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On June 19 2012 18:57 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:Good read. The main point is good, even though the ending "rate 1/5 to prove me" was unnecessary. Off topic: + Show Spoiler +Some day TL needs to get over the "I joined before you -> Im better/worth more/more important than you" idea thats apparently rooted pretty deeply here. Never seen it in other communities, which Im grateful for after having seen it here. Except it's completely justified. Join date = summer 2010 is probably joined purely to get a beta key. join date >2010 is probably everything they know about BW is stuff they've read in BWvsSC2 threads while they post "give it time" nonsense. I can see from your post history that you take pretty much 0 interest in BW.
What I don't like about this line of reasoning is that it carries the unfortunate implication that it's impossible to care about BW if you haven't been a member of TL before 2010. SC2-era forumites aren't allowed to be excited about anything that has happened prior to this date. In a nutshell, "here's a beautiful cake. Sorry, you can't eat it. Too late. Nothing compares to it, though. Isn't that a shame?"
It's kind of a "true fan" syndrome, and I feel it poisons the relations in this community.
PS: For the record, I agree completely with the fact that too many people post (I was going to say "tweet") thoughtless one-liners in the SC2 forums, but this is a larger problem than simply the BW vs SC2 debate.
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On June 19 2012 18:57 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:Good read. The main point is good, even though the ending "rate 1/5 to prove me" was unnecessary. Off topic: + Show Spoiler +Some day TL needs to get over the "I joined before you -> Im better/worth more/more important than you" idea thats apparently rooted pretty deeply here. Never seen it in other communities, which Im grateful for after having seen it here. Except it's completely justified. Join date = summer 2010 is probably joined purely to get a beta key. join date >2010 is probably everything they know about BW is stuff they've read in BWvsSC2 threads while they post "give it time" nonsense. I can see from your post history that you take pretty much 0 interest in BW. Don't mistake our elitism. It comes from BW > sc2 and nothing more. Join date just tells us the likely hood of you being an sc2 player. Pre-sc2, I remember very very little join date relevance other than "wow, 2002 you oldschool". Plus, what's inherently wrong with that argument. In terms of probability, older join date = more sc played(hence more skilled), more contributed to the community, more importance to the community. If you haven't noticed, that's also how real life works. Longer time = more experience = more value. Generally speaking of course.
Bolded a few words to show the problem with your argument.
You completely judge a person which you know absolutely nothing about. Nothing. And you judge him by looking at one sole statistic. Thats a problem. Even if statistically all your claims of probabilities are true (and hell, many of them probably are, generally speaking), judging someone by just that one statistic is absolutely awful.
What you say about how real life works is also true, generally (as you point out). But that doesnt mean you judge people by it. You absolutely dont. It would be like watching two politicians have a debate, look at their birth date, see one is 50 and one is 40, and then completely judge that the 50 year old guy knows more about stuff than the 40 year old does. You dont do that. You might keep that information at the back of your head while listening to them, thats all fine. But you dont judge them. And thats the problem with the TL attitude of join dates being important. People use join dates to judge. They dont keep the join dates at the back of their heads, they use it as the sole reason to judge someone.
In real life, people are smart enough to realize that probability isnt enough to judge, hence you dont judge said politicians. But for some reason, on TL join dates seem to be all you need. Where did the smartness go? By all means, feel free to post what you think about mine, or anyone elses, BW experience based on join date. You'll only prove to yourself how wrong you are should you attempt it. So feel free to give it a shot, I dont mind.
Interesting what you said about join date having little relevance pre-sc2. That indicates a few things about why join date suddenly started to become "important". But thats another topic which i'll save for another thread.
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On June 18 2012 17:56 ]343[ wrote:
I still think that with the exception of a small [but vocal] minority, BW fans are angry that:
1) BW is dead (and I'm still pretty sure the primary reasons, or at least catalysts, for that are matchfixing + Blizzard's pushing of SC2), and
I don't think BW is dead or will die any time soon like some the sc2 players/traitors are saying.
Iccup lost 60% of its players but there are still many competitive foreign gamers out there playing.
and fish server is populated with ~5000 users in the korean hours.
a lot of people are still playing warcraft 2 and age of kings, so there is no reason to stop playing the game we like. just because progamers shift to sc2 doesn't mean bw is dead, people played and enjoyed bw way before pro gaming.
