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So this morning I hit D+. And that was shortly after I decided to switch to protoss. I'm glad I hit D+ but I'm also sad that it seems that it was with an easy race.
D+ Account
Look at my Protoss wins, then look at my terran wins. It's kind of pathetic to see that the newer race I have is doing better than my old one.
I learned this in my games.
-Many D Terrans don't prepare against shuttles in TvP
-D Zergs often bunch up their units.
- Lots of D Protoss seem to not play PvP very well.
But I also found
- Protoss can be easily destroyed by the Zerg as long as Zerg can control the battle
- Protoss can't do shit against a good-harass terran.
So this is my rant about Protoss, as I am one. IT's kind of upsetting to see these results that I picked the easy race.
 
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Don't worry you will be C very soon.
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After you hit C with toss you unlock Terran and Zerg races. 
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On July 17 2009 00:11 Spider-Mine wrote:After you hit C with toss you unlock Terran and Zerg races.
Hahahaha
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Holy shit i just reached d+ with my off race while i cant win more than 2 straight games to save my life with terran!
Fuck yeah protoss i just proved is easier. Let's ask Flash next time to use protoss instead, he might then stay on an individual league for a change.
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how many Protoss do you see making it to the end of the big tournaments these days?
... 
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Protoss may be easy to start with but is the hardest race to master
Once you hit the upper ranks like C+ and above, I heard playing Terran is easier than Protoss
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TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss.
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On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss.
this is just because you're very bad
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On July 17 2009 00:02 FreeDoM[YA] wrote:So this morning I hit D+. And that was shortly after I decided to switch to protoss. I'm glad I hit D+ but I'm also sad that it seems that it was with an easy race. D+ AccountLook at my Protoss wins, then look at my terran wins. It's kind of pathetic to see that the newer race I have is doing better than my old one. I learned this in my games. -Many D Terrans don't prepare against shuttles in TvP -D Zergs often bunch up their units. - Lots of D Protoss seem to not play PvP very well. But I also found - Protoss can be easily destroyed by the Zerg as long as Zerg can control the battle - Protoss can't do shit against a good-harass terran. So this is my rant about Protoss, as I am one. IT's kind of upsetting to see these results that I picked the easy race.
this game is perfectly balanced at higher levels, it's mainly about maps these days.. not race.
protoss is easier to understand at D level and players don't have great micro/micro, so it's easier to take 12 protoss units and wipe out a group of terran units, this is 1 of the reasons why every1 thinks protoss is easy but it really isn't at higher levels
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On July 17 2009 00:31 lokiM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss. this is just because you're very bad
D players are bad by definition. The point is that its easier for a bad player to win PvT rather than TvP.
edit: seems you agree with me based on the above post :p
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United States3824 Posts
Sounds like you summed up all of competitive SC right there.
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On July 17 2009 00:33 oxidized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 00:31 lokiM wrote:On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss. this is just because you're very bad D players are bad by definition. The point is that its easier for a bad player to win PvT rather than TvP. edit: seems you agree with me based on the above post :p
my point was only a fraction of players can't get out of D level, even then it's not imbalanced it's just slightly easier to understand.
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Braavos36374 Posts
i think the bigger problem is that newer players try too much to emulate pro builds at D levels. theres really no reason to do risky, econ-heavy builds because at D/D+, nobody is going to exploit it that much. that means, if you need to 2 fac or ebay before you expo TvP, it won't cost you as much because the P doesn't have Bisu macro and won't roll you because of a slightly later CC. same for ZvP, there's no reason to 12h at D because you risk losing to 2 gate because your ling micro is bad. just 12p and be ultra safe and get to midgame.
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Yeah, so easy that I only need pylons to win.
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It's certainly the easiest race at the lowest levels, once you begin to get good at it you'll realize how difficult it really is though. Things balance out better at the higher ranks.
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Now just imagine what Jaedong would do if he switched to protoss.
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Every time I hear someone say Protoss is easy, I get the urge to assemble all of my Protoss games (nearly all of them are losses) into a replay pack and sending it to that person. If that statement were true, then I should be winning most of the time by that logic.
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why more "easy mode" blogs ><
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United States24666 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:41 Hot_Bid wrote:
i think the bigger problem is that newer players try too much to emulate pro builds at D levels. theres really no reason to do risky, econ-heavy builds because at D/D+, nobody is going to exploit it that much. that means, if you need to 2 fac or ebay before you expo TvP, it won't cost you as much because the P doesn't have Bisu macro and won't roll you because of a slightly later CC. same for ZvP, there's no reason to 12h at D because you risk losing to 2 gate because your ling micro is bad. just 12p and be ultra safe and get to midgame.
Quoted for truth.
I think an example of this is when pros started to do FE pvz and all the noob p's tried doing it also (while I stuck to my 1 gate tech to see how things went). Pretty much every zerg learned to go ling all-in for the first 6 months or so because most protoss players didn't actually understand how to do a fe.
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On July 17 2009 00:31 lokiM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss. this is just because you're very bad
People like you is why I usually reserve intelligent balance discussion for off the internet 
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Screw you protoss haters, it takes a lot to play it at high levels too!
