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Active: 1461 users

The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong

Blogs > qxc
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 34 35 36 Next All
qxc
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 04:21:43
February 14 2012 18:10 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Summary:+ Show Spoiler +
The ghost change negatively affects how ghosts work in scenarios besides vs. Tier 3 Zerg for no real reason. Instead of changing Ghost damage to be 25 +25 to Psionic it could be changed it to be 50 base damage minus some amount to massive. This still addresses the Zerg tier 3 issue, gives ghosts a better chance vs. infestors and keeps the rest of the situations where ghosts might be used in tact.


qxc vs. Puma casted by Husky featuring ghosts

Maybe you've heard. Maybe you havn't. Patch 1.4.3 has been announced and due to a tweaking of numbers ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl. While ghosts are indeed being used TvZ all the time, they would no longer be potentially viable in many other situations after said change.

So what's the change?
Snipe currently does 45 damage.
After 1.4.3 Snipe will do 25 +25 to Psionic units

Why?
Blizzard is changing this to reduce the strength of mass ghost armies vs. zerg in the late game - something that seems reasonable.

So what's the problem?
Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable.

Things you can snipe

Marine
Marauder
Ghost
Reaper
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Zergling
Baneling
Roach
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Queen
Infestor
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Workers

What units would you reasonably want to snipe (Where 3-4 snipes makes the ghost roughly pay for itself or where snipe is a good response as in the case of broodlord/viking)

[image loading]

[image loading]

Things you want to snipe
Marine
Marauder
Reaper
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Baneling
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Infestor
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Workers



You can see that basically all terran bio is vulnerable to snipe as well as some specific units from zerg. The most notable are banelings and mutalisks.

Now separate into 2 groups - post patch - those that would take less damage and those that would take more.

Less
marine
marauder
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
workers

More
Infestor
High Templar
Dark Templar

[image loading]

This isn't just a small nerf being proposed. It's almost a 50% reduction in damage. It'd be like if marines now did 4 base damage. It's a big decrease and any unit that would take 25 damage instead of the old 45 wouldn't be worth sniping anymore. The ghost just wouldn't be cost efficient.

Herein lies the problem. This change affects a lot more than just tier 3 Zerg. All of a sudden ghosts are not really cost efficient at all vs. anything that isn't psionic. This change would ruin possible innovation and uses for snipe in other situations.

[image loading]

Cool Situations before

One shotting banelings with snipe to protect your bio clump - not possible after the change

Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd

Using snipe to fend off muta harrass - again. 25 damage per shot means 5 snipes vs. just 3. Plus that assumes you're even able to click the same muta 5 times.

My personal favorite: opening fast ghosts TvT and using snipe to one shot marines - again not possible after the change

[image loading]

Have we seen these situations before? Not really. Maybe once? Maybe almost never, but the point is that if Blizzard changes Ghosts in the proposed way we won't. Not now, not ever. This change kills potential innovation and interesting play. But the ghost vs. Tier 3 Zerg relationship can be fixed while keeping the ghost in tact in other situations.

Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive
. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful.

Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations.

A final note of consideration against the proposed change:

Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.

Now we just need Blizzard to know. Show your friends. Tweet about it. Discuss it on Reddit. If Blizzard hears us talking they will listen. We just need to be loud enough. Please, don't let Blizzard kill ghosts. They've barely had a chance to live.



****
ProgamerDesigner of Aeon's End
Frostfire
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States419 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:13:51
February 14 2012 18:13 GMT
#2
I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.

And I'm zerg.
"In solitude, we are least alone"
Baituri
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands1501 Posts
February 14 2012 18:14 GMT
#3
This is how changes should be done. Don't forget the big picture to change the thing you want to change. I was impressed when I heard it on State of the Game, and I still am.

