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On June 14 2012 12:43 silencefc wrote:I think SC and SC2 are more like Tennis than Chess. Chess doesn't have executional requirements or split second timings. I see Mobas as more similar to smaller team sports such as Basketball or Hockey. Team sports are usually more popular to spectate and I think overtime Mobas like Dota2 and LoL will edge out 1v1 games. That's my theory at least. + Show Spoiler +LoL already has more stream viewers than SC2 at major events.
I believe that this will die down somewhat. It certainly is easier to pick up on LoL than sc2, but the thing is that sc2 has a metagame that is constantly shifting while LoL has a really stale metagame. The matches past the 20 minute mark are typically very predictable as well. So when all these fresh viewers start to tap into starcraft and other complex games (at least compared to LoL) the viewers will be less frequent for it. Just the opinions of a stupid person though.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O9Z5v.gif)
Rooting for mTw and EG.
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If anything Dota2 has a far superior sound design where everything is crisp and distinct, something BW had but SC2 doesn't.
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I agree that Dota 2 is a godly spectator sport, but I think it's just a different cup of tea than SC2, not superior. Sort of like how even though I can't stand Baseball, some of my friends obsess over it, etc
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I don't play any MOBAs at all... and though I've tried to watch LoL and DoTA at various times, they just don't make sense to me as a new viewer. I get the concept that the team that has "farmed" more money should be stronger... but they never end up looking any stronger, because the animation and images stay the same all game. I don't have any specific knowledge of skills, so an "ultimate" doesn't appear any different to me than a regular flashy skill. It's never aparent to me that one side won, or should have won a battle. It's never clear why someone runs away, and I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for to see the "teamwork" or "strategy" elements of the game.
Turn that against starcraft II;
Anyone can see "oh, red was running around with those dudes with guns before. Now he has Tanks! Red just got a lot stronger!" or "Oh damn, those tanks can't shoot flying things, so if he leaves those alone, the bat things that blue has will kill him!" and the ever apparent "wow, blue has a lot more shit than red (where shit is army/bases/color on the minimap) - he's probably going to win this!"
I think both games have a lot to do if they want casting to become enjoyable for a TV viewer, but I think MOBA games (which have more pre requisite knowledge) have a much longer way to go than SCII. And I think they players, as far as being "nerds" vs "celebrities" have the furthest to go of all.
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I'm surprised some people are making the case that Dota 2 is as viewerfriendly as SC2, no way. I actually play dota 2 and have a decent grasp of most heroes etc, but I still find it very hard to spectate. While I can see if a lane is being lost, nice ganks etc, teamfights become a complete clusterfuck if you don't know the abilities of the heroes (while in SC2, a big fight is pretty easy to get a good overview of since units usually only do one basic thing, while in dota 2 heroes do very different things which can matter a lot, such as a clutch mekanasm activation, BKB activation, a key stun etc).
I must say, if people should tune in to a game when they are running on SVT, it's definitely Starcraft 2. If they like it, dota 2 would be a great next step to see the diversity in esport.
EDIT: I also think Tobi is overrated. He obviously has a lot of passion, but his accent together with his way of talking is IMO extremely hard to make out, so he doesn't help you understand what is happening at all. I easily prefer Purges calm explanations over Tobis australian (i assume) screaming.
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On June 14 2012 16:10 phyre112 wrote:
I don't play any MOBAs at all... and though I've tried to watch LoL and DoTA at various times, they just don't make sense to me as a new viewer. I get the concept that the team that has "farmed" more money should be stronger... but they never end up looking any stronger, because the animation and images stay the same all game. I don't have any specific knowledge of skills, so an "ultimate" doesn't appear any different to me than a regular flashy skill. It's never aparent to me that one side won, or should have won a battle. It's never clear why someone runs away, and I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for to see the "teamwork" or "strategy" elements of the game.