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sc2 players/traitors
The sooner people who converse using language like this give up and leave, the sooner this community will improve a hundred fold.
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5003 Posts
On June 18 2012 17:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
People seem to think that justified anger equals it being okay to act like an idiot.
^_^; yeahhhh sorry about that. people like that usually feel super entitled to something like i did
i'm just going to poke rekrul for shining the beacon and leaving now
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Stopped posting on TL for a couple months now, but this blog made me reply. Just a couple lines though:
Discrimination exists. It always has, especially in games. Now, should we tolerate this? It depends. It's not as clear-cut as discrimination in real life. TL even has a rule that gives more leeway, or at least more respect, to those veterans who've contributed one way or another to the site.
This was ignored from the very advent of SC2, up to now, by a lot of new posters. I had never seen the rule desecrated to such an extent as it was during 2010. Lots of bans were handed out. The SC2 communities grew up, matured, and now have a thriving scene of their own.
But the damage was done. The (majority of) BW fans took stock of the situation and decided that 1. SC2 wasn't a "worthy" successor, and 2, That they would stand their ground and enjoy the last vestiges of BW in the BW forums. This led to segregation within the BW community (dividing the hardcore from the ones who enjoyed SC2 and alienating those who completely shifted their attention to SC2). While I think that system was just a temporary effect of the flood of SC2 newcomers, it did make the BW community a much more cynical one. Yet some good remained. When SC2 fans come to the BW forum and ask for help in enjoying BW, he/she's met with so much cheer and helpfulness it's sickening (in a good sense).
The damage, however, continues to be compounded by the reality facing BW fans today: BW is dying. If it was a slow bleed in 2009, at 2012 it's a fountain of blood gushing out. The thriving scene of SC2 was bought at a costly price - BW's blood, new and old pro players alike, abandoned the scene and shifted to the SC2 pro scene. This was by far the most devastating, because the talent pool in BW all of a sudden dried up, and only the purest talent remained. In a sense that's bad for the scene, because once the pure talents retire, who will take up their mantle?
The biggest damage done (in TL) however was to the fanbase itself. It's so weird seeing BW die-hards (who belittled WC3 or RA or AOE in their time) now look at other BW fans scornfully and say that it's time to accept reality: BW is dead. The truth doesn't make a hurtful statement any less hurtful. All these blows to the community have left it bloodied, bruised, and angry. Sometimes it lashes out. Oftentimes, the SC2 community feels the sting of having BW fans run the full gamut of criticism against their beloved SC2.
But this doesn't make me ashamed, only sad. BW is dying. The BW community is bleeding. You could somewhat say that the intent of the community itself is never malicious, but its communal mind is now impaired by all the damage done in so short a period that it sometimes acts in a hurtful way. Does it exonerate the BW community? In my mind, no. But it mitigates the act done. It lowers the level of malice involved. It makes me want to just comfort the BW community, and if the best way to comfort the BW community is to leave it alone in its bitterness and grief, then so be it.
I'm part of that community although I do enjoy SC2 as well. As 2pac stated:
"Sure, BW fans are angry and bitter that the professional BW scene which they watched and loved for last ten years is gonna be no more. But we're mostly angry at the fact that it's not dying a natural death (loss of interest), but it's being killed by various, unnatural reasons (match fixing etc.). So while I'm not defending people who post stuff like that first comment you quoted, I'd just like you to realize where they're coming from."
That anger will wash over in time. Please don't compound on it by saying the community makes you shameful.
All this doesn't excuse the behavior of some BW fans who keep whining about and bashing SC2, but while moderating or judging them, take into account the fact that their own judgment is somewhat impaired. Passion does that. Current LRing in BW tourney forum is nothing like the old LRing by the veterans, the ones who made the BW community what it was, and still is (sometimes). So continue to understand, and maybe help sometimes by making the LR better, be it by modding it or contributing to it. But not like this, not like this.
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On June 19 2012 15:09 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 13:46 Zergneedsfood wrote:On June 18 2012 08:19 ZoW wrote:do you want to be remembered as a bunch of elitist assholes? yes, yes we do I stand with Zow. That's fine, just don't get mad when people call pathetic people pathetic.
