EPTOn April 01 2013 08:15 Waxangel wrote:
On that note
+ Show Spoiler +
Mjfc8AuVTys
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
On that note + Show Spoiler + | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Come back with a response after you've taken a course in semiotics plox. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
As I have said on this forum before a couple of times, the word nigger still stands apart from every single other word in the language as its existence was solely created to bring down the status of Black people. No other word - pardon my language - Jew, faggot, fuck, or whatever else you can think of has this kind of negative history attached to it; there is always something more to the word, or it was twisted to mean something else and that stuck over time. Not nigger. I dislike people using the word because people who do use it really don't understand the gravity of the word. They seem to throw it about with excuses such as, "a word only has as much power as you give it." Well, yes, that's how words work, and I'm not saying that we should give the word this sacred power. In fact, you are seeing now that Black people are trying to "reclaim" this word as their own. It's happening a lot in the last couple decades, and I like to see that. But a couple decades doesn't really erase the 400 even 500 plus years that the word has actually been used to put down Black people. So that's the gravity of that situation. And my issue here is that all these people who say, "you're pathetic for being held back by the word", or "words only have so much power", or "it's the same as fuck, shit, or other swear words", is that really a very small percentage of the people who say that actually think, or have thought, or have read, or have studied the history of Black people and how everything actually ended up being like this. In other words, while they have respect for all that has happened with say, Martin Luther King Jr., that respect only extends so deep because society has forced these "February is Black History Month" events, or forced these "Rosa Parks is a hero" stories on people. Not to say that they're not important, but I find it unbelievable that this has actually conveyed how immense Black history actually is. I guess martyrs are easy to get behind. So the word is losing its power, and that is great. But we seem to so easily overlook, and few of us have even attempted to truly look into Black history. You shouldn't grimace at the sound of the word and attack people who say it out of hand. You should try to understand yourself why you hate this word. Read up on Black history like you would for an English class. When someone says it in public, try to understand their view of the word and how they come about that view, but try to convey to them what this word means to Black history, and get them to think about it. If they don't, they don't, and that's a nice side of ignorance. But if they do, you can understand it too from their perspectives. I'm against the idea of being afraid of a word, being scared of it being thrown about like that. But I'm more against the idea of using a word without truly understanding where it came from. + Show Spoiler + I won't use it myself because it simply sounds horrible, and I can't think of any situation where I would want to say it. Mind you, nigger is a bit different than nigguh, but I really am opposed to either for the same reason. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
When used by a non-member of that group, it has historically been extremely insulting and a tool to oppress that group, to deem them as subhuman or label them as "other" in a derogatory fashion. Dehumanizing. More modern usage seems to be attempting to break that long association - but few if any other words have such an extreme weight to break free of. As a gentleman of rather pale skin tone, I would not use the word myself unless it is absolutely necessary - such as Hajji's example of a direct quotation, or if I were performing and the lyrics or lines required it. (Karaoke of some raps, period theater or cinematic pieces.) Largely, out of respect for all of the people who were forcibly subjugated under its usage - although it's also out of respect for other people with whom I may be conversing. People are right when they say "Words only have the power given to them by people" but they are wrong to assume that means the power that the individual speaking gives them. The power is given instead by the people hearing that word - I could walk out into the forest, away from other people, and shout offensive words until my voice gave out. And it has no meaning. But if I were to walk out side my apartment and do the same, the meaning would be different for each person hearing that word, as they assign the power to the word as they hear it and interpret it. (Shouting the word in question, where I live, would not only be incredibly bad taste but bear a degree of risk.) Because to some people, it would be impolite and to others it is a grave insult upon the dignity of their character. My mixed feelings on the word stem from how its usage is either lauded or condemned depending on who is saying it, regardless of any context. It can win Emmys or cause a person to be shunned, depending on the person saying it, even if the context of the statements are the same. But that may be a failing of people in general, in that it applies to other words and ties back into the power of the word as heard by the listener... I can empathize to a minor extent, but it is still not a word I will use for my own thoughts. Simply using it can be taken to imply a great deal of meaning, and cause unnecessary misunderstanding. Erring on the side of avoiding it makes communication generally less stressful. And there is likely no other word in English which can instantly turn a normal conversation into physical confrontation when used carelessly. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On April 01 2013 10:47 eSen1a wrote: LMAO at the responses in this thread edit: contributing (actually a good song tho) nice! was hoping this was here so i didn't have to search it up so i could listen to it. cheers! | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
