EPT
. I hope this gets noticed.Church!
The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 10
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Zax19
Czech Republic1136 Posts
. I hope this gets noticed.Church! | ||
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linduxed
Sweden111 Posts
What's extra problematic is that SC2 doesn't use subtractive damage, but additive damage. This in itself is not a problem, but qxc's change would need subtractive damage, and that would (if I'm not mistaken) the Ghost the only unit with that kind of damage. I don't think Blizzard would like that. So as said, I agree with the blog, but I sadly don't think it will be fixed right now. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop. Great write up | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
Great read as always! | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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CCow
Germany335 Posts
That would be kind of achieve a not-wanted change, as I see it, since I don't see ghosts needing a buff for TvP. Apart from that I do think that a change like that would make a lot more sense. Banning ghosts from early-mid TvT would be so sad! :S | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:24 Demonhunter04 wrote: The problem with your proposed BC changes is that corruptors hard counter battlecruisers and BCs are not that greatly effective against ultralisks, so zerg can fall back on their tech switching to easily destroy BCs anyway. BCs also only have 6 range and are vulnerable to neural parasite. The entire point of my proposed change is to nerf Ghosts vs Zerg T3 while giving Terran more options to kill Zerg T3. The reason why I specifically suggested buffing the BC Air-to-Air attack was to make BCs better vs Corruptors without damaging other matchups. The problem with Infestor/Broodlord/Ultra is that if you overmake Vikings, you have no way to punish the Zerg for losing air control. And because you can't rely on just Vikings or just MM, you must make a shit ton of Ghosts to be at least somewhat good against everything. However, if BCs were better, then Terran suddenly would have a way to really punish the Zerg for tech switching out of Spire. It would force the Zerg to cycle in more Hydra/Infestor/Queen to deal with the BCs, which can, in turn, be countered by other Terran units. And so on and so forth. Also, BCs need to be vulnerable to NP. Otherwise Zerg will have no counters to BCs at all. It's tough to find a Terran unit that is strong against Hive units like BL/Ultra, but is weak to Lair units like Infestor/Hydra. (Other than the Marine) But BCs can fit into that role, as long as they are improved vs Corruptors. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness. Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them. Way to completely miss the point. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense. Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop. Great write up Well, be careful what you wish for. Both Idra and Nestea have made a case for nerfing Ghosts into the ground in numerous interviews. Pro feedback is not always the best way to balance a game. Pros may have the best experience and knowledge, but they also have the worst bias. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable. That's exactly the intent of the unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Terran is already incredibly versatile, and the ghost has fit this niche all along anyway. There's a lot of nice hypothetical situations of pre-nerf snipe in this thread but none I've seen in the top tier of competition. I'd say just about every snipe I've seen has been used against massive zerg units or casters. Personally, I see this thread as an over exaggeration accompanied by a flock of sheep. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:09 RoboBob wrote: The entire point of my proposed change is to nerf Ghosts vs Zerg T3 while giving Terran more options to kill Zerg T3. The reason why I specifically suggested buffing the BC Air-to-Air attack was to make BCs better vs Corruptors without damaging other matchups. The problem with Infestor/Broodlord/Ultra is that if you overmake Vikings, you have no way to punish the Zerg for losing air control. And because you can't rely on just Vikings or just MM, you must make a shit ton of Ghosts to be at least somewhat good against everything. However, if BCs were better, then Terran suddenly would have a way to really punish the Zerg for tech switching out of Spire. It would force the Zerg to cycle in more Hydra/Infestor/Queen to deal with the BCs, which can, in turn, be countered by other Terran units. And so on and so forth. Also, BCs need to be vulnerable to NP. Otherwise Zerg will have no counters to BCs at all. It's tough to find a Terran unit that is strong against Hive units like BL/Ultra, but is weak to Lair units like Infestor/Hydra. (Other than the Marine) But BCs can fit into that role, as long as they are improved vs Corruptors. I wasn't saying they shouldn't be vulnerable to NP. What I'm saying is that the infestor/corruptor combination crushes viking/battlecruiser and it needs to be that way to avoid breaking the game. On February 15 2012 06:14 Gentso wrote: That's exactly the intent of the unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Terran is already incredibly versatile, and the ghost has fit this niche all along anyway. There's a lot of nice hypothetical situations of pre-nerf snipe in this thread but none I've seen in the top tier of competition. I'd say just about every snipe I've seen has been used against massive zerg units or casters. Personally, I see this thread as an over exaggeration accompanied by a flock of sheep. Snipe has been used frequently on other units, you just haven't seen the games in question. This thread is not an over-exaggeration and the issue lies in that Zerg can tech switch rapidly while Terran can't, which means that Terran has to have a unit that is well rounded, such as the ghost. | ||
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CatsnHats
United States199 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
Ghost should still 1 shot marines. The only way to keep this is to give - to massive, not - base damage. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
Snipe has been used frequently on other units, you just haven't seen the games in question. This thread is not an over-exaggeration and the issue lies in that Zerg can tech switch rapidly while Terran can't, which means that Terran has to have a unit that is well rounded, such as the ghost. I'm sorry I said top tier of competition. That's basically all I watch. If someone from the lower brackets of some tournament uses snipe against something other than massive zerg units or casters then honestly it's just not on the same level. I don't know when tech switching was brought into the argument, but that's completely irrelevant. Terran has to have a well rounded unit, and you think it should be the ghost? No, the well rounded Terran unit you're looking for is the marine. In the top tier of competition (where it matters, basically), the nerf will only affect ghosts versus massive zerg units. That's really what it boils down to. Sure, you can do the change mentioned in the OP but it's unnecessary. | ||
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Saltydizzle
United States123 Posts
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
The best part is, a snipe ability that does less damage to massive even makes sense for the "lore" (which Blizzard does occasionally seem to care about for whatever reason). So do it, Blizzard. Make the right decision. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:14 Gentso wrote: That's exactly the intent of the unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Terran is already incredibly versatile, and the ghost has fit this niche all along anyway. There's a lot of nice hypothetical situations of pre-nerf snipe in this thread but none I've seen in the top tier of competition. I'd say just about every snipe I've seen has been used against massive zerg units or casters. Personally, I see this thread as an over exaggeration accompanied by a flock of sheep. So your position is that because people haven't done it, we should make sure that they can't do it? That makes no sense. Snipe is an ability that has a lot of potential uses that, for whatever reason, people haven't adopted it to. Since it's stupid to assume we know what the meta will look like in a year's time (and for HOTS particularly), why take away something that enocurages invoation with a unit that requires micro? | ||
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