So DreamHack will now be on swedish national TV. This mean that not only you will be able to see Video games being played professionally from your couch. It also indicate that people with no gaming background, have never touched computer in their entire life, will be watching us gamers. It will be the first time they learn about gaming, they will learn what is starcraft, LoL, DotA and how are those game played.
Imagine having to explain sc2 to your grandmother who cant even perform a single mous click properly (i have been there). Imagine you hoping for people to love what you pursue and endorse in closet for years and it came out as just a bunch with social problems who play games for money and have no life. Trust me, you dont want that.
Here is what you gona do: Turn in and show them dota2 with this dude casting:
He will help you explaining to your dad that gaming is the new soccer by all the screaming in the top of his tounge which is full of excitement. He will help you to show your family that gaming isnt only about smashing buttons but also about calculation and mind games as well as team work. It is about fun, skill and passion.
DotA isnt a chess game like sc2. It is no kinder garden with boobs like LoL. DotA is WAR. It is a battle field where 5 warriors going against the other 5 and surround them is a crowd with excitement. These warriors want blood, gold and glory and will do everything to show the crowd their desires. If there is anything ever come close to the modern dota in the history of mankind, it could only be the Colosseum from the Roman Empire.
MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
It's interesting that you would say that. What would be a good spectator sport in your opinion? Doesn't Starcraft suffer from the same problem? large amount of farming = macro in the beginning. Games are dragged on because they don't want to commit to fight at the other person's static defense?
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
You realize you can say the exact same thing about sc2 right?
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
Totally disagree with you. I know bugger all about DotA but in LoL all I have to do is describe the 5 positions and the viewer is set. They don't need to know what specific champions do, all they need to know is that one is a mage, he goes in mid lane and deals a ton of damage. That one is a jungler, he gets less gold and runs around helping the other lanes whilst killing creeps.
I've watched a few Tobi streams knowing very little about DotA and he always makes it clear which heroes are designed to carry at 40 mins and which ones are supporting early on. All I need to know from there is some of the huge team-fighting ults like Tidehunters and I'm set. The only thing he slips up on is when people complete major items and what that does for them, I understand Black King Bar is important but beyond that I don't know.
Even if you don't know what each unit does in SC2, you can still see things like economy (worker count/number of bases), army size and movement. The commentating is much more new viewer friendly because even people who have never played an RTS can see that when a player's army is on the other side of the map from where they're being attacked, it's bad, etc.
In MOBAs, even once a new viewer understands the aspects of heroes, teams, and creeping, it's still a big blur to watch. I've played DotA, HoN, and LoL, but watching the video in the OP is just random nonsense to me, and will continue to be until I play the game myself.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
that to me is a big misconception. Look at sc2 the biggest esports game right now as an example: A lot of people i know watch the game, subscribe to GSL MLG etc without even owning a copy of sc2. 90% of reddit community has never reach above platinum but they still enjoy the game to the fullest extend.
The ultimate goal of a game when it transitioning to esports should be easy to 'enjoy' when watching, not easy to 'learn' when watching. Its the same theory applying to movies now aday: shitty movies like Transformer or Avatar are dominating the market simply bc they have top nouch computer effect instead of good writings. People will enjoy games with more action, explosion than just a boring macro starcraft where 2 side just sit and wait for the final battle.
Now this is where DotA come in play. All games has their own moments of excitement but it up to the caster to make it exciting. Lets take a look at a normal BW casting in Korea:
As you can see and compare it to modern sc2 casting right now, there is almost 0 emotion in any sc2 casters when they see a great moment. Everyone try to make the game sounds too predictable and the game became boring to watch. DotA2 currently is blessed with TobiWan Kenobi, the best play by play caster in esports atm and he will put up a hell of a show in the up coming dreamhack. Just wait and see!
Okay, I'm a sort of a gamer, granted I don't like or really understand Moba's (leveling, team games and single unit micro don't appeal) but that aside having watched the video I've no idea what he's talking about or what I'm watching. Looks like LoL with more effects poorer although less cartoony character models and without the procession of npc smurfs marching towards each other. As I understand it Nani wouldn't be atypical for a MOBA players in terms of attitude etc. I can't see it being any more popular with anyone who doesn't play the things... thats presumably why the give them away for free..
How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence:
The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over.
What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote: How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence:
The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over.
What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
Dota2 in one sentence: Destroy the building on the opposite side of the map that belongs to the opposing team. Same thing applies except even more simple.
I think it is great Dota is continuing to grow. I also doubt that it is in anyway comparable to SC2 Coming from BW background when I first watched Dota I thought it was 1v1 and each player was controlling every unit including creep (fairly standard ability for pro bw players). Needless to say I was disappointing to find out that each player only controls one character. I think the skill set and strategy of dota is very different to starcraft and one I find hard to understand. Still I hope it can become starcraft's team based esport brother-in-arms.
On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote: How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence:
The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over.
What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
are you kidding me? you post a video of moletrap? a caster that got bullied by the entire community that he had to quit his job and go cast LoL? yeah find a 2nd video like that i dare you.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
That's an old video from the first Dota 2 live event, he's gotten a lot better about that
I disagree that DotA is more intuitive to understand than SC2 to a non-gamer. SC2 is just a war game. Two players make armies and they fight. That is simple. People understand the concept of war and they have experienced something of the sort in chess. SC2 requires no explanation on the superficial level. Non-gamers find LoL and DotA harder to understand because those games have far more artificial constructs than a war game like SC2.
That aside, none of the games at DH will inspire a large non-gamer following on TV. Perhaps, with time, we will see certain games gaining niche followings, but these games are way too hard to call right now due to the myriad of factors, including commentary quality, production quality, pacing of action, simplicity of mechanics and more.
On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote: How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence:
The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over.
What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
Dota2 in one sentence: Destroy the building on the opposite side of the map that belongs to the opposing team. Same thing applies except even more simple.
Oh, I wasn't saying that DotA2 is difficult to explain in a simple way. It too is very simple to explain at a base level and your description actually works for SC2 as well. It's just the idea presented in the OP was that explaining SC2 to your grandma would be difficult is wrong or at least the same for both games. At the basic level, the games are the same.
It's the details of how they go about accomplishing the basic goal where the games differ greatly. And I think there are many elements to DotA2 that are a lot weaker than SC2 for viewers, and even a few elements where LoL is superior for viewers (kill your own allied units?!? It is a strategic option that allows for more skill, but it doesn't pass the common sense test).
I play video games and I have no idea what's going on in that video, what chance does my dad have? Games today have much better graphics but that has a downside in that it reduces visual clarity. I think bw is the most spectator friendly esport although nowadays people would get turned off by the graphics before watching a battle, but the units stand out clearly and the picture is very bright.
sc2 does a relatively good job but the clumping of the units and cartoony and dark graphics make it difficult to watch during maxed battles. Same goes for dota2, its way too dark.
Yup. Agree whole-heartedly with this post. If there were 3 games on TV and they were LoL, Dota2 and SC2, even though I personally prefer SC2, I would put on LoL if my friends were around.
In fact, I actually watched MLG on my TV with a buddy of mine. We watched LoL for a large portion and it was obvious he was more engaged in LoL than when I had SC2 on. I was too, come to think of it. The BIGGEST thing that SC2 is missing is not balance or better gameplay, it's better, more EXCITING, casting. Could you imagine if in the Stanley Cup Finals people were casting going "And at this point, it's 6-1 for the LA Kings in the third period and I don't see a way that New Jersey can come back. This is gonna be the end of the game. *Buzzer* Yup. And that's it. LA takes their first franchise cup." Because that's honestly how SC2 sounds to me 80% of the time. Now, if we, every game, heard people casting like TobiWanKenobi, it would be a different story.
On June 14 2012 11:22 RenSC2 wrote: How to explain SC2 to your friends in two sentence:
The two differing colored opponents try to build up armies and destroy each other. When one has been wiped out or concedes defeat, the game is over.
What is so difficult about that? As your friends get into the game, then you can start talking about specific units, strategies, and all the other complexities that make the game so great. You don't need to pull out the multi-hundred page rulebook for baseball or football to enjoy them and even most hardcore fans don't know all the rules. Just keep things simple to start and let their curiousity guide their learning.
edit: Watched the video with Tobiwan for the first time. They really needed to adjust sound levels. Getting audio warnings in game coming as loud as the announcer is not good. As a SC2 and LoL fan, I was pretty lost as to what was going on other than it being a teamfight with a whole mess of flashing lights and numbers all over the screen. I'd actually put it on the highly confusing side... LoL visual effects tend to be more clear. Tobi had good energy though, so I could see why people would like him. Kind of like a Husky or a Moletrap w/ nukes.
are you kidding me? you post a video of moletrap? a caster that got bullied by the entire community that he had to quit his job and go cast LoL? yeah find a 2nd video like that i dare you.
A minority portion of the SC2 community is extremely vocal about bullying every single caster out there. Every caster either doesn't have enough passion and/or knowledge or some other deficiency in someone's eyes and they'll scream it from the mountain top. Tobiwan would not get by the SC2 community unscathed either.
I did put the "w/ nukes" next to Moletrap for a reason. If he showed as much excitement in SC2 on a more regular basis as he did in that video, his casting would have been received a lot more positively. Of course, someone made a video to highlight and make fun of his girly scream in that video. Sometimes you just can't win.
But if your primary point was that Tobiwan shows passion and that's a good thing, you'd be correct. More SC2 casters should show that sort of excitement too and quit worrying so much about knowing every strategy, predicting the future, and getting every word right.
On June 14 2012 11:53 L3gendary wrote: I play video games and I have no idea what's going on in that video, what chance does my dad have? Games today have much better graphics but that has a downside in that it reduces visual clarity. I think bw is the most spectator friendly esport although nowadays people would get turned off by the graphics before watching a battle, but the units stand out clearly and the picture is very bright.
sc2 does a relatively good job but the clumping of the units and cartoony and dark graphics make it difficult to watch during maxed battles. Same goes for dota2, its way too dark.
Totally agree. Modern effects look impressive, but they can make it really hard to see what's going on. I'd be curious to know the impact of nice graphics on drawing viewers, it might be less than people think.
As for whether MOBAs or RTSs are more viewer friendly, I've got to go with RTSs. I've explained SC2 to my non-video-game playing father without too much difficulty... he can follow the battles, understands the importance of getting up buildings and bases without a problem. Also, I learned BW from watching youtube videos before I ever played, and did the same with SC2 during the beta. On the other hand, I've played about 10 hours of LoL, and watched LoL during MLGs, and I still have no clue what is going on. There's just so much to know in terms of items and hero abilities.
I think SC and SC2 are more like Tennis than Chess. Chess doesn't have executional requirements or split second timings.
I see Mobas as more similar to smaller team sports such as Basketball or Hockey. Team sports are usually more popular to spectate and I think overtime Mobas like Dota2 and LoL will edge out 1v1 games. That's my theory at least.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
It's interesting that you would say that. What would be a good spectator sport in your opinion? Doesn't Starcraft suffer from the same problem? large amount of farming = macro in the beginning. Games are dragged on because they don't want to commit to fight at the other person's static defense?