Why would I get mad? Being a bw elitist is one of the few reasons why I still have fun on TL. It gives me good laughs. What?
And for the record I haven't done anything that this thread would deem "shameful", nor do I think a majority, if not all, bw elitists have done anything of the sort on a consistent basis.
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SC2 community brings a lot of this on themselves. Just look at how desperately they've wanted to disprove LoL stream numbers when it turns out to be the more popular game, making up lies and then willing them into truth like "oh the lol client is counting every player as a stream viewer"
Or look at stream chats / TL threads when a game like Dota or LoL precedes a SC2 final like Dreamhack. They go full retard and start dismissing the game, whatever it is, and making sweeping claims like it's not as good for spectators, it's hard to follow, etc, without knowing a thing about it. Not just on streams but right here as well.
Almost everything they do is that doesn't relate to SC2 anti-ESPORTS and yet ESPORTS is their mantra at the same time. It's ridiculous. Most BW fans would watch War3, CS, etc at the rare few tournaments we got a bit of every game. Yes rivalry existed with War3 but not to the extent that the average SC2 fan seems to want every single game out of their personal ESPORTS space.
That's the behaviour people should be ranting about, not the bitter resentment of the small, completely inconsequential BW fans (sorry guys it's true, we don't matter any more, we've been marginalized). It's far more disruptive to ESPORTS as an industry
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A very interesting and poignant read from the PoV of a broodwar fan, thanks. I agree with everything you have said.
I would like to say that I joined TL when the SC2 beta came out. I (like almost every gamer in their early 30s) played Star1 and BW when they were released, did a few games online with friends and never really cared about korean esports other than knowing it existed. But since joining I have always been struck by the strangely aggressive views of the "die-hard" bw fans intent on lording it up over newcomers.
From the point of view of someone new coming into the scene, (and I say new when I have been a member for over 2 years!) It seems like a weird and childish form of elitism... "My game is better than your game and nothing you say will change my opinion!" Gaming is my chosen form of entertainment in lieu of watching tv or films every night. I certainly do not hunt down fans of a TV series I dislike and tell them how shit they are constantly, which is what these trolls seem intent on doing.
It is sad for you guys I know, but your BW forums are so elitist and "butt-hurt" that I know non-TL members who actually come to the website just to browse the threads in there for a laugh...
I am sure it will all die out eventually - I would love to get some of these people to sit down with me and watch MKP vs Symbol from this mornings GSL and tell me exactly why that incredibly high level and exciting all-action macro game is terrible, and what they need to do precisely to fix it. Unfortunately it seems these people have already decided that their TL existence should be devoted to being elitist assholes to other innocent bemused gamers, simply because the can.
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On June 19 2012 23:14 arioch wrote:
A very interesting and poignant read from the PoV of a broodwar fan, thanks. I agree with everything you have said.
I would like to say that I joined TL when the SC2 beta came out. I (like almost every gamer in their early 30s) played Star1 and BW when they were released, did a few games online with friends and never really cared about korean esports other than knowing it existed. But since joining I have always been struck by the strangely aggressive views of the "die-hard" bw fans intent on lording it up over newcomers.
From the point of view of someone new coming into the scene, (and I say new when I have been a member for over 2 years!) It seems like a weird and childish form of elitism... "My game is better than your game and nothing you say will change my opinion!" Gaming is my chosen form of entertainment in lieu of watching tv or films every night. I certainly do not hunt down fans of a TV series I dislike and tell them how shit they are constantly, which is what these trolls seem intent on doing.
It is sad for you guys I know, but your BW forums are so elitist and "butt-hurt" that I know non-TL members who actually come to the website just to browse the threads in there for a laugh...
I am sure it will all die out eventually - I would love to get some of these people to sit down with me and watch MKP vs Symbol from this mornings GSL and tell me exactly why that incredibly high level and exciting all-action macro game is terrible, and what they need to do precisely to fix it. Unfortunately it seems these people have already decided that their TL existence should be devoted to being elitist assholes to other innocent bemused gamers, simply because the can.
If I wanted to sleep, I'd sleep on my bed instead of on my chair.
