ultimate goal from that push. Basically the matchup itself is fine, but the amount of multitasking etc it takes for terran , simply outnumbers what it takes for protoss (at the D-C ranks) which obviously gives a relative advantage in PvT at lower levels. Lastly, terran vs protoss is heavily timing based. Majority of terran attacks are timing based, and at the D ranks its extremely hard to know when that timing is, and when to exploit it. So basically low level protoss players can still have the skill level to execute their gameplan properly, while low level terran players have soo much on their plate, its almost autoloss lol. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
I am a protoss player too. I have started as Zerg, then Terran and now I settled with Protoss. Yes, Protoss is definitely the easiest race to play. At lower levels, PvT is almost a joke, and PvZ is often not too hard. I think it is because Protoss is quite rounded up race, with good mobility, easy to macro, strong defense and high HP units. You can often pull your units out of fight before taking too much damage to change the outcome of the game. Unlike Terrans and Zerg, who can get their entire army wiped in seconds by a storm, hold lurkers, sieged tanks, etc. However, I dont think Zerg is much harder. Zerg is about just as easy as protoss. You can pull a lot of builds that will give you easy wins. Zergs are so flexible and mobile, you can switch strategies to fool your opponent so quickly. Plus, Zerg has overlords which often prevents you from surprising them. Once you get at C~ level with Protoss, you will find out PvZ is not catching fish on a bucket. Terran, finally, is a race I deeply respect. If you are Terran players, I take my hat off for you. You are a truly manly man. Playing Terran is just so freaking hard. The amount multitask needed in each match up is just phenomenal, and the amount of unit management just as well. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:59 IMlemon wrote: Your post was quite bad, to be honest :S. Listen to that hotbid guy. And that's exactly why I said what I said sick of people always brining down protoss for an easy race when they don't know what they're talking about =\ | ||
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Pioneer
994 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote: TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost. Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost. Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost. Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost. Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost. Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard. Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins. A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss. I played terran and zerg 2 seasons ago through mid season. Hit C- with Zerg and C with Terran. Reaver's AI is incredibly shitty, learn to make turrets don't siege your tanks to close to mines or over mines, be safe and make an ebay, wall if you can (stops proxy gates pretty easily if you aren't stupid enough to not scout your base), siege expand and learn to micro your units. As lokiM said you probably lose to stupid shit like that at D+ because you're bad. Terran as a race rewards playing as safe as possible early game. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
Protoss is easy because they have warping buildings, that don't have a hidden cost due to workers not mining, and they have true bread and butter units, or 1a2a3a as this is affectionately called within the community, but they have no fucking firepower. The fact that they run suicidal zealots into our tank lines expresses this best: they are killing us with our own splash damage! There is a good reason why they are the weakest race at progamer level, be assured. If I may make a C&C Red Alert analogy, the soviet mammoth tanks captivated the minds of the newbie players, but if you got to a better understanding of unit control in that game, as well as got rid of that gawdawful "no attack for the first 10 minutes" convention so many desired on lan games, the mammoths could not win a single game! Protoss is indeed the noob race, and yes sir, despite your enviable rank, you are still a noob. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:56 Tom Phoenix wrote: Every time I hear someone say Protoss is easy, I get the urge to assemble all of my Protoss games (nearly all of them are losses) into a replay pack and sending it to that person. If that statement were true, then I should be winning most of the time by that logic. You do understand that everyone actually knows that all races are balanced? The thing is tho that if you switched to zerg or terran you would win less, because they are harder to learn from the start. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