I get so confused watching MobA games like LoL and DotA (I'm a HoN player though). I understand the roles and everything but I have no idea whats going on in any of the fights because I know none of the abilities. I have no ability to predict the winner of a battle at all because I have no idea what the heroes are capable of. However you can look at armies in SC2 and have a reasonable idea which is stronger by size alone. You can understand what is going on because most units just shoot at the enemy instead of unleashing a variety of shiny spells that a spectator may or may not even know who it is helping or hurting. That's why I feel like SC2 will always be a better spectator sport for people outside of the playerbase.
"DotA isnt a chess game like sc2. It is no kinder garden with boobs like LoL. DotA is WAR." All you have done here is make me want to play LOL. But only if there is boobs. If there is no boobs then I dont want to play.
I never got into MobA games. Right before the SC2 finals of IPL3, they showed LoL or DotA or something for like an hour or two straight. And it was like... two games. I tried to follow it but fell asleep because it was so boring. The only thing I enjoyed were some of the people's names... LoCicero or something was my favorite... so much so that I smile when I see him streaming on the TL sidebar.
Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I never got into MobA games. Right before the SC2 finals of IPL3, they showed LoL or DotA or something for like an hour or two straight. And it was like... two games. I tried to follow it but fell asleep because it was so boring. The only thing I enjoyed were some of the people's names... LoCicero or something was my favorite... so much so that I smile when I see him streaming on the TL sidebar.
Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
it was LoL... and what made it boring is the casters, not the game (imo). Try watching DotA2 at dreamhack this weekend and let me know your thoughts.
On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
It is pretty much controlling only one character. Some characters can have minions that can be micro'd in both Dota2, HoN, and LoL.
The skill comes from execution, priorities, spacing, timings, reactions, positioning, and coordination. There's resource management, though less complex than RTS, due to gold, experience points, and resource bars. There's map control and awareness, due to fog of war. There is terrain that you have to play around that can create choke points or surrounds. You can flank an enemy team and take advantage of the resulting mispositioning (You don't lead your a-move charges with Sentries, do you?). There are map objectives to fight over to prevent mindless base turtling.
There are team compositions to consider because different archetypes have different game periods where they're strong (Early, Mid, Late). There's draft pick so opponents won't let you pick the same teams repeatedly if they don't want you to. There are counters ranging from soft to hard.
A lot of this knowledge is needed beforehand to understand but there are some casters who take the time to explain things.
The best way to know who has the lead when you don't know things about the game is to look at the kill/death scores as well as the creep farm. Some games also display the accumulated gold differences so you can see who is economically ahead.
On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
It is pretty much controlling only one character. Some characters can have minions that can be micro'd in both Dota2, HoN, and LoL.
The skill comes from execution, priorities, spacing, timings, reactions, positioning, and coordination. There's resource management, though less complex than RTS, due to gold, experience points, and resource bars. There's map control and awareness, due to fog of war. There is terrain that you have to play around that can create choke points or surrounds. You can flank an enemy team and take advantage of the resulting mispositioning (You don't lead your a-move charges with Sentries, do you?). There are map objectives to fight over to prevent mindless base turtling.
There are team compositions to consider because different archetypes have different game periods where they're strong (Early, Mid, Late). There's draft pick so opponents won't let you pick the same teams repeatedly if they don't want you to. There are counters ranging from soft to hard.
A lot of this knowledge is needed beforehand to understand but there are some casters who take the time to explain things.
The best way to know who has the lead when you don't know things about the game is to look at the kill/death scores as well as the creep farm. Some games also display the accumulated gold differences so you can see who is economically ahead.
On June 14 2012 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I never got into MobA games. Right before the SC2 finals of IPL3, they showed LoL or DotA or something for like an hour or two straight. And it was like... two games. I tried to follow it but fell asleep because it was so boring. The only thing I enjoyed were some of the people's names... LoCicero or something was my favorite... so much so that I smile when I see him streaming on the TL sidebar.
Do you really just control like... one character? So it's like a party of Diablo characters playing against another party of Diablo characters? I've watched featured clips and stuff but I still don't understand where the skill comes in to play.
it was LoL... and what made it boring is the casters, not the game (imo). Try watching DotA2 at dreamhack this weekend and let me know your thoughts.
I'll see if I have the time If I do, then I will ^^
I loved BW for the korean commentators since the first time I saw laggy restreams in 240p or probably even worse. I enjoy playing League because it's a fun game.
DotA 2 and Tobis casting are the only things that get even remotely close to that korean level. So much fun to watch and so many spots to be amazed at. <3
I'd watch pro DotA over pro League any day of the week.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
It's interesting that you would say that. What would be a good spectator sport in your opinion? Doesn't Starcraft suffer from the same problem? large amount of farming = macro in the beginning. Games are dragged on because they don't want to commit to fight at the other person's static defense?
well in sc2 there is usually just red and blue, plus the races are often distinct enough that a casual observer can recognize them. The colors are bright and the lingo that the casters use is a lot simpler and easier to understand then the build or objectives in MOBAs. Although it really depends on the viewer; each person interprets things differently.
On June 14 2012 12:43 silencefc wrote: I think SC and SC2 are more like Tennis than Chess. Chess doesn't have executional requirements or split second timings.
I see Mobas as more similar to smaller team sports such as Basketball or Hockey. Team sports are usually more popular to spectate and I think overtime Mobas like Dota2 and LoL will edge out 1v1 games. That's my theory at least.
LoL already has more stream viewers than SC2 at major events.
I believe that this will die down somewhat. It certainly is easier to pick up on LoL than sc2, but the thing is that sc2 has a metagame that is constantly shifting while LoL has a really stale metagame. The matches past the 20 minute mark are typically very predictable as well. So when all these fresh viewers start to tap into starcraft and other complex games (at least compared to LoL) the viewers will be less frequent for it. Just the opinions of a stupid person though.
I agree that Dota 2 is a godly spectator sport, but I think it's just a different cup of tea than SC2, not superior. Sort of like how even though I can't stand Baseball, some of my friends obsess over it, etc
I don't play any MOBAs at all... and though I've tried to watch LoL and DoTA at various times, they just don't make sense to me as a new viewer. I get the concept that the team that has "farmed" more money should be stronger... but they never end up looking any stronger, because the animation and images stay the same all game. I don't have any specific knowledge of skills, so an "ultimate" doesn't appear any different to me than a regular flashy skill. It's never aparent to me that one side won, or should have won a battle. It's never clear why someone runs away, and I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for to see the "teamwork" or "strategy" elements of the game.
Turn that against starcraft II;
Anyone can see "oh, red was running around with those dudes with guns before. Now he has Tanks! Red just got a lot stronger!" or "Oh damn, those tanks can't shoot flying things, so if he leaves those alone, the bat things that blue has will kill him!" and the ever apparent "wow, blue has a lot more shit than red (where shit is army/bases/color on the minimap) - he's probably going to win this!"
I think both games have a lot to do if they want casting to become enjoyable for a TV viewer, but I think MOBA games (which have more pre requisite knowledge) have a much longer way to go than SCII. And I think they players, as far as being "nerds" vs "celebrities" have the furthest to go of all.
I'm surprised some people are making the case that Dota 2 is as viewerfriendly as SC2, no way. I actually play dota 2 and have a decent grasp of most heroes etc, but I still find it very hard to spectate. While I can see if a lane is being lost, nice ganks etc, teamfights become a complete clusterfuck if you don't know the abilities of the heroes (while in SC2, a big fight is pretty easy to get a good overview of since units usually only do one basic thing, while in dota 2 heroes do very different things which can matter a lot, such as a clutch mekanasm activation, BKB activation, a key stun etc).
I must say, if people should tune in to a game when they are running on SVT, it's definitely Starcraft 2. If they like it, dota 2 would be a great next step to see the diversity in esport.
EDIT: I also think Tobi is overrated. He obviously has a lot of passion, but his accent together with his way of talking is IMO extremely hard to make out, so he doesn't help you understand what is happening at all. I easily prefer Purges calm explanations over Tobis australian (i assume) screaming.
On June 14 2012 16:10 phyre112 wrote: I don't play any MOBAs at all... and though I've tried to watch LoL and DoTA at various times, they just don't make sense to me as a new viewer. I get the concept that the team that has "farmed" more money should be stronger... but they never end up looking any stronger, because the animation and images stay the same all game. I don't have any specific knowledge of skills, so an "ultimate" doesn't appear any different to me than a regular flashy skill. It's never aparent to me that one side won, or should have won a battle. It's never clear why someone runs away, and I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for to see the "teamwork" or "strategy" elements of the game.
Turn that against starcraft II;
Anyone can see "oh, red was running around with those dudes with guns before. Now he has Tanks! Red just got a lot stronger!" or "Oh damn, those tanks can't shoot flying things, so if he leaves those alone, the bat things that blue has will kill him!" and the ever apparent "wow, blue has a lot more shit than red (where shit is army/bases/color on the minimap) - he's probably going to win this!"
I think both games have a lot to do if they want casting to become enjoyable for a TV viewer, but I think MOBA games (which have more pre requisite knowledge) have a much longer way to go than SCII. And I think they players, as far as being "nerds" vs "celebrities" have the furthest to go of all.
that is a very interesting idea: showing heroes/champions progression via visual effect. There are a few balance aspect that could cause small issue if we apply this to the current dota2 but i think i will try to post this on dev forum smhow.
Haha. The new Pulsefire Ezreal skin in LoL changes as he levels up. + Show Spoiler +
Items having an effect on champion/hero skins would be pretty cool but it's a lot of modeling work.
Getting stronger in Moba's are no different than an army having 3-3 upgrades against an army with 0-0. LoL's spectator client also continuously shows all 10 champion items so you can see who is further ahead in terms of item builds.
I gotta disagree, I played Dota (only vs computer as a scrub) and I find Dota impossible to watch, but thats mainly cause I don't know enough about it, I'm sure if I got to know it I could follow the battles, and Tobi is supposed to be an awesome commentators, but to me I found getting into SC2 piss easy via Husky and HD, that stuff just looks like a mess of flashing lights to the untrained. Plus I do think that the idea of SC2 is simpler than Dota, the 5v5 might be simple, but the battlefield, the last hiting, leveling up, ganks, creeping etc are not intuitive. But, I'm sure you'll enjoy Dota this weekend, and that it'll be fun, I just disagree that it is easy for a newbie to watch
To you guys who haven't been much into MOBAs; I highly recommend you gain a rudimentary understanding to be able to spectate the upcoming International. I'm a fairly low skilled player, but I can follow the battles and the back and forths are just amazing.
You know how deathball games in SC2 suck, and how harassment filled, multipronged positional mindgames, long macro games are fun in SC2? Nearly all Dota games end up in the latter category; lots of harassment (ganks), map control battles (warding, positioning), and important battles that happen multiple times (usually 3-5 large teamfights). There's even the occasional cheese (push strat), but it doesn't feel cheesy and unfair as all-ins sometimes do. There's also an added element that SC2 doesn't have; epic teamwork plays. When you see 1 hero make a crazy skillshot to save his ally, or 2 allies synergizing their AoE at the exact correct moment, it's pretty cool.