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On July 17 2009 00:57 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 00:31 lokiM wrote:On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss. this is just because you're very bad People like you is why I usually reserve intelligent balance discussion for off the internet
Your post was quite bad, to be honest :S. Listen to that hotbid guy.
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Protoss players tend to beat terran players at the D-C- level rather easily because of a number of factors. TvP is played using strategical thinking, combined with alot of multitasking when pushing. PvT however can be played simply by massing units and attack moving when the terran unseiges, or when you hit 200 with arbiter or w/e. (not saying its always that easy)
If you look at that situation, it is much much easier for a low level player to mass up a giant ball of units, and move them around the map, than it is for a player to seige-unseige-push-plant mines-macro. Low level players don't have the skills to not only push properly, but to use their brain and understand where they are pushing to, and their ultimate goal from that push.
Basically the matchup itself is fine, but the amount of multitasking etc it takes for terran , simply outnumbers what it takes for protoss (at the D-C ranks) which obviously gives a relative advantage in PvT at lower levels.
Lastly, terran vs protoss is heavily timing based. Majority of terran attacks are timing based, and at the D ranks its extremely hard to know when that timing is, and when to exploit it. So basically low level protoss players can still have the skill level to execute their gameplan properly, while low level terran players have soo much on their plate, its almost autoloss lol.
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Partially agree.
I am a protoss player too. I have started as Zerg, then Terran and now I settled with Protoss.
Yes, Protoss is definitely the easiest race to play. At lower levels, PvT is almost a joke, and PvZ is often not too hard.
I think it is because Protoss is quite rounded up race, with good mobility, easy to macro, strong defense and high HP units. You can often pull your units out of fight before taking too much damage to change the outcome of the game. Unlike Terrans and Zerg, who can get their entire army wiped in seconds by a storm, hold lurkers, sieged tanks, etc.
However, I dont think Zerg is much harder. Zerg is about just as easy as protoss. You can pull a lot of builds that will give you easy wins. Zergs are so flexible and mobile, you can switch strategies to fool your opponent so quickly. Plus, Zerg has overlords which often prevents you from surprising them. Once you get at C~ level with Protoss, you will find out PvZ is not catching fish on a bucket.
Terran, finally, is a race I deeply respect. If you are Terran players, I take my hat off for you. You are a truly manly man. Playing Terran is just so freaking hard. The amount multitask needed in each match up is just phenomenal, and the amount of unit management just as well.
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Once you start facing decent Zs (C/C+ and above), PvZ will seem impossible because there is so much the zerg can do with so little indication of what he's doing, including dictating the macro battle. If you get a nice BO and stick to it, of course it's incredibly easy to hit C- and even C as P, but it's ridiculously hard to progress beyond that.
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On July 17 2009 00:59 IMlemon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 00:57 Sadistx wrote:On July 17 2009 00:31 lokiM wrote:On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss. this is just because you're very bad People like you is why I usually reserve intelligent balance discussion for off the internet Your post was quite bad, to be honest :S. Listen to that hotbid guy.
And that's exactly why I said what I said
sick of people always brining down protoss for an easy race when they don't know what they're talking about =\
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On July 17 2009 00:25 Sadistx wrote:
TvP is a hard matchup for T, because it allows very few mistakes for the terran during early game
Oops, missed that 2 gate scout by a pixel? You lost.
Oops, goons somehow managed to snipe that first tank? You lost.
Oops, didn't scout the entire map for proxy archives? You lost.
Oops, toss got a lucky scarab shot that killed 8 scvs? You lost.
Self-mine daebak by a lucky zealot? You lost.
Pro level gamers can recover from any of those (almost), but for D-level, it's very very hard.
Of course once you get past early game, you can actually start to afford to lose units to toss and that's where the fun begins.
A lot of tosses just reply with "HURR DURR L2P", but that just shows how terrible/biased they are, since they probably played a couple of TvPs years ago, got nerdraged and switched to toss.
I played terran and zerg 2 seasons ago through mid season. Hit C- with Zerg and C with Terran.
Reaver's AI is incredibly shitty, learn to make turrets don't siege your tanks to close to mines or over mines, be safe and make an ebay, wall if you can (stops proxy gates pretty easily if you aren't stupid enough to not scout your base), siege expand and learn to micro your units.
As lokiM said you probably lose to stupid shit like that at D+ because you're bad. Terran as a race rewards playing as safe as possible early game.
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this thread is fucking pathetic. get over yourselves.
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The scourge of Terran is the bad interface. All our units have special abilities but not as a complement as much as a requirement in order to be effective. However, in order to use them properly we need to select a single unit type which impairs our ability to micro well, and requires that we waste more time assigning hotkeys. What if Blizzard made all abilities have different hotkeys so we could use them regardless of how we draw the boxes around them? What if you could tap i twice and all vultures would lay mines where they are? What if tanks could take orders immediately after you press o?
Protoss is easy because they have warping buildings, that don't have a hidden cost due to workers not mining, and they have true bread and butter units, or 1a2a3a as this is affectionately called within the community, but they have no fucking firepower. The fact that they run suicidal zealots into our tank lines expresses this best: they are killing us with our own splash damage! There is a good reason why they are the weakest race at progamer level, be assured.
