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I don't have a clear idea why I'm writing this.
I just felt a nudge that I am to talk with someone from TL. That I may be able to help someone in something.
Just a quick elaboration.
I'm a guy who's his whole life been into studying stuff dealing with religion, spirituality and different practices that are aiming to relieve suffering and living a carefree, relaxed and easy-going life.
I have made progress in my life which was filled with suffering at points, and my feeling is that I am soon going to help other people. I have the urge to help, but I don't have 'proof' that I can do so, so I'm reluctant to put myself out there and 'market' myself in any way, even if it's just offering help to friends who may be in need.
But if anyone here feels like they want me to Skype with them, I would be willing to do so. No charge of any sort. And I have no idea if I'll help you in any way 
I may not even talk much. I may also tell you to talk less and be in silence with me if I feel like it, or I may talk more and you listen more.
Dunno, let's see what this is.
- Ivan
(my real name)
I guess PM me if you're interested, or comment if you feel like doing that.
 
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Why is (our everyday) suffering to be relieved? Why desire a carefree life to begin with? Why is a relaxed and easy-going life better than one scarred by a great deal of suffering?
One must imagine a Beethoven, Mozart, a van Gogh, Nietzsche, Goethe, Verdi, Dostoyevsky.. the list goes on and on - one must imagine how those guys would have ended up, if they had spent their lives trying to alleviate their suffering or in fact have had no suffering at all.
"The discipline of suffering, of great suffering - do you not know that it is this discipline alone that has produced all the elevations of humanity so far?" - Nietzsche, BGE, Ch. 7
So the following should not come as a surprise:
"To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures. " - Nietzsche, WTP 481
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Because ultimately the purpose of your, and everyone's life, is to experience joy, true happieness, fullfilment and just be thrilled with life as much as possible, it's what life is about as I look at it these days. Every action you do is somehow motivated by attaining happieness, or at least experiencing relief at first.
When I talk about relieving suffering, I don't mean it in a way like if you get shot, and then you stuff yourself with painkillers and turn yourself into a plant. I talk about realizing that you're the one kicking yourself, or shooting yourself repeatedly, and then realizing you can stop doing that, and simply do what you want, do stuff you wanna see done, do great things, great songs, great movies, great poetry. Kinda like in Minecraft, just build stuff you wanna see built [i don't play minecraft, I've only seen some videos, I hope example of freedom, and joy-oriented living is accurate]
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I would expand Nietzsche's point by adding that it's not suffering that produced the elevations, it's the decision to end suffering that does it. If you fell in love with your suffering, nothing would change.
Suffering will always appear as you experience life, only you will need to taste it in smaller and smaller dosages to see what you need to do. Ultimately it becomes feeling slightly annoyed, bored, irked (unlike manic depression, anxiety attacks etc which are extremely uncomfortable) and you choose to move into a positive direction and make an elevation.
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Because ultimately the purpose of your, and everyone's life, is to experience joy, true happieness, fullfilment and just be thrilled with life as much as possible, it's what life is about as I look at it these days. What arguments do you have for that conception of a good life? Most philosophers disagree that the way one feels has much if any impact on how good one's life goes (source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/happiness/#DouAboValHap ) and I'm with them.
Look, I realize that you're trying to do something good by offering advice and helping people who are in need and that is something I endorse. I just think there is great value in thinking critically about our fundamental assumptions that we take for granted and then base things like our conceptions of happiness on those assumptions, sometimes to our benefit, but sometimes to our detriment.
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On February 05 2013 22:29 Sauwelios wrote:
Why is (our everyday) suffering to be relieved? Why desire a carefree life to begin with? Why is a relaxed and easy-going life better than one scarred by a great deal of suffering?
One must imagine a Beethoven, Mozart, a van Gogh, Nietzsche, Goethe, Verdi, Dostoyevsky.. the list goes on and on - one must imagine how those guys would have ended up, if they had spent their lives trying to alleviate their suffering or in fact have had no suffering at all.
"The discipline of suffering, of great suffering - do you not know that it is this discipline alone that has produced all the elevations of humanity so far?" - Nietzsche, BGE, Ch. 7
So the following should not come as a surprise:
"To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures. " - Nietzsche, WTP 481
because for every genius that is born out of this suffering there are thousands if not millions of people who suffer without the possibility to "elevate humanity" in a way that goethe etc did. is it worth it?
also, are you saying that you cant contribute to humanity or be "worth" anything as a person unless you are/know suffering? that sounds kinda ridiculous to me but hey to each his own world view.
do whatever makes you happy. if suffering makes you happy, then by all means suffer and hope you become the next nietzsche. good luck with that.
