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On February 23 2012 07:23 Marcuz wrote:
Blizzard could not use this idea, or any other one suggested by the players for it would be the start of a pr nightmare. Any time a patch would come out, players would be able to challenge them and use the "Snipe nerf" as a reference. Now changes in the past have been influenced by pros, but the plain fact is that those pros were not terran. I know this sounds horrible, but you have to realise that this game represents a MASSIVE investment for Blizzard, one that they are fighting very hard to protect the future of, very simply demonstrated in the massive amount of financial expenditure on advertisements of the 2 expansions, compared to the investment in the current game. And they could be using this as a way to squelch the terran op hatred that has haunted this game since release. This terran stigma NEEDS to be taken into account, showcased in part by the ridiculous " marine op, stop complaining" posts in this thread. It is this hostile view towards terrans, seen in almost every outlet of this sport, from casters to this very forum. To prove my theory go ask any one who knows OF starcraft 2 but does not play, I bet at least 6/10 will identify the terran "problem" without knowing anything about the history.
did the Ghost and mule need to be nerfed? I dont know I am not a pro, but I do know good business, and this patch will secure a larger number of players for HOTS then a even slightly pro terran change would..
edit-by pro terran change I mean a re-vamp of the proposed Ghost nerf, not a pro-terran patch. Also think of the timing of this patch and others, they do not care about the proplayers, they are securing investments from the bronze-diamond players, ezpz
I would rather say they don't know what they are doing.
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I find qxc's arguments unconvincing. The ghost was and is the only grounded spell caster that can attack (i.e. can hurt the enemy without spells). Qxc says the nerf makes the ghost a specified anti-spell caster unit, but doesn't actually make the argument, just says it as fact. "All of a sudden ghost aren't cost efficient against anything other than casters." Cool that you think that, now back it up with something, anything. 25 is a significant hit to most troops. Ghost can attack, cloak, and only cost 100 gas. I don't think units are supposed to be cost efficient against everything, or even almost everything. A huge obstacle blocking qxc's logic, IMO, is the term "cost efficient." He likes his ghosts to be better-than-cost-efficient against everything other than ultras and blords.
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On February 23 2012 09:59 mr.reee wrote:
I find qxc's arguments unconvincing. The ghost was and is the only grounded spell caster that can attack (i.e. can hurt the enemy without spells). Qxc says the nerf makes the ghost a specified anti-spell caster unit, but doesn't actually make the argument, just says it as fact. "All of a sudden ghost aren't cost efficient against anything other than casters." Cool that you think that, now back it up with something, anything. 25 is a significant hit to most troops. Ghost can attack, cloak, and only cost 100 gas. I don't think units are supposed to be cost efficient against everything, or even almost everything. A huge obstacle blocking qxc's logic, IMO, is the term "cost efficient." He likes his ghosts to be better-than-cost-efficient against everything other than ultras and blords.
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.
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Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong.
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I agree with qxc.. i mean really what the freaking heck are u gonna do with ghosts now that is worth anything.. I mean really? This patch is really stupid blizzard u have really done it this time..
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On February 23 2012 10:51 qxc wrote:
Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong.
The bitterness of past tense  I feel the same way. I seriously wanted to experiment more with the ghost in TvT, as I had done very little, plus at diamond level changing things up is still pretty sloppy sometimes, but anyways, there's really no point now. Sure, ghosts will appear in late game situations as they sometimes do, but I feel something very beautiful was removed from the game. Plus any bonus you can get from them vs zealots is totally gone, unless you count +3 damage from snipe's 25 damage vs +26-4=22 damage from 3/3 vs 3/3. So meh.
They can always change it to 50(25massive) in the future, here's hoping -_-
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Even though I disagree with a strong nerf to massive, they should have at least done something similar to what qxc suggested or just cap their energy at 75 or 100 or whatever.
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agree wholeheartedly with you qxc
i preached the exact same thing
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I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.[/QUOTE]
Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really?