There's a lot to be had in watching MOBAs, if you give it a chance. I do agree that Dota 2 has a higher barrier to entry, but since you guys are all gamers who play sc2, it shouldn't be too hard to breach.
As someone not really interested in the MOBA scene, I guess I could add what I feel about them.
My one very big complaint is whats been mentioned before: the initial farming can be waaaayyyyyy too long and free from action. I've tried to watch both Dota2 and LoL, but when games can take upwards an hour, I want it to be constant action. But several times there seems to be a good 15-20min or more when theres barely anything happening at the start of a game. Sometimes there can also be periods of very low action midgame. And while I really would like to have enjoyed it (believe me I've tried) I just cant really get over the initial boredom of a lot of matches.
Theres other lesser complaints which have mostly been mentioned, mainly that games can drag on for quite some time even though theres a "clear" winner and that its quite hard know about all different abilities and heroes and what they do. But those issues are often present in other games too, and to me they pale in comparison to the initial boredom problem. I think reducing game time, reducing the initial farming phase time or in some other way increase fights or action per time would do great things to MOBAs viewability. I'd definitely be much more inclined to watch them at least.
This is also coming from someone who, while I definitely mainly watch SC2, have enjoyed a few other esports games such as a good CS match or even WoW back when people tried to do it as esport.
I have tried to spectate MOBA games, tried playing them aswell, tried having friends explain it to me and so on, but I just cannot really get into them. They feel so slow and boring, games go on for ages (not that this is a bad thing, but having to deal with 15 or 20 minutes of only farming is painful). The other thing that puts me down from playing is the community, tried playing HoN and I just got insulted into oblivion because I was totally new to the genre.
I want to try dota and I want to understand it but I just can't, maybe I'm just not made for that type of game.
DotA is of the worst kind of game if you aren't playing it. The sheer amount of heroes, abilities and items will overwhelm any newcomer. We get that you are psyched but pretending DotA2 will kick anything but themselves is really foolish.
I tried to watch Dota byTobi, but if you are not playing it you just cannot understand what is going on. You need to know the items and the heroes also some basic teamplay. As for Starcraft i saw the strategy unfold right from my 1st time seeing it, was very entertaining from the very 1st game
I'm sorry. I just can't watch and enjoy Dota's. There is simply too much going on in a short space of time for casters to be able to explain it as it happens. For instace, the video you show, it just looks like a bunch of fireworks going off with a man shouting in the background. I don't know why people are doing what they are doing, I don't know the effect that each player is having, and I can't even understand what the caster is saying. I imagine it's entertaining for people "in the know" but I just simply don't get it.
I got into Dota 2 when the last International happened, I have never played it, and I have to say I watch it far more than SC2 nowadays. I was introduced by my friend who is actually really decent at DotA, and he could explain all the heroes, skills and items to me in the first few games I watched, but apart from that I just read up on stuff I didn't know on playdota.com and the Dota 2 Wiki. Tobi is now definitely my favourite eSports person to watch, and in my opinion the games are much more fun than SC2 once you get into it.
On June 14 2012 18:50 Kreb wrote: My one very big complaint is whats been mentioned before: the initial farming can be waaaayyyyyy too long and free from action. ------------------------- Theres other lesser complaints which have mostly been mentioned, mainly that games can drag on for quite some time even though theres a "clear" winner and that its quite hard know about all different abilities and heroes and what they do.
Talking strictly about Dota 2, I'm not sure what games you've seen, or if you've seen any games that didn't have Chinese teams in it, but there is pretty much no "initial farming" phase in the current metagame. There is almost always constant ganking, action, etc. I guess it could look sort of boring if you have 0 idea what is happening at all, but it's far from passive. Personally, the early game of Dota is a lot more interesting than early game of SC2, which currently is pretty much "everyone fast expands while my zealot attacks your 4 zerglings".
On your other point, games drag on and sometimes there is one completely without a doubt loser, but often times comebacks are possible, making it so that a long game isn't just a dragged out affair; it's tense and un-decided. The most basic example is when a midgame focused pusher strat faces off against a lategame focused team fight lineup. The former team might dominate like crazy for a while and you might think "kill count is 19-7, why are they still in this game, 15k gold difference". Then when the lategame team makes some big plays and brings out the win, it makes it all count better.
LoL isn't a complete game yet as far as I'm concerned; it's a bit unfair to lump LoL and Dota together if your complaints focus on passivity. Dota, at least in it's current metagame, is far from boring in that regard. Though I do agree that if you don't know what's going on, it's confusing and not worth it probably.
On June 14 2012 21:08 Zealos wrote: I'm sorry. I just can't watch and enjoy Dota's. There is simply too much going on in a short space of time for casters to be able to explain it as it happens. For instace, the video you show, it just looks like a bunch of fireworks going off with a man shouting in the background. I don't know why people are doing what they are doing, I don't know the effect that each player is having, and I can't even understand what the caster is saying. I imagine it's entertaining for people "in the know" but I just simply don't get it.
From a spectator point of view, if you think of most spells simply as "CC" (stun, slow, disable) it simplifies things a lot.
Taking that video, for example:
1. Green reaper guy gets swapped out of position. Sort of like a Viper abducting. 2. Red fish guy stuns. 3. Green tauren counter stuns. 4. Green wolfrider walks in to try and assist. 5. Red spirit-thing casts blackhole catching them both. That's the big play.
The reason why that moment is exciting is because the Red team forced an engagement with their swap (should be pretty visible that the green guy got swapped into a shitfest), and with their better positioning could win with the black hole (should be pretty visible that 2 green guys are getting sucked inwards while not moving).
It happens pretty fast, but no faster than a PvT lategame clash, I would say.
Though I guess having to explain the fight at all means it's too complicated xp just try playing!
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
Totally disagree with you. I know bugger all about DotA but in LoL all I have to do is describe the 5 positions and the viewer is set. They don't need to know what specific champions do, all they need to know is that one is a mage, he goes in mid lane and deals a ton of damage. That one is a jungler, he gets less gold and runs around helping the other lanes whilst killing creeps.
I've watched a few Tobi streams knowing very little about DotA and he always makes it clear which heroes are designed to carry at 40 mins and which ones are supporting early on. All I need to know from there is some of the huge team-fighting ults like Tidehunters and I'm set. The only thing he slips up on is when people complete major items and what that does for them, I understand Black King Bar is important but beyond that I don't know.
I agree with casualman.
Even if the caster spends that much time describing to someone who doesn't know anything about MOBAs, more experienced players will get bored easily.
And even if he explains a little bit, it doesn't give you full effect of understanding clutch plays and such.
For example, Zileas, from Riot explains of the biggest problems in MOBAs that they try to avoid. Even from a playing perspective, there are too many things to learn that you have no idea what's going on. He explains how one ultimate (I believe it's Bloodseeker's Rupture?) causes damage the more the enemy champion moves. If you're the enemy champion, how do you know that unless you have played as Axe or researched this? Worse, from a spectator standpoint all you would see is life draining from a champion and have no idea why. Then you see Bloodseeker kill the champion, and it's like "Ok, great." Worse, if you see the enemy champion stand there and attempt to fight, you think "what a dumb!$#" Or if the enemy champion pulls a clutch play and kills Bloodseeker by not moving, you don't get to fully understand how clutch that was.
On June 14 2012 16:10 phyre112 wrote: I don't play any MOBAs at all... and though I've tried to watch LoL and DoTA at various times, they just don't make sense to me as a new viewer. I get the concept that the team that has "farmed" more money should be stronger... but they never end up looking any stronger, because the animation and images stay the same all game. I don't have any specific knowledge of skills, so an "ultimate" doesn't appear any different to me than a regular flashy skill. It's never aparent to me that one side won, or should have won a battle. It's never clear why someone runs away, and I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for to see the "teamwork" or "strategy" elements of the game.
Turn that against starcraft II;
Anyone can see "oh, red was running around with those dudes with guns before. Now he has Tanks! Red just got a lot stronger!" or "Oh damn, those tanks can't shoot flying things, so if he leaves those alone, the bat things that blue has will kill him!" and the ever apparent "wow, blue has a lot more shit than red (where shit is army/bases/color on the minimap) - he's probably going to win this!"
I think both games have a lot to do if they want casting to become enjoyable for a TV viewer, but I think MOBA games (which have more pre requisite knowledge) have a much longer way to go than SCII. And I think they players, as far as being "nerds" vs "celebrities" have the furthest to go of all.
But that is only because Dota is 5v5 and starcraft is 1v1. If you put on a commentator on a 1v1 dota game you would be able to grasp exactly everything going on but following 10 players actions is extremely hard. A noob friendly approach could be to have a caster just follow one hero around telling everyone what that hero does and when he isn't doing anything they can explain about his teammates roles.
On June 14 2012 10:47 G_G wrote: Even if you don't know what each unit does in SC2, you can still see things like economy (worker count/number of bases), army size and movement. The commentating is much more new viewer friendly because even people who have never played an RTS can see that when a player's army is on the other side of the map from where they're being attacked, it's bad, etc.
In MOBAs, even once a new viewer understands the aspects of heroes, teams, and creeping, it's still a big blur to watch. I've played DotA, HoN, and LoL, but watching the video in the OP is just random nonsense to me, and will continue to be until I play the game myself.
This is a terrible argument. Every game is like this. To many, SC2 is a complete wash to watch because of all of the effects + the fact that it isn't necessarily intuitive who's ahead based purely on number of units, number of workers, number of resources, etc. It's significantly more complicated than that. Others find DotA more confusing because of all of the special effects on screen (a problem that SC2 also suffers from at times). Hell, even normal sports suffer from this. Watching EURO 2012 with my g/f over the weekend, she had no clue what was going on. I had to explain why players were doing or not doing certain things, what offsides is, what is considered a foul, and this happens in other sports too (American football, basketball, etc). It happens in any competitive event, except maybe fighting games.
On June 14 2012 18:50 Kreb wrote: My one very big complaint is whats been mentioned before: the initial farming can be waaaayyyyyy too long and free from action. ------------------------- Theres other lesser complaints which have mostly been mentioned, mainly that games can drag on for quite some time even though theres a "clear" winner and that its quite hard know about all different abilities and heroes and what they do.
Talking strictly about Dota 2, I'm not sure what games you've seen, or if you've seen any games that didn't have Chinese teams in it, but there is pretty much no "initial farming" phase in the current metagame. There is almost always constant ganking, action, etc. I guess it could look sort of boring if you have 0 idea what is happening at all, but it's far from passive. Personally, the early game of Dota is a lot more interesting than early game of SC2, which currently is pretty much "everyone fast expands while my zealot attacks your 4 zerglings".
Admittedly I dont watch random Dota2 shows, so my experience comes from major tournies/LANs which run multiple games where I often tune in to several games to check them out. If theres been some huge metagame shifts, I might have missed them.