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On February 05 2013 22:56 Sauwelios wrote:Show nested quote +Because ultimately the purpose of your, and everyone's life, is to experience joy, true happieness, fullfilment and just be thrilled with life as much as possible, it's what life is about as I look at it these days. What arguments do you have for that conception of a good life? Most philosophers disagree that the way one feels has much if any impact on how good one's life goes (source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/happiness/#DouAboValHap ) and I'm with them. Look, I realize that you're trying to do something good by offering advice and helping people who are in need and that is something I endorse. I just think there is great value in thinking critically about our fundamental assumptions that we take for granted and then base things like our conceptions of happiness on those assumptions, sometimes to our benefit, but sometimes to our detriment.
Because your emotions are your only real feedback, and the only thing you are wise to care about. And yes, that means that you will care about other people, because it will eventually TRULY feel bad (if it doesn't already ) to not do it, if you go along this path.
All paths lead to Rome. Do you disagree that everything you do is motivated by eventually experiencing positive emotions (or a relief from negative ones)?
Is there a 'good way' a life can go that's not direcly related to how good you feel? Give me an example of how a life can go good, while you feel miserable.
(I will probably read that whole text later, just to see people's opinions, but from what I've read a little just now, I see their arguments as just misunderstandings and semantics, and don't feel like this theory is 'rocked'.)
I am glad you are posting challenging things, I actually wished for something like that these days, to challenge my beliefs. I didn't make a plan to help anyone, I just felt like doing it in the spur of the moment, so it's not like you're ruining something. When you're challenged, you grow. (but you don't have to suffer :p )
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On February 05 2013 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I may not even talk much. I may also tell you to talk less and be in silence with me if I feel like it.
That is fucking creeeeepy.
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because for every genius that is born out of this suffering there are thousands if not millions of people who suffer without the possibility to "elevate humanity" in a way that goethe etc did. is it worth it?
The examples I gave were extremes, the point is the same: Suffering is not an intrinsically bad thing.
also, are you saying that you cant contribute to humanity or be "worth" anything as a person unless you are/know suffering? that sounds kinda ridiculous to me but hey to each his own world view. That is not what I'm saying because then I'd be affirming the consequent (if x (suffering) then y (great contribution); y is the case, so x? Clearly not!)
do whatever makes you happy. That's exactly the type of mantra I'm questioning.
Do you disagree that everything you do is motivated by eventually experiencing positive emotions (or a relief from negative ones)? Yes I strongly disagree with that. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if there is any position in philosophy that has been thoroughly refuted then it is exactly the following: Pleasure (or self-interest) is the only motivating principle guiding our actions and everything else is a means to pleasure (or self-interest; they're called psychological hedonism and psychological egoism respectively.)
Is there a 'good way' a life can go that's not direcly related to how good you feel? Give me an example of how a life can go good, while you feel miserable. I don't hold that extreme of a position because I do think feeling good has -some- (albeit very small) value for leading a good life; the point is that feeling good is not sufficient (even if it may or may not be necessary) for living a good life - after all, you can feel good as an abused slave or a drug addict, but neither of us would agree that those lives are actually good, right?
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I think maybe your wording is wrong:
carefree, relaxed and easy-going life can be interpreted into:
No responsibility, too laid back, challenge avoiding, low goal setting.
You asked "how a life can go good, while you feel miserable.", the problem is feel miserable now is not related to whether a life can go good. GO is a continuous term, feeling on the other hand is just a moment.
Everyone has their way to live their life. A miserable moment now can be what's necessary for the success of tomorrow. Getting to the lowest point of my life was one of the turning point that made me grew up and endure what's yet to come.
It's not about how to smoother these moments, it's about how to get through it and learn/grow from it
the so called "live your life now" people was actually one big issue on why USA was hit harder by the finanical crisis.
Their savings rate was far too low, they spent most of what they earn, some even burrow to live beyond their capacity.
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On February 05 2013 23:44 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I may not even talk much. I may also tell you to talk less and be in silence with me if I feel like it. That is fucking creeeeepy.
haha I know
But being willing to cut the crap (small talk), and be Present minded until you have something genuine to say, is really powerful. When the words start surfacing on their own, then you get pure Gold.