If I may make a C&C Red Alert analogy, the soviet mammoth tanks captivated the minds of the newbie players, but if you got to a better understanding of unit control in that game, as well as got rid of that gawdawful "no attack for the first 10 minutes" convention so many desired on lan games, the mammoths could not win a single game!
Protoss is indeed the noob race, and yes sir, despite your enviable rank, you are still a noob.
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On July 17 2009 00:56 Tom Phoenix wrote:
Every time I hear someone say Protoss is easy, I get the urge to assemble all of my Protoss games (nearly all of them are losses) into a replay pack and sending it to that person. If that statement were true, then I should be winning most of the time by that logic.
You do understand that everyone actually knows that all races are balanced? The thing is tho that if you switched to zerg or terran you would win less, because they are harder to learn from the start.
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lacking mechanics affect toss less than zerg or terran, thats one of the main reasons why toss are easier at low levels. another reason is that their macro is more easy, so against many d/d+ zergs or terrans u can just win by outmacroing them.
on higher levels protoss become more challenging because u will need to be able to perform more mechanically demanding strats like sair/reaver and because at higher levels toss is the race where correctly reading and adapting to ur opponent is most crucial. additionally, the higher u climb in the ranks, the more important will good storm use and control of ur crucial units become.
sc is perfectly balanced at higher skill levels, but it is slightly imbalanced in the form toss>zerg>terran at low levels.
i mean... imagine 3 guys who have never played sc before, but got quite some rts experience and some solid 80 apm. lets assume they got about the same amount of gamesense or tactical understanding. give them 2 weeks of practice, each of them picks one of the 3 races, and then let them battle it out in bo10s. id bet 500€ on the protoss guy winning overall.
on the other hand, and there is really no pun intended, this line of argumentation means that complaining about toss being overpowered is a strong indicator that this complaining person is itself belonging to the lower regions of the skill scale.
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On July 17 2009 00:23 AzureEye wrote:
Once you hit the upper ranks like C+ and above, I heard playing Terran is easier than Protoss
False.
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On July 17 2009 00:18 HuskyTheHusky wrote:how many Protoss do you see making it to the end of the big tournaments these days? ...
He never said they were good.
edit: some good points were actually brought up though in this thread.
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On July 17 2009 01:21 lazz wrote:
this thread is fucking pathetic. get over yourselves.
Your average Protoss player.
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On July 17 2009 01:31 Black Gun wrote:
on the other hand, and there is really no pun intended, this line of argumentation means that complaining about toss being overpowered is a strong indicator that this complaining person is itself belonging to the lower regions of the skill scale.
so idra/artosis must be low skilled, i see it now.
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On July 17 2009 01:50 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 01:31 Black Gun wrote:
on the other hand, and there is really no pun intended, this line of argumentation means that complaining about toss being overpowered is a strong indicator that this complaining person is itself belonging to the lower regions of the skill scale. so idra/artosis must be low skilled, i see it now.
i was talking about an indicator, not a strict rule. correlation does not imply causality.
but yes, in most cases that rule of thumb holds: if some1 complains about toss being too easy chances are high he sucks.
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On July 17 2009 01:05 Leath wrote:
Partially agree.
I am a protoss player too. I have started as Zerg, then Terran and now I settled with Protoss.
Yes, Protoss is definitely the easiest race to play. At lower levels, PvT is almost a joke, and PvZ is often not too hard.
I think it is because Protoss is quite rounded up race, with good mobility, easy to macro, strong defense and high HP units. You can often pull your units out of fight before taking too much damage to change the outcome of the game. Unlike Terrans and Zerg, who can get their entire army wiped in seconds by a storm, hold lurkers, sieged tanks, etc.
However, I dont think Zerg is much harder. Zerg is about just as easy as protoss. You can pull a lot of builds that will give you easy wins. Zergs are so flexible and mobile, you can switch strategies to fool your opponent so quickly. Plus, Zerg has overlords which often prevents you from surprising them. Once you get at C~ level with Protoss, you will find out PvZ is not catching fish on a bucket.
Terran, finally, is a race I deeply respect. If you are Terran players, I take my hat off for you. You are a truly manly man. Playing Terran is just so freaking hard. The amount multitask needed in each match up is just phenomenal, and the amount of unit management just as well.
You can pull off that stuff as zerg easily...yeh... especially if your C with lots of experience.
The thing is, every race is hard, and more so at different stages.
At D Z>T probably because terran sucks vs lurkers, decent muta micro, sometimes macro since terran is hard to macro at D level with limited knowledge
At C- Terrans, vs zerg and protoss, are pretty mechanically strong and zvt is a pain in the ass and pvt is no longer just make units and attack, or make dts and hope, but it's really frustrating dealing with mines, strong tank lines, harassing vultures etc.
