Shame - Page 12

On June 18 2012 15:48 ghrur wrote:
I consider myself a BW fan. I love it to death. I still play it a ton, and I'm trying to get into the foreign community, and I think it's fine right now. You're just looking at the wrong places. I think the DRTL, ISL, ASL, etc. threads are quite good generally. The ones with interviews and summaries are filled with interesting information. I also love the fact that we get ex-pros streaming on Twitch now. It's incredible. And I love the small, close-knit community feel that comes from it.

I abhor the fact that Korean pro-BW is dying. I feel like Ideas, in that I don't want to watch these players, whom I cherished and loved, play a horrible match that ruins my idea of them. Taekbang Leessang and Fanta are supposed to be infallible. They're supposed to have insane reaction times, builds, timings, etc. that makes me drop my jaw in awe. I don't want to watch a new season where they're just as mediocre as hyvaa or Roro or somebody. So I don't watch Proleague anymore. Maybe when they get good at SC2, I will for the players, because as Harem said, support the players, but for now, I want to keep my image of my BW idols. Because... isn't that what matters at the end of the day? Our pristine images of Yellow as the Storm Zerg, Boxer as the Emperor, OoV as the Cheater Terran, NaDa as the genius terran, Flash as God, and Jaedong as the Tyrant? I don't remember them as mediocre SC2 players or has-been BW players at the end of their careers. I remember them at their prime, and Korean BW's prime has ended. I'll cherish it well, but I don't want to ruin its image now. It's too late now.

To be honest, I wish Alethios's article were true. Korean BW wasn't downed quickly in its prime. Sure it was cut, but now, it's just bleeding a slow, agonizing death. I can't bear to watch my friend die like that.

That said, I don't hate SC2. I think the community's fine. The game can be entertaining. I like watching MLGs, Dreamhacks, IPLs, etc. I mean, there are too many games for my taste, but I loved the KeSPA invitational. I'm going to enjoy Dreamhack (GO TL!). I thought DRG vs Alicia was hella entertaining.

But it's nowhere near the heights of BW. Even games like Stephano vs Polt at MLG had stupid lapses of attention, poor multitasking, late reactions, and shitty decision making when compared to the pristine matches of Leessang-rok or Jangbi vs Fantasy. And that makes me bitter. It makes me bitter as hell. I can't believe such incredible games like Bisu vs Flash at the end of Proleague is being replaced by shit like this. YOU CAN'T EVEN FORCEFIELD CORRECTLY! But then, I get a sense of elitism. Ha! You can't play as well as our pros! They'll crush you! You just wait! And I totally understand how people are posting such hateful, spiteful messages in the BW threads. Hell, I feel the same way. Fuck you SC2 for taking my pros away and making them play such shitty games like that, filled with micro-restrictions and everything! Fuck you SC2 for taking away those beautiful BW News posts! Fuck you SC2 for taking away Stork's reaver micro, Jaedong's Mutas, and Fantasy's vultures! I don't even like Fantasy!

I don't post such hateful messages, though. There's no point. Pro-BW will die, and I'll have to accept it. I hate it, I hate it to death, but I'll have to accept it. There's no point to my hate either. It's all just emotional outpourings out of grief and sadness. At the end of the day, my hate doesn't mean anything. SC2 will grow anyway. My favorite BW players have moved on. I already watch the game and get tense excitement out of it sometime. Why should I post such messages when the SC2 community is filled with incredible people anyway? No, it's better to leave my rants and temper tantrums to myself, and it's better to just watch with joy as the foreign community tries to grow up again. To watch this new home grown community find a place for itself and earn sustainability, hopefully as well as the FGC. It's time to get some new heroes in BW for me, like Sziky, Sneazel, KC, and Pike. It's time to love whatever I can get as I watch Eagle and Larva stream, and hope for more like Mahell and Minho. Besides, I think having a positive outlook makes me happier too.

So, to wrap up this uber-long post, to hell with hate. I'd rather be happy.