That said, the "constant ganking" you refer to isnt really that interesting in the grand scheme of things. Using SC2 analogy, it seems like its about as interesting as a conc shells marauder tagging a stalker and killing it in the early game. Sure, it matters and it gives commentators something to talk about, but in the grand scheme of things that stalker wont matter that much. And those random ganks seem to be somewhat similar. You're probably gonna argue about how important those things are, and maybe my analogy was bad in your opinion, but you can in no way argue them to be game defining in any way.
And I agree the SC2 openings arent that interesting. But thats the big thing. You get out of the "boring opening stage" of most games in a good 8-9min gametime (which is like what, 6-7real minutes something?), then interesting things starts to happen. Things that really matter. In dota (and LoL), that phase seem to be 15-20min, or sometimes even longer (dota minutes are real minutes, right?). And that I do think is a huge problem and I know many people agree with me.
And yes, I know there are long and boring macro games in SC2 too, but those tend to be less common than their counterpart in MOBAs from what I see. Not enough to see them turning into a huge point of concern at least, if you read about what people dont like about SC2.
Not really looking into arguing about whats more enjoyable or the other, just explaining the reason why I never got captured by a MOBA yet. Its entirely subjective. Maybe someones gonna voice the same complaint to someone else who actually can influence how these games are made, and maybe some day some company will attempt to do something about them. Who knows?
Edit: A point about game time too. I really think its a somewhat psychological thing too. I think generally its much better to have a 20min game with a 7.5min boring buildup time than a 40min game with 15min boring buildup. Having to sit through extra long buildup, even if you could argue its more interesting time towards the end (that is, if you can actually make sure those last 25min actually are exciting, which is a challenge in itself), is likely going to deter a lot of people from watching.
On June 14 2012 21:08 Zealos wrote: I'm sorry. I just can't watch and enjoy Dota's. There is simply too much going on in a short space of time for casters to be able to explain it as it happens. For instace, the video you show, it just looks like a bunch of fireworks going off with a man shouting in the background. I don't know why people are doing what they are doing, I don't know the effect that each player is having, and I can't even understand what the caster is saying. I imagine it's entertaining for people "in the know" but I just simply don't get it.
From a spectator point of view, if you think of most spells simply as "CC" (stun, slow, disable) it simplifies things a lot.
Taking that video, for example:
1. Green reaper guy gets swapped out of position. Sort of like a Viper abducting. 2. Red fish guy stuns. 3. Green tauren counter stuns. 4. Green wolfrider walks in to try and assist. 5. Red spirit-thing casts blackhole catching them both. That's the big play.
The reason why that moment is exciting is because the Red team forced an engagement with their swap (should be pretty visible that the green guy got swapped into a shitfest), and with their better positioning could win with the black hole (should be pretty visible that 2 green guys are getting sucked inwards while not moving).
It happens pretty fast, but no faster than a PvT lategame clash, I would say.
Though I guess having to explain the fight at all means it's too complicated xp just try playing!
Cheers, I mean, I try to watch it sometimes, but its all very loud and flashy for my tastes. The thing I find with stuff like pvt, is there is enough time when you can see the fight coming, for the casters to explain what is going to happen, instead of trying to get through everything at once while it happens.
In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
On June 14 2012 22:44 Kreb wrote: That said, the "constant ganking" you refer to isnt really that interesting in the grand scheme of things. Using SC2 analogy, it seems like its about as interesting as a conc shells marauder tagging a stalker and killing it in the early game. Sure, it matters and it gives commentators something to talk about, but in the grand scheme of things that stalker wont matter that much. And those random ganks seem to be somewhat similar. You're probably gonna argue about how important those things are, and maybe my analogy was bad in your opinion, but you can in no way argue them to be game defining in any way.
Killing the opponents carry is about as meaningful as killing half the workers at an expansion with a drop and then getting away safely. You lose both gold when you are killed and you lose the gold you would have farmed instead of waiting for a respawn, each death is a 1-3 minutes setback in his farm depending on how early/late it is. Then we haven't even mentioned that your own team gets large gold and experience rewards for killing that hero.
To understand dota from a starcraft perspective you can think of the creeps as expansion places. If you aren't by the front lines you aren't having any income which is lethal, if someone is pushed from the lane it is like chasing away all his workers, if you do that for a minute it sets back his entire game a minute.
So in essence if you think that killing off expansions and such is interesting in starcraft then you should think that those ganks are interesting in dota. The biggest difference here is that in dota you don't win when you wipe the enemy team like you do in starcraft, instead you need to push down the enemy base which takes quite a while if you aren't overwhelmingly stronger.
On June 14 2012 23:32 Iranon wrote: In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
What's the difference between starcraft and redalert?
On June 14 2012 23:32 Iranon wrote: In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
What's the difference between starcraft and redalert?
Strategic depth? I don't know anything about C&C, but I imagine that's the reason only one of those games is taken seriously.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
You realize you can say the exact same thing about sc2 right?
No, you really cannot, sorry.
In starcraft 2, a tank shot looks like a tank...thats doing a shot and baneling looks like a walking bomb exploding acid on marines and them dying.
In MOBA games, there is no way for a casual watcher to tell one blue beam of light from the other blue beam of light or how they are different from the red beam of light.
In starcraft 2 , you see a base with buildings and turrets set around(pretty self explanatory), and then a flying ship with units in flies into a turret and gets shot down. and that's what people who understand the game see as well.
In MOBA, you see the elf thing, surrounded by other random things, get flashy for a minute and its red bar goes lower. and then the elf thing is suddenly next to the horse thing and the massive horse thing looks like it hits the tiny elf but then the little elf looks like it exploded and the horse thing is now not there. And only people who understand the game know that Curkin used Beam Of Deception on the level 4 Kurass and it took double DoT allowing Jun to DPS it down.
Please don't tell me you can't tell this difference.
On June 14 2012 23:32 Iranon wrote: In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
What's the difference between starcraft and redalert?
Strategic depth? I don't know anything about C&C, but I imagine that's the reason only one of those games is taken seriously.
The point is that two games can be radically different even if they are from the same genre. The mechanics in the C&C series just doesn't provide as deep multiplayer games as Starcraft does. Now Dota and LoL are more alike than Starcraft and C&C but dota is still a deeper and more varied game, as it is all pro LoL players basically play in the same way. AD carry + support bot lane, AP carry mid, a roaming jungler and a good solo top. If you don't play this way you will not win the fights by the dragon, and getting the dragon kills is vital since each kill sets your entire team more than a minute ahead in terms of farm. If you look at dota games however people will do all sorts of strange things since there are no extremely rewarding monsters like the dragon there. In starcraft terms imagine if they dropped a thousand minerals in the middle of the map for anyone to pick up every five minutes. It would force a lot of fights which could be fun but it would also remove most strategies which don't depend on picking up that box.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
You realize you can say the exact same thing about sc2 right?
No, you really cannot, sorry.
In starcraft 2, a tank shot looks like a tank...thats doing a shot and baneling looks like a walking bomb exploding acid on marines and them dying.
In MOBA games, there is no way for a casual watcher to tell one blue beam of light from the other blue beam of light or how they are different from the red beam of light.
In starcraft 2 , you see a base with buildings and turrets set around(pretty self explanatory), and then a flying ship with units in flies into a turret and gets shot down. and that's what people who understand the game see as well.
In MOBA, you see the elf thing, surrounded by other random things, get flashy for a minute and its red bar goes lower. and then the elf thing is suddenly next to the horse thing and the massive horse thing looks like it hits the tiny elf but then the little elf looks like it exploded and the horse thing is now not there. And only people who understand the game know that Curkin used Beam Of Deception on the level 4 Kurass and it took double DoT allowing Jun to DPS it down.
Please don't tell me you can't tell this difference.
No, you are wrong on that. People see the elf thing and the horse thing clashing, then they see that the elf thing wins since he is the one alive afterwards and thus conclude that the elf was stronger. It is the same as when they see siegetanks and immortals clashing and afterwards they see that the immortals won. They don't have any clue of the underlying mechanics to why the immortals beat siegetanks, they only see that one units win. Also how would the noob spectator know that there is units in the dropship? I mean, they don't even know what a dropship is.
On June 14 2012 23:32 Iranon wrote: In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
What's the difference between starcraft and redalert?
Strategic depth? I don't know anything about C&C, but I imagine that's the reason only one of those games is taken seriously.
The point is that two games can be radically different even if they are from the same genre. The mechanics in the C&C series just doesn't provide as deep multiplayer games as Starcraft does. Now Dota and LoL are more alike that Starcraft and C&C but dota is still a deeper and more varied game, as it is all pro LoL players basically play in the same way. AD carry + support bot lane, AP carry mid, a roaming jungler and a good solo top. If you don't play this way you will not win the fights by the dragon, and getting the dragon kills is vital since each kill sets your entire team more than a minute ahead in terms of farm. If you look at dota games however people will do all sorts of strange things since there are no extremely rewarding monsters like the dragon there. In starcraft terms imagine if they dropped a thousand minerals in the middle of the map for anyone to pick up every five minutes. It would force a lot of fights which could be fun but it would also remove most strategies which don't depend on picking up that box.
Quoting my gf to the question "Hey, when it comes to LoL / SC2 / DotA 2 streams you saw, which would you watch again and why?"
"DotA. It looks like armies marching across a river trying to kill each other and everything looks dangerous and scary and anything can happen at any time."
"League has a child-like flair, it's all colorful and cuddly and even the creeps are cute, it's like watching a huge bowl of sweets doing stuff."
"SC2 is probably cool if you're into that strategy stuff but I don't enjoy watching chess either."
On June 14 2012 23:32 Iranon wrote: In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
What's the difference between starcraft and redalert?
Strategic depth? I don't know anything about C&C, but I imagine that's the reason only one of those games is taken seriously.
The point is that two games can be radically different even if they are from the same genre. The mechanics in the C&C series just doesn't provide as deep multiplayer games as Starcraft does. Now Dota and LoL are more alike than Starcraft and C&C but dota is still a deeper and more varied game, as it is all pro LoL players basically play in the same way. AD carry + support bot lane, AP carry mid, a roaming jungler and a good solo top. If you don't play this way you will not win the fights by the dragon, and getting the dragon kills is vital since each kill sets your entire team more than a minute ahead in terms of farm. If you look at dota games however people will do all sorts of strange things since there are no extremely rewarding monsters like the dragon there. In starcraft terms imagine if they dropped a thousand minerals in the middle of the map for anyone to pick up every five minutes. It would force a lot of fights which could be fun but it would also remove most strategies which don't depend on picking up that box.
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
You realize you can say the exact same thing about sc2 right?
No, you really cannot, sorry.
In starcraft 2, a tank shot looks like a tank...thats doing a shot and baneling looks like a walking bomb exploding acid on marines and them dying.
In MOBA games, there is no way for a casual watcher to tell one blue beam of light from the other blue beam of light or how they are different from the red beam of light.
In starcraft 2 , you see a base with buildings and turrets set around(pretty self explanatory), and then a flying ship with units in flies into a turret and gets shot down. and that's what people who understand the game see as well.
