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On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote:How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence: The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over. What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning. edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes. edit2:Moletrap w/ Nukes: + Show Spoiler +
are you kidding me? you post a video of moletrap? a caster that got bullied by the entire community that he had to quit his job and go cast LoL? yeah find a 2nd video like that i dare you.
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On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote:
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
That's an old video from the first Dota 2 live event, he's gotten a lot better about that
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I disagree that DotA is more intuitive to understand than SC2 to a non-gamer. SC2 is just a war game. Two players make armies and they fight. That is simple. People understand the concept of war and they have experienced something of the sort in chess. SC2 requires no explanation on the superficial level. Non-gamers find LoL and DotA harder to understand because those games have far more artificial constructs than a war game like SC2.
That aside, none of the games at DH will inspire a large non-gamer following on TV. Perhaps, with time, we will see certain games gaining niche followings, but these games are way too hard to call right now due to the myriad of factors, including commentary quality, production quality, pacing of action, simplicity of mechanics and more.
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On June 14 2012 11:37 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote:
How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence:
The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over.
What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes. Dota2 in one sentence: Destroy the building on the opposite side of the map that belongs to the opposing team. Same thing applies except even more simple.
Oh, I wasn't saying that DotA2 is difficult to explain in a simple way. It too is very simple to explain at a base level and your description actually works for SC2 as well. It's just the idea presented in the OP was that explaining SC2 to your grandma would be difficult is wrong or at least the same for both games. At the basic level, the games are the same.
It's the details of how they go about accomplishing the basic goal where the games differ greatly. And I think there are many elements to DotA2 that are a lot weaker than SC2 for viewers, and even a few elements where LoL is superior for viewers (kill your own allied units?!? It is a strategic option that allows for more skill, but it doesn't pass the common sense test).
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I play video games and I have no idea what's going on in that video, what chance does my dad have? Games today have much better graphics but that has a downside in that it reduces visual clarity. I think bw is the most spectator friendly esport although nowadays people would get turned off by the graphics before watching a battle, but the units stand out clearly and the picture is very bright.
sc2 does a relatively good job but the clumping of the units and cartoony and dark graphics make it difficult to watch during maxed battles. Same goes for dota2, its way too dark.
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What a great caster!
But that does not change at all how I feel about Dota2^^.
To each it`s own.
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Yup. Agree whole-heartedly with this post. If there were 3 games on TV and they were LoL, Dota2 and SC2, even though I personally prefer SC2, I would put on LoL if my friends were around.
In fact, I actually watched MLG on my TV with a buddy of mine. We watched LoL for a large portion and it was obvious he was more engaged in LoL than when I had SC2 on. I was too, come to think of it. The BIGGEST thing that SC2 is missing is not balance or better gameplay, it's better, more EXCITING, casting. Could you imagine if in the Stanley Cup Finals people were casting going "And at this point, it's 6-1 for the LA Kings in the third period and I don't see a way that New Jersey can come back. This is gonna be the end of the game. *Buzzer* Yup. And that's it. LA takes their first franchise cup." Because that's honestly how SC2 sounds to me 80% of the time. Now, if we, every game, heard people casting like TobiWanKenobi, it would be a different story.
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On June 14 2012 11:49 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote:How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence: The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over. What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning. edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes. edit2:Moletrap w/ Nukes: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncdu5OFGJOk are you kidding me? you post a video of moletrap? a caster that got bullied by the entire community that he had to quit his job and go cast LoL? yeah find a 2nd video like that i dare you.
A minority portion of the SC2 community is extremely vocal about bullying every single caster out there. Every caster either doesn't have enough passion and/or knowledge or some other deficiency in someone's eyes and they'll scream it from the mountain top. Tobiwan would not get by the SC2 community unscathed either.
I did put the "w/ nukes" next to Moletrap for a reason. If he showed as much excitement in SC2 on a more regular basis as he did in that video, his casting would have been received a lot more positively. Of course, someone made a video to highlight and make fun of his girly scream in that video. Sometimes you just can't win.
But if your primary point was that Tobiwan shows passion and that's a good thing, you'd be correct. More SC2 casters should show that sort of excitement too and quit worrying so much about knowing every strategy, predicting the future, and getting every word right.
edit:The difference between announcers 0:22-0:42 (also why Americans don't enjoy soccer):
http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/simpsons-explain-soccer/LX4RzIMfZsf03GZpqLs1Bw
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On June 14 2012 11:53 L3gendary wrote:
I play video games and I have no idea what's going on in that video, what chance does my dad have? Games today have much better graphics but that has a downside in that it reduces visual clarity. I think bw is the most spectator friendly esport although nowadays people would get turned off by the graphics before watching a battle, but the units stand out clearly and the picture is very bright.
sc2 does a relatively good job but the clumping of the units and cartoony and dark graphics make it difficult to watch during maxed battles. Same goes for dota2, its way too dark. Totally agree. Modern effects look impressive, but they can make it really hard to see what's going on. I'd be curious to know the impact of nice graphics on drawing viewers, it might be less than people think.
As for whether MOBAs or RTSs are more viewer friendly, I've got to go with RTSs. I've explained SC2 to my non-video-game playing father without too much difficulty... he can follow the battles, understands the importance of getting up buildings and bases without a problem. Also, I learned BW from watching youtube videos before I ever played, and did the same with SC2 during the beta. On the other hand, I've played about 10 hours of LoL, and watched LoL during MLGs, and I still have no clue what is going on. There's just so much to know in terms of items and hero abilities.
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I think SC and SC2 are more like Tennis than Chess. Chess doesn't have executional requirements or split second timings.