Also, if you're going to say dumb shit like this, at least delete your other paragraphs so you don't sound as ignorant as you do sound elitist.
People come in here stomping on BW even though they don't know anything about it. If you're going to say "LOL I only played like three games of BW with only my right hand so these bw elitists are just wrong somehow", then don't whine that we're calling you out on that shit, because unlike a bunch of SC2 fans who just spew rhetoric like "OH I'VE BEEN A BW FAN CUZ FLASH", we gave SC2 a chance and we probably wanted SC2 to do so much better than a lot of people.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 19 2012 02:02 Chef wrote:
You're right, that isn't fair lol. There were a lot of good players ready to come into their own and overtake those 5. You include Bisu who slumped for most of those years. I would say that Soulkey Jangbi and some other key players were ready to take over if it hadn't been for extraneous circumstances. 2007 was so long ago I don't even know that Flash was anything more than the guy who cheesed Bisu out of an OSL and was bad vs carriers at that time... Savior was still playing and midas was good and a lot of other big players that died down to the big 4. Not that I think a players career span should be limited to 2 years.... That is just such a weird thing to say with Hiya's Terran stove and hive tech ZvZ and queens vs Terrans new bio -> mech build... give me a break. Things only got gimmicky when they started losing teams and having to play SC2 at the same time. Before that there were a lot of legit games going on and a lot of good A class players coming into being and leaving. You can't call a game stale because S-class players last a few years. Nal_rA and Boxer and Nada were around forever and going deep into tournaments for at least 5 years... And if you wanna talk about gimmicks and showmanship, Boxer and Nal_rA are your main event lol. Unless you mean one off events like all stars where they have a day of fun games -.-
I think you really are gonna need to try hard to analyse BW objectively, since the scene dying affirms your decision to move on from it a lot. Not to blame you or to say that you shouldn't have, you certainly found a good deal of success in SC2 and it's cool, but BW was not a stale game before they lost their practice time and came on hard times. There was still a lot of really cool stuff happening if you were watching.
I moved on from BW in 2007 because of Poker, so I wouldn't say SC2/SC scene dying did anything to affirm my decision to move on, as it was not in any way based on me thinking BW was going to die.
What I mean by gimmicks is not inside the game, but out of it - fancy post-game ceremonies and the like. It's not that they aren't fun, but they are generally brought in when numbers start to dip and just having good games is not enough.
I'll concede tho that you are almost certainly (I would say definitely but I can't since I don't know) right that BW was still a vibrant game in terms of gameplay. Community and viewership wise, less convinced.
On June 19 2012 07:42 T0MORR0W wrote:
As a newbie that has observed these things, what has always confused me is the unqualified assertion that BW is the "better" game, usually on grounds that the strategy is deeper, units take more skill to control, or whatever. What I wonder is "how can you say that?". Have all of these people who say that SC2 micro is a joke, or that the game lacks depth actually experienced or observed it's full potential? If so, I would like for them to hook me up with a pass to the league they're watching.
I think people greatly understate the depth of SC2, for sure, but BW is the better game... it just is. Not by as much as most people think, but it's better. Better question is whether SC2 or Starcraft (starcraft without brood war that is), is the better game.
I would rather watch SC2 than SC without brood war, that's for sure. Don't take this to mean that I think LotV will bring SC2 up to par with BW or surpass it, I don't think it will, there's just some things missing that will never be changed..... but there's a chance it brings it close enough for everyone to feel okay about it I think.
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Why is it ok that people who don't even play the game declare it dead?
it's actually quite the opposite, all the d and d- horde shifted to sc2, that is a good thing for bw. you say foreign talents? well they are just money and fame hungry nerds. scbw is left with real men and true gamers, because we don't need hordes of WoW players to declare our game alive.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 19 2012 22:43 floor exercise wrote:
SC2 community brings a lot of this on themselves. Just look at how desperately they've wanted to disprove LoL stream numbers when it turns out to be the more popular game, making up lies and then willing them into truth like "oh the lol client is counting every player as a stream viewer"
Or look at stream chats / TL threads when a game like Dota or LoL precedes a SC2 final like Dreamhack. They go full retard and start dismissing the game, whatever it is, and making sweeping claims like it's not as good for spectators, it's hard to follow, etc, without knowing a thing about it. Not just on streams but right here as well.