Great blog!
Bwall
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden145 Posts
February 14 2012 18:15 GMT
#4
Your posts are always interesting to read, well done!
Frostfire
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States419 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:17:24
February 14 2012 18:15 GMT
#5
Actually, now that I think about it, snipe should do 45 base damage and have the damage reduced with armor upgrades. Maybe combine the energy upgrade with 5 more damage to snipe? Something that allows snipe damage to be upgraded VERY SLIGHTLY 10 (10 at MOST) but have the damage reduced by armor.

That would be more balanced, at least in my platinum eyes.
"In solitude, we are least alone"
archangel967
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada111 Posts
February 14 2012 18:16 GMT
#6
I still think this change (or one with similar numbers) is reasonable. The ghost and specifically the snipe ability was not meant to be an answer to everything. I think changing this will only be good.

And in regards to the comments being made here and by others about how this will change the matchup. The matchups are constantly changing whether from patching or from shifts in the metagame. I don't feel it's reasonable to expect the game to remain the same so you can perfect your strategies. As a viewer more than a player this only makes the game more interesting for me. I appreciate that it's difficulty to deal with these shifts as the one that is playing with them day to day but I still don't think this change is as game breaking as is being advertised.
When you're ahead, get further ahead.
Leargle
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
February 14 2012 18:16 GMT
#7
qxc for balance designer
Maphack supply depot overlord
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
February 14 2012 18:17 GMT
#8
I really enjoy your blogposts man, keep em comming

When I think about the Snipe-nerf, I really always come back to "I want back my Irradiate!"

I completely agree with your points though dude, thank you for sharing
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
February 14 2012 18:18 GMT
#9
QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.
blaaaaaarghhhhh
Matiz_pl
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland163 Posts
February 14 2012 18:19 GMT
#10
Really good post, altough im zerg player i think the current proposed change by blizzard is bad and is taking away (such heavy nerf is basically a removal) a really cool ablility and can make late game zvt unwinnable for terran. Instead of 50% nerf to all nonpsionic targets, 25% to massive and no change to non-massive sounds reasonable.
"Competitive gaming consists of one and only one rule. You use what wins. " - FuumaMonou
Gheed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States972 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#11
Thanks for posting this, I haven't seen a single pro say the nerf is good as they posted it.
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#12
On February 15 2012 03:18 Moochlol wrote:
QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.


I bet there is a bigger chance of a dev seeing it, if it's posted here than if its on the B.net forums.
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#13
why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.
keep it deep! @zulison
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
February 14 2012 18:20 GMT
#14
Would love to see it changed to damage reduction vs massive, would make more sense that way
Balgrog
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1221 Posts
February 14 2012 18:21 GMT
#15
Awesome blog, hopefully blizzard will read this and take it into consideration.
The only way to attack structure is with chaos.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-14 18:23:17
February 14 2012 18:22 GMT
#16
On February 15 2012 03:20 zul wrote:
why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.


Because combating infestor on top of ZT3 is very difficult(3 snipes to kill infestor), banking on the infestor taking some random extra dmg to kill it when it sits @ 1 health or something is kinda dumb, he is making the math like this so it 2 shots infestor, which is totally valid given the situation.
blaaaaaarghhhhh
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
February 14 2012 18:24 GMT
#17
For the record you cannot snipe probes they are strictly mechanical.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
[NSL]BansheeHero
Profile Joined February 2011
Czech Republic143 Posts
February 14 2012 18:24 GMT
#18
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote:
I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.

And I'm zerg.

thats the same wrong done worse. We still enjoy all the negatives QxC mentioned, but ghost will still be strong against broodlord.
Today I settled all family business so don't tell me what is imba. Admit what you did.
CrtBalorda
Profile Joined December 2011
Slovenia704 Posts
February 14 2012 18:24 GMT
#19
Waw a lot of effor put into this. I completly aggree. A bit wierd that blizzard made this change when they put so much thought into thair balance changes and qxc just comes up with a better solution on state of the game in 5 seconds
4th August 2012...Never forget.....
Al Bundy
Profile Joined April 2010
7257 Posts
February 14 2012 18:26 GMT
#20
Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.

Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
o choro é livre
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