It's true zerg can get away with alot of cheese, but mainly vs protoss. The old starcraft P>T>Z>P applies to cheese, or instead of saying cheese, easier to win builds at lower levels, as terrans have bbs, bunker rush, even sunk breaks that can easily win vs zerg, zerg have 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, 5 pool, runby, 3 hatch ling vs protoss (however i never do this, so zerg is really hard for me through the D/C ranks T.T), and PvT... i won't even go there.
but through d/d+ in even matchups, the ZvP "easy win" builds are the way most zergs win because zerg is much weaker then with larvae management and babysitting, and protoss can easily win with standard play, but can still fall for an easy cheese. Protoss have 2 gate, which many zergs nowadays don't know how to deal with, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush - all of these are protoss "cheese" builds that at lower levels, work as well or better than the zerg builds, so protoss is stronger naturally vs terran at lower levels, and is strong vs zerg still.
So besides the slightly easier mechanics for protoss at lower levels, they are less vulnerable to terran cheese, and can win in a standard macro game vs zerg, if they survive surprise muta rushes, and all the cheeses listed above, they pretty much win, but vsing lurkers aswell in a standard game can be sloppy, so it's sort of P=Z. In my experience past d+ i really suck at zvp in a standard macro game vs a protoss who's decent... i see someone like jaedong pull off a build vs a protoss and easily win, and it seems that protoss has half the stuff a d+ player has, and that's where you see the depth of zerg.
Right now in the pro-scene protoss are suffering hard. At pro level, where terrans have pretty much impecible defence, and zergs have all the timings and counters down, as protoss, you need to throw in tricks and counter with the limited options you have, and right now along with slight map imbalance, they aren't coping with strong zerg builds, and terran are pretty strong right now aswell. I wouldn't want to be a protoss progamer to be honest.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On July 17 2009 00:23 AzureEye wrote:
Protoss may be easy to start with but is the hardest race to master
Once you hit the upper ranks like C+ and above, I heard playing Terran is easier than Protoss
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On July 17 2009 00:41 Hot_Bid wrote:
i think the bigger problem is that newer players try too much to emulate pro builds at D levels. theres really no reason to do risky, econ-heavy builds because at D/D+, nobody is going to exploit it that much. that means, if you need to 2 fac or ebay before you expo TvP, it won't cost you as much because the P doesn't have Bisu macro and won't roll you because of a slightly later CC. same for ZvP, there's no reason to 12h at D because you risk losing to 2 gate because your ling micro is bad. just 12p and be ultra safe and get to midgame.
I used to practice with my friend (ZvT) and he was always like 'YOU LOST BECAUSE YOU BUILT YOUR SUNKENS TOO EARLY!', but then, looking at the replay, I see that his macro was terrible. It's always like that, he's right about me building sunkens too early or unnecessarily, but in the end it doesn't really affect the game.
-----
To the OP, go Zerg!
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United States11390 Posts
On July 17 2009 01:57 Clow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 00:41 Hot_Bid wrote:
i think the bigger problem is that newer players try too much to emulate pro builds at D levels. theres really no reason to do risky, econ-heavy builds because at D/D+, nobody is going to exploit it that much. that means, if you need to 2 fac or ebay before you expo TvP, it won't cost you as much because the P doesn't have Bisu macro and won't roll you because of a slightly later CC. same for ZvP, there's no reason to 12h at D because you risk losing to 2 gate because your ling micro is bad. just 12p and be ultra safe and get to midgame. I used to practice with my friend (ZvT) and he was always like 'YOU LOST BECAUSE YOU BUILT YOUR SUNKENS TOO EARLY!', but then, looking at the replay, I see that his macro was terrible. It's always like that, he's right about me building sunkens too early or unnecessarily, but in the end it doesn't really affect the game. ----- To the OP, go Zerg!
You never even play anymore. :[
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I dont think anyone can speak for the A level progamers at top like jaedong/bisu, no one has any idea what they feel is hard and what not. The CLOSEST any foreigner can assume about progamer level at most is B level because we've seen idra play at that.
It seems to me that some of the top progamers knows the game so well that they can sorta guess what your doing by looking at your worker saturation and the time they scout you. They see stuff regular people don't, and they can adapt to situations most people would think "Omg protoss take so much skill to know terran is 2fac'ing, he's a master of mind games". Its not the case at all, they played so much they can TELL if terran is going 2 fac or not just by the timing of his marines and how many marines he makes. Its not hard if you play 10 hours a day. Its sorta like timing pushes with terran, when terran sees toss's 2nd nexus goes down, his timing of when to push out ISN"T HARD, its how he controls the army that is hard. And AT MOST protoss's mechanics at top level imo is equivalent of terrans (thats if they do a bunch of harrasses). In my opinion races like zergs/terran they practice to get their mechanics at top tier shape, but protoss practice to be able to read these little cues without faluire. Especially for zerg at high levels they are so mechanically demanding any sort of mistake can lose them the game, thats why top zergs are so unstable.
There's a reason why protoss is the most popular race for iccup and progamers (If you seen artosis's video of the amateur draft you'd see the majority is protoss).
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i think while protoss at lower levels is alot easier but it gets harder when u move up because everyone else has had to learn how to beat protoss builds and strategies to get from D to say C. so at this point where everyone has more experience against protoss, protoss players must be better than zerg and terran to advance past this point
then again there is also preference and play style
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Why did you put a question mark in the title?
