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I'm an average Terran player in SC2 and I'm very frustrated by all the nerfs to Terran. Ever since release, every Terran unit has been getting nerfed to oblivion. The reaper made useless, now merely an expensive scouting tool. Hellions getting nerfed. Thors nerfed. Medivacs. Marauders vs expansions. Now ghost, etc.
I've never used those units in a way to ever make them 'imba'. Take the ghosts for example. From what I've seen, only MVP, and a handful of players in very specific situations made it seem like 'imba'.
But even so, MVP doesn't do it every game. He has to work it out so that he has the lead, then he turtles to late game and strategically prepare to switch to ghosts. So this strategy requires careful planning and execution, and is only 'imba' in the hands of the best player with proper planning.
And more importantly, it doesn't always work. If he doesn't get a lead, he doesn't have the econ to survive and pump out mass ghosts and gets overrun.
It might be imba if a Terran was losing the game, then got ghosts and won. But that's rarely the case. Terrans get ghosts when they're already ahead. They probably could've won anyway with more aggressive strategies (MMA/jjakji/gumiho style), but decided to take the safer strategic decision.
What about infestors + brood lord? Guess what? Every Zerg from bronze league to Korean pro is using that strategy. It's highly effectively to the point where every noob uses it to great effect but it's not 'imba' at all. Also to note, many Zergs are badly losing the game, then making an easy crushing victory once they have infestor/broodlords. They only lose by having crappy control and sending in broodlords by themselves or get outplayed.
The same thing with reapers. Idra, Fruitdealer, etc have easily defeated the 5-rax reaper strategy. Eventually, all Zergs will probably easily defend against it, just like how the 1-1-1 got figured out by Protoss. But that wasn't enough, reapers had to be nerfed asap. No speed until Factory. No barracks before supply depot.
Terran at the lower levels just don't seem fun anymore. The Terran race is being balanced based on a few top Korean Terrans. Zerg and Protoss on the other hand are rarely affected by patches. Their strategies work seamlessly from noob to pro. Maybe it's time to switch.
  
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Infestor + broodlord is one of the most imbalanced compositions in this game, and blizzard is doing 0 about it  . I feel your pain mate.
User was warned for this post
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I am just not sure that looking at the game in this fashion is the best way to prepare yourself to win games. The balance, and the units are in constant flux. It's upto you to find the best units, and the ways to win.
I wouldn't take this in a negative way, this is just Blizzard looking out for everyone..
Also, these topics will just spiral into limitless conversations based on what each players experiences. And it means nothing because the expansions are coming in the future. Play the game you have in the moment, and enjoy the current patch.. because Starcraft 2 will never be the same ever again.
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To be fair, most of the community tried to tell terran players that their race was overpowered (in general), and that they should expect nerfs and harder games. Most terrans responded something along the lines of "game is fine, get better." Well... look what happened. I honestly think the snipe nerf isn't being done in the right way (as it is now), but it needs a nerf, it is too strong against zerg overall.
I'm not sure what level you are at, but I'd definitely consider switching. Zerg seems like the easiest race to play casually at a decent (high diamond, master) level on NA. This is somewhat my opinion, but sc2 ranks also supports this (look it up if u want, too lazy too myself). Protoss isn't bad either, but it is really hard to learn surviving the early game with.
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Where does a Zerg get all that gas to build such a gas heavy composition i wonder?
Oh thats right, after being left alone for the whole game. Terrans who get ahead and then turtle seem surprised when infestor broodlord comes out of nowhere? Its hard to deal with but so is a mech army, a protoss deathball.
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The hellion nerf was needed. There's no way it wasn't. Honestly, I wish Blizzard would have nerfed marines slightly and then left all of the other units the way they were. That would make for a lot more interesting unit compositions than the 75% marine comps we are seeing nowadays.
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Reapers didn't got nerfed because of just 1v1, it was 2v2 and other team games where they raped too hard.
And they are still useful exactly because they are rarely used, many zerg don't expect them.
Hellion nerf really only affected how well they fight against marines...
What do you mean by Thor and Marauder nerf?
On February 19 2012 05:16 Snowbear wrote:Infestor + broodlord is one of the most imbalanced compositions in this game, and blizzard is doing 0 about it . I feel your pain mate.
I don't understand your problem, you got Vikings and Ghosts will kill Infestors in 2 snipes now.
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On February 19 2012 05:16 Snowbear wrote:Infestor + broodlord is one of the most imbalanced compositions in this game, and blizzard is doing 0 about it . I feel your pain mate.
As a toss I simply don't win against this unless I'm way ahead when they get it.
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On February 19 2012 06:29 Stipulation wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:16 Snowbear wrote:Infestor + broodlord is one of the most imbalanced compositions in this game, and blizzard is doing 0 about it . I feel your pain mate. As a toss I simply don't win against this unless I'm way ahead when they get it.