Turn that against starcraft II;
Anyone can see "oh, red was running around with those dudes with guns before. Now he has Tanks! Red just got a lot stronger!" or "Oh damn, those tanks can't shoot flying things, so if he leaves those alone, the bat things that blue has will kill him!" and the ever apparent "wow, blue has a lot more shit than red (where shit is army/bases/color on the minimap) - he's probably going to win this!"
I think both games have a lot to do if they want casting to become enjoyable for a TV viewer, but I think MOBA games (which have more pre requisite knowledge) have a much longer way to go than SCII. And I think they players, as far as being "nerds" vs "celebrities" have the furthest to go of all.
that is a very interesting idea: showing heroes/champions progression via visual effect. There are a few balance aspect that could cause small issue if we apply this to the current dota2 but i think i will try to post this on dev forum smhow.
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Haha. The new Pulsefire Ezreal skin in LoL changes as he levels up.
+ Show Spoiler +
Items having an effect on champion/hero skins would be pretty cool but it's a lot of modeling work.
Getting stronger in Moba's are no different than an army having 3-3 upgrades against an army with 0-0. LoL's spectator client also continuously shows all 10 champion items so you can see who is further ahead in terms of item builds.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I gotta disagree, I played Dota (only vs computer as a scrub) and I find Dota impossible to watch, but thats mainly cause I don't know enough about it, I'm sure if I got to know it I could follow the battles, and Tobi is supposed to be an awesome commentators, but to me I found getting into SC2 piss easy via Husky and HD, that stuff just looks like a mess of flashing lights to the untrained. Plus I do think that the idea of SC2 is simpler than Dota, the 5v5 might be simple, but the battlefield, the last hiting, leveling up, ganks, creeping etc are not intuitive.
But, I'm sure you'll enjoy Dota this weekend, and that it'll be fun, I just disagree that it is easy for a newbie to watch 
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To you guys who haven't been much into MOBAs; I highly recommend you gain a rudimentary understanding to be able to spectate the upcoming International. I'm a fairly low skilled player, but I can follow the battles and the back and forths are just amazing.
You know how deathball games in SC2 suck, and how harassment filled, multipronged positional mindgames, long macro games are fun in SC2? Nearly all Dota games end up in the latter category; lots of harassment (ganks), map control battles (warding, positioning), and important battles that happen multiple times (usually 3-5 large teamfights). There's even the occasional cheese (push strat), but it doesn't feel cheesy and unfair as all-ins sometimes do. There's also an added element that SC2 doesn't have; epic teamwork plays. When you see 1 hero make a crazy skillshot to save his ally, or 2 allies synergizing their AoE at the exact correct moment, it's pretty cool.
There's a lot to be had in watching MOBAs, if you give it a chance. I do agree that Dota 2 has a higher barrier to entry, but since you guys are all gamers who play sc2, it shouldn't be too hard to breach.
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As someone not really interested in the MOBA scene, I guess I could add what I feel about them.
My one very big complaint is whats been mentioned before: the initial farming can be waaaayyyyyy too long and free from action. I've tried to watch both Dota2 and LoL, but when games can take upwards an hour, I want it to be constant action. But several times there seems to be a good 15-20min or more when theres barely anything happening at the start of a game. Sometimes there can also be periods of very low action midgame. And while I really would like to have enjoyed it (believe me I've tried) I just cant really get over the initial boredom of a lot of matches.
Theres other lesser complaints which have mostly been mentioned, mainly that games can drag on for quite some time even though theres a "clear" winner and that its quite hard know about all different abilities and heroes and what they do. But those issues are often present in other games too, and to me they pale in comparison to the initial boredom problem. I think reducing game time, reducing the initial farming phase time or in some other way increase fights or action per time would do great things to MOBAs viewability. I'd definitely be much more inclined to watch them at least.
This is also coming from someone who, while I definitely mainly watch SC2, have enjoyed a few other esports games such as a good CS match or even WoW back when people tried to do it as esport.
My 2 cents.
