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On February 15 2012 03:42 Torenhire wrote:
So, Al Bundy, you're suggesting that if Zerglings were buffed to do 99999 damage, pros should "adapt to them" and not say "Blizzard you're ruining the damn game"
That's a HUGE exaggeration but it gets my point across - there's valid reasons to complain about games balance. If people didn't speak out about balance issues we would still be on patch 1.0 and everyone would just have to "Deal with it"
Man why the exaggeration? There is no need to go to such extremes, there is an obvious difference between the ghost nerf and your zergling buff, which is unrealistic. Please don't use extreme examples.
The ghost is going to get nerfed, it will not become broken. This nerf is not game-breaking at all, unlike your suggestion.
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I don't know, I think this is a bit silly.
Ghosts are NOT cost-effective vs low tier units. Preserving that piece of the puzzle is almost irrelevant. It's not about innovation, it just doesn't matter. These game scenarios are really not that interesting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311212
Ghosts are basically too cost efficient against BL. The change will make them only cost efficient against infestors, and occasionally cost efficient against BL. We all know that ghost vs infestor is not a completely realistic setup, given how armies are normally positioned.
Right now ghosts get to do a free 180 damage at equal food cost for each BL spawn cycle. After the nerf they will only do 100. This may or may not be reasonable, but we have to remember that there are a lot of units that are extremely cost efficient at what they do. To destroy that in favor of having a unit that is extremely one dimensional. I don't know.
Blizzard has done this throughout the whole game. Instead of having units that are almost ridiculously powerful positionally (mines, tanks, dark swarm lurkers, reavers), they've made the game into one of direct hard counters. Each unit, other than the core infantry units, is specialized to do one thing, and not much else. Watch BW, and you will see how units interact based on positional properties, rather than counters.
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Good write-up and I agree, it's not hard at all for Blizzard to nerf snipe in a way that only makes it worse in the situations where it's deemd too poweful (Zerg T3). It almost seems like some employee had a bet where the psionice attribute would some day be useful ^^
Missing a ghost of a chance pun though, 4/5
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I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost.
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Canada13410 Posts
Other units do +20% to massive like the void ray so why not 50 base (-50% to massive)?
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On February 15 2012 03:55 Torenhire wrote:
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
He is trolling. dont pay attention to the 1 guy here that says that.
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Imagine there's no ghost nerfs...
It's easy if you try.
no tier 3, to stop us
above us, only protoss
Imagine all the Terrans, laddering, for today.
imagine there's no infestors...
it isn't hard to do.
nothing to snipe, or emp.
and no brood lords too.
imagine all the Terrans, living life in peace.
You may say QXC is a dreamer, but he's not the only one.
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On February 15 2012 03:55 ZeromuS wrote:
Other units do +20% to massive like the void ray so why not 50 base (-50% to massive)?
Exactly what I said above, glad to see people on the same page. It makes much more sense to do it this way.
Ghosts are OP against Broodlords - it's a much simpler and MUCH LESS interefering change to just do 50 damage to all minus 25 to Massive units.
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Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
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It is funny, Blizzard said that Infestor, Brood Lord combinations were being looked at in the late game as possibly being overpowered, then Terran adapts and start using ghosts, and now the nerfs are being applied to Terran. Ah back to the drawing board, I can't say that I enjoy the direction of the game at the moment.
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I respectfully disagree with the post, as a Protoss player it's clear that snipe has waaay too many applications and that makes the ghost an automatic tech choice rather than a tech choice that is made based on strategic info. You said yourself in your post (paraphrased) "No longer can snipe: one-shot banelings, one-shot marines, deal with muta harass, take down emp'ed zealots, one-shot workers, waste Zerg tier 3." Just by making that sentence you can plainly see how many applications snipe has, and not only that, how many it excels at. I loved Kaydarin Amulet but yeah, it was a little too good. No one likes a nerf but some are warranted.
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Yeah, made the same suggestion on reddit right after the anouncement. Make snipe less effective against massive. Increasing the base damage to 50 would mean you can 2 shot zealots and ghosts and 3 shot roaches and 1shot reapers, 4shot corruptors. All things that make ghosts more usable early and mid game and reward skill.
The thing I would change about ghosts is EMP. Increase the radius a little again, but make the ability researchable. EMP is just too strong early against P, but without it late P deathballs are just too easy unstoppable a-moves.
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On February 15 2012 04:00 Moochlol wrote:
Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
He threw four touchdowns in one game man. Legend.
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Hopefully Blizzard either reads this or watches the SoTG you where in, because this is a way better solution.
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Someone made a good point in the main thread that I think deserves attention: There are no other attacks skills or otherwise that do a base damage, but then less to certain types of units. For instance, there are plenty of "20 damage +20 to armored", but absolutely no "40 damage -20 to light". I think at that point you're getting into adding new computations into the game, and may require far more than just a simple patch to fix.
While I agree that the nerf is a little bit much, it's also a much needed nerf to T gameplay vs t3 Z, and am really interested in how it will turn out.
I would like to say that the idea someone had of making snipe 35 damage with a plus to psionic would be a great fix, and honestly believe that's what Blizzard will eventually settle on.
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On February 15 2012 03:55 Torenhire wrote:
I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost.
A quote from a blizzard employee: Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors
Now let's see how qxc uses the snipe ability:
-snipe banelings
-snipe mutas
-snipe zealots
-snipe marines
Please note that while the first two can be seen as legitimate "strategies" from a Terran player's perspective, the last two are not even related to the TvZ matchup. It seems to me that qxc is upset about not longer being able to ABUSE the snipe ability. At the moment the ghost is too versatile TvZ, that's why I think this nerf is reasonable.
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On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote:
Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
And if you remember correctly, BFH is literally gone from the meta-game unless the Terran happens to be going mech. Furthermore, qxc's ENTIRE post was about analysis of the use of the 1.4.3 ghost. If you don't have an issue with increasingly specialized units, I don't think you've read the countless thorough OP/threads explaining why increased specialization differentiates the SC1 and SC2.
On February 15 2012 04:03 Al Bundy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:55 Torenhire wrote:
I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost. A quote from a blizzard employee: Show nested quote +Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors Now let's see how qxc uses the snipe ability: -snipe banelings -snipe mutas -snipe zealots -snipe marines Please note that while the first two can be seen as legitimate "strategies" from a Terran player's perspective, the last two are not even related to the TvZ matchup. It seems to me that qxc is upset about not longer being able to ABUSE the snipe ability. At the moment the ghost is too versatile TvZ, that's why I think this nerf is reasonable.
I don't see your logic here, qxc's point is precisely that Blizzard thinks they're rectifying something very narrowly addressed [TvZ] while screwing up a good situation in other matchups. Qxc's proposal makes sure that the change is played out as Blizzard intends it.
Furthermore, you're just nonsensically calling it "abuse" just because snipe can be used in situations that Blizzard didn't envision it. That makes zero sense. The fact that Blizzard didn't originally think of snipe as an ability to target zealots doesn't mean that ghosts are imba against zealots - far from it, it's a micro-intensive application [that must be accomplished in the midst of multi-tasking the emp, stim, stutter step, dealing with templar/targeting colossi with vikings etc].
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On February 15 2012 04:00 Moochlol wrote:
Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
Fuck you dude.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 15 2012 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:00 Moochlol wrote:
Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft. He threw four touchdowns in one game man. Legend.
Exactly, using his name in vain as the user here on TL is a fucking disgrace. 4 touchdowns in a single game.....cmon
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EPT