On June 18 2012 12:31 Ideas wrote:


this post rings so true. I gave up on the hybrid league after the 1st week. I don't even want to know it exists anymore. the games are fucking awful. it fucking sucks watching my favorite BW players have no choice but to play a game i personally hate. the BW tourney thread is mostly dead outside of the OSL threads. foreigner leagues don't get nearly as much buzz for some reason (I think the ISL was actually pretty fun, although no one is really LRing the thread or anything), and hopefully that will change with foreigner leagues in the future now that there will be no more kespa leagues.

that was so fucking shitty for me to watch 8 of my favorite players ever (8 of the greatest BW players OF ALL TIME) come all the way to america to play fucking sc2. do you know how much it sucks for me that such a thing happened and I didn't even care about what they are playing to watch at all? that fucking sucks. last season of proleague i was so pumped to watch each and every match. i was so thrilled when PL finally started in november. after 1 week of this crap I don't even care. the games are fucking garbage (BW games, ofc the SC2 games are bad). 90+% of the games are either cheese or at least 1 player playing AWFUL. the only thing worse than having my favorite players play a game I hate is them playing a game I love so much totally awful or uninspired and making me not even care to watch them play BW.

so of course I'm just as bitter as most people that bitch at SC2 folk, I just usually have the decency to let it all out where most people can't read it

But then I'm lucky to have a proper outlet for these feelings or depression/rage. I have a group of BW friends that all feel the same way so at least we can bitch about together and go through this shit together. but a lot of people (probably the ones this thread is about) don't have a proper outlet for that so they post stuff in the only place they know where they could. sure it's mostly garbage posting and rarely well thought-out, but fuck i understand totally why they would want to do that, even if it's not acceptable behavior.

+ Show Spoiler [side rant where I bitch about how BW s…] +

edit - reason why I think a lot of these people are taking it out on SC2 fans: they feel as I described: extremely sad/angry at how this thing they loved (pro BW) is being raped right in front of them. and then you have all these sc2 fans (either completely ignorant of BW scene or past BW fans) cheering on the destruction of this thing you love. of course it makes you hate them and feel horrible things about them. like fuck on opening night i HATED reading hotbid's blog where he posted outdated BW tidbits and LRing and then cheered on and hyped up BW legends playing SC2. I mean i know where he's coming from but at the time I was so emotional i kept saying to myself DUDE FUCK YOU THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER YOU ARENT A REAL FAN. luckily I didnt actually post that though . we're both fans just of different things I guess and let me re-state that I don't actually mean that, it's just how I felt at the time and luckily had the restraint to not post that. but yea overall what I'm saying is I totally empathize with what these people are saying and I wish they were just as lucky as me to have a better outlet for of these feelings.

On June 18 2012 18:29 BarneyEX wrote:
I think that BW fans simply do not find SC2 entertaining and losing our source of entertainment that has accompanied us over the years has made us depressed. After watching occasional SC2 games since the beta until now, I could barely squeeze out an single ounce of entertainment as most of the games simply bored me to sleep, it was so bad until I actually fell asleep once watching a GSL finals.

On June 18 2012 19:19 bgx wrote:

Bingo!

There is a big group of people that will be left with nothing after professional BW demise, just because they do not like SC2. This is most honest and most proper feeling. You may like chocolate but you are not forced to like chocolate cake for example, and no one in the world would force you to do so.

Now what is left for them? Simply retiring, their hobby is declared dead and past. Im talking about majority of BW fans here, minority is still playing/following foreign BW, kudos to them. But its not that simply, certain bonds were created, some of them are KT fans, Bisu fans, Flash fans, whatever fans. And they DO NOT LIKE chocolate cake. Its pretty hard time for them i must admit. Its not elitism its simply being involved in something emotionally, and people who call these true fans elitist simply never yet experienced this. But im pretty sure they will in the future if there will be one, SC2/SC3 will repeat the process.

Edit: I may be pretty new to TL but i experienced the similar issue with CS1.6/Source, in 2004 everyone looked up for Source but most 1.6 people tried it few times and unistalled, there was 10% of 1.6 in Source and there was no point for people who loved 1.6 to play Source. Thankfully there was no transition back then, but if there was im pretty sure i would as mad as "angry BW elitists" are right now.

I follow BW/SC2 and treat it separately, they are totally different after all.

On June 19 2012 02:05 ShadeR wrote:

Don't mean to be rude but well no shit. The only reason i watch SPL is because of habit. I don't even watch with the hope that there might miraculously be a good game of BW. Thats for the optimists. I've tried to think positive about the hybrid league but now several weeks in i have to admit. Baby i've been faking my orgasms.

On June 19 2012 03:03 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
There's a lot of sensitive snowflakes in the SC2 community. The witch hunts are proof enough of that. Moreover, they construe far too many things as "hating" and "bashing." They keep throwing the word "elitist" around like it's an epithet. Yes, I'm an elitist. I think BW is a better game. I think it has a better community. I think our perspective, coming from BW and seeing SC2, is more informed than a large portion of the SC2 community.

