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It's one of these cultural difference things. For me, the concept of "this word is so bad you must never speak it in your lifetime" is non existant, I just can't comprehend it. There are no such words in my language.
I also find very funny everytime someone refers to "the F word" or "the N word" because when reading it, people in their mind are hearing fuck or nigger, so the word itself is efectively being sent and received in the comunication. If you can not say it then do not, or if you can then do. But these levels of mental-police or social hipocrisy, whatever it is, is something really unheard of here in Spain (and probably in the rest of Europe as well). Took me a while to understand.
I guess that is why I related to Jinro and his "deal with it, I'm Swedish".
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United States24667 Posts
On April 03 2013 06:44 Ender985 wrote:
I also find very funny everytime someone refers to "the F word" or "the N word" because when reading it, people in their mind are hearing fuck or nigger, so the word itself is efectively being sent and received in the comunication. If you can not say it then do not, or if you can then do.
I do not agree. I do not read 'the f word' as 'fuck' in my mind. I read it as 'the f word' although obviously I realize what it is referring to. Sometimes, when referencing what someone else said, it would make sense to refer to 'the f word' in a quote if you are speaking to someone you don't want to actually drop the f bomb to, but want to have the quote right, more or less.
Yea, for some people you can just drop the bomb. For some people you shouldn't even mention it (edit or skip the quote). But for some people, and I think this is a big group, you are stuck in between.
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On April 03 2013 06:56 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 06:44 Ender985 wrote:
I also find very funny everytime someone refers to "the F word" or "the N word" because when reading it, people in their mind are hearing fuck or nigger, so the word itself is efectively being sent and received in the comunication. If you can not say it then do not, or if you can then do. I do not agree. I do not read 'the f word' as 'fuck' in my mind. I read it as 'the f word' although obviously I realize what it is referring to. Sometimes, when referencing what someone else said, it would make sense to refer to 'the f word' in a quote if you are speaking to someone you don't want to actually drop the f bomb to, but want to have the quote right, more or less. Yea, for some people you can just drop the bomb. For some people you shouldn't even mention it (edit or skip the quote). But for some people, and I think this is a big group, you are stuck in between.
what property defines these people in this group? which set is that group a subset of? what similar groups is it big in comparison to? how many of the people who think they belong in this group shouldn't be thinking this?
i don't think it's a "big" group, at least much smaller than people think. at least i don't think it should be a big group, and i think it should be way smaller than it currently is.
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United States24667 Posts
On April 03 2013 07:42 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 06:56 micronesia wrote:On April 03 2013 06:44 Ender985 wrote:
I also find very funny everytime someone refers to "the F word" or "the N word" because when reading it, people in their mind are hearing fuck or nigger, so the word itself is efectively being sent and received in the comunication. If you can not say it then do not, or if you can then do. I do not agree. I do not read 'the f word' as 'fuck' in my mind. I read it as 'the f word' although obviously I realize what it is referring to. Sometimes, when referencing what someone else said, it would make sense to refer to 'the f word' in a quote if you are speaking to someone you don't want to actually drop the f bomb to, but want to have the quote right, more or less. Yea, for some people you can just drop the bomb. For some people you shouldn't even mention it (edit or skip the quote). But for some people, and I think this is a big group, you are stuck in between. what property defines these people in this group? which set is that group a subset of? what similar groups is it big in comparison to? how many of the people who think they belong in this group shouldn't be thinking this? i don't think it's a "big" group, at least much smaller than people think. at least i don't think it should be a big group, and i think it should be way smaller than it currently is.
I'm thinking about it, and I guess you could say the size of this 'group' will vary from person to person. Someone who curses like crazy probably will only hold back when talking to a very small group of people, whereas someone like me who rarely curses verbally will have a lot of people that I don't want to 'fbomb' but don't mind quoting curses to in their edited form.
I just can't agree with the unilateral declaration that you should either curse or drop the topic... that there is no time for partial censoring. I also don't have much respect for people who curse like crazy so that might shed some light on where I'm coming from.