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On February 05 2013 23:53 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 23:44 Capped wrote:On February 05 2013 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I may not even talk much. I may also tell you to talk less and be in silence with me if I feel like it. That is fucking creeeeepy. haha I know But being willing to cut the crap (small talk), and be Present minded until you have something genuine to say, is really powerful. When the words start surfacing on their own, then you get pure Gold.
Is this like an over-skype confession session? I'd be in for the lolz maybe then, but probably not with my schedule.
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do you mean you study that stuff for a career or for your own enjoyment? If the former, what is it that you do for a living??
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All of a sudden - QuanticHawks biggest secrets posted in a TL blog.
A confession turned media-trick.
But honestly, the quote from earlier sounds really strange, should we expect heavy breathing or will you mute your mic for us? 
It is a nice thing your doing though, this is just too good an opportunity to make smartass comments to pass-up. Being able to talk to a complete stranger about shit is something you cant do often
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On February 05 2013 23:46 Sauwelios wrote:Show nested quote +Do you disagree that everything you do is motivated by eventually experiencing positive emotions (or a relief from negative ones)? Yes I strongly disagree with that. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if there is any position in philosophy that has been thoroughly refuted then it is exactly the following: Pleasure (or self-interest) is the only motivating principle guiding our actions and everything else is a means to pleasure (or self-interest; they're called psychological hedonism and psychological egoism respectively.) Show nested quote +Is there a 'good way' a life can go that's not direcly related to how good you feel? Give me an example of how a life can go good, while you feel miserable. I don't hold that extreme of a position because I do think feeling good has -some- (albeit very small) value for leading a good life; the point is that feeling good is not sufficient (even if it may or may not be necessary) for living a good life - after all, you can feel good as an abused slave or a drug addict, but neither of us would agree that those lives are actually good, right?
I would like you to drop the theoretic talk now, and simply answer, why do you do the stuff you do in your everyday life?
Maybe you will answer to have money. Why do you want to have money? To buy things? To have freedom? To provide for your children? Yes, all of those. But if those are your wishes (I just put some examples, yours may be different), they still all go back to feeling good. It FEELS right to take care of your kids, you would easily get physical sensations of pain if you watch your kids cry of hunger for example. All the time you follow your 'inner guidance system' which is basically your emotions.
Enduring temporary setbacks to follow your dream for example is also doing the same thing I'm saying, because giving up on a dream would feel TERRIBLE and just horribly wrong, much worse than this setback feels.
Are you sure you can truly feel good as an abused slave or a drug addict? If the abused slave feels really good and ok, and not wanting to change anything, I doubt he's truly abused. A drug addict rarely feels truly good, he feels small reliefs, but in the moments of 'cleanness', he feels terrible about what he's doing, but he doesn't know or it feels to hard to make a real shift, so he numbs himself down.
On February 05 2013 23:53 ETisME wrote:
I think maybe your wording is wrong:
carefree, relaxed and easy-going life can be interpreted into:
No responsibility, too laid back, challenge avoiding, low goal setting.
You asked "how a life can go good, while you feel miserable.", the problem is feel miserable now is not related to whether a life can go good. GO is a continuous term, feeling on the other hand is just a moment.
Everyone has their way to live their life. A miserable moment now can be what's necessary for the success of tomorrow. Getting to the lowest point of my life was one of the turning point that made me grew up and endure what's yet to come.
It's not about how to smoother these moments, it's about how to get through it and learn/grow from it
the so called "live your life now" people was actually one big issue on why USA was hit harder by the finanical crisis.
Their savings rate was far too low, they spent most of what they earn, some even burrow to live beyond their capacity.
Yes, I see how my words could have been interpreted as giving up, and putting on a happy mask, but you managed to get what I meant, so I hope others the point too.
You say misery now can lead to success of tommorow? I agree. And success means some happieness too to you right? So you're aiming for stable happieness. I have nothing to say to you more, because you seem to be going for happiness too and we're on the same track then. Just minor differences in approaches, and viewing angles.
My whole idea is to learn how to go thru life like a boss. Just go for what calls you and feels good/right to do with your life. Experience a setback? Adjust and go for what feels best again. It may be the same thing, it may change in time (especially if your reach the goal). It's not about suffering. Suffering is being stubborn in doing things wrongly. (sometimes it's just down to how you use your mind in interpreting your world).
