• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:45
CEST 07:45
KST 14:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview5[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris38Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
#2: Serral - Greatest Players of All Time #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update BoxeR's Wings Episode 2 - Fan Translation
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Kirktown Chat Brawl #8 - 4.6K max Tonight LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
Post ASL20 Ro24 discussion. BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Easiest luckies way to get out of Asl groups BW General Discussion No Rain in ASL20?
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Ro24 Group F Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Mechabellum Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 856 users

The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong

Blogs > qxc
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 34 35 36 Next All
qxc
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 04:21:43
February 14 2012 18:10 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Summary:+ Show Spoiler +
The ghost change negatively affects how ghosts work in scenarios besides vs. Tier 3 Zerg for no real reason. Instead of changing Ghost damage to be 25 +25 to Psionic it could be changed it to be 50 base damage minus some amount to massive. This still addresses the Zerg tier 3 issue, gives ghosts a better chance vs. infestors and keeps the rest of the situations where ghosts might be used in tact.


qxc vs. Puma casted by Husky featuring ghosts

Maybe you've heard. Maybe you havn't. Patch 1.4.3 has been announced and due to a tweaking of numbers ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl. While ghosts are indeed being used TvZ all the time, they would no longer be potentially viable in many other situations after said change.

So what's the change?
Snipe currently does 45 damage.
After 1.4.3 Snipe will do 25 +25 to Psionic units

Why?
Blizzard is changing this to reduce the strength of mass ghost armies vs. zerg in the late game - something that seems reasonable.

So what's the problem?
Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable.

Things you can snipe

Marine
Marauder
Ghost
Reaper
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Zergling
Baneling
Roach
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Queen
Infestor
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Workers

What units would you reasonably want to snipe (Where 3-4 snipes makes the ghost roughly pay for itself or where snipe is a good response as in the case of broodlord/viking)

[image loading]

[image loading]

Things you want to snipe
Marine
Marauder
Reaper
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Baneling
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Infestor
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Workers



You can see that basically all terran bio is vulnerable to snipe as well as some specific units from zerg. The most notable are banelings and mutalisks.

Now separate into 2 groups - post patch - those that would take less damage and those that would take more.

Less
marine
marauder
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
workers

More
Infestor
High Templar
Dark Templar

[image loading]

This isn't just a small nerf being proposed. It's almost a 50% reduction in damage. It'd be like if marines now did 4 base damage. It's a big decrease and any unit that would take 25 damage instead of the old 45 wouldn't be worth sniping anymore. The ghost just wouldn't be cost efficient.

Herein lies the problem. This change affects a lot more than just tier 3 Zerg. All of a sudden ghosts are not really cost efficient at all vs. anything that isn't psionic. This change would ruin possible innovation and uses for snipe in other situations.

[image loading]

Cool Situations before

One shotting banelings with snipe to protect your bio clump - not possible after the change

Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd

Using snipe to fend off muta harrass - again. 25 damage per shot means 5 snipes vs. just 3. Plus that assumes you're even able to click the same muta 5 times.

My personal favorite: opening fast ghosts TvT and using snipe to one shot marines - again not possible after the change

[image loading]

Have we seen these situations before? Not really. Maybe once? Maybe almost never, but the point is that if Blizzard changes Ghosts in the proposed way we won't. Not now, not ever. This change kills potential innovation and interesting play. But the ghost vs. Tier 3 Zerg relationship can be fixed while keeping the ghost in tact in other situations.

Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive
. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful.

Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations.

A final note of consideration against the proposed change:

Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.

Now we just need Blizzard to know. Show your friends. Tweet about it. Discuss it on Reddit. If Blizzard hears us talking they will listen. We just need to be loud enough. Please, don't let Blizzard kill ghosts. They've barely had a chance to live.



****
ProgamerDesigner of Aeon's End
Frostfire
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States419 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:13:51
February 14 2012 18:13 GMT
#2
I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.

And I'm zerg.
"In solitude, we are least alone"
Baituri
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands1501 Posts
February 14 2012 18:14 GMT
#3
This is how changes should be done. Don't forget the big picture to change the thing you want to change. I was impressed when I heard it on State of the Game, and I still am.

Great blog!
Bwall
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden145 Posts
February 14 2012 18:15 GMT
#4
Your posts are always interesting to read, well done!
Frostfire
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States419 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:17:24
February 14 2012 18:15 GMT
#5
Actually, now that I think about it, snipe should do 45 base damage and have the damage reduced with armor upgrades. Maybe combine the energy upgrade with 5 more damage to snipe? Something that allows snipe damage to be upgraded VERY SLIGHTLY 10 (10 at MOST) but have the damage reduced by armor.