In MOBA, you see the elf thing, surrounded by other random things, get flashy for a minute and its red bar goes lower. and then the elf thing is suddenly next to the horse thing and the massive horse thing looks like it hits the tiny elf but then the little elf looks like it exploded and the horse thing is now not there. And only people who understand the game know that Curkin used Beam Of Deception on the level 4 Kurass and it took double DoT allowing Jun to DPS it down.
Please don't tell me you can't tell this difference.
No, you are wrong on that. People see the elf thing and the horse thing clashing, then they see that the elf thing wins since he is the one alive afterwards and thus conclude that the elf was stronger. It is the same as when they see siegetanks and immortals clashing and afterwards they see that the immortals won. They don't have any clue of the underlying mechanics to why the immortals beat siegetanks, they only see that one units win. Also how would the noob spectator know that there is units in the dropship? I mean, they don't even know what a dropship is.
No. I've watched DotA/lol before and I can assure you that it makes zero sense to me. As for the dropship, they know that it has units in because they can see units in it, they can see units come out of it, and the casters say it has units in. The fact is that OVERALL sc2 is far more watchable for new people. 2 Armies fight. Bigger army usually wins. If it doesn't, you see the electrical storm on the infantry before they explode and it still just simply MAKES SENSE. There is no marine doing more damage than a thor and there's no zergling that beats a stalker 1 on 1.
Sc2 is inherently FAR more easy to understand on that level because its basically based on the real world mechanics. Fire burn, acid melt, electricity fry, bullets damage, Tank shells explode, etc. MOBA is red light DoT, Yellow light from small green guy medium AoE, wolf blue streak Ensare if orange Man has rainbow circle around him, etc. A tiny dwarf guy will just suddenly kill a massive demon for no apparent reason to the average onlooker.
I don't see how you can argue against this... sc2 = real time, generally scaled damage, generally realistic considering what is on screen and uses mostly real world things and dynamics. Moba games are just a totally different realm...they almost might as well be trading card games when it comes to it.
On June 14 2012 23:32 Iranon wrote: In all seriousness, what's the difference between LoL and Dota? I've never watched either one, nor do I ever really intend to, but unless I'm very misinformed, they look the same. Two teams of a handful of little dudes, each with a handful of unique spells, running around on a map trying to take out the other team. Or the other team's base, or both, or something. Gameplay is focused around coordination/teamwork and micro. Is that about right?
What's the difference between starcraft and redalert?
Strategic depth? I don't know anything about C&C, but I imagine that's the reason only one of those games is taken seriously.
The point is that two games can be radically different even if they are from the same genre. The mechanics in the C&C series just doesn't provide as deep multiplayer games as Starcraft does. Now Dota and LoL are more alike than Starcraft and C&C but dota is still a deeper and more varied game, as it is all pro LoL players basically play in the same way. AD carry + support bot lane, AP carry mid, a roaming jungler and a good solo top. If you don't play this way you will not win the fights by the dragon, and getting the dragon kills is vital since each kill sets your entire team more than a minute ahead in terms of farm. If you look at dota games however people will do all sorts of strange things since there are no extremely rewarding monsters like the dragon there. In starcraft terms imagine if they dropped a thousand minerals in the middle of the map for anyone to pick up every five minutes. It would force a lot of fights which could be fun but it would also remove most strategies which don't depend on picking up that box.
On June 14 2012 23:47 EneMecH wrote:
On June 14 2012 10:36 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
You realize you can say the exact same thing about sc2 right?
No, you really cannot, sorry.
In starcraft 2, a tank shot looks like a tank...thats doing a shot and baneling looks like a walking bomb exploding acid on marines and them dying.
In MOBA games, there is no way for a casual watcher to tell one blue beam of light from the other blue beam of light or how they are different from the red beam of light.
In starcraft 2 , you see a base with buildings and turrets set around(pretty self explanatory), and then a flying ship with units in flies into a turret and gets shot down. and that's what people who understand the game see as well.
In MOBA, you see the elf thing, surrounded by other random things, get flashy for a minute and its red bar goes lower. and then the elf thing is suddenly next to the horse thing and the massive horse thing looks like it hits the tiny elf but then the little elf looks like it exploded and the horse thing is now not there. And only people who understand the game know that Curkin used Beam Of Deception on the level 4 Kurass and it took double DoT allowing Jun to DPS it down.
Please don't tell me you can't tell this difference.
No, you are wrong on that. People see the elf thing and the horse thing clashing, then they see that the elf thing wins since he is the one alive afterwards and thus conclude that the elf was stronger. It is the same as when they see siegetanks and immortals clashing and afterwards they see that the immortals won. They don't have any clue of the underlying mechanics to why the immortals beat siegetanks, they only see that one units win. Also how would the noob spectator know that there is units in the dropship? I mean, they don't even know what a dropship is.
No. I've watched DotA/lol before and I can assure you that it makes zero sense to me. As for the dropship, they know that it has units in because they can see units in it, they can see units come out of it, and the casters say it has units in. The fact is that OVERALL sc2 is far more watchable for new people. 2 Armies fight. Bigger army usually wins. If it doesn't, you see the electrical storm on the infantry before they explode and it still just simply MAKES SENSE.
Sc2 is inherently FAR more easy to understand on that level because its basically based on the real world mechanics. Fire burn, acid melt, electricity fry, bullets damage, Tank shells explode, etc. MOBA is red light DoT, Yellow light from small green guy medium AoE, wolf blue streak Ensare if orange Man has rainbow circle around him, etc.
The skills you talk about sounds more like lol than dota. Dota skills are usually really straightforward. Like magina, all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry that can teleport, he kills mana with his standard attacks, he is resistant to spells and his ultimate deals good damage on people low on mana. Or rahsta, he can hold your enemy with a rope, he can turn them into a frog for a while, he can shoot lightning to deal damage and he can place down a fuckton of wards that shoots at nearby enemies. Very clear on what happens. I think that you are biased since you are used to starcraft but not used to dota.
Also if you accept dropships with units in them then you need to accept items. Like if earthskaer bought a blink dagger so he can teleport the commentator can say that. The noob viewer will understand that having the ability to teleport is really important and can then see during the game how that ability helps the earthshaker kill people. Anyone who have played any form of RPG will have no more problem watching dota than watching starcraft (Unless of course they are like you and have a lot more experience with starcraft than dota).
"all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry that can teleport, he kills mana with his standard attacks, he is resistant to spells and his ultimate deals good damage on people low on mana"
Did you read that back to yourself? "melee carry" Carry?. "he kills mana with his standard attacks" Standard attacks? Mana? Resistant to spells? Ultimate? Low on mana? All of those need in-depth explanations and I still don't understand what it is or how it affects the game. and unless the blink dagger is an item that is clear to notice in the hands of whatever person you're talking about and then you can see how it is used to do whatever it accomplishes as opposed to not having a blink dagger, then you can't compare it to seeing marines dissapear into a ship and then the ship's empty boxes fill up and you can see 8 marines in the UI and then you see 8 marines fall out of the ship and shoot.
AND I DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW WHO THAT MOBA CHARACTER IS OR HOW TO TELL HIM APART OR TRACK HIS MOVEMENTS FROM EVERYTHING ELSE Somebody trying to make Moba simple:
"all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry (moba term) that can teleport, he kills mana (we don't know how this affects the game or how to see the affects) with his standard attacks (explain?), he is resistant to spells (spells? Resistant to them makes what affect?) and his ultimate (ultimate?) deals good damage on people (meaning any of the strange things on screen?) low on mana (which we see how?)"
Somebody trying to make sc2 simple:
"all you need to know about the siegetank is that it gets in position then blows up enemies" (which is literally what it does... you'll see the tanks get in position and then shoot and then other stuff dies.)
No more in-depth understanding than that is needed to watch.
On June 15 2012 01:29 EneMecH wrote: "all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry that can teleport, he kills mana with his standard attacks, he is resistant to spells and his ultimate deals good damage on people low on mana"
Did you read that back to yourself? "melee carry" Carry?. "he kills mana with his standard attacks" Standard attacks? Mana? Resistant to spells? Ultimate? Low on mana? All of those need in-depth explanations and I still don't understand what it is or how it affects the game. and unless the blink dagger is an item that is clear to notice in the hands of whatever person you're talking about and then you can see how it is used to do whatever it accomplishes as opposed to not having a blink dagger, then you can't compare it to seeing marines dissapear into a ship and then the ship's empty boxes fill up and you can see 8 marines in the UI and then you see 8 marines fall out of the ship and shoot.
AND I DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW WHO THAT MOBA CHARACTER IS OR HOW TO TELL HIM APART OR TRACK HIS MOVEMENTS FROM EVERYTHING ELSE Somebody trying to make Moba simple:
"all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry (moba term) that can teleport, he kills mana (we don't know how this affects the game or how to see the affects) with his standard attacks (explain?), he is resistant to spells (spells? Resistant to them makes what affect?) and his ultimate (ultimate?) deals good damage on people (meaning any of the strange things on screen?) low on mana (which we see how?)"
Somebody trying to make sc2 simple:
"all you need to know about the siegetank is that it gets in position then blows up enemies" (which is literally what it does... you'll see the tanks get in position and then shoot and then other stuff dies.)
No more in-depth understanding than that is needed to watch.
But you miss out so much on that description as well, because siegetanks are artillery units and not tanks, with that description they would think that siegetanks are still liek real life tanks. Real life tanks aren't squishy, you'd rather that the enemy shoots at your tanks than your infantry but in starcraft that is reversed. Also how do you explain where all of these units are coming from? In any real life battle you never train soldiers or build anything, you use what you got. Also dropships never pick up marines. Marines just disappear under the dropship, they are never picked upp, and since there are many things on screen how would they be able to tell that this was what was important? Maybe they looked at the workers gathering minerals instead or the buildings producing troops? Most likely they missed the dropship completely since it doesn't really stand out that much, to them it could just have been an addon to a barrack or something. Starcraft isn't easy to read, your mind have just adapted to identify everything in it.
Now, I added a few extra things on magine. But the short and very good version is this: "This is magina, he can teleport and he is good at hitting people in the face", basically explains as much about magina as your description of the tank. I mean, you didn't mention what the tank is vulnerable against, that the tank can go into siegemode and how it changes when it goes into siegemode or anything about the unit at all. You just told them what they can already see, your sentence explains nothing at all. My short version of magina covers it better than your explanation of the tank.
ARTS will always appeal to spectators more than ERTS.
Mining and building isn't interesting (inherently, the mining and building leads to more interesting events than not mining and bulding, but who knows that besides us?), first blood and towers down before 3 minutes is.
DotA2 is a far more visceral spectator experience than SC2, and fightan games even more so. And as people have mentioned, a lot of excitement is up to the casters. And as people have mentioned again, you don't get more exciting than Tobi in English.
I played dota for several years and HoN for around 6-8 months and I can say that when I went back to watching hon/dota on a few streams, I could understand all of the older heroes but had little to no understanding of the new heroes that had come out. When someone with a ton of experience with MOBA's struggles to understand hero mechanics or abilities on a stream, I can't even imagine how a new viewer even begins to watch a MOBA type game.
This is why pudge will always be the best hero! Fun to play and pretty easy to understand as a spectator.
