On April 01 2013 23:42 iheartEDM wrote: I use the N word all the time (out of respect, not insult)
Could you explain how this works?
Hopping in here because that's how I'd normally use it as well. Among other things I associate "Nigger" with the badass guy who doesn't take shit from others, is loyal to his buddies, good at sports, eloquent in a more... "dirty/slang"-type of way, wearing a mix of unusual, expensive but still somehow classy clothes.
When it's about voice I think of a deep and slightly rough voice.
The result of using it exclusively in this context is that the people I usually adept the same concepts, associate it with similar positive things and after some moments of confusion the black people in my social circle are suddenly super happy and proud about it. Everyone wins.
Random example where I instantly would say "Wow, now that is a nigger" out of respect and admiration:
How did you arrive at this meaning for 'nigger'? It seems kind of out of left field.
Um. That's a good question.
Culturally I think a lot of it comes from rap/hip-hop and that I draw the association "calls his buddies xyz, I think his buddies are awesome, xyz = good". The connotation I have for the word are just 90% associated with positive things. If it comes to my family (both my grandparents and my mother had their kids at rather young age) I remember mostly post-war stories about GIs walking into brawls and cleaning the whole thing up. Again the "big black (and white) guys from the army" are associated with being badass and awesome.
Socially I find myself setting strong enough frames for such a word that my environment adapts to it. Most people I know would call the guy who says "dumb nigger" a racist asshole and the guy who says "omg did you see that nigger?" completely normal because those people each have completely different connotations. If the frames of the people believing it's a positive thing is stronger than the frames of the people believing it's a negative thing it loses its negative connotations.
Denotation of "Nigger": Black person with certain features. Connotation of "Nigger": What you make of it, either positive or negative.
Does that make more sense?
It sounds to me like you are 'taking back the word' and using it in a more positive light. Other people catch on to this and adapt to your usage. This is essentially what many black people have been doing for years, but I hadn't heart of nonblacks doing it (I assume you are not black).
Pretty much.
I would think that it's a bigger issue over in the US simply because you guys are closer to the issue (time-wise). 30 years ago people tried to avoid using the word "Jew" much much more than today over here. The people affected were the ones making politics (60+). Currently the Americans who actively participated when it comes to giving blacks the same right as whites (~20-30 in the early 70ies) are now 60-70 and still active politically and socially. If I compare how the Germans think about the word "Jew" and the Americans about the word "Nigger" I think it's that one more generation that gives lots and lots of distance.
The blacks over here showed up - mostly - after WW2 with the American troops with no strings or history attached so I imagine it's much easier to have that historical distance.
People who's ancestors were disrespected in the past are somehow more worthy of respect than others, it's a strange concept IMO, especially considering that for whatever reason, the natives in the US and Canada who have lived arguably worse things don't even get half that respect. It's really strange because people's standards are all over the place. People are afraid of the word "nigger" while completely disregarding the horrible state in which the natives were left.
On April 01 2013 09:22 Aukai wrote: I feel like sometimes non-black people are more offended by the word nigger then actual black people.
This so much to quote malcolm in the middle: "It is a dark day indeed when white people get more upset at that word then black people."
Indeed. For example, if I call one of you "white mofo" (I'm white too, see my country), almost no one cares. But if I say N*, lots of people may get crazy. On the other hand, they may because of the word's origin - slavery. Anyways, not much to discuss here.
Edit: I've been talking to a black guy recently, and he has shared with me that most people are afraid of him. I guess the stereotype still works that blacks are dangerous, beefy, etc, so people are scared to say this N word.
Something related to this thread:
1. For one thing, I never lost any relatives to gangs of people calling them "white mofos", so of course it's not the same level of offensive as the N-word. In fact, the worst thing that's ever happened to me as a result of being insulted based on my race (I'm white) is that I felt a little embarassed and out of place for a moment. That's it. For many black people, the story is not the same. Therefore, the level of consideration we should have for people who have to deal with these things should also not be the same.
2. So many people make this out to be fear instead of respect. "Are you afraid to say the word? What - are you chicken? Afraid the big black boogey-man's gonna come beat ya down?" No, of course not. It's a word. It has exactly the power we give it. Were it not for the negative connotations white people gave it with their actions 50 years ago, I'd be fine with you calling your chicken casserole by the N-word if you wanted. But that doesn't mean that in present-day 2013 it's acceptable for you to approach a black man and say "man, I can't wait to go home and eat some N-words tonight!" That doesn't mean you're afraid to use it, it means you're sensible of how it's used.