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On February 23 2012 10:51 qxc wrote:
Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong.
So was the Infestor nerf. You'll get over it, it gets easier....I promise. *hug*
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On February 24 2012 05:05 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 10:51 qxc wrote:
Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong. So was the Infestor nerf. You'll get over it, it gets easier....I promise. *hug*
I thought it was a buff...wasn't it less duration but more damage? Also, they nerfed fungal to not hit air but reversed that when similar outcry took place. The only nerf I can think of is neural parasite. Even if I'm remembering incorrectly at least the infestor has 2 useful spells still, the ghost now has one (which was recently nerfed as well) although the ghost did get a small cost decrease.
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On February 24 2012 04:34 mr.reee wrote:
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.
Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really? [/QUOTE]
The problem with newer posters is that they don't really read things carefully. I would gladly trade the attack ability and cloak for fungal/storm which have far greater dps, cloak, as I already mentioned and you completely failed to read, is only a supplement to other abilities (like snipe, which is now useless, so by extension cloak is much more useless). The attack, again, is pointless, because its dps is piss-poor compared to most other units.
You also know things are bad when even IdrA is saying that the nerf is bad [see his recent interview that also discussed his games against aLive].
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May have been referring to the speed nerf.
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On February 24 2012 10:06 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:34 mr.reee wrote:
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao. Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really?
The problem with newer posters is that they don't really read things carefully. I would gladly trade the attack ability and cloak for fungal/storm which have far greater dps, cloak, as I already mentioned and you completely failed to read, is only a supplement to other abilities (like snipe, which is now useless, so by extension cloak is much more useless). The attack, again, is pointless, because its dps is piss-poor compared to most other units.
You also know things are bad when even IdrA is saying that the nerf is bad [see his recent interview that also discussed his games against aLive].[/QUOTE]
how is snipe useless? Ghosts are just as effective against protoss as they used to be... and against infestor play. So they were weakened in one MU. I feel for the T players who have to deal with it. I really do. However ghosts in general are still a good unit. And as for the 100 gas... you need to spend gas on tech.. I'm sorry? lol ghosts are still able to emp, use nukes for positional control and snipe ht's/infestors at long range. I think it's better to just get used to these changes and move on.
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Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 11:31 OmniEulogy wrote:On February 24 2012 10:06 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On February 24 2012 04:34 mr.reee wrote:
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao. Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really? The problem with newer posters is that they don't really read things carefully. I would gladly trade the attack ability and cloak for fungal/storm which have far greater dps, cloak, as I already mentioned and you completely failed to read, is only a supplement to other abilities (like snipe, which is now useless, so by extension cloak is much more useless). The attack, again, is pointless, because its dps is piss-poor compared to most other units. You also know things are bad when even IdrA is saying that the nerf is bad [see his recent interview that also discussed his games against aLive]. how is snipe useless? Ghosts are just as effective against protoss as they used to be... and against infestor play. So they were weakened in one MU. I feel for the T players who have to deal with it. I really do. However ghosts in general are still a good unit. And as for the 100 gas... you need to spend gas on tech.. I'm sorry? lol ghosts are still able to emp, use nukes for positional control and snipe ht's/infestors at long range. I think it's better to just get used to these changes and move on.
In the context of the post, snipe is functionally useless against any non-caster unit. My argument is not that "ghosts can't do anything," but that it's not unreasonable for ghosts to have a role outside of merely countering spellcasters [but under Blizzard logic, units apparently all have to fit into a very specialized role, which is really bad design as many other lengthy OPs have explained]. They were not merely weakened in one role [against bl/ultras], but weakened against marines, banelings, and zealots, which are all creative and potentially useful roles of ghosts.