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I have tried to spectate MOBA games, tried playing them aswell, tried having friends explain it to me and so on, but I just cannot really get into them. They feel so slow and boring, games go on for ages (not that this is a bad thing, but having to deal with 15 or 20 minutes of only farming is painful). The other thing that puts me down from playing is the community, tried playing HoN and I just got insulted into oblivion because I was totally new to the genre.
I want to try dota and I want to understand it but I just can't, maybe I'm just not made for that type of game.
+ Show Spoiler +This is coming from somebody who used to play Quake 3, CS and BW almost religiously
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DotA is of the worst kind of game if you aren't playing it. The sheer amount of heroes, abilities and items will overwhelm any newcomer. We get that you are psyched but pretending DotA2 will kick anything but themselves is really foolish.
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Russian Federation138 Posts
I tried to watch Dota byTobi, but if you are not playing it you just cannot understand what is going on. You need to know the items and the heroes also some basic teamplay. As for Starcraft i saw the strategy unfold right from my 1st time seeing it, was very entertaining from the very 1st game
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I'm sorry. I just can't watch and enjoy Dota's. There is simply too much going on in a short space of time for casters to be able to explain it as it happens. For instace, the video you show, it just looks like a bunch of fireworks going off with a man shouting in the background. I don't know why people are doing what they are doing, I don't know the effect that each player is having, and I can't even understand what the caster is saying. I imagine it's entertaining for people "in the know" but I just simply don't get it.
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I got into Dota 2 when the last International happened, I have never played it, and I have to say I watch it far more than SC2 nowadays.
I was introduced by my friend who is actually really decent at DotA, and he could explain all the heroes, skills and items to me in the first few games I watched, but apart from that I just read up on stuff I didn't know on playdota.com and the Dota 2 Wiki. Tobi is now definitely my favourite eSports person to watch, and in my opinion the games are much more fun than SC2 once you get into it.
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On June 14 2012 18:50 Kreb wrote:
My one very big complaint is whats been mentioned before: the initial farming can be waaaayyyyyy too long and free from action.
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Theres other lesser complaints which have mostly been mentioned, mainly that games can drag on for quite some time even though theres a "clear" winner and that its quite hard know about all different abilities and heroes and what they do.
Talking strictly about Dota 2, I'm not sure what games you've seen, or if you've seen any games that didn't have Chinese teams in it, but there is pretty much no "initial farming" phase in the current metagame. There is almost always constant ganking, action, etc. I guess it could look sort of boring if you have 0 idea what is happening at all, but it's far from passive. Personally, the early game of Dota is a lot more interesting than early game of SC2, which currently is pretty much "everyone fast expands while my zealot attacks your 4 zerglings".
On your other point, games drag on and sometimes there is one completely without a doubt loser, but often times comebacks are possible, making it so that a long game isn't just a dragged out affair; it's tense and un-decided. The most basic example is when a midgame focused pusher strat faces off against a lategame focused team fight lineup. The former team might dominate like crazy for a while and you might think "kill count is 19-7, why are they still in this game, 15k gold difference". Then when the lategame team makes some big plays and brings out the win, it makes it all count better.
LoL isn't a complete game yet as far as I'm concerned; it's a bit unfair to lump LoL and Dota together if your complaints focus on passivity. Dota, at least in it's current metagame, is far from boring in that regard. Though I do agree that if you don't know what's going on, it's confusing and not worth it probably.
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On June 14 2012 21:08 Zealos wrote:
I'm sorry. I just can't watch and enjoy Dota's. There is simply too much going on in a short space of time for casters to be able to explain it as it happens. For instace, the video you show, it just looks like a bunch of fireworks going off with a man shouting in the background. I don't know why people are doing what they are doing, I don't know the effect that each player is having, and I can't even understand what the caster is saying. I imagine it's entertaining for people "in the know" but I just simply don't get it.
From a spectator point of view, if you think of most spells simply as "CC" (stun, slow, disable) it simplifies things a lot.