The fact is, we think BW is the best game, the best e-sport. Necessarily, that means we think SC2 is worse. Inferior. Inadequate, unsatisfactory. It is bad in comparison. Not as good. It was a disappointment. It could have been and can be better. If saying these things upsets you, is "bashing" and "hating" on SC2, is what you're calling elitism, then we don't really care. That's a problem with your sensitivity, and of course we're unapologetic for it. Many in the SC2 community have even voiced their agreement. And really, why wouldn't you want SC2 to be even better if it could be? Solely defensiveness.

You know what? I could make SC2 a markedly better game in less than five minutes and with hardly any effort. I can even perform this miracle with zero access to its codebase.

There's this strawman that pervades the OP and this thread. As a BW fan, I don't hate you for your freedoms. Love SC2 all you want, I don't care. I hate the ignorant neophytes in the SC2 community being the most defensive. The people who respond to every SC2-critical thread with, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is a strategy game. We don't want any of that spammy BW clickity-clack in here." Just read Barrin's super-thread on the breadth of SC2 and how he had to couch all of his ideas in the most benign language possible to assuage the ire of the BW-ignorant, and how he still got responses that amounted to "If you love BW so much, why don't you marry it, grampa?" Somehow this includes terrible, terrible damn ugh Dustin Browder. The future looks bright.

I hate that it's impossible to have any meaningful critical discussion without being shouted down by the BW-ignorant posting the same rehashed arguments that were refuted years ago and get reposted every 10 pages because they refuse to read the thread.

I hate the people who crow about "ESPORTS!" and lick their lips at the death of BW.

I hate the placatory platitudes. "They're totally different games!" No, they're not. Especially not when one is killing the other and cannibalizing its leagues, sponsors, and players. "But there's expansions!" Will they make it better with absolute certainty? What if SC2's deficiencies run deeper than a few new units can fix? Will it ever be as good as BW? Let's bet everything on a hope and a prayer, that sounds like a good idea. Forgive me if Blizzard has drained me of my hopefulness.

You say we hate the SC2 community. Maybe it only seems that way because there's so many deplorable and immature elements in it that we actually do hate. Heaven help us if we include Reddit.

Maybe the only reason you're writing about your "shame" of the BW community's handful of persistently spiteful posters, instead of your shame of the SC2 community's huge percentage of ignorant and immature is that you didn't expect better of them.

On June 19 2012 03:19 ninazerg wrote:
To be honest, even though I think many of the people on Teamliquid are intelligent, calculated, stable and empathetic individuals, I don't think we're above having emotions. I think human beings have a sense of tribalism, and at this stage in our evolution, it hasn't gone away. So yeah, I agree, "Let's all stop fighting and get along." I get that. I'm fine with it, like, I'll be saying "BW and SC2 are both cool!" and be at peace with it, but then when watching a BroodWar stream, someone will come in and go "Why do you guys still play this game? I'm not trolling, I'm just curious." even though the answer is so ostensibly obvious that the question is frivolous to ask. Repeat this a few dozen or hundred times, and it starts to make me think they're trying to piss us off. My imagination runs wild, envisioning a bunch of SC2 peeps in a chat group, colluding with one another in their boredom saying, "Hey, let's go into that bw streamchat and troll them and watch 'em squirm! Whoever takes the longest to get banned wins!"

That, compounded with this "transition" in the OSL just pisses me off. I'm sorry, it just does. I think a lot of people feel the same way, and find themselves slipping and lashing out at SC2 fans. I don't think it's right to insult them, ridicule SC2, ridicule the players, say that D- players are the equivalent of high Masters. I think BroodWar players need SOME kind of outlet to say how they feel about the state of the game though.

The reason I posted my blog post (if you're wondering where the hell that came from) had nothing to do with insulting SC2. It was like me asking, "If Blizzard made a new game that was profoundly different than SC2 (Because I know a lot of people love SC2), and the SC2 community completely died, wouldn't you feel the same way as BroodWar fans are feeling now?" I think SC2 fans would be appalled if, in some hypothetical future, someone posted saying that everyone should quit SC2 to move onto the new game because it will "help e-sports". There would be torches and pitchforks waving outside that person's house.