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On April 02 2013 04:58 ComaDose wrote:
Little frightens me more than a group of unopressed people discusing why something is not oppressive to a group of oppressed people.
yup
stupid children think history doesn't mean anything
i'm from the south
racism is a very real thing
that word has a terrible history
it should not be uttered, not in jest, not in "taking it back" (what a load of bullshit), not because of some stupid notion of "gamer culture" (which, if it's a culture that uses that word as part of its identity, is a worthless culture).
only a child thinks "word are just words." words are the realest things there are.
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Sam is here now? Dis gown be gud
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On April 03 2013 10:43 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 04:58 ComaDose wrote:
Little frightens me more than a group of unopressed people discusing why something is not oppressive to a group of oppressed people. yup stupid children think history doesn't mean anything i'm from the south racism is a very real thing that word has a terrible history it should not be uttered, not in jest, not in "taking it back" (what a load of bullshit), not because of some stupid notion of "gamer culture" (which, if it's a culture that uses that word as part of its identity, is a worthless culture). only a child thinks "word are just words." words are the realest things there are.
Oh shit, it's turning into one of "these" conversations again. Yeah, words are important. Well, certain words are. Due to the extremely high volume of words being uttered at any given moment, I would say that approximately only 5% of the distributed lexicons are truly meaningful and special. I wonder how many people around the world are saying the word "nigger" this very second. I wonder how many of those people hate black people. I wonder how many of those people love black people. I wonder how many of those people live in a place where it's a bad word. I wonder how many of those people are live in a place where it's a commonplace word. I wonder how many of those people think that exchanging "er" with "a" magically makes it a different word. I wonder how many of those people are Jay-Z (probably around 1 with a +/- 5 margin of error). I wonder how many of the people who hear it are upset because because of it's history, and how many people don't really give a shit.
When I think about this, I realize different people have different attitudes towards various words. Different people give one word more gravity than another, and people react differently to different phrases than other people do. Why does someone always have to interject and say "SAYING NIGGER IS BAD, DON'T DO IT EVER CUZ 500 YEARS OF SLAVERY"? If you feel so strongly about racial inequality, the best thing you can do is be compassionate towards all people, rather than condescending. There are already plenty of confrontational and aggressive people approaching the subject, so that role is filled to the brim.
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i don't see what any of that has to do with it. you shouldn't say the word
edit: I can't believe anyone would even dispute this. if you use that word, you are an ignorant child with bad manners and you should be chastised for your poor behavior. that's really all there is to it.
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On April 03 2013 10:43 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 04:58 ComaDose wrote:
Little frightens me more than a group of unopressed people discusing why something is not oppressive to a group of oppressed people. yup stupid children think history doesn't mean anything i'm from the south racism is a very real thing that word has a terrible history it should not be uttered, not in jest, not in "taking it back" (what a load of bullshit), not because of some stupid notion of "gamer culture" (which, if it's a culture that uses that word as part of its identity, is a worthless culture). only a child thinks "word are just words." words are the realest things there are.
http://www.awesomeannie.com/2006/12/05/annie-wersching-boston-legal-sister-racists/ - racism.
The other videos linked in this thread using the word "Nigger": Not racism.
A person who says "I believe that we should find solutions to the turkish/black/jewish population in this country undermining everyones work ethics and our moral values" = racist.
A person who says "Damn I love you nigger" = not racist.
Someone who says "You stupid fucking nigger" (in a non racial context) = possibly racist, but most of all utterly retarded.
If you'd like to define it after Albert Memmi (his definition is in the Encyclopædia Universalis among others) racism must include a benefit for the accuser, damage for the accused and its purpose is to justify an act of aggression.
If you'd like to take Stuart Halls position there is no "racism" per se, but only historically specific "racisms". Meaning that certain statements or words are incredibly racist in some specific timeperiods but essentially unbiased if they aren't used for mostly racial discrimination.
The very act of establishing certain conventions for certain groups of people or even things like quotas is much, much more racist than someone who calls a buddy of his "nigger" and expresses that in a positive context. It shouldn't matter whether a person is white, black, brown or purple. It should be about their character as a human being, their rights as a human being and their abilities as a human being.