I see Mobas as more similar to smaller team sports such as Basketball or Hockey. Team sports are usually more popular to spectate and I think overtime Mobas like Dota2 and LoL will edge out 1v1 games. That's my theory at least.
+ Show Spoiler +LoL already has more stream viewers than SC2 at major events.
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the only problem is the farm periods. SO boring then
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On June 14 2012 10:35 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote:
MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch. It's interesting that you would say that. What would be a good spectator sport in your opinion? Doesn't Starcraft suffer from the same problem? large amount of farming = macro in the beginning. Games are dragged on because they don't want to commit to fight at the other person's static defense?
I get so confused watching MobA games like LoL and DotA (I'm a HoN player though). I understand the roles and everything but I have no idea whats going on in any of the fights because I know none of the abilities. I have no ability to predict the winner of a battle at all because I have no idea what the heroes are capable of. However you can look at armies in SC2 and have a reasonable idea which is stronger by size alone. You can understand what is going on because most units just shoot at the enemy instead of unleashing a variety of shiny spells that a spectator may or may not even know who it is helping or hurting. That's why I feel like SC2 will always be a better spectator sport for people outside of the playerbase.
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"DotA isnt a chess game like sc2. It is no kinder garden with boobs like LoL. DotA is WAR."
All you have done here is make me want to play LOL. But only if there is boobs. If there is no boobs then I dont want to play.
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I never got into MobA games. Right before the SC2 finals of IPL3, they showed LoL or DotA or something for like an hour or two straight. And it was like... two games. I tried to follow it but fell asleep because it was so boring. The only thing I enjoyed were some of the people's names... LoCicero or something was my favorite... so much so that I smile when I see him streaming on the TL sidebar.
Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
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On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I never got into MobA games. Right before the SC2 finals of IPL3, they showed LoL or DotA or something for like an hour or two straight. And it was like... two games. I tried to follow it but fell asleep because it was so boring. The only thing I enjoyed were some of the people's names... LoCicero or something was my favorite... so much so that I smile when I see him streaming on the TL sidebar.
Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
it was LoL... and what made it boring is the casters, not the game (imo). Try watching DotA2 at dreamhack this weekend and let me know your thoughts.
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On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
It is pretty much controlling only one character. Some characters can have minions that can be micro'd in both Dota2, HoN, and LoL.
The skill comes from execution, priorities, spacing, timings, reactions, positioning, and coordination. There's resource management, though less complex than RTS, due to gold, experience points, and resource bars. There's map control and awareness, due to fog of war. There is terrain that you have to play around that can create choke points or surrounds. You can flank an enemy team and take advantage of the resulting mispositioning (You don't lead your a-move charges with Sentries, do you?). There are map objectives to fight over to prevent mindless base turtling.
There are team compositions to consider because different archetypes have different game periods where they're strong (Early, Mid, Late). There's draft pick so opponents won't let you pick the same teams repeatedly if they don't want you to. There are counters ranging from soft to hard.
A lot of this knowledge is needed beforehand to understand but there are some casters who take the time to explain things.
The best way to know who has the lead when you don't know things about the game is to look at the kill/death scores as well as the creep farm. Some games also display the accumulated gold differences so you can see who is economically ahead.
More highlights!
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 14 2012 13:49 silencefc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play. It is pretty much controlling only one character. Some characters can have minions that can be micro'd in both Dota2, HoN, and LoL. The skill comes from execution, priorities, spacing, timings, reactions, positioning, and coordination. There's resource management, though less complex than RTS, due to gold, experience points, and resource bars. There's map control and awareness, due to fog of war. There is terrain that you have to play around that can create choke points or surrounds. You can flank an enemy team and take advantage of the resulting mispositioning (You don't lead your a-move charges with Sentries, do you?). There are map objectives to fight over to prevent mindless base turtling. There are team compositions to consider because different archetypes have different game periods where they're strong (Early, Mid, Late). There's draft pick so opponents won't let you pick the same teams repeatedly if they don't want you to. There are counters ranging from soft to hard. A lot of this knowledge is needed beforehand to understand but there are some casters who take the time to explain things. The best way to know who has the lead when you don't know things about the game is to look at the kill/death scores as well as the creep farm. Some games also display the accumulated gold differences so you can see who is economically ahead. More highlights! + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1b_aouslhk
Thanks for that general explanation. It helps a lot 
On June 14 2012 13:35 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I never got into MobA games. Right before the SC2 finals of IPL3, they showed LoL or DotA or something for like an hour or two straight. And it was like... two games. I tried to follow it but fell asleep because it was so boring. The only thing I enjoyed were some of the people's names... LoCicero or something was my favorite... so much so that I smile when I see him streaming on the TL sidebar.
Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play. it was LoL... and what made it boring is the casters, not the game (imo). Try watching DotA2 at dreamhack this weekend and let me know your thoughts.
I'll see if I have the time If I do, then I will ^^
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I loved BW for the korean commentators since the first time I saw laggy restreams in 240p or probably even worse. I enjoy playing League because it's a fun game.
DotA 2 and Tobis casting are the only things that get even remotely close to that korean level. So much fun to watch and so many spots to be amazed at. <3
I'd watch pro DotA over pro League any day of the week.
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On June 14 2012 10:35 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote:
MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch. It's interesting that you would say that. What would be a good spectator sport in your opinion? Doesn't Starcraft suffer from the same problem? large amount of farming = macro in the beginning. Games are dragged on because they don't want to commit to fight at the other person's static defense?
well in sc2 there is usually just red and blue, plus the races are often distinct enough that a casual observer can recognize them. The colors are bright and the lingo that the casters use is a lot simpler and easier to understand then the build or objectives in MOBAs. Although it really depends on the viewer; each person interprets things differently.
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EPT