I really, really don't feel like you should feel "shame" for BroodWar players being upset about what is arguably the greatest game ever meeting it's end. That's a big thing. A lot of people have 10+ years of memories playing this game, and while it's just a game for some people, other people see it as something special, as something that has changed their lives for the better. When you have something like that, it's difficult to see it pass away, but it hurts when people insult the game as it passes away. The reaction you're seeing should not come as a surprise, even if a majority of the response seems to be entirely immature.

On June 19 2012 17:47 ShadeR wrote:

Except GMarshal's quotes don't display a lashing out at the SC2 community. Criticisms of SC2 are not criticisms of SC2 fans. The elitist asshole moniker however is prevalent, but no biggie because the BW community has embraced it. Yes we are the elite. It's ironic too because (correct me if i'm wrong) since TL's inception elitism and being the envy of other lowlier forums has been a staple part of TL history.

On June 19 2012 22:10 Caladbolg wrote:
Stopped posting on TL for a couple months now, but this blog made me reply. Just a couple lines though:

Discrimination exists. It always has, especially in games. Now, should we tolerate this? It depends. It's not as clear-cut as discrimination in real life. TL even has a rule that gives more leeway, or at least more respect, to those veterans who've contributed one way or another to the site.

This was ignored from the very advent of SC2, up to now, by a lot of new posters. I had never seen the rule desecrated to such an extent as it was during 2010. Lots of bans were handed out. The SC2 communities grew up, matured, and now have a thriving scene of their own.

But the damage was done. The (majority of) BW fans took stock of the situation and decided that 1. SC2 wasn't a "worthy" successor, and 2, That they would stand their ground and enjoy the last vestiges of BW in the BW forums. This led to segregation within the BW community (dividing the hardcore from the ones who enjoyed SC2 and alienating those who completely shifted their attention to SC2). While I think that system was just a temporary effect of the flood of SC2 newcomers, it did make the BW community a much more cynical one. Yet some good remained. When SC2 fans come to the BW forum and ask for help in enjoying BW, he/she's met with so much cheer and helpfulness it's sickening (in a good sense).

The damage, however, continues to be compounded by the reality facing BW fans today: BW is dying. If it was a slow bleed in 2009, at 2012 it's a fountain of blood gushing out. The thriving scene of SC2 was bought at a costly price - BW's blood, new and old pro players alike, abandoned the scene and shifted to the SC2 pro scene. This was by far the most devastating, because the talent pool in BW all of a sudden dried up, and only the purest talent remained. In a sense that's bad for the scene, because once the pure talents retire, who will take up their mantle?

The biggest damage done (in TL) however was to the fanbase itself. It's so weird seeing BW die-hards (who belittled WC3 or RA or AOE in their time) now look at other BW fans scornfully and say that it's time to accept reality: BW is dead. The truth doesn't make a hurtful statement any less hurtful. All these blows to the community have left it bloodied, bruised, and angry. Sometimes it lashes out. Oftentimes, the SC2 community feels the sting of having BW fans run the full gamut of criticism against their beloved SC2.

But this doesn't make me ashamed, only sad. BW is dying. The BW community is bleeding. You could somewhat say that the intent of the community itself is never malicious, but its communal mind is now impaired by all the damage done in so short a period that it sometimes acts in a hurtful way. Does it exonerate the BW community? In my mind, no. But it mitigates the act done. It lowers the level of malice involved. It makes me want to just comfort the BW community, and if the best way to comfort the BW community is to leave it alone in its bitterness and grief, then so be it.

I'm part of that community although I do enjoy SC2 as well. As 2pac stated:

"Sure, BW fans are angry and bitter that the professional BW scene which they watched and loved for last ten years is gonna be no more. But we're mostly angry at the fact that it's not dying a natural death (loss of interest), but it's being killed by various, unnatural reasons (match fixing etc.). So while I'm not defending people who post stuff like that first comment you quoted, I'd just like you to realize where they're coming from."

That anger will wash over in time. Please don't compound on it by saying the community makes you shameful.

All this doesn't excuse the behavior of some BW fans who keep whining about and bashing SC2, but while moderating or judging them, take into account the fact that their own judgment is somewhat impaired. Passion does that. Current LRing in BW tourney forum is nothing like the old LRing by the veterans, the ones who made the BW community what it was, and still is (sometimes). So continue to understand, and maybe help sometimes by making the LR better, be it by modding it or contributing to it. But not like this, not like this.