Classic song. You are now about to witness the power of street knowledge. | ||
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
BEST ! | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 01 2013 06:28 wei2coolman wrote: A word is a word; it in itself holds no weight or value. Its weight is what is given to the ones who use it, and only implied to those who hear it. Your dislike of the word "nigger"; is because of how heavy you value the word. Yet, those who use it regularly (especially in African American ghetto culture) put no weight on the word. The issue isn't the word, it's the amount of weight you place on it. The best post in this thread so far imho. Thus said, I think the whole N word anxiety is over the roof. Sure, don't say the word, but some people pay toooooo much attention to this word. Maybe inflated value is clearer to say? | ||
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FromShouri
United States862 Posts
On April 01 2013 09:22 Aukai wrote: I feel like sometimes non-black people are more offended by the word nigger then actual black people. This so much to quote malcolm in the middle: "It is a dark day indeed when white people get more upset at that word then black people." | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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ihOpe
192 Posts
I have been called the N word occasionally on ladder, as an attempted flaming insult by the other guy I saw django unchained I respect black people. | ||
micronesia
United States24795 Posts
On April 01 2013 23:42 iheartEDM wrote: I use the N word all the time (out of respect, not insult) Could you explain how this works? | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
Hopping in here because that's how I'd normally use it as well. Among other things I associate "Nigger" with the badass guy who doesn't take shit from others, is loyal to his buddies, good at sports, eloquent in a more... "dirty/slang"-type of way, wearing a mix of unusual, expensive but still somehow classy clothes. When it's about voice I think of a deep and slightly rough voice. The result of using it exclusively in this context is that the people I usually adept the same concepts, associate it with similar positive things and after some moments of confusion the black people in my social circle are suddenly super happy and proud about it. Everyone wins. Random example where I instantly would say "Wow, now that is a nigger" out of respect and admiration: | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
Of course you shouldn't say things which would put you in a situation of knowingly offending people. You can - it's not as though anyone will cut out your tongue for it - but you shouldn't. But the fact that this boils down to a statement of appropriate terminology to be used, and not of the underlying discussion of what that terminology says about our culture, is disappointing. | ||
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micronesia
United States24795 Posts
On April 01 2013 23:54 r.Evo wrote: Hopping in here because that's how I'd normally use it as well. Among other things I associate "Nigger" with the badass guy who doesn't take shit from others, is loyal to his buddies, good at sports, eloquent in a more... "dirty/slang"-type of way, wearing a mix of unusual, expensive but still somehow classy clothes. When it's about voice I think of a deep and slightly rough voice. The result of using it exclusively in this context is that the people I usually adept the same concepts, associate it with similar positive things and after some moments of confusion the black people in my social circle are suddenly super happy and proud about it. Everyone wins. Random example where I instantly would say "Wow, now that is a nigger" out of respect and admiration: How did you arrive at this meaning for 'nigger'? It seems kind of out of left field. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 01 2013 23:54 r.Evo wrote: Everyone wins. Except the group of people who were alive to see the world pre-1970, when the word was used by lynch mobs, when the KKK used the word to demonize them, and when the word itself had such power that it dispossessed any human being to which the word applied from any sort of power or freedom or right they might otherwise have had. Other than all the people still alive who are traumatized by the experiences associated with that word, you're right - everybody wins. But if you ever encounter someone who doesn't win - congratulations on reminding them that despite all they've gone through, despite whatever they may have lost during the civil rights movements to the intolerance and hatred that was facilitated by those six letters, that they still aren't worth enough consideration to just use a different word (hint: there are several which aren't racially dicey, pick one). | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On April 02 2013 00:03 micronesia wrote: How did you arrive at this meaning for 'nigger'? It seems kind of out of left field. Um. That's a good question. Culturally I think a lot of it comes from rap/hip-hop and that I draw the association "calls his buddies xyz, I think his buddies are awesome, xyz = good". The connotation I have for the word are just 90% associated with positive things. If it comes to my family (both my grandparents and my mother had their kids at rather young age) I remember mostly post-war stories about GIs walking into brawls and cleaning the whole thing up. Again the "big black (and white) guys from the