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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:23 TadH wrote: Funny how you yourself now use these terms in the wrong context (according to you) since you started doing the TSL How is that funny? Can you give me examples? I'm trying to guess which one you're reaching for. I know I've said "Protoss player" when I've quickly forgotten a player's ID. I don't think I misuse any of the other ones. | ||
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TadH
Canada1846 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:18 Chill wrote: How is that funny? Can you give me examples? I'm trying to guess which one you're reaching for. I know I've said "Protoss player" when I've quickly forgotten a player's ID. I don't think I misuse any of the other ones. Without specific examples, I can safely say I remember you using the term push (not referring to a tank push). And I meant it's funny; as in ironic. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
If a well known noun on the dictionary is being used as a verb in informal speech. Then the dictionary is outdated, and should be updated to reflect the progress. If a well known noun in mr. Chill's starcraft dictionary is being used as a verb. Then mr. Chill's dictionary is wrong and should be updated to the most current version. The commonly debated word "meta-game" has complete different meaning in different gaming communities. None of them is wrong. Languages evolve, split, merge but never stays the same. When they do, it's declared a dead language. Getting angry because some people use the language different from you is just so superficially silly. | ||
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jellyfish
United States149 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:01 VIB wrote: Duh, this is silly. The language is what the people say. There's no right or wrong in informal speech. That's why dictionaries are updated every few months, or even less now that we have online dictionaries. If a well known noun on the dictionary is being used as a verb in informal speech. Then the dictionary is outdated, and should be updated to reflect the progress. If a well known noun in mr. Chill's starcraft dictionary is being used as a verb. Then mr. Chill's dictionary is wrong and should be updated to the most current version. The commonly debated word "meta-game" has complete different meaning in different gaming communities. None of them is wrong. Languages evolve, split, merge but never stays the same. When they do, it's declared a dead language. Getting angry because some people use the language different from you is just so superficially silly. If you want to use that subjectivity argument, I guess it's alright to say that words mean what people say they mean. But then, isn't it a part of the process for people like Chill to have their say as well, to fight for the older, established meanings? I think it's a little hypocritical to say "none of the various definitions are wrong, except for Chill's." Anyway, I think Chill's problem with misusing these words is that they're being completely sapped of meaning. Why use "push" to mean attack, when "attack" can do the same thing, and "push" means something else entirely? What, then, do you call a tank line leapfrogging, or any other slow and methodical advance of units across the field? It's much, much more efficient to just say "push." It used to be such a clear, powerful word, but now it's some vague generic that hardly means anything at all. Similarly with metagame: it used to mean something quite useful and subtle, but now its just some throwaway word people bandy about to make their posts seem more thoughtful and abstract. Okay, so some of these may have just been out of annoyance, but overall I think it's an important thing to defend the identities of powerful, specific words. If "push" is synonymous with "attack," how are you going to talk about a push in the old sense in a clear, efficient manner? And with metagame: how are you actually going to talk about the metagame, if that entire economy of thought has been lost by laziness and/or ignorance? It's damn impossible. That's why it's important to guard certain words, because without certain words we can't talk about certain things. | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:23 jellyfish wrote: If you want to use that subjectivity argument, I guess it's alright to say that words mean what people say they mean. But then, isn't it a part of the process for people like Chill to have their say as well, to fight for the older, established meanings? I think it's a little hypocritical to say "none of the various definitions are wrong, except for Chill's.". It's not decided by committee or something, words take on meaning organically. He's not saying "words have no meaning just use them however" he's saying that the word doesn't draw meaning from being codified somewhere but from how it's used in speech/writing/whatever. | ||
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jellyfish
United States149 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:19 des wrote: It's not decided by committee or something, words take on meaning organically. He's not saying "words have no meaning just use them however" he's saying that the word doesn't draw meaning from being codified somewhere but from how it's used in speech/writing/whatever. right, but I don't understand why the impulse to create new meanings is organic whereas the impulse to preserve old ones isn't. | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:43 jellyfish wrote: right, but I don't understand why the impulse to create new meanings is organic whereas the impulse to preserve old ones isn't. The point is this thread or any thread like this isn't part of the organic evolution of language, whether it advocates further change, no change, or reversion. If people start using the old meanings or continued using whatever current meanings there are without a thread asking them to that would be organic. This is inorganic not because it calls for preservation but because it is proposing a specific set of meanings. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
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jellyfish