On June 15 2012 01:29 EneMecH wrote: "all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry that can teleport, he kills mana with his standard attacks, he is resistant to spells and his ultimate deals good damage on people low on mana"
Did you read that back to yourself? "melee carry" Carry?. "he kills mana with his standard attacks" Standard attacks? Mana? Resistant to spells? Ultimate? Low on mana? All of those need in-depth explanations and I still don't understand what it is or how it affects the game. and unless the blink dagger is an item that is clear to notice in the hands of whatever person you're talking about and then you can see how it is used to do whatever it accomplishes as opposed to not having a blink dagger, then you can't compare it to seeing marines dissapear into a ship and then the ship's empty boxes fill up and you can see 8 marines in the UI and then you see 8 marines fall out of the ship and shoot.
AND I DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW WHO THAT MOBA CHARACTER IS OR HOW TO TELL HIM APART OR TRACK HIS MOVEMENTS FROM EVERYTHING ELSE Somebody trying to make Moba simple:
"all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry (moba term) that can teleport, he kills mana (we don't know how this affects the game or how to see the affects) with his standard attacks (explain?), he is resistant to spells (spells? Resistant to them makes what affect?) and his ultimate (ultimate?) deals good damage on people (meaning any of the strange things on screen?) low on mana (which we see how?)"
Somebody trying to make sc2 simple:
"all you need to know about the siegetank is that it gets in position then blows up enemies" (which is literally what it does... you'll see the tanks get in position and then shoot and then other stuff dies.)
No more in-depth understanding than that is needed to watch.
All you really need to know about magina is he benefits a lot from getting gold, is hard to kill, and fucks up spell casters in particular.
I don't know why people overcomplicate these ARTS heroes when explaining to new players. Lycan summons wolves and moves fast. Lina has a lot of burst damage early on. Tinker teleports everywhere, spams spells, and pushes lanes. Engima has a stun and later can suck a bunch of heroes into a black hole. Syllabear has a bear which can carry items. Faceless void stops time in an area and benefits a lot from getting gold. Nature's prophet teleports wherever he pleases and pushes or ganks. Rhasta disables heroes and summons wards that shoot people or towers. Ursa kills one guy really fast. Vengeful spirit helps out team mates by swapping players and stunning. Pudge grabs people with his hook and chews their face off. Dazzle makes his team harder to kill and makes the other team take more damage. Sven stuns and hits like a truck. Queen of pain blinks in and unloads a lot of burst damage in an area. Morphling can create a copy of a hero and can switch between being hard to kill and doing a lot of damage. Earthshaker has a long range stun and can do a lot of damage when he's near a lot of enemies. Zeus does some burst damage and can hit heroes anywhere on the map with lightning. Juggernaut spins around and hits people with his sword.
Sure, these descriptions miss a lot of nuances that these heroes have, but so does your siege tank description. Some important details about siege tanks which you might leave out if you are explaining to new players are that they do friendly splash, they have a minimum range, and they range longer than they can see, so you usually want to have a spotter unit.
On June 15 2012 04:06 KingDime wrote: I played dota for several years and HoN for around 6-8 months and I can say that when I went back to watching hon/dota on a few streams, I could understand all of the older heroes but had little to no understanding of the new heroes that had come out. When someone with a ton of experience with MOBA's struggles to understand hero mechanics or abilities on a stream, I can't even imagine how a new viewer even begins to watch a MOBA type game.
This is why pudge will always be the best hero! Fun to play and pretty easy to understand as a spectator.
You don't need perfect understanding to be able to enjoy watching a game. Just to explain, I have never played HON or watched it before and have no clue of what the heroes do, but I still got the hang of most that happened in this game:
I don't know what the skills, I just see that there are particle effects going out and when hit the heroes takes a bit of damage/stops or something like that. Basically I can see when people die and what killed them. That is all that is needed for a viewer to be able to watch a game. You don't need to understand why they take as much damage as they do etc, in the same way as you don't need to know how to read notes to be able to enjoy music. It is about players that kills each other by hurling tons of shit in each others way. All the thing about the towers, the creeps, the exp, the gold etc, is just to give an incentive to go out and kill each other. The actual game is the killing, understanding why or how is not important unless you want to be good at the game.
On June 15 2012 00:00 r.Evo wrote: Quoting my gf to the question "Hey, when it comes to LoL / SC2 / DotA 2 streams you saw, which would you watch again and why?"
"DotA. It looks like armies marching across a river trying to kill each other and everything looks dangerous and scary and anything can happen at any time."
"League has a child-like flair, it's all colorful and cuddly and even the creeps are cute, it's like watching a huge bowl of sweets doing stuff."
"SC2 is probably cool if you're into that strategy stuff but I don't enjoy watching chess either."
I think you have to differentiate whether a person you are introducing a game to has general gaming experience or not. For example, my mother once asked me to explain StarCraft II to her (I was watching a tournament at the time) and I explained to her (in simple terms) the races, how the game works, I outlined the matchups, macro, micro etc. She didn't understand anything I explained to her, but she acknowledged that there is obviously something that can keep people watching the game, it's just nothing for her. I imagine that it is about the same with any game, that there will always exist a person who just "doesn't get it" and that this isn't necessarily anything wrong with the game, it's just that people who aren't "into games" aren't likely to pick it up (especially if they're in the age group where you don't learn things that easily anymore).
The same thing I just explained also holds true for DotA/Dota 2 - you aren't going to pick it up if you know nothing of MOBA games in general and you don't have someone to explain it to you.
However, let's say someone has played an RPG before: It's going to be much easier for that person to understand what's going on in Dota 2 since there are things like Mana, Attributes, Items, Leveling etc. that carry over 1:1 from RPGs to MOBA games. Again, the same applies for StarCraft II if someone has played some RTS games before: He's instinctively going to know what the workers do, that units have certain amounts of HP and that the players try to build armies to kill one another (remember, a new person who you introduce to games the first time has to learn all that!)
tl;dr: It depends very much on the background a new person is coming from whether they are going to understand a stream you are showing to them/a TV broadcast of a video game. It's not as simple as "This game is inherently more understandable than that one."
Being easier to understand doesn't make something a good or better spectator sport. That's just dumb. There's not even a large demographic for people who don't actually play the game and watch it. Sure, there's a few, but most everyone has tried it to some extent.
On June 15 2012 01:29 EneMecH wrote: "all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry that can teleport, he kills mana with his standard attacks, he is resistant to spells and his ultimate deals good damage on people low on mana"
Did you read that back to yourself? "melee carry" Carry?. "he kills mana with his standard attacks" Standard attacks? Mana? Resistant to spells? Ultimate? Low on mana? All of those need in-depth explanations and I still don't understand what it is or how it affects the game. and unless the blink dagger is an item that is clear to notice in the hands of whatever person you're talking about and then you can see how it is used to do whatever it accomplishes as opposed to not having a blink dagger, then you can't compare it to seeing marines dissapear into a ship and then the ship's empty boxes fill up and you can see 8 marines in the UI and then you see 8 marines fall out of the ship and shoot.
AND I DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW WHO THAT MOBA CHARACTER IS OR HOW TO TELL HIM APART OR TRACK HIS MOVEMENTS FROM EVERYTHING ELSE Somebody trying to make Moba simple:
"all you need to know to understand is that he is a melee carry (moba term) that can teleport, he kills mana (we don't know how this affects the game or how to see the affects) with his standard attacks (explain?), he is resistant to spells (spells? Resistant to them makes what affect?) and his ultimate (ultimate?) deals good damage on people (meaning any of the strange things on screen?) low on mana (which we see how?)"
Somebody trying to make sc2 simple:
"all you need to know about the siegetank is that it gets in position then blows up enemies" (which is literally what it does... you'll see the tanks get in position and then shoot and then other stuff dies.)
No more in-depth understanding than that is needed to watch.
But you miss out so much on that description as well, because siegetanks are artillery units and not tanks, with that description they would think that siegetanks are still liek real life tanks. Real life tanks aren't squishy, you'd rather that the enemy shoots at your tanks than your infantry but in starcraft that is reversed. Also how do you explain where all of these units are coming from? In any real life battle you never train soldiers or build anything, you use what you got. Also dropships never pick up marines. Marines just disappear under the dropship, they are never picked upp, and since there are many things on screen how would they be able to tell that this was what was important? Maybe they looked at the workers gathering minerals instead or the buildings producing troops? Most likely they missed the dropship completely since it doesn't really stand out that much, to them it could just have been an addon to a barrack or something. Starcraft isn't easy to read, your mind have just adapted to identify everything in it.
Now, I added a few extra things on magine. But the short and very good version is this: "This is magina, he can teleport and he is good at hitting people in the face", basically explains as much about magina as your description of the tank. I mean, you didn't mention what the tank is vulnerable against, that the tank can go into siegemode and how it changes when it goes into siegemode or anything about the unit at all. You just told them what they can already see, your sentence explains nothing at all. My short version of magina covers it better than your explanation of the tank.
No. just admit that you're wrong.
We were both describing what it takes just to BE ABLE TO PERCIEVE THE BATTLE in a way that makes sense. We're not talking about the mechanics or metagame... if I have to say the purpose of the tank and where it comes from, you have to say the metagame behind dota etc but neither of those are necessary. The fact is, as a gamer but not a MOBA player, when I look at the screen of a moba I see a mess of colors and nothing that makes sense. When I first looked at starcraft, I saw a big tank blow up an alien.
You could compare sc2 to MOBA when it comes to the ease of spectatorship if all sc2 units were respresented by random items (teapots, refridgerators) and were all random sizes and had random attacks that did random damage. It'd be the same game to advanced players but you'd have to KNOW what was going on just like you do with MOBA.
Let's face it, that's what Dota and LoL are. "Oh, clearly the little elf is doing 35 damage in an area because of his magical shoe, you should be able to tell that from looking at the screen duh and that's why the centaur turned into a blue grave."
Or for someone who plays games ALL THE TIME but hasn't played that specific MOBA and doesn't know what all the effectively random and irrelevant visuals mean. I don't see how you can still argue this. Alien shoot acid... the effect of which is the smaller human melts. MOBA is (random moving visual) does (random animation visual) that creates (whatever the affect is) which is represented by (random or obscure visual effect). but times that by 10 and have multiple random things doing multiple random things. A total fucking mess unless you play the game.
On June 15 2012 05:54 ToFu. wrote: i'm pretty sure there are vastly more gamers that have played either rpgs or moba games than those that have played a rts.
in that sense, it'd probably be easier to understand for a lot more people.
it's probably still really confusing to anybody who hasn't played games at all.
I love how everyone can be all like: "YEEEAHHH ALLL FOR ESPORTS!!!! GOGO ESPORTS!!!"
Until one of these threads comes up, then it's: "My game is da best and all other games are lame!!!!"
What's good for Lol, or Dota, or SC2, or BW is good for esports. If we really want the scene to grow, it's got to incorporate other games and even develope some cross game viewers.
I don't know that I'll actually watch any Dota 2, but maybe it's inclusion is popular, expands esports, which leads to the inclusion of other games that I will watch. So gogo dota2.