Stepping in to prevent "racial injustice" is in most cases not about more than glorifying your deed because we as a (dominant white) society love to play the race card. If people would really care about rotting out racist concepts they would step in to prevent a human injustice.
I highly suggest "The Heart Of Whiteness" by Robert Jensen who describes racism as a "Whiteness problem", driven by white people feeling guilty.
Here are some excerpts, he's a tough read for any white person tho imo: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/racearticles.htm
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On April 03 2013 10:47 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Sam is here now? Dis gown be gud
samizmidlyirked
These kinds of discussions (format--independent of content) are generally pretty interesting though. Reading too many can get to be a bit much, but in moderation, it's interesting to read what people think 
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nothing you say matters. i don't care anything about whatever words you want to play with what "racism" is or other sophistic bullshit designed to make you look like you have an educated opinion, when in fact you are just a fool with no manners, if you use that word.
it's not up for discussion.
civilized people have standards about how they behave, and how they show their respect towards things. this is one of those.
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On April 03 2013 14:56 sam!zdat wrote:
i don't see what any of that has to do with it. you shouldn't say the word
edit: I can't believe anyone would even dispute this. if you use that word, you are an ignorant child with bad manners and you should be chastised for your poor behavior. that's really all there is to it.
Did you just do one of these to me?
![[image loading]](http://www.alanhoyle.com/comics/dilbert_bah.png)
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On April 03 2013 16:01 sam!zdat wrote:
nothing you say matters. i don't care anything about whatever words you want to play with what "racism" is or other sophistic bullshit designed to make you look like you have an educated opinion, when in fact you are just a fool with no manners, if you use that word.
it's not up for discussion.
civilized people have standards about how they behave, and how they show their respect towards things. this is one of those.
That sounds similar to people who say "I hate jews/blacks/white people and my point of view is not up to discussion", it's just on the other extreme of the spectrum. Kinda sad to see you in that company.
Edit to clarify: Saying "I hate/dislike word xyz and I don't want you to use it in my presence" is something that is respectable and should be honored if someone wants to maintain a respectful relationship. Saying "You're an idiot/fool/uncivilized for using word xyz" is being utterly ignorant and extremist, the same fallacy you're accusing the other side of.
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no, it's not like that.
there are some things that are so obviously bad manners, that anybody who thinks it is up for discussion is really too much of a smug, self-centered child to be worth reasoning with.
if you think it is okay to use that word, you are an inferior human being because of it, and you should strive to improve yourself on this account.
jesus christ kids. have some class.
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On April 03 2013 16:09 sam!zdat wrote:
no, it's not like that.
there are some things that are so obviously bad manners, that anybody who thinks it is up for discussion is really too much of a smug, self-centered child to be worth reasoning with.
if you think it is okay to use that word, you are an inferior human being because of it, and you should strive to improve yourself on this account.
jesus christ kids. have some class.
You can't see how calling someone an "inferior human being" when trying to advocate not using a, in your opinion, degrading word utterly ruins any point you tried to make?
You don't care about perspectives the scientific community has, you don't care about what black people think, you don't care about what white people think - all you do is call everyone inferior who has a different viewpoint from you.
That's the very core of any -ism. As I said, sad to see you in that company.
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On April 03 2013 16:05 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 16:01 sam!zdat wrote:
nothing you say matters. i don't care anything about whatever words you want to play with what "racism" is or other sophistic bullshit designed to make you look like you have an educated opinion, when in fact you are just a fool with no manners, if you use that word.
it's not up for discussion.
civilized people have standards about how they behave, and how they show their respect towards things. this is one of those. That sounds similar to people who say "I hate jews/blacks/white people and my point of view is not up to discussion", it's just on the other extreme of the spectrum. Kinda sad to see you in that company. Edit to clarify: Saying "I hate/dislike word xyz and I don't want you to use it in my presence" is something that is respectable and should be honored if someone wants to maintain a respectful relationship. Saying "You're an idiot/fool/uncivilized for using word xyz" is being utterly ignorant and extremist, the same fallacy you're accusing the other side of.
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes!