On January 31 2012 20:55 MorroW wrote:
a 3 base protoss is ok vs any number of zerg bases - wolf
wise words right there
To the OP, I think every terran sort of gets really frustrated when their control is just not up to par, I myself when I was around diamond just hated tvz. Yes sometimes it's pretty frustrating playing the least played race outside of korea, and having people still think its easy mode, but just take pride in knowing you are playing the hardest race and it's the least played for a reason.
It gets better once you get good enough control , I'd even say TvZ is T favored once you get to the point where you can pressure and keep macroing behind it in late game, of course your losses will still be frustrating as hell, as it often involves getting a moved while you do 0 damage because your micro was a split second too late, or not being ready for a ultra / bl tech switch and losing a won game to A move units.
But the games you win where you played well the entire game, are more fun and rewarding than any victory you will get as zerg or protoss. If you can enjoy a victory where you were behind the whole game but win because your opponents units are simply harder to control then by all means switch. If you want every victory to be because you controlled your harder to control units like a boss, then keep playing terran till you get good  .
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Terran got nerfed every patch because the game was horribly balanced. Think about it: originally you could build your rax before supply depot, bunker rush, and then do a 3rax marine/marauder stim timing off one base at like the 7:00 mark. In close spawn positions, of course.
Every patch Terran's early game got nerfed and nerfed and its still the strongest early game of the 3 races. They still have the most options.
Food for thought: Brood Lords move at a speed of 1.4, Raven's seeker missle moves at 2.9 or so - dealing 100 dmg. This means broodlords can not ever dodge HSM. You ever see brood lords get fucked up by an archon toilet? It takes 3 HSM's to instantly vaporize infinite broodlords if they are stacked up. You'll also vaporize the infestors underneath if the zerg is silly enough to stack them.
Terrans dont even make ravens, this is why ghost has to be nerfed. Terran has so many builds and units they just never use because their core army is so good and has so much utility...
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Why is everyone so biased?
I play terran and ghost nerf is fine. Ghost were too good in late game TvZ. 20+ ghost mech ball pretty much countered anything zerg could do.
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I was a gold zerg. I switched to Terran over the new year and dropped to Silver. Now I am back to Gold and climbing. The game is fine. Maybe the patch is too much nerf for ghosts. If so, Blizz will fix it.
Don't forget that we have Marines. Tanks. Marauders. Medivacs. Stim.
With your attitude, you should switch. There is no easy race.
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I was gold Terran for a year and a half. I switched to Zerg and was plat in 3 days.
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Broodlord infestor is very similar to mid game mech from Terran. It's so fucking good it's almost impossible to fight straight up. If you've ever watched GSL, you might've noticed instead of trying to fight, many Zergs will try to base trade or counter, attack many locations at once and basically attempt to abuse the mobility without directly engaging. With that being said, you guys haven't even really experimented yet with Ravens late game. I feel like Ghost/Raven Bio or Mass Air Banshee/Viking/Raven will get nerfed in the long run anyway. PDD literally blocks every singe Zerg Ground to Air and Air vs Air in the game, just like the Ghost countered all T2/T3 units Zerg could make. I haven't even touched on Seeker Missile or Autoturret abuse which can be devastating late game to expos, wall off entire sections of the map quickly with an attacking energy only ability and also last for years with the durable materials upgrade. Also of note is the fact that behind minerals, they are basically impossible to kill with lings. Despite the fact that the ghost will no longer be the 100% answer to all your late game TvZ, dealing thousands of damage in seconds and killing entire T3 armies with almost zero losses, I still think there may be a way available to play lategame TvZ.
As for Terran getting nerfed over and over and over and over, here's why.
http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS
As you can clearly see in the international scene as well as Korea, Terran has never fallen below 50% against either of the other two races since release despite countless changes to balance, maps, metagame and player styles. Also a quick check of the best of the best Zerg players will reveal Vs T winrates only slightly above 50%, while the best Terrans look invincible with 70-80% winrates vs Z and P. All numbers taken straight from TLPD.
