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lol I'm a closet supremacist
edit: the point is, you can copy paste whatever 'theory' you want about words and stuff
when kids use the word nigger as a way to express their rage in video game culture, it's barbaric behavior and they should have been raised better.
if I were black, I don't think I would want my kids using the word. But who can say? And that's not my fight.
I'm just concerned about privileged white kids who have been told that the word is being 'reclaimed' and that this gives them a pseudo philosophical excuse to use it. I think that's a load of crap
is anyone who thinks it's okay to use actually from the american south? Curious
edit: do you guys understand it's my own culture I'm calling barbaric? I'm a white southerner. When my grandfather said nigger, he meant it. I feel the same way about white people using the word nigger as germans feels about swastikas.
edit: am I wrong that your entire purpose for arguing this is to justify to yourself your own use of the word as an epithet, ala orb?
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On April 08 2013 02:43 sam!zdat wrote:
nigger
Please don't use that word, it's offensive. 
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this is precisely not the point that I am making
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On April 08 2013 05:37 sam!zdat wrote:
this is precisely not the point that I am making
You are not allowed to use that word, end of discussion. People who use it are barbarians, etc etc.
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you know very well what I mean, child
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^Hey I'm pretty sure you could be more condescending by saying 'foolish child'
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I do feel condescending towrads apologists of hateful language. Why shouldn't I?
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On April 08 2013 02:43 sam!zdat wrote:
lol I'm a closet supremacist
edit: the point is, you can copy paste whatever 'theory' you want about words and stuff
when kids use the word nigger as a way to express their rage in video game culture, it's barbaric behavior and they should have been raised better.
if I were black, I don't think I would want my kids using the word. But who can say? And that's not my fight.
I'm just concerned about privileged white kids who have been told that the word is being 'reclaimed' and that this gives them a pseudo philosophical excuse to use it. I think that's a load of crap
is anyone who thinks it's okay to use actually from the american south? Curious
edit: do you guys understand it's my own culture I'm calling barbaric? I'm a white southerner. When my grandfather said nigger, he meant it. I feel the same way about white people using the word nigger as germans feels about swastikas.
edit: am I wrong that your entire purpose for arguing this is to justify to yourself your own use of the word as an epithet, ala orb?
i agree with kids using nigger to express rage being barbaric. maybe i wouldn't say barbaric, since i have mostly seen it used through asterix and obelix, but i don't think it's malplaced.
from my perspective it's a context where i don't think the usage would do any good. i am having troubles putting into words what it's not doing good towards here though. also leaving open the possibility that there are different context where usage would not be bad.
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Ultimately, I think that if you are not part of the group that was oppressed by a certain word, you shouldn't be allowed to "reclaim" that word for that group, especially if your reasons for reclaiming that word are weak (e.g. I want to be able to freely insult people with it without people taking offense!). I mean, I'm not well-read (or read at all) on cultural reappropriation, but it does feel as if most people who argue for the use of racist slurs just want to use them as insults free from any racist connotations. "We want to desensitize people to them through exposure!" they say. But that will almost always fail, and if you look at the words that have been historically reclaimed to some extent (e.g. dyke, queer, nerd, gay, geek), they've been reclaimed by peoples within that group, not those outside of it. The change comes from pride in an identity, a pride that cannot be forced onto them by those outside.
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I'm not really a proponent of "reclaiming" words, and I recognize that there are words that have powerful implications, good and bad, but I am opposed to censorship in all forms, especially when it comes to the enforcement of 'morality'.
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edit: do you guys understand it's my own culture I'm calling barbaric? I'm a white southerner. When my grandfather said nigger, he meant it. I feel the same way about white people using the word nigger as germans feels about swastikas.
edit: am I wrong that your entire purpose for arguing this is to justify to yourself your own use of the word as an epithet, ala orb?
Sam, no one except you was talking about using it as an insult. I gladly agree with you that using it as an insult is despicable.