army" are associated with being badass and awesome. Socially I find myself setting strong enough frames for such a word that my environment adapts to it. Most people I know would call the guy who says "dumb nigger" a racist asshole and the guy who says "omg did you see that nigger?" completely normal because those people each have completely different connotations. If the frames of the people believing it's a positive thing is stronger than the frames of the people believing it's a negative thing it loses its negative connotations. Denotation of "Nigger": Black person with certain features. Connotation of "Nigger": What you make of it, either positive or negative. Does that make more sense? Edit: On April 02 2013 00:06 Treehead wrote: Except the group of people who were alive to see the world pre-1970, when the word was used by lynch mobs, when the KKK used the word to demonize them, and when the word itself had such power that it dispossessed any human being to which the word applied from any sort of power or freedom or right they might otherwise have had. Other than all the people still alive who are traumatized by the experiences associated with that word, you're right - everybody wins. But if you ever encounter someone who doesn't win - congratulations on reminding them that despite all they've gone through, despite whatever they may have lost during the civil rights movements to the intolerance and hatred that was facilitated by those six letters, that they still aren't worth enough consideration to just use a different word (hint: there are several which aren't racially dicey, pick one). Very good point. To me this boils down to respect, common sense and most of all context. I don't run around and call women "sluts" just because it has a positive association to me and my girlfriend in the bedroom. I wouldn't call a 50 year old black person "badass nigger" or tell a survivor of the holocaust to "stop being jewish" when he tries to save money somewhere. On a similar level I don't run around calling other TL users "niggers" because I'm aware that the majority most likely has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean I support that point of view when the discussion comes up. For me it boils down that just because older generations fucked up and did things beyond comparison there is no reason for future generations to not be more clever about it and change those meanings. Forcing people to not use certain words which have a historically negative connotation gives people who do use them the power to frame them at will, as negative as they want to. If I think three generations down the line there are two possibilities. My great grand children could not use the word "Nigger" (being aware of the historical context), then the kids from a racist family can come along and teach them how horrible those Niggers are and frame it their way because that's how they use it on a daily basis. The other possibility is that they are aware of the historical context and have new positive connotations with it. Suddenly there's no wind in the racist sails anymore. It's accepted now to remove "racist words" out of books like "Huckleberry Finn" or certain German childrens books ("Die kleine Hexe"), the worst possible scenario is that kids 100 years down the line don't even know those words anymore. That's just playing into the hands of everyone who uses them negatively, they won't forget about them for sure if they're still associated with negative things. | ||
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micronesia
United States24795 Posts
On April 02 2013 00:15 r.Evo wrote: Um. That's a good question. Culturally I think a lot of it comes from rap/hip-hop and that I draw the association "calls his buddies xyz, I think his buddies are awesome, xyz = good". The connotation I have for the word are just 90% associated with positive things. If it comes to my family (both my grandparents and my mother had their kids at rather young age) I remember mostly post-war stories about GIs walking into brawls and cleaning the whole thing up. Again the "big black (and white) guys from the army" are associated with being badass and awesome. Socially I find myself setting strong enough frames for such a word that my environment adapts to it. Most people I know would call the guy who says "dumb nigger" a racist asshole and the guy who says "omg did you see that nigger?" completely normal because those people each have completely different connotations. If the frames of the people believing it's a positive thing is stronger than the frames of the people believing it's a negative thing it loses its negative connotations. Denotation of "Nigger": Black person with certain features. Connotation of "Nigger": What you make of it, either positive or negative. Does that make more sense? It sounds to me like you are 'taking back the word' and using it in a more positive light. Other people catch on to this and adapt to your usage. This is essentially what many black people have been doing for years, but I hadn't heart of nonblacks doing it (I assume you are not black). | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 01 2013 22:40 FromShouri wrote: This so much to quote malcolm in the middle: "It is a dark day indeed when white people get more upset at that word then black people." Indeed. For example, if I call one of you "white mofo" (I'm white too, see my country), almost no one cares. But if I say N*, lots of people may get crazy. On the other hand, they may because of the word's origin - slavery. Anyways, not much to discuss here. Edit: I've been talking to a black guy recently, and he has shared with me that most people are afraid of him. I guess the stereotype still works that blacks are dangerous, beefy, etc, so people are scared to say this N word. Something related to this thread: | ||
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