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On February 23 2012 07:23 Marcuz wrote:
Blizzard could not use this idea, or any other one suggested by the players for it would be the start of a pr nightmare. Any time a patch would come out, players would be able to challenge them and use the "Snipe nerf" as a reference. Now changes in the past have been influenced by pros, but the plain fact is that those pros were not terran. I know this sounds horrible, but you have to realise that this game represents a MASSIVE investment for Blizzard, one that they are fighting very hard to protect the future of, very simply demonstrated in the massive amount of financial expenditure on advertisements of the 2 expansions, compared to the investment in the current game. And they could be using this as a way to squelch the terran op hatred that has haunted this game since release. This terran stigma NEEDS to be taken into account, showcased in part by the ridiculous " marine op, stop complaining" posts in this thread. It is this hostile view towards terrans, seen in almost every outlet of this sport, from casters to this very forum. To prove my theory go ask any one who knows OF starcraft 2 but does not play, I bet at least 6/10 will identify the terran "problem" without knowing anything about the history.
did the Ghost and mule need to be nerfed? I dont know I am not a pro, but I do know good business, and this patch will secure a larger number of players for HOTS then a even slightly pro terran change would..
edit-by pro terran change I mean a re-vamp of the proposed Ghost nerf, not a pro-terran patch. Also think of the timing of this patch and others, they do not care about the proplayers, and possible trying to rig the MLG finals by giving zergs and protosss a better chance against terrans. They are securing investments from the majority of players, ezpz. Also think about how it would look to the entire community if such a massive reduction was made to the original nerf on the account of players suggestions, the balance team would look incompetent.
They did cave in for the zergs. When the infestor was getting nerfed zergs QQed like they had all be turned into 13yr old spoiled brats & got Blizz to change the NP from ''not being able to target massive'' to just a small range nerf.
I do agree they shouldn't base their decisions on what the idiots (like you and me) on B.net forums, TL, & reddit say. Maybe listen to the pros & not just the zerg loud mouths that always QQ (Idra). But they do listen, at least to the majority ( & that's zerg ). Most of the players from gold & up are zerg players. Below that it's terrans who have the majority, but at that level, they aren't interested in e-sports & rarely care about the intricacies of the game & are just playing it really casually.
Sucks that terran have the weakest psi unit. Snipe that no longer works well on zerg units & emp that is only good vs toss, worthless vs terran. Compare that to infestors with fungal & NP & IT which are SO STRONG vs all races (you see them in ALL matchups) or high templars with feedback (used in all matchups) & more importantly,storm (also used in all matchups). Not to mention archons.
I guess Blizz feels that terran has enough powerful ''base'' units (it's hard to disagree with this & not sound like a bronze noob or an incredibly biased terran) & don't need another one.
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really? all these comments about terran are still OP its ok" thats some bull right there. and some other idiot posted "Stop crying same thing happened to HT when we lost our +25 energy up"......... this is completly diferent dipstick... That was nered because players could WARP in HT anywhere basically and just start storming which was completly OP. There was no need for such a dramatic nerf for terrans considering we barely have any good units this game, although i love it, sucks compared to broodwar.. i mean our t3 SUCKS.. i mean really...
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I basically agree with all qxc said but he missed one thing: If ghosts did 50 damage to non-massive biological units it would be possible to 3-shot zealots. I would suggest 25, +25 vs psionic, +20 vs non massive
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They did cave in for the zergs. When the infestor was getting nerfed zergs QQed like they had all be turned into 13yr old spoiled brats & got Blizz to change the NP from ''not being able to target massive'' to just a small range nerf.
Really? They buffed fungal once (shorter duration but more dmg) because it was really bad, then nerfed it (less dmg), then nerfed NP with "a small range nerf" that made NP go unused in pro play to this day. Yes, they sure give those zergs everything they ask for..
On February 24 2012 22:34 TotalNightmare wrote:
I basically agree with all qxc said but he missed one thing: If ghosts did 50 damage to non-massive biological units it would be possible to 3-shot zealots. I would suggest 25, +25 vs psionic, +20 vs non massive
A snipe that does 70 against casters.. a little OP don't you think? 
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Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
Please qxc, after your really good explanation this cry isnt necessary... it sounds so pedantic, man...
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EPT