on higher levels protoss become more challenging because u will need to be able to perform more mechanically demanding strats like sair/reaver and because at higher levels toss is the race where correctly reading and adapting to ur opponent is most crucial. additionally, the higher u climb in the ranks, the more important will good storm use and control of ur crucial units become. sc is perfectly balanced at higher skill levels, but it is slightly imbalanced in the form toss>zerg>terran at low levels. i mean... imagine 3 guys who have never played sc before, but got quite some rts experience and some solid 80 apm. lets assume they got about the same amount of gamesense or tactical understanding. give them 2 weeks of practice, each of them picks one of the 3 races, and then let them battle it out in bo10s. id bet 500€ on the protoss guy winning overall. on the other hand, and there is really no pun intended, this line of argumentation means that complaining about toss being overpowered is a strong indicator that this complaining person is itself belonging to the lower regions of the skill scale. | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:23 AzureEye wrote: Once you hit the upper ranks like C+ and above, I heard playing Terran is easier than Protoss False. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:18 HuskyTheHusky wrote: how many Protoss do you see making it to the end of the big tournaments these days? ...  He never said they were good. edit: some good points were actually brought up though in this thread. | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On July 17 2009 01:21 lazz wrote: this thread is fucking pathetic. get over yourselves. Your average Protoss player. | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
On July 17 2009 01:31 Black Gun wrote: on the other hand, and there is really no pun intended, this line of argumentation means that complaining about toss being overpowered is a strong indicator that this complaining person is itself belonging to the lower regions of the skill scale. so idra/artosis must be low skilled, i see it now. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On July 17 2009 01:50 YPang wrote: so idra/artosis must be low skilled, i see it now. i was talking about an indicator, not a strict rule. correlation does not imply causality. but yes, in most cases that rule of thumb holds: if some1 complains about toss being too easy chances are high he sucks. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On July 17 2009 01:05 Leath wrote: Partially agree. I am a protoss player too. I have started as Zerg, then Terran and now I settled with Protoss. Yes, Protoss is definitely the easiest race to play. At lower levels, PvT is almost a joke, and PvZ is often not too hard. I think it is because Protoss is quite rounded up race, with good mobility, easy to macro, strong defense and high HP units. You can often pull your units out of fight before taking too much damage to change the outcome of the game. Unlike Terrans and Zerg, who can get their entire army wiped in seconds by a storm, hold lurkers, sieged tanks, etc. However, I dont think Zerg is much harder. Zerg is about just as easy as protoss. You can pull a lot of builds that will give you easy wins. Zergs are so flexible and mobile, you can switch strategies to fool your opponent so quickly. Plus, Zerg has overlords which often prevents you from surprising them. Once you get at C~ level with Protoss, you will find out PvZ is not catching fish on a bucket. Terran, finally, is a race I deeply respect. If you are Terran players, I take my hat off for you. You are a truly manly man. Playing Terran is just so freaking hard. The amount multitask needed in each match up is just phenomenal, and the amount of unit management just as well. You can pull off that stuff as zerg easily...yeh... especially if your C with lots of experience. The thing is, every race is hard, and more so at different stages. At D Z>T probably because terran sucks vs lurkers, decent muta micro, sometimes macro since terran is hard to macro at D level with limited knowledge At C- Terrans, vs zerg and protoss, are pretty mechanically strong and zvt is a pain in the ass and pvt is no longer just make units and attack, or make dts and hope, but it's really frustrating dealing with mines, strong tank lines, harassing vultures etc. It's true zerg can get away with alot of cheese, but mainly vs protoss. The old starcraft P>T>Z>P applies to cheese, or instead of saying cheese, easier to win builds at lower levels, as terrans have bbs, bunker rush, even sunk breaks that can easily win vs zerg, zerg have 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, 5 pool, runby, 3 hatch ling vs protoss (however i never do this, so zerg is really hard for me through the D/C ranks T.T), and PvT... i won't even go there. but through d/d+ in even matchups, the ZvP "easy win" builds are the way most zergs win because zerg is much weaker then with larvae management and babysitting, and protoss can easily win with standard play, but can still fall for an easy cheese. Protoss have 2 gate, which many zergs nowadays don't know how to deal with, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush - all of these are protoss "cheese" builds that at lower levels, work as well or better than the zerg builds, so protoss is stronger naturally vs terran at lower levels, and is strong vs zerg still. So besides the slightly easier mechanics for protoss at lower levels, they are less vulnerable to terran cheese, and can win in a standard macro game vs zerg, if they survive surprise muta rushes, and all the cheeses listed above, they pretty much win, but vsing lurkers aswell in a standard game can be sloppy, so it's sort of P=Z. In my experience past d+ i really suck at zvp in a standard macro game vs a protoss who's decent... i see someone like jaedong pull off a build vs a protoss and easily win, and it seems that protoss has half the stuff a d+ player has, and that's where you see the depth of zerg. Right now in the pro-scene protoss are suffering hard. At pro level, where terrans have pretty much impecible defence, and zergs have all the timings and counters down, as protoss, you need to throw in tricks and counter with the limited options you have, and right now along with slight map imbalance, they aren't coping with strong zerg builds, and terran are pretty strong right now aswell. I wouldn't want to be a protoss progamer to be honest. | ||
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