On February 06 2013 00:17 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 23:53 niteReloaded wrote:On February 05 2013 23:44 Capped wrote:On February 05 2013 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I may not even talk much. I may also tell you to talk less and be in silence with me if I feel like it. That is fucking creeeeepy. haha I know But being willing to cut the crap (small talk), and be Present minded until you have something genuine to say, is really powerful. When the words start surfacing on their own, then you get pure Gold. Is this like an over-skype confession session? I'd be in for the lolz maybe then, but probably not with my schedule.
Yeah, it could be something like that. I really didn't picture it going any specific route, really just came to see if someone was down to do it. *shrug*
I see how it can seem creepy, weird or any other 'adjective', it's completely fine to think that, some people are more curious, some are more reserved.
On February 06 2013 00:19 QuanticHawk wrote:
do you mean you study that stuff for a career or for your own enjoyment? If the former, what is it that you do for a living??
The latter.
I've done different things to earn money, but since this is what I'm so interested in, I aim to move in the direction of making a living by helping people by making all of the different stuff from this 'field' into a concise and effective way of just living a better life.
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On February 06 2013 00:56 Capped wrote:All of a sudden - QuanticHawks biggest secrets posted in a TL blog. A confession turned media-trick. But honestly, the quote from earlier sounds really strange, should we expect heavy breathing or will you mute your mic for us? It is a nice thing your doing though, this is just too good an opportunity to make smartass comments to pass-up. Being able to talk to a complete stranger about shit is something you cant do often
:D
I was thinking of doing it as a Video call... I promise I won't be nude haha
Don't expect anything, because I don't know how it will go! I will try to do only what I'm inspired to do. Maybe I chicken out and go to a safe auto-pilot of small talk and don't really open my heart. This is the first time I'm doing anything like this, never even done ChatRoulette :p But I want to do it in a good way, and maybe really be of use to someone, who knows?
Don't think of this as something serious, I don't view it as such. :p
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I would like you to drop the theoretic talk now, and simply answer, why do you do the stuff you do in your everyday life?
Maybe you will answer to have money. Why do you want to have money? To buy things? To have freedom? To provide for your children? Yes, all of those. But if those are your wishes (I just put some examples, yours may be different), they still all go back to feeling good. It FEELS right to take care of your kids, you would easily get physical sensations of pain if you watch your kids cry of hunger for example. All the time you follow your 'inner guidance system' which is basically your emotions.
Enduring temporary setbacks to follow your dream for example is also doing the same thing I'm saying, because giving up on a dream would feel TERRIBLE and just horribly wrong, much worse than this setback feels. But sometimes we irrationally act on desires that we know will lead to disappointment or frustration, or sometimes doing the right thing doesn't feel good at all. This means that there can be a plurality of values that we might be motivated by, pleasure being just one of them (and not necessarily the best one). Seriously, look up psychological hedonism!
Are you sure you can truly feel good as an abused slave or a drug addict? If the abused slave feels really good and ok, and not wanting to change anything, I doubt he's truly abused. A drug addict rarely feels truly good, he feels small reliefs, but in the moments of 'cleanness', he feels terrible about what he's doing, but he doesn't know or it feels to hard to make a real shift, so he numbs himself down. What if he is very rich and has unlimited access to the drug and really likes taking the drug, spending his entire life doing it? Is this a good life? He surely feels really damn good being on a constant high! And yet he's chained to the drug. I doubt anyone would consider that to be a good life. The point is to show that pleasure is not sufficient for a good life.
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Let's do a skype chat random stranger.
edit: added random stranger
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On February 06 2013 02:02 Barrin wrote:
We're all geniuses
Damn Barrin I know you're trying to make a point but this exaggeration goes waaay beyond silly.
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On February 06 2013 01:35 Sauwelios wrote:Show nested quote +I would like you to drop the theoretic talk now, and simply answer, why do you do the stuff you do in your everyday life?
Maybe you will answer to have money. Why do you want to have money? To buy things? To have freedom? To provide for your children? Yes, all of those. But if those are your wishes (I just put some examples, yours may be different), they still all go back to feeling good. It FEELS right to take care of your kids, you would easily get physical sensations of pain if you watch your kids cry of hunger for example. All the time you follow your 'inner guidance system' which is basically your emotions.