 MMA
1v1 Record:
All: 83-51 (61.94%)
VT: 45-29 (60.81%)
vZ: 21-5 (80.77%)
VP: 17-17 (50.00%)
MVP
1v1 Record:
All: 124-61 (67.03%)
VT: 62-29 (68.13%)
vZ: 41-20 (67.21%)
VP: 21-12 (63.64%)
GuMiho
1v1 Record:
All: 84-57 (59.57%)
VT: 31-33 (48.44%)
vZ: 28-12 (70.00%)
VP: 25-12 (67.57%)
 NesTea
1v1 Record:
All: 100-51 (66.23%)
vT: 50-39 (56.18%)
vZ: 28-5 (84.85%)
VP: 22-7 (75.86%)
LosirA
1v1 Record:
All: 67-57 (54.03%)
vT: 25-32 (43.86%)
vZ: 16-11 (59.26%)
VP: 26-14 (65.00%)
DRG
1v1 Record:
All: 58-26 (69.05%)
vT: 29-16 (64.44%)
vZ: 7-2 (77.78%)
VP: 22-8 (73.33%)
 MC
1v1 Record:
All: 90-60 (60.00%)
vT: 43-30 (58.90%)
vZ: 22-19 (53.66%)
VP: 25-11 (69.44%)
HuK
1v1 Record:
All: 34-42 (44.74%)
vT: 12-17 (41.38%)
vZ: 13-14 (48.15%)
VP: 9-11 (45.00%)
HerO
1v1 Record:
All: 17-26 (39.53%)
vT: 4-11 (26.67%)
vZ: 10-10 (50.00%)
VP: 3-5 (37.50%)
As seen clearly above, the only player to break 60% winrate vs T is DRG. With that being said, it's also statistically his worst matchup by nearly 10%.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 19 2012 07:04 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Broodlord infestor is very similar to mid game mech from Terran. It's so fucking good it's almost impossible to fight straight up. If you've ever watched GSL, you might've noticed instead of trying to fight, many Zergs will try to base trade or counter, attack many locations at once and basically attempt to abuse the mobility without directly engaging. With that being said, you guys haven't even really experimented yet with Ravens late game. I feel like Ghost/Raven Bio or Mass Air Banshee/Viking/Raven will get nerfed in the long run anyway. PDD literally blocks every singe Zerg Ground to Air and Air vs Air in the game, just like the Ghost countered all T2/T3 units Zerg could make. I haven't even touched on Seeker Missile or Autoturret abuse which can be devastating late game to expos, wall off entire sections of the map quickly with an attacking energy only ability and also last for years with the durable materials upgrade. Also of note is the fact that behind minerals, they are basically impossible to kill with lings. Despite the fact that the ghost will no longer be the 100% answer to all your late game TvZ, dealing thousands of damage in seconds and killing entire T3 armies with almost zero losses, I still think there may be a way available to play lategame TvZ. As for Terran getting nerfed over and over and over and over, here's why. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSAs you can clearly see in the international scene as well as Korea, Terran has never fallen below 50% against either of the other two races since release despite countless changes to balance, maps, metagame and player styles. Also a quick check of the best of the best Zerg players will reveal Vs T winrates only slightly above 50%, while the best Terrans look invincible with 70-80% winrates vs Z and P. All numbers taken straight from TLPD. MMA1v1 Record: All: 83-51 (61.94%) VT: 45-29 (60.81%) vZ: 21-5 (80.77%) VP: 17-17 (50.00%) MVP1v1 Record: All: 124-61 (67.03%) VT: 62-29 (68.13%) vZ: 41-20 (67.21%)
VP: 21-12 (63.64%) GuMiho1v1 Record: All: 84-57 (59.57%) VT: 31-33 (48.44%) vZ: 28-12 (70.00%)
VP: 25-12 (67.57%) NesTea1v1 Record: All: 100-51 (66.23%) vT: 50-39 (56.18%) vZ: 28-5 (84.85%) VP: 22-7 (75.86%) LosirA1v1 Record: All: 67-57 (54.03%) vT: 25-32 (43.86%) vZ: 16-11 (59.26%) VP: 26-14 (65.00%) DRG1v1 Record: All: 58-26 (69.05%) vT: 29-16 (64.44%) vZ: 7-2 (77.78%) VP: 22-8 (73.33%) MC1v1 Record: All: 90-60 (60.00%) vT: 43-30 (58.90%)vZ: 22-19 (53.66%) VP: 25-11 (69.44%) HuK1v1 Record: All: 34-42 (44.74%) vT: 12-17 (41.38%) vZ: 13-14 (48.15%) VP: 9-11 (45.00%) HerO1v1 Record: All: 17-26 (39.53%) vT: 4-11 (26.67%) vZ: 10-10 (50.00%) VP: 3-5 (37.50%) As seen clearly above, the only player to break 60% winrate vs T is DRG. With that being said, it's also statistically his worst matchup by nearly 10%.
This would be useful if the OP, and everyone outside of korea, were as good as koreans. It's pretty much exactly what the OP is complaining about, the top terrans making it harder to play for casuals. But I don't think making terran easier is any answer I'd rather they make the other races harder at lower levels.(but that seems to be the direction they want to take in HOTS with battle hellions, now you can a move too!)
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On February 19 2012 05:12 vnlegend wrote:I've never used those units in a way to ever make them 'imba'. Take the ghosts for example. From what I've seen, only MVP, and a handful of players in very specific situations made it seem like 'imba'.