3. White people ought to be offended by use of the word, too. It represents a failure of our ancestors to display compassion and basic human decency. Not to respect the power of that time in history (by casual use of a word we know to have derogatory and racially motivated origins) is to ensure that we haven't learned our lessons from their failure (and are therefore doomed to repeat it. So many have died as a result of using a simple common word with simple common ignorance that you'd think all people of all races should be taking note of the dangers of referring to groups of people in derogatory tones. You'd be mistaken there, but that's beside the point. Did you know that in Germany it's a crime to deny the holocaust? It wasn't the remaining Jewish people in the country who made that happen - it's the same thing here.
On April 02 2013 00:15 r.Evo wrote: It's accepted now to remove "racist words" out of books like "Huckleberry Finn" or certain German childrens books ("Die kleine Hexe"), the worst possible scenario is that kids 100 years down the line don't even know those words anymore. That's just playing into the hands of everyone who uses them negatively, they won't forget about them for sure if they're still associated with negative things.
I don't necessarily condone changing history to be PC and to include present day taboos, but it wasn't really the specific word itself that allowed people to view african americans as they did. Therefore "taking the word back" doesn't actually change the circumstances for any but those who have been traumatized by it (as they might take some measure of solace that this particular weapon has been disarmed), but it seems to me like more of those who were actually involved in the civil rights movement have been against the re-emergence of the word than have been for it. That aside, we have plenty derogatory terms left and will invent plenty of new ones in the future, I am confident.
We are playing into their hands anyway by not learning the true lesson here - which is that use of derogatory slang towards any groups of people makes it too easy to facilitate seeing people as something other than people, and treat or mistreat them however we like.
I like treehead's point. It's less about fear of using the word and more about not knowing exactly what kind of respect the word deserves.
Most of the time I see the word thrown about like this, I just think of how little appreciation they have about all the history behind the word. Most of the time, at least what I've seen in education, the focus around Black history has always been around the Civil Rights Movement and overcoming the challenges of Black history. But I have rarely seen much about the several hundred years leading up to it.
When people say that they want to "take back the word", they mean they want to try to do so with the utmost respect to the history behind the word. Not that they're afraid of it, but they're afraid of desensitizing society to the word, or watering down the word's meaning, so much so that people just yell it at each other with no regard and no memory of its past, and even with the past in mind, without truly understanding that past.
It's a sad reality that we use words like fag, hag, witch without regard, but nigger has a really strong background, and while going the same root as those words would be nice, it's troubling to see how little society even recognizes the significance of those words, and how little society may recognize the significance of this word in the future.
On April 01 2013 06:28 wei2coolman wrote: A word is a word; it in itself holds no weight or value. Its weight is what is given to the ones who use it, and only implied to those who hear it.
Your dislike of the word "nigger"; is because of how heavy you value the word. Yet, those who use it regularly (especially in African American ghetto culture) put no weight on the word. The issue isn't the word, it's the amount of weight you place on it.
First post and this thread is already over. If a meaning of a word gets you sick to your stomach, you're being oversensitive.
Times have changed, the word "nigger" changed from what it was used for.
I still have yet to understand why people feel so violated when someone attacks you for your race. If you feel violated, then it's the same as you WANT to feel violated.
As for why a Japanese person feeling offended by the n-word is beyond incomprehensible.
On April 01 2013 23:42 iheartEDM wrote: I use the N word all the time (out of respect, not insult)
Could you explain how this works?
Well, it is a cultural thing. Down in the dirty south, in the ATL, there was this cocaine group called the "Black Mafia Family", which were major players in the cocaine game in the USA. Under BMF, rappers like T.I. and Young Jeezy came to fame more or less because they were backed up by the influence of BMF.
Anyways, when I use the N word, it is usually in the context of the same usage from the dirty south, where everyone was black and so the "niggas" were the ones who were the hustlers, the old g's, and in general black people of power.
It can also be like "hes my nigga". That would mean that you are really close to that person and you can trust him to take a bullet for you. In this environment, there were turf wars. People slinging caine usually had body guards and semi-automatic weapons as well so it is important to know which people are "yo niggass" and which ones are "haters".
On April 01 2013 06:28 wei2coolman wrote: A word is a word; it in itself holds no weight or value. Its weight is what is given to the ones who use it, and only implied to those who hear it.