Almost everything they do is that doesn't relate to SC2 anti-ESPORTS and yet ESPORTS is their mantra at the same time. It's ridiculous. Most BW fans would watch War3, CS, etc at the rare few tournaments we got a bit of every game. Yes rivalry existed with War3 but not to the extent that the average SC2 fan seems to want every single game out of their personal ESPORTS space.
That's the behaviour people should be ranting about, not the bitter resentment of the small, completely inconsequential BW fans (sorry guys it's true, we don't matter any more, we've been marginalized). It's far more disruptive to ESPORTS as an industry
You've been here long enough to remember that this is not a unique trait to SC2. The BW community has spent literally the last... I dunno, 10 years doing exactly this in every single poll or thread involving numbers or games to be choosen for anything.
I know because I was part of the people doing that for the longest time lol
The hatred towards LoL really annoys me too, even though I know exactly where it's coming from (I like LoL, but I dont think it's as good of a game as SC2 and I can definitely see being annoyed that it's getting bigger numbers).
On June 20 2012 00:15 Operations wrote:
Why is it ok that people who don't even play the game declare it dead?
it's actually quite the opposite, all the d and d- horde shifted to sc2, that is a good thing for bw. you say foreign talents? well they are just money and fame hungry nerds. scbw is left with real men and true gamers, because we don't need hordes of WoW players to declare our game alive.
Progamers, and thus talent, will go where money is.
That's why in US schools you'd generally have the best athletes in football followed by basketball followed by wrestling (or so I understand the hierarchy goes). There will be passion driven exceptions, there always are, but the pool from which to draw on will be larger the more money there is in a given sport or game.
A lot of the top euro players have WC3 backgrounds, which is where the majority of the talent went during the years leading up to SC2s release. There were good non-korean SC2 players in europe, certainly, but there wasn't exactly a huge influx of new blood.
In Korea, obvioulsy the vast majority had BW backgrounds, almost all the talent went into BW as WC3 was almost as niche there as BW was in europe (not quite, but close enough in comparison as BW in Korea dwarfed WC3 in Europe).
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Hyrule18937 Posts
On June 20 2012 00:15 Operations wrote:
Why is it ok that people who don't even play the game declare it dead?
it's actually quite the opposite, all the d and d- horde shifted to sc2, that is a good thing for bw. you say foreign talents? well they are just money and fame hungry nerds. scbw is left with real men and true gamers, because we don't need hordes of WoW players to declare our game alive.
Because there are no more professional leagues. That makes it professionally dead. This is not a subjective statement.
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On June 20 2012 00:17 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 00:15 Operations wrote:
Why is it ok that people who don't even play the game declare it dead?
it's actually quite the opposite, all the d and d- horde shifted to sc2, that is a good thing for bw. you say foreign talents? well they are just money and fame hungry nerds. scbw is left with real men and true gamers, because we don't need hordes of WoW players to declare our game alive. Because there are no more professional leagues. That makes it professionally dead. This is not a subjective statement.
The point is, that anything like this makes you somewhat angry on a subtile level. It suggests that it would be pointless/stupid to still watch the game even on a "not professional" basis. No idea why anyone would say that. Also, no idea why a lot of BW players, that by definition should be older and more mature, always chose to not ignore it and pick up on it.
I still don't see the point of this blog, even less the comments that say anything about that would be true for the majority of BW's players, nor the people running around and justify either what the OP is saying or why it would be understandable to flame (lol).
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Hyrule18937 Posts
The point of the blog is that GM goes through approximately all* the reports every day and sees a lot of pointless game bashing and he's calling people out on it. There's every right to be upset, but insulting people for something they have no control over is dumb, and he's saying this about both groups.
While I understand that there are plenty of people who say stupid things like "bw is dead move on", they are partially right. Professional BW is dead. I'm sure BW will hold on with an amateur scene for a long while (just look at SSBM). But come on the flaming is fucking annoying.