The ghost nerf is similar to the infestor neural parasite nerf: Blizzard doesn't want 1 unit to be able to respond to everything.
That said, there's absolutely no reason for you to commit to terran. If you feel it's not fun to play, then don't play it.  I've personally switched races back and forth more times than I can remember, and I still continue to have fun with this game.
(Though I do notice your signature and wonder . . . )
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On February 19 2012 06:43 darkscream wrote:
Terran got nerfed every patch because the game was horribly balanced. Think about it: originally you could build your rax before supply depot, bunker rush, and then do a 3rax marine/marauder stim timing off one base at like the 7:00 mark. In close spawn positions, of course.
Every patch Terran's early game got nerfed and nerfed and its still the strongest early game of the 3 races. They still have the most options.
Food for thought: Brood Lords move at a speed of 1.4, Raven's seeker missle moves at 2.9 or so - dealing 100 dmg. This means broodlords can not ever dodge HSM. You ever see brood lords get fucked up by an archon toilet? It takes 3 HSM's to instantly vaporize infinite broodlords if they are stacked up. You'll also vaporize the infestors underneath if the zerg is silly enough to stack them.
Terrans dont even make ravens, this is why ghost has to be nerfed. Terran has so many builds and units they just never use because their core army is so good and has so much utility...
I'm not usually one to comment on balance issues, since 1, I'm bad at the game, 2, I generally believe theory crafting sucks, and the best way to see if something is good or not is actually to try it out, but I will comment on SM.
Yes Terrans rarely ever use Ravens, and yes they should use ravens, but I have issue with relying on SM. Unlike the archon toilet, which in part relies on mistakes on the zergs behalf, and good play by the protoss, ie good vortex placement, SM seems like it should only ever work if the zerg fucks up.
if I could destroy the whole zerg army in 3 SM, then yes please, but the reality is often not like that, when you see players like Stephano besieging terran bases for example, usually the brood lords are in a nice arc, so it would take more than just 3 SM missiles to kill them all.
Lets say that the zerg has 8 broodlords, ans assuming no overlap what so ever, that is 8 times 3, so 24 seeker missiles, again realistically, this number will be lower, because I think there will always be some damage overlap. Basically I'm a skeptic, since in one engagement one raven can launch exactly one SM.
I think rather that the SM will be used instead on the corrupters that are going after the viking cloud, rather than the broodlords themselves.
It should be interesting to see how it plays out.
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All races have balance problems at lower levels. Gold toss here who loses to 1-1-1 all the time, even when scouted. They don't need a high apm to pull it off and at times it makes playing against terran not fun. But I play on, your race does get nerfed every patch, but I still lose to terran all the time, so there must be effective strats that can be pulled off at lower levels.
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Ghost snipe doesn't kill zergling.
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On February 19 2012 07:05 Nibbler89 wrote:
This would be useful if the OP, and everyone outside of korea, were as good as koreans. It's pretty much exactly what the OP is complaining about, the top terrans making it harder to play for casuals. But I don't think making terran easier is any answer I'd rather they make the other races harder at lower levels.(but that seems to be the direction they want to take in HOTS with battle hellions, now you can a move too!)
Not sure if you clicked the link, but in the international graph as well as Korea, Terran has NEVER fallen below 50%. Your argument that Terrans outside of Korea are bad or not good enough is flawed because just like on the Korea graph, they are dominating in tournaments. The numbers clearly show that Terran is stronger and oblivious to metagame changes, map changes, player strategy or balance changes. I agree that Terran is very hard to play, however if the answer is "get better", that's totally acceptable. That's how Terran was in BW. Hard as hell at the low levels, nearly untouchable when played extremely well. I have no problems with the game requiring more skill to win, I do have problems with a single unit countering the complete T2 and T3 tech tree of an entire race. It just doesn't make sense in a game of supposed soft counters. If OP's argument is really ZOMG Terran is so hard unless I practice a lot.... well then that's not really an argument at all. I'm pretty sure the NFL or being a doctor would be really hard too without practice. I don't give a damn about the game being equally hard to play at all levels, it's not possible. Trying playing as Zerg with a silver league understanding of drone timing and tell me that's as equally hard as A moving marines or colossus. At every level of the game different races need to focus on different skills in order to succeed.
If we're going to use the argument that the game should be equally difficult to play as all races, I think the multitask of Protoss could use more difficulty at all levels. Speaking from experience, at the Diamond level I've lost to 80apm turtle tosses that just A-move after getting a deathball as a 220 APM Zerg with sub 6 seconds injects. One could argue that this is bullshit, obviously unfair and garbage.. however the game is harder at certain levels for some races over the others. Get better or quit. If it's still totally possible to win by just being better, I don't see an issue.
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EPT