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On July 17 2009 00:23 AzureEye wrote:
Protoss may be easy to start with but is the hardest race to master
Once you hit the upper ranks like C+ and above, I heard playing Terran is easier than Protoss
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"Terran is easier" hahahha
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16978 Posts
I think he means Terran has an easier time against people around the same rank (C+ish) than others. A C+ Terran will likely beat a C+ Protoss.
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A C+ Terran will not "likely" beat a C+ Protoss, because if that were the case then all the C+ Terrans would rank up to B-. If both a protoss and a terran are maintaining the same stable rank, be it D or A, then they must have the same winning percentage. The only question one can reasonably ask is if it takes more skill/time/effort for a terran to rank up to C+ than for a protoss too.
There is some bandwagon mentality that it should be easier for the toss but I don't think that there is any hard evidence either way. In my own personal experience the jump from D to D+ is easiest for toss, but beyond that it is not so clear.
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Everyone has their own play styles and preferences for how they prioritize actions and thoughts. Sometimes one race favours this much more than another race.
Current Protoss trends in progaming favour a very macro oriented "make units and attack" style of game play. It didn't used to (Protoss was much more about constant harass for a time) but now it is. This favours particular mindsets for people who just want to focus on themselves. Get my bases up, make my army, defend properly, and I'll be okay. That's a very common line of thought for people who feel the threat of losses at their level. In that sense, Protoss will be easier for a lot of people, because current Zerg and Terran trends require totally different mindsets (you can't be scared of losing, because you just get so far behind).
I don't really think any race is easier than the others. The problem is everyone saying "play safe, and scout properly" is only really good advice for Protoss. While it's important for other races, new players tend to overthink it and lose games because of it.
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P is easy at the bottom.
Since Bisu, P is also "easy" at the top. Although Zergs have enjoyed a lot of success lately, and T is strong as it always has been at the pro level where everyone is insanely good at multitasking.
P is also "easy" for foreign top gamers. I don't know about the distribution right now, but 2 years ago or so foreign Ps were really damn strong.
Basically, ever since 2007/Bisu started raping Zergs, and the world copied his builds and improved in mechanics as well, the balance has shifted in favor of P because every *other* race has 1 weak matchup, 1 strong matchup, 1 fair matchup (the mirror). But when looking at P since 2007, they now have 1 strong matchup and 2 fair matchups. No weak matchup anymore.
Furthermore, SC1 is a heavily multitasking-oriented game, and the race which requires the least amount of multitasking is P (relatively speaking) because you can't lose half your army "by accident" and have more time to macro.
Furthermore, almost all top foreigners who went to Korea and were quite successful (even if some left the country again fast) were Protoss (Grrrr, Draco, Nony). Just 1 Terran now, and zero Zergs afaik. So Protoss is/was definitely easy for top foreigners (and not just noobs).
Well, you can add 1 + 1 I guess...
Don't let those iccup C/B gamers fool you just because *they* find P hard. 
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United States10774 Posts
lol this thread is hilariously pathetic. yes, protoss is the easiest at D/D+ ranks where everybody is terrible. why don't you stop crying, get a little better, and then try playing protoss at a higher level? i guarantee you will shut up about the "easy" bullshit
reading this after having lost four PvTs and three PvZs in a row sort of tilts me lol
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God, so many people biased and defensive about their race ...
It's StarCraft, there is no easy race. Yes, the protoss is the easiest to pick up and reach the high levels with, but it is by no means easy. As having the privilege of playing the most competitive and challenging game there is, we should be above the scrubbery that is complaining about other races being op or too easy. You all watch progames, you all know that in terms of game balance it doesn't get any better on Earth then Starcraft. Even at top levels. The very fact that each race has a representative in the top 3 rated players is just amazing enough. It's not perfect balance, but it's the best.
edit: removed something bleh
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I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG!
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On July 17 2009 03:05 Zoler wrote:
"Terran is easier" hahahha
Whats so funny Mr. 60 HP worker/Imba range tanks/fastest unit called vultures?
Last time I checked, P army straight up can't win verse Terran army without storm, zealot drops, stasis, flank, etc.
Hmm..Let me just click o (siege) and lay mines in the front (i) and just turtle like a bitch
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I'm a Terran, and I've struggled hard on iccup. I've got thoughts over and over again about chageing to protoss. BUT NO! I'm sticking with terran hardmode. I remember some time ago, when I used to play protoss alot more (still played terran 10 times more) some people in my clan said that my toss was better. Funny, says all about the race.
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On July 17 2009 03:59 AzureEye wrote:Whats so funny Mr. 60 HP worker/Imba range tanks/fastest unit called vultures? Last time I checked, P army straight up can't win verse Terran army without storm, zealot drops, stasis, flank, etc. Hmm..Let me just click o (siege) and lay mines in the front (i) and just turtle like a bitch
Yes, P has trouble beating a stationary Terran army if it uses no tactics and just suicides into them. The same goes for Zerg and Bio TvZ. Sorry this game demands you make your units move around, it would be much more fun if everything was decided by how many units you can build.