On June 15 2012 06:13 TheToast wrote: I love how everyone can be all like: "YEEEAHHH ALLL FOR ESPORTS!!!! GOGO ESPORTS!!!"
Until one of these threads comes up, then it's: "My game is da best and all other games are lame!!!!"
What's good for Lol, or Dota, or SC2, or BW is good for esports. If we really want the scene to grow, it's got to incorporate other games and even develope some cross game viewers.
I don't know that I'll actually watch any Dota 2, but maybe it's inclusion is popular, expands esports, which leads to the inclusion of other games that I will watch. So gogo dota2.
On June 15 2012 06:13 TheToast wrote: I love how everyone can be all like: "YEEEAHHH ALLL FOR ESPORTS!!!! GOGO ESPORTS!!!"
Until one of these threads comes up, then it's: "My game is da best and all other games are lame!!!!"
What's good for Lol, or Dota, or SC2, or BW is good for esports. If we really want the scene to grow, it's got to incorporate other games and even develope some cross game viewers.
I don't know that I'll actually watch any Dota 2, but maybe it's inclusion is popular, expands esports, which leads to the inclusion of other games that I will watch. So gogo dota2.
That doesn't mean people are inconsistent, that means there are different groups of people on TL with different priorities. Some are all "DONT HURT ESPORTS BRAH", and some are all "Man, Starcraft is a good game, we should play/analyze/watch it". Remember that Gheed blog from a few months ago? Making things "bigger" is not everyone's goal in this community.
On June 15 2012 07:12 EneMecH wrote: I never said Dota was lame I said its ridiculous to say its easier to watch if you're not familiar with the game.
did you test it out yourself? I tried it with people i know who have never played video games and are not familiar with computers and they are often attract to the media through out the types commentators who are casting the game.
For example: Day9/Apollo: who are GREAT analysis casters could explain the game into the very detail as well as predicting players action are often attract players who has already know about the game. Mean while, play-by-play casters are often attract new comers attentions more. Husky and Tasteless (back when he was casting gomtv classic) are great examples of this.
Now how to attract attention of people who has NEVER played video games before? Think about your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts and the majority of the generation where TV/newspaper is the main stream media that deliver to them the information they need. If you have to describe competitive gaming, the closest comparison you can get these days is sports. Soccer, football, baseball... etc. So if you ever watch sports, the way to make people excited about a game without knowing anything is mainly the excitement the commentators.
Try to take a kid to a stadium for example. It will be freaking boring to them if the entire stadium just stay still with occasionly cheering. However, if you have a lot of actions going on, the commentators screaming and the fans are going nuts, the kid obviously will go crazy all over those without even knowing what a score is.
This is why i make this blog. Currently i think TobiWan is the BEST play by play caster in the entire esports scene. With him being on TV? DotA2 will get more recognition than other games in non-gamer audience's eyes.
Its people like THIS that attract others attentions to what they love:
i dont get it... are you talking shit on Naniwa? Nani is a fckin badass, bro, don't be talking shit. if my friends or parents think that pro-gamers are "just a bunch with social problems who play games for money and have no life." i would laugh at them and ask them when was the last time they made 50K by doing something they love. and i don't see why they would think DOTA players are any different.
and now i watched the video: (keep in mind that this is constructive criticism not just blind shit talking, i have never seen a MOBA being played before this)
1) wtf is going on? who is on what team? wtf is all that stuff flying around? why is a "two for one trade" important and what does it mean?
2) i can't understand a word this guy is saying, "great bait"? what is a great bait? (like obviously it means the guy baited someone in or something and it was great but why was it great, how did he get baited, with what was he baited, and etc.)
3) i don't see how that guy is better than anyone, including moletrap. i'm a big moletrap fan though so i guess that's just me. tbh, i would take Husky or even Tastosis (not the biggest Tastosis fan even tho they are the best technical casters, not just with game knowledge but with casting ability) over that guy based on the 30 seconds i saw. a lot of the best football (American) casters don't SUDDENLY START SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS OH MY GOD!!!! but i still get that i should be excited because i can see quite clearly what is going on. if i'm not gonna be excited by the fact that the guy just scored a goal, then why would i be excited just because the caster is excited?
4) idk, im pretty sure my dad (who would never watch either) would rather watch something like SC2 than DOTA, just bcuz SC2 looks more like a battle and less like a video game. of course, everyone has different taste and whatnot, but i don't see how a guy screaming incoherently (it was incoherent to me) is gonna suddenly make a person who thinks gamers are geeks to be like "Oh well, he screamed?! Then I guess he's a badass, not a geek at all! I'm gonna let this guy date my daughter!"
On June 15 2012 05:55 EneMecH wrote: Or for someone who plays games ALL THE TIME but hasn't played that specific MOBA and doesn't know what all the effectively random and irrelevant visuals mean. I don't see how you can still argue this. Alien shoot acid... the effect of which is the smaller human melts. MOBA is (random moving visual) does (random animation visual) that creates (whatever the affect is) which is represented by (random or obscure visual effect). but times that by 10 and have multiple random things doing multiple random things. A total fucking mess unless you play the game.
On June 15 2012 05:54 ToFu. wrote: i'm pretty sure there are vastly more gamers that have played either rpgs or moba games than those that have played a rts.
in that sense, it'd probably be easier to understand for a lot more people.
it's probably still really confusing to anybody who hasn't played games at all.
You are totally ignoring everything I said. It isn't important for the audience to know every detail of the game. They need to know the basic objectives and the means to reach said objectives. For example if hydras in starcraft for some reason gave 10% more damage if they shot a marine that was already damaged and the acid pools created when marines die gave 1 damage to surrounding units would that make starcraft a worse spectator sport? No, of course not. That would make the game a bit harder to calculate for the players but the audience have no reason at all to know about such trivialities. The only thing they need to know is that the hydra shoots and deals damage, exactly how much damage it deals isn't important at all. Same with all of these spells, the audience only needs to know that the spells hurts the other guy in some way, usually it is obvious (damage and/or stuns in some way) and sometimes it is less so but knowing exactly what it does isn't necessary.
Maybe you want to follow games by immense yourself totally in them understanding every bit of how the players thought when they played the game, but that is not how most watch games. Also if you go by that logic Starcraft is even harder to follow since it doesn't matter if it is easy to understand how a siegetank works, it is extremely complicated to understand how all the buildorders and counter builds works. How do you understand what that building means when you don't have the techtree in your head? Means that most of the game is just boring shit with people raising structures that have no meaning to you. At least in moba games it is obvious what happens, some heroes are beating the shit out of some other heroes or at least scaring them away.
Your only case is when you assume that when they watch starcraft they don't need to understand anything to enjoy it while when they watch moba games they suddenly needs to understand exactly what goes through players minds! If watching explosions and things die in starcraft is enough, why wouldn't it be enough in a moba game? Because a hero can create more than one type of explosion which would confuse people, or what? People don't even know what the single explosion a siegetank in starcraft does then, why would they care if they don't know the difference between explosion A and explosion B a moba hero can make? I don't really see where your argument really is.
Or maybe your point is that there is 10 heroes in a clusterfuck? But the game doesn't start out with 10 heroes in a clusterfuck, you have 2v2 lanes at most with quite few abilities being cast since they are conserving mana. Just watching these short 5v5 fights is like throwing someone into the lategame of a big starcraft game where each player have 4 bases and 200/200 armies are clashing, that would be impossible to comprehend for anyone as well. Then it doesn't matter if it is easy to understand a hydra, it isn't easy to understand what happens when blob vs blob ensues and afterwards one blob is living while the other blob is not. Dota have the same buildup as starcraft, it is slow at first with very few abilities seen introducing more and more as the game goes on. After having watched the 20 minutes buildup I would be surprised if you couldn't understand at least what mostly happens in the 5v5 teamfights.
On June 15 2012 08:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:
and now i watched the video: (keep in mind that this is constructive criticism not just blind shit talking, i have never seen a MOBA being played before this)
Maybe you would have understood anything if you had watched the cast from the beginning...
On June 14 2012 10:31 casualman wrote: MOBAs aren't good spectator sports because of the amount of foreknowledge required to actually understand the game. If you don't understand all the abilities, core items, and functionalities of each of the 10 heroes in the game it is absolutely unwatchable. Combined with the large amount of farming that takes place and the ability for already decided games to drag on because teams don't want to risk a bad teamfight, it isn't really very good to watch.
that to me is a big misconception. Look at sc2 the biggest esports game right now as an example: A lot of people i know watch the game, subscribe to GSL MLG etc without even owning a copy of sc2. 90% of reddit community has never reach above platinum but they still enjoy the game to the fullest extend.
The ultimate goal of a game when it transitioning to esports should be easy to 'enjoy' when watching, not easy to 'learn' when watching. Its the same theory applying to movies now aday: shitty movies like Transformer or Avatar are dominating the market simply bc they have top nouch computer effect instead of good writings. People will enjoy games with more action, explosion than just a boring macro starcraft where 2 side just sit and wait for the final battle.
Now this is where DotA come in play. All games has their own moments of excitement but it up to the caster to make it exciting. Lets take a look at a normal BW casting in Korea:
As you can see and compare it to modern sc2 casting right now, there is almost 0 emotion in any sc2 casters when they see a great moment. Everyone try to make the game sounds too predictable and the game became boring to watch. DotA2 currently is blessed with TobiWan Kenobi, the best play by play caster in esports atm and he will put up a hell of a show in the up coming dreamhack. Just wait and see!
yeah but we got the korean casters in starcraft if we want to listen to crazy yelling, i mean that is an option available.
On June 15 2012 05:55 EneMecH wrote: Or for someone who plays games ALL THE TIME but hasn't played that specific MOBA and doesn't know what all the effectively random and irrelevant visuals mean. I don't see how you can still argue this. Alien shoot acid... the effect of which is the smaller human melts. MOBA is (random moving visual) does (random animation visual) that creates (whatever the affect is) which is represented by (random or obscure visual effect). but times that by 10 and have multiple random things doing multiple random things. A total fucking mess unless you play the game.
On June 15 2012 05:54 ToFu. wrote: i'm pretty sure there are vastly more gamers that have played either rpgs or moba games than those that have played a rts.
in that sense, it'd probably be easier to understand for a lot more people.
it's probably still really confusing to anybody who hasn't played games at all.
You are totally ignoring everything I said. It isn't important for the audience to know every detail of the game. They need to know the basic objectives and the means to reach said objectives. For example if hydras in starcraft for some reason gave 10% more damage if they shot a marine that was already damaged and the acid pools created when marines die gave 1 damage to surrounding units would that make starcraft a worse spectator sport? No, of course not. That would make the game a bit harder to calculate for the players but the audience have no reason at all to know about such trivialities. The only thing they need to know is that the hydra shoots and deals damage, exactly how much damage it deals isn't important at all. Same with all of these spells, the audience only needs to know that the spells hurts the other guy in some way, usually it is obvious (damage and/or stuns in some way) and sometimes it is less so but knowing exactly what it does isn't necessary.