Your dislike of the word "nigger"; is because of how heavy you value the word. Yet, those who use it regularly (especially in African American ghetto culture) put no weight on the word. The issue isn't the word, it's the amount of weight you place on it.
While that is true, doesn't that indeed make it an issue? You could say the exact same thing about the word "faggot" and well, that's all fine and dandy, but if your use of the word is upsetting to some people, what does it actually matter then?
I hope I am not coming across as offensive in any manner, but then again, if I am, what does my intent actually matter, if that's how you perceive it? My point is there
On April 01 2013 06:28 wei2coolman wrote: A word is a word; it in itself holds no weight or value. Its weight is what is given to the ones who use it, and only implied to those who hear it.
Your dislike of the word "nigger"; is because of how heavy you value the word. Yet, those who use it regularly (especially in African American ghetto culture) put no weight on the word. The issue isn't the word, it's the amount of weight you place on it.
While that is true, doesn't that indeed make it an issue? You could say the exact same thing about the word "faggot" and well, that's all fine and dandy, but if your use of the word is upsetting to some people, what does it actually matter then?
I hope I am not coming across as offensive in any manner, but then again, if I am, what does my intent actually matter, if that's how you perceive it? My point is there
Perhaps this is the better angle to take (since respect seems lost on some). Language is nothing if not the expression of personally-held truths.
Why would you use a word that is associated for many with violent and hateful behavior if your intent is to express camaraderie? And this is doubly true in a medium where things like tone and skin color cannot be used to determine context. Even if I (for some quirky reason) refer to my friends as "serial killers" behind closed doors, that shouldn't mean it's appropriate to say, in casual conversation - "Hang on a second, my serial killer just walked in the door." This is not moral reasoning, or even reasoning based on respect, it's preciseness of expression.
When I say, "Hey, this is Chad, he's my N-word." it causes people to wonder if I'm being irreverent, or vulgar, or because I'm just too slow to know that word causes some heartache. When I say "Hey, this is Chad, he's a badass" or "Hey, this is Chad, he's my friend" or "Hey, this is Chad, he's a friend of mine" what I mean is much more clear.
This means that linguistically the word is inferior in its meaning as anything positive.
And hey, if your intent was to be vulgar or irreverent, you could always throw a few f-bombs in there - those still come in loud and clear, and don't trigger memories of lynch mobs (if respect is still a thing we do). I'd suggest: "F*** man, this f***er's name is f***ing Chad. He's my f***ing friend."
On April 01 2013 06:28 wei2coolman wrote: A word is a word; it in itself holds no weight or value. Its weight is what is given to the ones who use it, and only implied to those who hear it.
Your dislike of the word "nigger"; is because of how heavy you value the word. Yet, those who use it regularly (especially in African American ghetto culture) put no weight on the word. The issue isn't the word, it's the amount of weight you place on it.
While that is true, doesn't that indeed make it an issue? You could say the exact same thing about the word "faggot" and well, that's all fine and dandy, but if your use of the word is upsetting to some people, what does it actually matter then?
I hope I am not coming across as offensive in any manner, but then again, if I am, what does my intent actually matter, if that's how you perceive it? My point is there
Well the point haji was talkin about was the strict "usage" of the word "nigger". He cares not for the connotation it means to other; only to how "he" perceives it when used, and how "he" perceives it when he uses it. So that's why I didn't go in any detail in the implication of the word to others; If you want to delve really deep into this stuff. I suggest taking a semiotics philosophy class. Very interesting stuff.
People of color means precisely the same thing as colored people. Why honkies think "people of color" today is respectful as opposed to the derogatory "colored people" of yesteryear is beyond me.
As quick as many people here are to write off a word *because it's just a word*, I think it also needs to be acknowledged that context is quite important when it comes to being offended. If someone is using a term (whether it's "nigger" or something else), and that person is purposely using it with malicious intent, then there may very well be enough justification to being offended by that term (whether it's directed at you or someone else). Being offended (by certain ideas, rhetoric, etc.) doesn't mean you're being overly sensitive or just a big pussy in all cases.
But I do agree that the random construction of six letters should not offend you, if there's no intended bite behind it.
Indeed. It's not the word, but the implied meaning behind the word that gives it power. If I go up to a friend and say 'what's up slut' I'm just being silly (I knew people who did this in high school for example). If my coworker was brought up on charges of prostitution, and is fighting a legal battle even though it's known she didn't commit any crimes, it's extremely rude for me to mutter 'slut' after an argument with her.
EPT