*seriously there are a lot of reports
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Ya, I was aware the you moved onto poker first. I wonder if that might not have been because your interest in a game is somewhat dependent on being one of the top competitors in it. That thought isn't entirely relevent to the discussion, but I have noticed you played at a very high level in a lot of games, but such dedication can be fatiguing (as it was for Testie and many other players who'd been very good). Put simply, when you no longer have the time or desire to maintain your competitive edge, you have difficulty just playing the game casually having experienced being one of the best in it. I imagine it must be hard for a lot of players to go from being very relevent to being mediocre, as though they have to uphold the skill their name has come to be represented with. Whereas a player like myself who has never dedicated himself enough that it would even matter if he played worse, can continue to enjoy the game without worrying about my reputation. Sort of a similar phenomenon to writer's block... once you've written something very good, it becomes stressful for a lot of people to write again because they feel they need to surpass it or at least live up to it. Where crappy writers can write endlessly because there isn't really a bar they need to meet.
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On June 19 2012 23:24 Zergneedsfood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 23:14 arioch wrote:
A very interesting and poignant read from the PoV of a broodwar fan, thanks. I agree with everything you have said.
I would like to say that I joined TL when the SC2 beta came out. I (like almost every gamer in their early 30s) played Star1 and BW when they were released, did a few games online with friends and never really cared about korean esports other than knowing it existed. But since joining I have always been struck by the strangely aggressive views of the "die-hard" bw fans intent on lording it up over newcomers.
From the point of view of someone new coming into the scene, (and I say new when I have been a member for over 2 years!) It seems like a weird and childish form of elitism... "My game is better than your game and nothing you say will change my opinion!" Gaming is my chosen form of entertainment in lieu of watching tv or films every night. I certainly do not hunt down fans of a TV series I dislike and tell them how shit they are constantly, which is what these trolls seem intent on doing.
It is sad for you guys I know, but your BW forums are so elitist and "butt-hurt" that I know non-TL members who actually come to the website just to browse the threads in there for a laugh...
I am sure it will all die out eventually - I would love to get some of these people to sit down with me and watch MKP vs Symbol from this mornings GSL and tell me exactly why that incredibly high level and exciting all-action macro game is terrible, and what they need to do precisely to fix it. Unfortunately it seems these people have already decided that their TL existence should be devoted to being elitist assholes to other innocent bemused gamers, simply because the can.
If I wanted to sleep, I'd sleep on my bed instead of on my chair. Also, if you're going to say dumb shit like this, at least delete your other paragraphs so you don't sound as ignorant as you do sound elitist. People come in here stomping on BW even though they don't know anything about it. If you're going to say "LOL I only played like three games of BW with only my right hand so these bw elitists are just wrong somehow", then don't whine that we're calling you out on that shit, because unlike a bunch of SC2 fans who just spew rhetoric like "OH I'VE BEEN A BW FAN CUZ FLASH", we gave SC2 a chance and we probably wanted SC2 to do so much better than a lot of people.
You are generalising here - not only have I not "stomped" on Broodwar, I have watched all of the starleagues since I joined in 2010. And the vast majority of people who like SC2 are like me and also either enjoy broodwar, or simply dont care.
The difference between the two forums is night and day. One in every 500 threads in the SC2 forums contains something scathing against BW, one in every 5 threads in the broodwar forums is slagging off SC2 players and fans for no reason other than their elitism. Hence why the OP has posted this blog.
Apologies for posting what you think is "dumb shit" but I am not entirely sure what point you are trying to make.
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On June 20 2012 00:37 tofucake wrote:
The point of the blog is that GM goes through approximately all* the reports every day and sees a lot of pointless game bashing and he's calling people out on it. There's every right to be upset, but insulting people for something they have no control over is dumb, and he's saying this about both groups.
While I understand that there are plenty of people who say stupid things like "bw is dead move on", they are partially right. Professional BW is dead. I'm sure BW will hold on with an amateur scene for a long while (just look at SSBM). But come on the flaming is fucking annoying.
*seriously there are a lot of reports
Well. That is part of being a moderator, isn't it? I have huge respect for people doing things like that in their free time. I can understand that he might get a biased view, but especially him, a moderator, should know better. If he didn't, he would surely not spend his free time, right?
I still don't think he should go around and rant suggesting that every single brood war player would exactly react like this. Most of the following discussion is pointless and only ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy. Just look at the comments: everyone argues for their respective scene, so... his point is we should let it go, but eventually he will get an exact contradicting reaction from both sides. Both now think they were right from the start. Oil in the fire.