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On April 03 2013 16:19 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 16:05 r.Evo wrote:On April 03 2013 16:01 sam!zdat wrote:
nothing you say matters. i don't care anything about whatever words you want to play with what "racism" is or other sophistic bullshit designed to make you look like you have an educated opinion, when in fact you are just a fool with no manners, if you use that word.
it's not up for discussion.
civilized people have standards about how they behave, and how they show their respect towards things. this is one of those. That sounds similar to people who say "I hate jews/blacks/white people and my point of view is not up to discussion", it's just on the other extreme of the spectrum. Kinda sad to see you in that company. Edit to clarify: Saying "I hate/dislike word xyz and I don't want you to use it in my presence" is something that is respectable and should be honored if someone wants to maintain a respectful relationship. Saying "You're an idiot/fool/uncivilized for using word xyz" is being utterly ignorant and extremist, the same fallacy you're accusing the other side of. Only a Sith speaks in absolutes!
that's a load of fashionable, banal, neo-pagan yuppie bullshit.
On April 03 2013 16:19 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 16:09 sam!zdat wrote:
no, it's not like that.
there are some things that are so obviously bad manners, that anybody who thinks it is up for discussion is really too much of a smug, self-centered child to be worth reasoning with.
if you think it is okay to use that word, you are an inferior human being because of it, and you should strive to improve yourself on this account.
jesus christ kids. have some class. You can't see how calling someone an "inferior human being" when trying to advocate not using a, in your opinion, degrading word utterly ruins any point you tried to make?
no, it doesn't. I am talking about the difference between being a civilized human being and being an ignorant barbarian. this has nothing to do with the kind of hatred embodied in that word. this is about showing respect for things which do not belong to you to treat lightly.
when you utter words of hate, you become hateful. do not utter them.
edit: "tu quoque" is not gonna work for you here, that's just sophomoric
edit: also, can we note how hilarious it is that you think I don't care about science? what a joke. i'm trying to save science from becoming the object of idolatry, which is a terrible thing for everyone involved. i care a great deal about science, in fact I want to give scientists political power so that we can no longer have matters-of-fact like anthropogenic climate change be treated as matters-of-opinion by the colossal clown circus that is mass democratic politics
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On April 03 2013 16:30 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 16:19 r.Evo wrote:On April 03 2013 16:09 sam!zdat wrote:
no, it's not like that.
there are some things that are so obviously bad manners, that anybody who thinks it is up for discussion is really too much of a smug, self-centered child to be worth reasoning with.
if you think it is okay to use that word, you are an inferior human being because of it, and you should strive to improve yourself on this account.
jesus christ kids. have some class. You can't see how calling someone an "inferior human being" when trying to advocate not using a, in your opinion, degrading word utterly ruins any point you tried to make? no, it doesn't. I am talking about the difference between being a civilized human being and being an ignorant barbarian. this has nothing to do with the kind of hatred embodied in that word. this is about showing respect for things which do not belong to you to treat lightly. when you utter words of hate, you become hateful. do not utter them. edit: "tu quoque" is not gonna work for you here, that's just sophomoric edit: also, can we note how hilarious it is that you think I don't care about science? what a joke. i'm trying to save science from becoming the object of idolatry, which is a terrible thing for everyone involved
So when you call me - and millions of other people - "inferior human beings", you're making a point and it has nothing to with the kind of hatred embodied in that word, but if I advocate that a word like "nigger" can be used in a non-racist and positive context I'm an ignorant barbarian who is muttering hateful words?
I don't even.
Edit: In one case you're arguing that denotation = connotation and in the other you're arguing that denotation != connotation. Make up your mind first.
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Words have power and exert force independent of their speakers and dependent on their audience. You cannot control what people take from the words they hear; you can only control your own speech. If you believe that your words may hurt someone, and your intention is not to hurt them, then exercise higher judgment, and take the five seconds it requires to pick a different word so that they are not hurt. This is simply being a considerate, respectful human being.
If you still wish to use potentially hurtful words, then go ahead. Just don't be surprised when someone calls you out for it.
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On April 03 2013 16:30 sam!zdat wrote:
that's a load of fashionable, banal, neo-pagan yuppie bullshit.
It's a load of unitarianist, drab, conceptionalist, neo-zoroastrianist hog-wash.
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EPT