On July 17 2009 04:02 ThePhan2m wrote:
I'm a Terran, and I've struggled hard on iccup. I've got thoughts over and over again about chageing to protoss. BUT NO! I'm sticking with terran hardmode. I remember some time ago, when I used to play protoss alot more (still played terran 10 times more) some people in my clan said that my toss was better. Funny, says all about the race.
It says it suits your play style better. Some people switch from Toss to another race and find they do loads better too. Sometimes people who play a race refuse to use their Dark Templar, or their Vultures, or their Mutalisks in any very aggressive ways. But then they switch to another race and remember how annoying one of those units was to be used against them and abuse it all the time.
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On July 17 2009 02:55 Crunchums wrote:
Why did you put a question mark in the title?
ZING!
Kingdoms thoughts on Protoss:
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On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG!
i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello.
Desti:
ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %)
ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %)
TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
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It's so much easier to blame the race than yourself.
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On July 17 2009 03:59 AzureEye wrote:Whats so funny Mr. 60 HP worker/Imba range tanks/fastest unit called vultures? Last time I checked, P army straight up can't win verse Terran army without storm, zealot drops, stasis, flank, etc. Hmm..Let me just click o (siege) and lay mines in the front (i) and just turtle like a bitch
I click (F) for both mine and siege
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United States10774 Posts
On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
shouldn't that be p>t, z>p, t>z?
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On July 17 2009 00:15 Cloud wrote:
Holy shit i just reached d+ with my off race while i cant win more than 2 straight games to save my life with terran!
Fuck yeah protoss i just proved is easier. Let's ask Flash next time to use protoss instead, he might then stay on an individual league for a change.
Flash played Protoss once televised. He was pretty good if you ask me.
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On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
No... No they do not. Even if the stats were reliable in and of themselves (they aren't), you've just contradicted yourself by saying P is better than or equal to Zerg. Zerg has as much a lead on Toss as Toss has over Terran. Then you say Z>T and Terran is doing as well as Protoss in PvT... lol.
EDIT: I must be being trolled. I'm dumb, oh well hahaha.
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United States10774 Posts
the best part is him saying z>t based on those stats lol
Chef: Lol no Yang is just that stupid
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Now, I'm a complete noob at rts games, so I can't comment out of experience. But I'd like to give my own view on this matter, if you don't mind.
Every gamer, in my experience, has his own style. Like you've got those risk taking, attacking players and the ultrasafe, defensive players. Or there are players who concentrate on tactics and players who concentrate on technique. There are cheesers, and there are people who like to refine one specific style of play. Then you've got those who love to do a little of everything.
Let me give you a few progaming examples. July is a good example of a risky, aggressive player. Flash, on the other hand, is known for his supersafe turtle play. Bisu is a player who can do everything pretty good, a jack-of-all-trades if you like. Then there is Leta who has his perfected wraith-build, and similarily Jaedong with his Mutaling play, but there are also players like Much and Horang2, who can't play the same strategy in a row, ever.
What I want to show you is the fact that July and Jaedong play zerg, that Leta and Flash play terran, and that Much and Bisu play protoss, not because they tossed a threesided coin. They've thought long and hard about it. Apparently, the Zerg loan itself to aggressive and technique heavy play. Terran has the defensive and tactical players. Protoss is the midfielder race, having a little of everything.
I guess you already had an idea about that. Now, isn't it the most obvious conclusion, then, that if you find the protoss easier for you, that your own playstyle fits the protoss better? Sure the zerg are a lot more cooler and you want to be the next SlayerS_BoxeR with terran, but you can't change who you are! Shouldn't you be happy that you've found your place in the starcraft game?
Like I've said, I have no actual Iccup experience to back it up. Its just my gutfeeling that what seems easier for some, might just be more difficult for the other, and vice versa.
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Fuck people who say protoss is easy. I'd agree that for a total newbie they could probably reach C- more easily with P than T but if they can do basic Z all-in type builds it's just as easy.
Playing P isn't an easier race by any means. The mechanics required are generally easier, but at higher levels that doesn't really matter since everyone has amazing mechanics.
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Personally for me TvP is the easiest MU in the game. I tihnk most people think Protoss is easy because most of their basic units don't have any abilities and you cna basically a - move over the opponent. Terran have to use abilities with all their units and that's something a low level player can't do or use properly. My strong point have always been micro so I never had problems with Terran or Zerg. When Terrans get better and use the abilities well it gets hard for Toss as they have to counter micro just as well. It all even out once Terrans and Zerg start to realize how ot use their units. The interface in BW also less of a bitch as you have smaller armies with Toss in general.
Just my thoughts.
ps. It's funny how upset Terrans get if you call their race easy, but they find it commmon sense that tosses shouldn't mind when someone call their race easy..
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On July 17 2009 00:11 Spider-Mine wrote:After you hit C with toss you unlock Terran and Zerg races.
lol awesome
And yeah protoss is kind of the easy race, and would rip shit apart in progaming too, if it wasn't for PvZ.