That would be more balanced, at least in my platinum eyes.
"In solitude, we are least alone"
archangel967
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada111 Posts
February 14 2012 18:16 GMT
#6
I still think this change (or one with similar numbers) is reasonable. The ghost and specifically the snipe ability was not meant to be an answer to everything. I think changing this will only be good.

And in regards to the comments being made here and by others about how this will change the matchup. The matchups are constantly changing whether from patching or from shifts in the metagame. I don't feel it's reasonable to expect the game to remain the same so you can perfect your strategies. As a viewer more than a player this only makes the game more interesting for me. I appreciate that it's difficulty to deal with these shifts as the one that is playing with them day to day but I still don't think this change is as game breaking as is being advertised.
When you're ahead, get further ahead.
Leargle
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
February 14 2012 18:16 GMT
#7
qxc for balance designer
Maphack supply depot overlord
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
February 14 2012 18:17 GMT
#8
I really enjoy your blogposts man, keep em comming

When I think about the Snipe-nerf, I really always come back to "I want back my Irradiate!"

I completely agree with your points though dude, thank you for sharing
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
February 14 2012 18:18 GMT
#9
QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.
blaaaaaarghhhhh
Matiz_pl
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland163 Posts
February 14 2012 18:19 GMT
#10
Really good post, altough im zerg player i think the current proposed change by blizzard is bad and is taking away (such heavy nerf is basically a removal) a really cool ablility and can make late game zvt unwinnable for terran. Instead of 50% nerf to all nonpsionic targets, 25% to massive and no change to non-massive sounds reasonable.
"Competitive gaming consists of one and only one rule. You use what wins. " - FuumaMonou
Gheed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States972 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#11
Thanks for posting this, I haven't seen a single pro say the nerf is good as they posted it.
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#12
On February 15 2012 03:18 Moochlol wrote:
QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.


I bet there is a bigger chance of a dev seeing it, if it's posted here than if its on the B.net forums.
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#13
why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.
keep it deep! @zulison
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#14
Would love to see it changed to damage reduction vs massive, would make more sense that way
Balgrog
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1221 Posts
February 14 2012 18:21 GMT
#15
Awesome blog, hopefully blizzard will read this and take it into consideration.
The only way to attack structure is with chaos.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:23:17
February 14 2012 18:22 GMT
#16
On February 15 2012 03:20 zul wrote:
why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.


Because combating infestor on top of ZT3 is very difficult(3 snipes to kill infestor), banking on the infestor taking some random extra dmg to kill it when it sits @ 1 health or something is kinda dumb, he is making the math like this so it 2 shots infestor, which is totally valid given the situation.
blaaaaaarghhhhh
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
February 14 2012 18:24 GMT
#17
For the record you cannot snipe probes they are strictly mechanical.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
[NSL]BansheeHero
Profile Joined February 2011
Czech Republic143 Posts
February 14 2012 18:24 GMT
#18
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote:
I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.

And I'm zerg.

thats the same wrong done worse. We still enjoy all the negatives QxC mentioned, but ghost will still be strong against broodlord.
Today I settled all family business so don't tell me what is imba. Admit what you did.
CrtBalorda
Profile Joined December 2011
Slovenia704 Posts
February 14 2012 18:24 GMT
#19
Waw a lot of effor put into this. I completly aggree. A bit wierd that blizzard made this change when they put so much thought into thair balance changes and qxc just comes up with a better solution on state of the game in 5 seconds
4th August 2012...Never forget.....
Al Bundy
Profile Joined April 2010
7257 Posts
February 14 2012 18:26 GMT
#20
Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.

Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
o choro é livre
1 2 3 4 5 34 35 36 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 15m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 195
StarCraft: Brood War
sSak 1416
Shuttle 1284
Zeus 72
Noble 25
Icarus 14
League of Legends
JimRising 731
Super Smash Bros
amsayoshi175
Other Games
summit1g8577
WinterStarcraft494
ViBE79
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1010
Counter-Strike
PGL128
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 59
• Sammyuel 57
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1191
• Stunt400
• HappyZerGling66
Upcoming Events
SC Evo League
6h 15m
Maestros of the Game
10h 15m
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
13h 15m
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
13h 15m
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Afreeca Starleague
1d 4h
Soulkey vs BeSt
Snow vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
RSL Revival
5 days
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
BSL Team Wars
5 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
GuMiho vs Cham
ByuN vs TriGGeR
Cosmonarchy
6 days
TriGGeR vs YoungYakov
YoungYakov vs HonMonO
HonMonO vs TriGGeR
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS1
WardiTV Summer 2025
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
Sisters' Call Cup
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.