Enduring temporary setbacks to follow your dream for example is also doing the same thing I'm saying, because giving up on a dream would feel TERRIBLE and just horribly wrong, much worse than this setback feels. But sometimes we irrationally act on desires that we know will lead to disappointment or frustration, or sometimes doing the right thing doesn't feel good at all. This means that there can be a plurality of values that we might be motivated by, pleasure being just one of them (and not necessarily the best one). Seriously, look up psychological hedonism! Show nested quote +Are you sure you can truly feel good as an abused slave or a drug addict? If the abused slave feels really good and ok, and not wanting to change anything, I doubt he's truly abused. A drug addict rarely feels truly good, he feels small reliefs, but in the moments of 'cleanness', he feels terrible about what he's doing, but he doesn't know or it feels to hard to make a real shift, so he numbs himself down. What if he is very rich and has unlimited access to the drug and really likes taking the drug, spending his entire life doing it? Is this a good life? He surely feels really damn good being on a constant high! And yet he's chained to the drug. I doubt anyone would consider that to be a good life. The point is to show that pleasure is not sufficient for a good life.
Ok, I will read on it more to see how I feel about the whole thing.
About the drug addict, I would argue that it's the experience he needs to go thru. If he finds it fullfilling for his whole life, then it's the right thing to do for him. I wanna point out that none of us can determine what is 'good' for someone to experience, or what someone is supposed to live like. Many people strive for a 9-5 job, a family, kids and a nice car, and it's like a default version of a 'good life'. Personally (just to point out at least 1 exception) I find it boring, and I find the life so many are living a waste of opportunity.
I have started accepting re-incarnation as something that really makes sense in the last few years, and that drug addict may need to experience one lifetime like that, so then before the 'next round', he may consider, and decide if he wants to experience something new in it. But now I'm probably getting too 'alternative' and abstract for this forum.
@Barrin
I'm too tired to respond to the content of your post, I may do it later, but about the 'you helping me': It's true. One of the reasons I started this topic was because I want to put myself 'out there' more these days. I've been too reserved for most of my life, and this is actually the first time I've spoke this openly and extensively about my interests on TL, and I've been here since 2006 (if you count the banned accounts :p )
On February 06 2013 02:09 obesechicken13 wrote:
Let's do a skype chat random stranger.
edit: added random stranger
my mood changed. I have some of my own things on my mind now... but maybe I'm chickening out? ^^
All I know is that this is interesting to me, and we could easily talk, either today or tommorow or one of these days.
It would help if you have something to talk about, and not just chat for fun with a TLer?
I'm not for small talk and socialisation just for the sake of it.
I'll PM some more.
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BTW forgot to say, this is a cool idea and I hope it helps you and other people. Might try it at some point just for the hell of it although recently I've been preferring text over voice chat. =/
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Hm, I think I wanna do it now again, if someone wants. One part of me is 'afraid', but fuckit, it can only be good and liberating.
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Why does this thread feel like the Jesus Loves Me Chatline?
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Life is suffering. There is no such thing as a carefree easy going life. If you are a depressed person who attains "enlightenment" you are still depressed afterwards. The change is that "I" does not identify with the depression.
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On February 06 2013 01:35 Sauwelios wrote:Show nested quote +I would like you to drop the theoretic talk now, and simply answer, why do you do the stuff you do in your everyday life?
Maybe you will answer to have money. Why do you want to have money? To buy things? To have freedom? To provide for your children? Yes, all of those. But if those are your wishes (I just put some examples, yours may be different), they still all go back to feeling good. It FEELS right to take care of your kids, you would easily get physical sensations of pain if you watch your kids cry of hunger for example. All the time you follow your 'inner guidance system' which is basically your emotions.
Enduring temporary setbacks to follow your dream for example is also doing the same thing I'm saying, because giving up on a dream would feel TERRIBLE and just horribly wrong, much worse than this setback feels. But sometimes we irrationally act on desires that we know will lead to disappointment or frustration, or sometimes doing the right thing doesn't feel good at all. This means that there can be a plurality of values that we might be motivated by, pleasure being just one of them (and not necessarily the best one). Seriously, look up psychological hedonism! Show nested quote +Are you sure you can truly feel good as an abused slave or a drug addict? If the abused slave feels really good and ok, and not wanting to change anything, I doubt he's truly abused. A drug addict rarely feels truly good, he feels small reliefs, but in the moments of 'cleanness', he feels terrible about what he's doing, but he doesn't know or it feels to hard to make a real shift, so he numbs himself down. What if he is very rich and has unlimited access to the drug and really likes taking the drug, spending his entire life doing it? Is this a good life? He surely feels really damn good being on a constant high! And yet he's chained to the drug. I doubt anyone would consider that to be a good life. The point is to show that pleasure is not sufficient for a good life.
What other values might we be motivated by, and how can they not be reduced to just 'pleasure' or 'avoiding pain'?
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EPT