Taking that video, for example:
1. Green reaper guy gets swapped out of position. Sort of like a Viper abducting.
2. Red fish guy stuns.
3. Green tauren counter stuns.
4. Green wolfrider walks in to try and assist.
5. Red spirit-thing casts blackhole catching them both. That's the big play.
The reason why that moment is exciting is because the Red team forced an engagement with their swap (should be pretty visible that the green guy got swapped into a shitfest), and with their better positioning could win with the black hole (should be pretty visible that 2 green guys are getting sucked inwards while not moving).
It happens pretty fast, but no faster than a PvT lategame clash, I would say.
Though I guess having to explain the fight at all means it's too complicated xp just try playing!
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On June 14 2012 10:46 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote:
MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch. Totally disagree with you. I know bugger all about DotA but in LoL all I have to do is describe the 5 positions and the viewer is set. They don't need to know what specific champions do, all they need to know is that one is a mage, he goes in mid lane and deals a ton of damage. That one is a jungler, he gets less gold and runs around helping the other lanes whilst killing creeps. I've watched a few Tobi streams knowing very little about DotA and he always makes it clear which heroes are designed to carry at 40 mins and which ones are supporting early on. All I need to know from there is some of the huge team-fighting ults like Tidehunters and I'm set. The only thing he slips up on is when people complete major items and what that does for them, I understand Black King Bar is important but beyond that I don't know.
I agree with casualman.
Even if the caster spends that much time describing to someone who doesn't know anything about MOBAs, more experienced players will get bored easily.
And even if he explains a little bit, it doesn't give you full effect of understanding clutch plays and such.
For example, Zileas, from Riot explains of the biggest problems in MOBAs that they try to avoid. Even from a playing perspective, there are too many things to learn that you have no idea what's going on. He explains how one ultimate (I believe it's Bloodseeker's Rupture?) causes damage the more the enemy champion moves. If you're the enemy champion, how do you know that unless you have played as Axe or researched this? Worse, from a spectator standpoint all you would see is life draining from a champion and have no idea why. Then you see Bloodseeker kill the champion, and it's like "Ok, great." Worse, if you see the enemy champion stand there and attempt to fight, you think "what a dumb!$#" Or if the enemy champion pulls a clutch play and kills Bloodseeker by not moving, you don't get to fully understand how clutch that was.
Zileas describes a lot of these other issues here:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417
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On June 14 2012 16:10 phyre112 wrote:
I don't play any MOBAs at all... and though I've tried to watch LoL and DoTA at various times, they just don't make sense to me as a new viewer. I get the concept that the team that has "farmed" more money should be stronger... but they never end up looking any stronger, because the animation and images stay the same all game. I don't have any specific knowledge of skills, so an "ultimate" doesn't appear any different to me than a regular flashy skill. It's never aparent to me that one side won, or should have won a battle. It's never clear why someone runs away, and I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for to see the "teamwork" or "strategy" elements of the game.
Turn that against starcraft II;
Anyone can see "oh, red was running around with those dudes with guns before. Now he has Tanks! Red just got a lot stronger!" or "Oh damn, those tanks can't shoot flying things, so if he leaves those alone, the bat things that blue has will kill him!" and the ever apparent "wow, blue has a lot more shit than red (where shit is army/bases/color on the minimap) - he's probably going to win this!"
I think both games have a lot to do if they want casting to become enjoyable for a TV viewer, but I think MOBA games (which have more pre requisite knowledge) have a much longer way to go than SCII. And I think they players, as far as being "nerds" vs "celebrities" have the furthest to go of all.
But that is only because Dota is 5v5 and starcraft is 1v1. If you put on a commentator on a 1v1 dota game you would be able to grasp exactly everything going on but following 10 players actions is extremely hard. A noob friendly approach could be to have a caster just follow one hero around telling everyone what that hero does and when he isn't doing anything they can explain about his teammates roles.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PzAvrDAXbG8/T9juNxXtjYI/AAAAAAAACOg/DFPwFAY4TfU/s400/pfez.jpg)