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yep protoss is generally easier at the lower ranks because generally the micro/macro is easier compared to other races because the other races require more babysitting and using abilities like burrowing, stim, using siege mode. terran requires a little more apm, and this is what most lower level users lack, hence the gap between terran and protoss at low levels.
i'm not saying protoss is easy in general or anything, but i think most people would agree with me when i say if you are a lower rank then protoss is easier to play. at higher levels the game is balanced very well.
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On July 17 2009 06:25 YPang wrote:
...
o.o
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On July 17 2009 00:02 FreeDoM[YA] wrote:
-Many D Terrans don't prepare against shuttles in TvP
-D Zergs often bunch up their units.
- Lots of D Protoss seem to not play PvP very well.
I think you're playing D- people. Whenever I go shuttles, no matter how subtle I am about it, the Terran always has about 20 turrets in his base.
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On July 17 2009 06:25 YPang wrote:
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lol.
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Once you reach C+/B- (two seasons), you'll realize how hard it is to win games off of Terrans (PvZ gets pretty difficult around C actually).
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Yes, Protoss is so easy. I guess that explains why Protoss have their own Bonjwas and why they were so consistently successful until Bisu showed up....oh wait.
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On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %)
I think you are interpreting those numbers wrong lol
ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) = Zerg has only won 47% games over terran. Meaning T > Z with 53% winning rate
ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) = Zerg has a 52.1% win ratio vs protoss. Not the other way around. So P is not >/= Z, more like Z > P
and TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %) is showing that the Protoss has a winning rate of 53% over the Terran.
You may conclude that Destination favors Protoss slightly by those statistics.
However this map only shows the natural way of things: T > Z > P > T
Those map statistics might also contradict the theory that Protoss is the easy race, and "suggest" zerg is the easy race, if you compare the "easy" MU of each race (ZvP, TvZ, PvT), and the "hard"mu (ZvT, TvP, PvZ) percentage.
Often, ZvT seems to be much less difficult than PvZ (hard MU)
while PvT seems to be slightly easier than ZvP (easy MU)
Python
ZvsT 30297 - 28822 (51 %)
ZvsP 41876 - 39003 (51.78 %)
TvsP 38487 - 41387 (48 %)
Zerg has it MUCH easier ZvT than Protoss has it PvZ (hard MUs) - 51% vs 48.22%
Protoss has it only slightly easier PvT than zerg has ZvP (easy MUs) - 52% vs 51.78%
adding the percents:
Z (102.78%)
Protoss (100.22%)
Zodiac
Zerg (107.48%)
Protoss (93.52%)
Outsider
Zerg (105.24%)
Protoss (97.76%)
HeartBreak Ridge
Zerg (108.21%)
Protoss (101.79%)
Gaia
Zerg (103.38%)
Protoss (101.62%)
Neo Medusa
Zerg (104.59%)
Protoss (102.41%)
Gods Garden
Zerg (107.58%)
Protoss (100.42%)
Andromeda
Zerg (107.49%)
Protoss (97.51%)
Tau Cross I am surprised at that one! I thought it would be a Protoss map...
Zerg (107.33%)
Protoss (98.67%)
Some maps protoss came on top:
Luna
Protoss (103.45%)
Zerg (101.55%)
Colosseum
Protoss (103.18%)
Zerg (101.82%)
Longinus Protoss should celebrate when Longinus is MOTW
Protoss (110.22%) OUCH!
Zerg (92.78%)
Blue Storm
Protoss (108.27%)
Zerg (99.73%)
Sorry guys... But, statistically, Zerg is actually slightly easier than Protoss. o_O
And Terran is horribly difficult. *respect for Terran players*
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On July 17 2009 00:18 HuskyTheHusky wrote:how many Protoss do you see making it to the end of the big tournaments these days? ...
The  Last...
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United States10774 Posts
On July 17 2009 06:25 YPang wrote:
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yeah go eat it
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Vatican City State491 Posts
On July 17 2009 09:16 Leath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 04:09 YPang wrote:On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG! i think iccup map stats proves that. Almost all icc map stats P>T, P >/= Z, Z> T. With exception to othello. Desti: ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %) I think you are interpreting those numbers wrong lol ZvT : 25148 - 27802 (47 %) = Zerg has only won 47% games over terran. Meaning T > Z with 53% winning rate ZvP: vs30656 - 28186 (52.1 %) = Zerg has a 52.1% win ratio vs protoss. Not the other way around. So P is not >/= Z, more like Z > P and TvP: vs29152 - 32791 (47 %) is showing that the Protoss has a winning rate of 53% over the Terran. You may conclude that Destination favors Protoss slightly by those statistics. However this map only shows the natural way of things: T > Z > P > T Those map statistics might also contradict the theory that Protoss is the easy race, and "suggest" zerg is the easy race, if you compare the "easy" MU of each race (ZvP, TvZ, PvT), and the "hard"mu (ZvT, TvP, PvZ) percentage. Often, ZvT seems to be much less difficult than PvZ (hard MU) while PvT seems to be slightly easier than ZvP (easy MU) Sorry guys... But, statistically, Zerg is actually slightly easier than Protoss. o_O And Terran is horribly difficult. *respect for Terran players*
These statistics include both A and D players, which means that even the terrible players are included. If the statistcs were divided by ranks, they would give more meaning. Perhaps at A rank there might be imbalances?