That aside, here's the issue that I'm struggling to explain to you:
By insisting that your (negative) connotation is the only acceptable one you are doing the exact same thing your grandfather did. You are insisting that what he meant as an insult has to stay an insult. Why? Because some utterly racist people said so.
What you're doing with this is putting your grandfather (or my grand-aunt =P) on the same level of "stupid racist barbarians" as a black rapper who is talking about his Niggers from the streets (positive context) or anyone else who tries to establish a positive connotation.
Words change. Connotations change according to historic context. By insisting that the connotation stays the same even though the context has changed you're helping those with a real racist motivation to get their point across. Instead of forsaking it you could choose to use it positively instead and make those who use it as an insult look utterly stupid.
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One man's barbarism is another man's civilized culture. Civilization is an opinion constructed by the social contract of the group one belongs. The Romans thought they were the height of culture. So did the Huns. As did the Egyptians. And the Sumerians. And the Babylonians. And the Ming Chinese. There are differences, and "improvement" is usually a vague issue as well.
What I seem to be seeing now is an argument over etiquette. If you are not well mannered, you are in ill mannered lout. Something like that anyways.
Please note that the South does not hold a stranglehold on racism. The North is in many ways as racist, before and after the Civil War, and to this day.
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remember, however, that it is an achievement of culture to realize that "every document of culture is a monument to barbarism"
edit: a last thought about it. i mean, I listen to hip hop. i recognize a certain poetry in the use of "nigga" and there's some very rich expressions, e.g. "nigga please" is a great phrase. but i'm very conflicted about this (and it's separate from the usage by white people, which I find totally unacceptable). i'm also concerned about the cooptation of black culture by the white-dominated culture industry, and white kids thinking that because everyone can say "nigga" and it's not racist, that means that somehow the race problems in american society have been solved, when actually blacks are systematically denied economic and education opportunities (and the apotheosis of a few blacks into the culture industry doesn't exactly fix anything). and I think to some extent the enthusiasm of whites to go along with the whole "reappropriation" thing is a sort of ideological shield to mask the fact that white society really does still think of "niggaz" as "niggers." only now they entertain us on television and that makes it all okay, because everybody's laughing.
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On April 10 2013 06:33 sam!zdat wrote:
remember, however, that it is an achievement of culture to realize that "every document of culture is a monument to barbarism"
edit: a last thought about it. i mean, I listen to hip hop. i recognize a certain poetry in the use of "nigga" and there's some very rich expressions, e.g. "nigga please" is a great phrase. but i'm very conflicted about this (and it's separate from the usage by white people, which I find totally unacceptable). i'm also concerned about the cooptation of black culture by the white-dominated culture industry, and white kids thinking that because everyone can say "nigga" and it's not racist, that means that somehow the race problems in american society have been solved, when actually blacks are systematically denied economic and education opportunities (and the apotheosis of a few blacks into the culture industry doesn't exactly fix anything). and I think to some extent the enthusiasm of whites to go along with the whole "reappropriation" thing is a sort of ideological shield to mask the fact that white society really does still think of "niggaz" as "niggers." only now they entertain us on television and that makes it all okay, because everybody's laughing.
You're not alone with regard to confliction regarding the use of the word by others.
Remember, barbarism is a societal opinion. What is barbaric to you could be a treasured part of another culture that may have social structures, constructed works, and use technology as complex as any other. The point I was making was largely specific to your closed minded view of any discussion of the topic. While in most ways I tend to agree with you regarding the subject matter, such authoritative dismissal of any discussion of a subject reads poorly.