So again. What is the point he is trying to make? He sure is no space Jesus from the future that will end all discussion with one small rant-blog. Guess this phenomeon will only go away over time, if at all. The time right now is hard for the BW players, so again, just a biased view on a minority coming from someone that does read these reports on a daily basis.
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On June 19 2012 13:40 Aerisky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 12:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 19 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
I agree. When SC2 comes to its end I can only hope I don't succumb to spewing vitriol at others for enjoying something new.
have you read any thread that involved LoL and Dota lately LOL ROFL no kidding...the epitome of multipurpose, all-encompassing, pure unadulterated vitriolic rage is LoL/DotA, whether it's discussion or in-game play or what have ye >__<
You completely missed the point I believe. He's saying, look at the SC2 population writing such scathing things about LoL/DotA, like "bad game to watch" and "ezpz game, can play with one hand." Now compare that to what you think the BW players are saying about SC2.
On June 19 2012 19:23 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 18:57 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On June 19 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:Good read. The main point is good, even though the ending "rate 1/5 to prove me" was unnecessary. Off topic: + Show Spoiler +Some day TL needs to get over the "I joined before you -> Im better/worth more/more important than you" idea thats apparently rooted pretty deeply here. Never seen it in other communities, which Im grateful for after having seen it here. Except it's completely justified. Join date = summer 2010 is probably joined purely to get a beta key. join date >2010 is probably everything they know about BW is stuff they've read in BWvsSC2 threads while they post "give it time" nonsense. I can see from your post history that you take pretty much 0 interest in BW. Don't mistake our elitism. It comes from BW > sc2 and nothing more. Join date just tells us the likely hood of you being an sc2 player. Pre-sc2, I remember very very little join date relevance other than "wow, 2002 you oldschool". Plus, what's inherently wrong with that argument. In terms of probability, older join date = more sc played(hence more skilled), more contributed to the community, more importance to the community. If you haven't noticed, that's also how real life works. Longer time = more experience = more value. Generally speaking of course. Bolded a few words to show the problem with your argument. You completely judge a person which you know absolutely nothing about. Nothing. And you judge him by looking at one sole statistic. Thats a problem. Even if statistically all your claims of probabilities are true (and hell, many of them probably are, generally speaking), judging someone by just that one statistic is absolutely awful. What you say about how real life works is also true, generally (as you point out). But that doesnt mean you judge people by it. You absolutely dont. It would be like watching two politicians have a debate, look at their birth date, see one is 50 and one is 40, and then completely judge that the 50 year old guy knows more about stuff than the 40 year old does. You dont do that. You might keep that information at the back of your head while listening to them, thats all fine. But you dont judge them. And thats the problem with the TL attitude of join dates being important. People use join dates to judge. They dont keep the join dates at the back of their heads, they use it as the sole reason to judge someone. In real life, people are smart enough to realize that probability isnt enough to judge, hence you dont judge said politicians. But for some reason, on TL join dates seem to be all you need. Where did the smartness go? By all means, feel free to post what you think about mine, or anyone elses, BW experience based on join date. You'll only prove to yourself how wrong you are should you attempt it. So feel free to give it a shot, I dont mind. Interesting what you said about join date having little relevance pre-sc2. That indicates a few things about why join date suddenly started to become "important". But thats another topic which i'll save for another thread.
About the bolded part: I'd say it's more like if you're working at a company and two people are up for promotion. One has 35 years of experience in the field and the other has 10. Sure, the person with 10 might be harder working, more intelligent, etc. However, more than likely we'd see the promotion go to the 35 years of experience guy.
That's kind of the same thing here. People who joined post SC2 may have watched a lot of BW, but there's a problem: the conditional chance that they are a BW fan given that they joined after SC2 came out is... well extremely low. Like, extremely, extremely low. They might turn out to watch a few BW games, get excited about the game we love, and who knows may become a new convert to the beauty of BW but they almost don't know much about BW coming in. They might have even played a few games but I'm sure most of the BW fanatics have played hundreds, if not thousands of games. So "a few" doesn't really compare.
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EPT