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On July 17 2009 10:04 OneOther wrote:yeah go eat it
i already ate my words. and Shitted(Shat it) out... I SPEAK TOO MUCH BULLSHIT.
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United States11637 Posts
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Osaka27140 Posts
That one game obviously proves your point then...
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On July 17 2009 11:19 boesthius wrote:
i played against a Z from norway today in a D+ game, and he was harassing the shit out of me CONSTANTLY with mutas, to the point where i just laid 10 cannons in each base. however, when i rolled out of my main with my mass protoss ball rolled him over because he didn't want to tech to hive and constantly pump mass hydra - he said something along the lines of "gj toss easy, with your 20 apm you pro". not the exact quote, but it made me laugh. sorry you didn't make the correct tech switchover or even attempt to contain me in my natural (which was on destination btw.)
iCCup is basically like USEast if USEast watched VODs. Kind of why I don't play much SC.
00:11:20 raynorgg Chat nicehack
00:11:22 raynorgg Chat mother fucker
00:11:24 LittleBuster Chat 'thanks
00:12:01 raynorgg Chat u hack
00:12:02 raynorgg Chat asshole
00:12:06 LittleBuster Chat yup
00:12:09 raynorgg Chat SHUT UP
00:12:12 raynorgg Chat NERD
00:12:17 LittleBuster Chat
00:14:13 raynorgg Chat motherfucker
00:14:16 raynorgg Chat u will be banned
00:14:19 raynorgg Chat watchout
00:14:43 raynorgg Chat GO TO HELL
00:14:45 raynorgg Chat MOTHER FUCKER
00:14:48 raynorgg Chat WALLHACK
00:14:51 raynorgg Leave Game player quit
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On July 17 2009 06:43 404.Nitrogen wrote:
yep protoss is generally easier at the lower ranks because generally the micro/macro is easier compared to other races because the other races require more babysitting and using abilities like burrowing, stim, using siege mode. terran requires a little more apm, and this is what most lower level users lack, hence the gap between terran and protoss at low levels.
i'm not saying protoss is easy in general or anything, but i think most people would agree with me when i say if you are a lower rank then protoss is easier to play. at higher levels the game is balanced very well.
In my limited experience, Terran lends itself to rapid unit orders, so you naturally click faster while playing. It's only hard to give rapid instruction if you need to do it on different screens, or with high precision.
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On July 17 2009 03:59 Chef wrote:
I'm so sick of these blanket statements 'P is easy at low levels' or 'Terran is strongest at the highest levels' but no one ever backs up their statements. Like it's some accepted common knowledge? Why did you even say it then?! AHHHHRGGG!
It's the truth.
Because it is.
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Protoss is great. I just pound the keyboard with my palms for 15 minutes and I have like a 70% win rate. Some days I don't even turn on my monitor!
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On July 17 2009 03:59 AzureEye wrote:
Last time I checked, P army straight up can't win verse Terran army without storm, zealot drops, stasis, flank, etc.
Right. Just like how a Terran army can't win against a Protoss army without siege mode, spider mines, missle turrets, and positioning.
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On July 17 2009 13:04 koreasilver wrote:
WALLHACK.
ahahaha
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On July 18 2009 09:16 FaTe)SoL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 03:59 AzureEye wrote:Last time I checked, P army straight up can't win verse Terran army without storm, zealot drops, stasis, flank, etc. Right. Just like how a Terran army can't win against a Protoss army without siege mode, spider mines, missle turrets, and positioning.
I think AzureEye has a valid point.
Protoss do have easier mecanics and that helps at lower levels, but the fact is that properly engaging a D level Terran push usually takes more skill than what we D level Protoss have.
It doesnt matter if you are Flash or some random D noob, Tanks still melt Dragoons and mines still melt Zealots. Of course, the better a Terran player is, the better his unit positioning will be, but my points is that as a Protoss, if you dont at least do a decent job engaging the Terran army, even as a D level player, your army will melt, while Terrans can rely on the sheer damage output and resistance of Tanks, Vultures and mines which are a lot more forgiving to poor unit control.
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idgi why does protoss have easier mechanics?
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Well, if you compare Toss to Terran, the latter requires full use of secondary abilities such as mines and sieging to fulfill max potential. They're also somewhat of a double-edged sword - mines and tank splash can kill your own units quite easily if you get too hasty and screw up positioning or something like that. Whereas for Protoss in the same matchup, there are less things to worry about, at least before you engage in battle. Macro aside, your biggest worry is often sweeping mines without running your units into them and avoiding getting lured into fights that you're not ready for yet. Once the battle begins of course, it gets a little bit more difficult as in order to break a well-placed push, you have to time your Zealot wave carefully, while figuring out the best place to drop units and storm, if you can get it off. Most Terran prep comes in between battles - asides from that though, it's not quite that different. Both P and T have to use shift+click after constructing buildings, though it's true that P is a bit more forgiving if you forgot since it's immediately obvious that the probe isn't doing anything.
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