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On April 10 2013 12:56 felisconcolori wrote:
What is barbaric to you could be a treasured part of another culture that may have social structures, constructed works, and use technology as complex as any other.
then one of us would be wrong
The point I was making was largely specific to your closed minded view of any discussion of the topic. While in most ways I tend to agree with you regarding the subject matter, such authoritative dismissal of any discussion of a subject reads poorly.
sometimes I think you just have to make abitrary pronouncements on things
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On April 10 2013 13:00 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 12:56 felisconcolori wrote:
What is barbaric to you could be a treasured part of another culture that may have social structures, constructed works, and use technology as complex as any other.
then one of us would be wrong
That's a matter of perception. There's no definitive, objective right or wrong associated with it. There is not a mathematical or empirical method of determining exactly what civilization is from a non-subjective standpoint. How can you accurately and objectively establish what is a better civilization?
Show nested quote +
The point I was making was largely specific to your closed minded view of any discussion of the topic. While in most ways I tend to agree with you regarding the subject matter, such authoritative dismissal of any discussion of a subject reads poorly.
sometimes I think you just have to make abitrary pronouncements on things
What makes you say that? Although I will admit that I'm quite capable of discussing any issue from any side without much in the way of emotional investment. I do not seek to "win", to "prove I'm right" or "more intelligent" or "better read", etc. I seek to increase discourse, to provoke thought and hopefully learn more about the thought process in use. Your responses of late in this particular thread have been generally geared towards pronouncing that you're opinion is the right one, anyone with a different opinion is a lesser human being, and generally worthy of your scorn (implied via diminutive phrasings and bestowed nicknames generally used to reinforce your superior knowledge or standing).
As far as pronouncements, I use declaratory sentences attempting to keep them as succinct as possible. Would you prefer I ended all of my statements with a question mark or a disclaimer similar to Dennis Miller's favorite - "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, with the caveat that I imagine I'm probably right when it comes to strictly factual statements such as "1 + 1 = 2 in basic algebra". But if I am, I welcome constructive discussion.
+ Show Spoiler + Except in Live Report threads.
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On April 10 2013 14:01 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 13:00 sam!zdat wrote:On April 10 2013 12:56 felisconcolori wrote:
What is barbaric to you could be a treasured part of another culture that may have social structures, constructed works, and use technology as complex as any other.
then one of us would be wrong That's a matter of perception. There's no definitive, objective right or wrong associated with it. There is not a mathematical or empirical method of determining exactly what civilization is from a non-subjective standpoint. How can you accurately and objectively establish what is a better civilization?
what's your beef with subjectivity
Show nested quote +
The point I was making was largely specific to your closed minded view of any discussion of the topic. While in most ways I tend to agree with you regarding the subject matter, such authoritative dismissal of any discussion of a subject reads poorly.
sometimes I think you just have to make abitrary pronouncements on things What makes you say that? Although I will admit that I'm quite capable of discussing any issue from any side without much in the way of emotional investment. I do not seek to "win", to "prove I'm right" or "more intelligent" or "better read", etc. I seek to increase discourse, to provoke thought and hopefully learn more about the thought process in use. Your responses of late in this particular thread have been generally geared towards pronouncing that you're opinion is the right one, anyone with a different opinion is a lesser human being, and generally worthy of your scorn (implied via diminutive phrasings and bestowed nicknames generally used to reinforce your superior knowledge or standing). As far as pronouncements, I use declaratory sentences attempting to keep them as succinct as possible. Would you prefer I ended all of my statements with a question mark or a disclaimer similar to Dennis Miller's favorite - "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, with the caveat that I imagine I'm probably right when it comes to strictly factual statements such as "1 + 1 = 2 in basic algebra". But if I am, I welcome constructive discussion. + Show Spoiler + Except in Live Report threads.
because i think some things are not a matter of discussion. you kinda just have to set norms. because of what you say above (that it's not really possible to derive social norms from first principles - they're not objective, they're intersubjective, so sometimes the appropriate response to a question takes the form of a demand).
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Well, one thing at least is for certain.
Sam would be stoned to death if he talked about "barbaric" or "civilized" behaviors in front of any real anthropologist or linguist. 
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i'll step into the ring on that one 
edit: or i suppose I should say, let he who is without sin...
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EPT