United States149 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:54 des wrote: The point is this thread or any thread like this isn't part of the organic evolution of language, whether it advocates further change, no change, or reversion. If people start using the old meanings or continued using whatever current meanings there are without a thread asking them to that would be organic. This is inorganic not because it calls for preservation but because it is proposing a specific set of meanings. In that case I reject being organic as the sole rubric for acceptable language evolution. People have been writing dictionaries and arguing about definitions since forever, and it hasn't been a negative thing to have both "inorganic" and "organic" forces shape language by the interplay. Also, I don't want to derail any further. I'm done >_< | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:01 VIB wrote: Duh, this is silly. The language is what the people say. There's no right or wrong in informal speech. That's why dictionaries are updated every few months, or even less now that we have online dictionaries. If a well known noun on the dictionary is being used as a verb in informal speech. Then the dictionary is outdated, and should be updated to reflect the progress. If a well known noun in mr. Chill's starcraft dictionary is being used as a verb. Then mr. Chill's dictionary is wrong and should be updated to the most current version. The commonly debated word "meta-game" has complete different meaning in different gaming communities. None of them is wrong. Languages evolve, split, merge but never stays the same. When they do, it's declared a dead language. Getting angry because some people use the language different from you is just so superficially silly. I table plant this hammmmmmmm. Wrong silicon shant lure. | ||
DivinO
United States4796 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:17 Chill wrote: I table plant this hammmmmmmm. Wrong silicon shant lure. Um. I disagree. Respectfully.  | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:01 VIB wrote: Duh, this is silly. The language is what the people say. There's no right or wrong in informal speech. That's why dictionaries are updated every few months, or even less now that we have online dictionaries. If a well known noun on the dictionary is being used as a verb in informal speech. Then the dictionary is outdated, and should be updated to reflect the progress. If a well known noun in mr. Chill's starcraft dictionary is being used as a verb. Then mr. Chill's dictionary is wrong and should be updated to the most current version. The commonly debated word "meta-game" has complete different meaning in different gaming communities. None of them is wrong. Languages evolve, split, merge but never stays the same. When they do, it's declared a dead language. Getting angry because some people use the language different from you is just so superficially silly. I think you're absolutely right. But I would add that it's even sillier when you consider that this isn't a real problem. It's not like people are actually misunderstanding the meaning of "archon/zealot push." The way it's being used is clear enough, a push is a major attack as opposed to harassment. And by the way, I'm under the impression that a siege tank push would be labeled a siege push, or a slow push in the case of something like lurkers. If you're building cannons one after the other in a direction, then there's no reason why you can't call that a cannon push, under the current meaning. That actually makes a bit more sense to me than the original terminology which Chill discussed. I do get what Chill is saying, but a slow push or siege push is more indicative of the concept behind the term in my opinion. | ||
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rkffhk
474 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:17 Chill wrote: I table plant this hammmmmmmm. Wrong silicon shant lure. Cookie jar! To be honest, you could be clearer with what you are trying to convey  | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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Bortlett
United States302 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
Earlier I said that I called the smash commentators idiots or something. I didn't really mean that, or that way. More like that most fighting game commentators just sound like people that randomly walked up and started talking into the microphone. At most small-time tournaments, that's exactly who they are, random (usually people well-known in the community somewhat) who just walk up and start yelling into the mic with no monitor for their voice levels. This is, of course into the lowest quality mic imaginable, and they spend an enormous amount of time not talking about what is actually going on. Husband and Wife's commentary was amazing. The commentary back in the day during MLG in the Melee years was amazing. Just the fact that waffles is seen as the best commentator in smash is somewhat disheartening since he screams obscenities into the mic, yells things you think you would hear out of the host of a rap battle, etc... Just always found it annoying, was stating my opinion. Calling them idiots was wrong. I meant to say they came across as idiotic in how they decided to scream incoherently over the microphone. To summarize, I was wrong to name-call, thanks for pointing it out. I still don't think that their commentating is all that great. Imagine if Debo commentated everything in SC and was regarded as the best commentator by the mostly sub 19 year old community (if SC was like that) and you will know what I'm talking about. It's so hard to adequately get my point across in regards to this. Yes they are funny and entertaining. They also have never made the effort to do anything consistently, up the ante of the production quality at their events, made videos on advice to new players, tried to get new players into the game through weekly/daily shows with lots of information, etc... Melee and Brawl are just as mysterious at the highest level like just almost any game competitively, but Melee and Brawl pros and highest up members of the community are nowhere near the level of professionalism and dedication that I have seen here. Christ we had a long time well-trusted tournament organizer fuck everything up and steal all of the prize money recently. That same man who will never run a tournament, was the only one trying to up the ante, make events bigger, and got the players to come out bigger and better every tournament except his last event. Brawl was featured at MLG but thanks to childish antics and Nintendo staying quiet in regards to allowing it to be streamed, smash has once again fell off the competitive radar just as it was picking up steam and getting interesting. There have been many groups that have come up in the community to try and make it take off, and all of them failed. I'm just saying, that the SC community is pretty freagin awesome, you could have it worse, you could have the less dedicated, less entertaining competitive gaming communities as your home. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
One thing that often irritated me (but doesn't really anymore) was HuskyStarcraft's tendency to use the phrase "simply because" thirty or forty times a game. "We do see that he is making many units." : This one doesn't bother me at all. It does sound like its addressing some unasked question, but the fact is that question is often there, because the observer will often scroll over to their base and the sort of unasked question is "what is the player going to do to react to this". | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
SC2 seems to be filled with timing attacks... I doubt it actually is. People push EVERYWHERE in SC2. I hate it. It's like, Zerg trying to break a Terran's siege line, and the commentator yells, "Here comes the push!" *facepalm* | ||
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