Maybe you want to follow games by immense yourself totally in them understanding every bit of how the players thought when they played the game, but that is not how most watch games. Also if you go by that logic Starcraft is even harder to follow since it doesn't matter if it is easy to understand how a siegetank works, it is extremely complicated to understand how all the buildorders and counter builds works. How do you understand what that building means when you don't have the techtree in your head? Means that most of the game is just boring shit with people raising structures that have no meaning to you. At least in moba games it is obvious what happens, some heroes are beating the shit out of some other heroes or at least scaring them away.
Your only case is when you assume that when they watch starcraft they don't need to understand anything to enjoy it while when they watch moba games they suddenly needs to understand exactly what goes through players minds! If watching explosions and things die in starcraft is enough, why wouldn't it be enough in a moba game? Because a hero can create more than one type of explosion which would confuse people, or what? People don't even know what the single explosion a siegetank in starcraft does then, why would they care if they don't know the difference between explosion A and explosion B a moba hero can make? I don't really see where your argument really is.
Or maybe your point is that there is 10 heroes in a clusterfuck? But the game doesn't start out with 10 heroes in a clusterfuck, you have 2v2 lanes at most with quite few abilities being cast since they are conserving mana. Just watching these short 5v5 fights is like throwing someone into the lategame of a big starcraft game where each player have 4 bases and 200/200 armies are clashing, that would be impossible to comprehend for anyone as well. Then it doesn't matter if it is easy to understand a hydra, it isn't easy to understand what happens when blob vs blob ensues and afterwards one blob is living while the other blob is not. Dota have the same buildup as starcraft, it is slow at first with very few abilities seen introducing more and more as the game goes on. After having watched the 20 minutes buildup I would be surprised if you couldn't understand at least what mostly happens in the 5v5 teamfights.
and now i watched the video: (keep in mind that this is constructive criticism not just blind shit talking, i have never seen a MOBA being played before this)
Maybe you would have understood anything if you had watched the cast from the beginning...
No. They don't need to know the basics. They don't need to know the advanced. They just need to be able to interpret what is going on.
A newcomer can watch a maxed battle where 7 tanks shoot, 30 marines shoot, 3 collossus shoot, etc and they will see 7 tanks shooting, 30 infantry shooting and 3 tall robots shooting and see the effects of their combat.
A newcomer watching late Dota2 is more like they can see 3wrp0esjgiprews54gjesr5pgesgjergehgeshgoersgeoughwoughwhg0wrhgopwrghorwghegoerghoegoegogbogbogboboubgouwrbgobg
It means literally nothing. You could change any of the visuals of dota2 to anything else and it would make equal sense. Like, literally anything. In starcraft 2, if a marine looked like a collossus and the tanks looked like grapefruits that randomy shot different colors of light then you could compare it to MOBA games when it comes to spectating.
I don't know if you've discovered some new graphics setting for sc2, but armies don't look like blobs.
Don't get me wrong, I like fantasy as much as the next person and it has it's place, but it DOES NOT make it easier to watch for a new person.
On June 15 2012 08:22 Klockan3 wrote: Maybe you would have understood anything if you had watched the cast from the beginning...
let's examine this for a moment:
the op wants to prove(?) that DOTA is a better "non-gamer" spectator "sport", specifically because this Tobi guy. right? (if i'm wrong, OP, than i apologize)
he wanted to show me a video of this caster guy at his best. he linked me to a particular moment in the video, so i assumed that that particular moment would give a "non-gamer" (to which i qualify because i never played any MOBAs and i suck at RTS) an instant attraction to the DOTA feel and to this caster. i mean, the whole point of this thing was not: "if you watch a lot of DOTA then you'll love this guy!" it was literally "if you don't watch any DOTA or video games, than you'll love this guy!" and what i got was something i couldn't understand at all, and while i guess that guy is a good caster, i can;'t really tell because i didn't understand anything. if that's because i didn't watch something the guy didn't tell me to watch, then doesn't that make my point rather than his?
i'm just saying that if someone who has never even heard of e-sports clicked on this thread and clicked on that video, they would instantly be like: "wtf is this? what the heck is going on?" which was the exact opposite of his point and the point of him putting the video up. people get excited about sports because they have a connection, not because some caster who has a connection is getting excited. sure, an animated caster can't hurt, but it can only help so much. the OP is way overestimating the value of an animated caster.
edit: this sounds too rough. a lot of different people really enjoy watching DOTA so it must be really exciting on a lot of different levels. im just trying to offer some counterpoints to some of the OPs points
I think its safe to say that Dota2 is far easier to introduce to newcomers who don't really play video games. Is it more exciting to watch? Probably not, peopel won't understand the basics of why heroes aren't just clashing into each other and why they do so much farming whereas in SC2 it makes sense when you explain to someone 'oh, you need more money to make a bigger army'. Dota2 is easier to follow, but at the same time really slow-paced with repetitive scenarios being shown again and again (farming creeps, the occasional gank) and to people who don't appreciate intricate micro and positioning / team-play its pretty boring. In SC2 yes its confusing, but also interesting to see all the different buildings and units being built for a newcomer. So, Dota2 easier to explain and introduce, but SC2 more interesting for people who are actually serious about finding an e-sport to watch and not just joining in for a few minutes.
On June 15 2012 08:44 EneMecH wrote: I don't know if you've discovered some new graphics setting for sc2, but armies don't look like blobs.
They do if you haven't played the game. Your brain have adapted to how marines, tanks and such looks so when it sees a blob it instantly picks out the marines, the tanks, the colossi, the zealots, the stalkers etc. But an untrained eye would just see that everything in that mass is moving and since the units overlap so you can't intuitively tell them appart you wouldn't see what is parts of what and such so the units blend together like a blob. This was one of the biggest complaints before people started to have experience with the game, since then people didn't undertstand that everything gets a ton clearer once you get used to a game so they thought that battles would be impossible to read.
On June 15 2012 08:44 EneMecH wrote: I don't know if you've discovered some new graphics setting for sc2, but armies don't look like blobs.
They do if you haven't played the game. Your brain have adapted to how marines, tanks and such looks so when it sees a blob it instantly picks out the marines, the tanks, the colossi, the zealots, the stalkers etc. But an untrained eye would just see that everything in that mass is moving and since the units overlap so you can't intuitively tell them appart you wouldn't see what is parts of what and such so the units blend together like a blob. This was one of the biggest complaints before people started to have experience with the game, since then people didn't undertstand that everything gets a ton clearer once you get used to a game so they thought that battles would be impossible to read.
It was a complaint in alpha builds with fake battles. Look, I'm only saying it because I am convinced it's true.... I've watched RTS games before. I've watched Moba games before. And like the guy earlier said, I can't fucking understand anything that goes on the screen and a guy shouting random words at me doesn't help. I know for a fact people watch sc2 who do not really play the game. I have not seen the same people for MOBA at all...
"The tank is sieged up and is now shelling that assimilator" and seeing it happen makes a lot more sense than moba. Sure, you might not know what the assimilator is exactly but you know its a building, it obviously matters, and the tank is shooting it from the high ground.
"Kurnac, OMG DAGGER BLINK if he gets eternal he will gank their solo carry" and seeing mostly random moving "creatures" and lights isn't the same.
I think people who aren't exposed to Starcraft mechanics would think the first 7 minutes of every Starcraft 2 game would be pretty boring without cheese or super early aggression.
On June 15 2012 08:22 Klockan3 wrote: Maybe you would have understood anything if you had watched the cast from the beginning...
let's examine this for a moment:
the op wants to prove(?) that DOTA is a better "non-gamer" spectator "sport", specifically because this Tobi guy. right? (if i'm wrong, OP, than i apologize)
he wanted to show me a video of this caster guy at his best. he linked me to a particular moment in the video, so i assumed that that particular moment would give a "non-gamer" (to which i qualify because i never played any MOBAs and i suck at RTS) an instant attraction to the DOTA feel and to this caster. i mean, the whole point of this thing was not: "if you watch a lot of DOTA then you'll love this guy!" it was literally "if you don't watch any DOTA or video games, than you'll love this guy!" and what i got was something i couldn't understand at all, and while i guess that guy is a good caster, i can;'t really tell because i didn't understand anything. if that's because i didn't watch something the guy didn't tell me to watch, then doesn't that make my point rather than his?
i'm just saying that if someone who has never even heard of e-sports clicked on this thread and clicked on that video, they would instantly be like: "wtf is this? what the heck is going on?" which was the exact opposite of his point and the point of him putting the video up. people get excited about sports because they have a connection, not because some caster who has a connection is getting excited. sure, an animated caster can't hurt, but it can only help so much. the OP is way overestimating the value of an animated caster.
edit: this sounds too rough. a lot of different people really enjoy watching DOTA so it must be really exciting on a lot of different levels. im just trying to offer some counterpoints to some of the OPs points
i think there are a few points you have misunderstood with my OP post:
1/I have never claim that DotA is more friendly to non-gamer than the rest.
2/ I have, however, claim that with good commentary, which is currently available in DotA2, viewers will have a chance to experience the passion/love of people in the scene therefore create more interest into DotA2 toward non-gamer audience compare to other games.
Viewer obviously are well informed that they are watching DreamHack, a video games competition so they have a sense that it is computer entertainments they are watching. However, without a basic knowledge about the games, their judgement will be purely based on the outlook and others reaction around them. What does this means? Well since most games right now just fulled with laser and explosion, there are not much extinction between them. There might be between game genres like FPS RTS but overall they are the same. However, spotted out the most is the professional sport commentary that we are currently having in DotA2. Prove me wrong but screaming do gain a lot of people attention to find out what are so exciting to others people.
Why don't you just say you claim that it doesn't matter if it's Korean commentating in BW or Tobi in DotA 2 - casters with heart and soul make casts you will love and enjoy. =P
It doesn't matter if you don't understand a word of what they're saying. It doesn't even matter if you know the game or not. If they can convey that this shit is serious, exciting and absolutely mind-blowing they will make you want to keep watching.
Maybe you even learn how this stuff actually works, but that's a cool side-effect. Conveying passion and emotion > conveying information.
On June 15 2012 22:17 r.Evo wrote: Why don't you just say you claim that it doesn't matter if it's Korean commentating in BW or Tobi in DotA 2 - casters with heart and soul make casts you will love and enjoy. =P
It doesn't matter if you don't understand a word of what they're saying. It doesn't even matter if you know the game or not. If they can convey that this shit is serious, exciting and absolutely mind-blowing they will make you want to keep watching.
Maybe you even learn how this stuff actually works, but that's a cool side-effect. Conveying passion and emotion > conveying information.
I would say that being able to understand it makes it a lot better though. BW korean commentary can be great even if you don't understand a single word of what they are saying, but I bet everyone wishes they could understand them. If you are not paricularly knowledgeble about the strategies used makes it even more important. Unfortunatelly Tobi can't be compared to SC casters in game knowledge, but a good co-commentator does wonders. I do agree that emotion > information though, Dota russian stream are pretty good as well.
when i started watching sc2 matches after switching from bw i still had no fucking clue what half the stuff did until i played the game a significant amount
I dont understand why Dota needs to "kick other games' ass" to be successful. That being said, I hope Dota does well because I enjoy playing it but I could care less about whether or not it is popular.