EPTThe Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 11
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Striborg
United States47 Posts
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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:13 RoboBob wrote: Well, be careful what you wish for. Both Idra and Nestea have made a case for nerfing Ghosts into the ground in numerous interviews. Pro feedback is not always the best way to balance a game. Pros may have the best experience and knowledge, but they also have the worst bias. Noone questions that ghosts needed a nerf, but there is a difference between nerfing something into the ground and balancing it appropriately. I don't think any mature, clear thinking pro would logically suggest a unit like the ghost being made redundant. | ||
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AnxAir
United States9 Posts
This isn't just a small nerf being proposed. It's almost a 50% reduction in damage. It'd be like if marines now did 4 base damage. It's a big decrease and any unit that would take 25 damage instead of the old 45 wouldn't be worth sniping anymore. The ghost just wouldn't be cost efficient. This is absolutely untrue for the late game TvZ issue. This has to be thought of in an actual game scenario. Terrans shift queue up snipes. So what's going to be different after this patch? The Terran is going to have to shift click a brood lord 4 extra times, and there will be one other minimal delay in the 4 extra snipe animations. So being very generous, the Brood Lord in question will live maybe 1-2 game seconds longer with the nerf, and accomplish Blizzard's desired goal by making it cost the 100 extra energy to kill a BL. That's why on paper, it looks like "OMG 50% NERF WHAT?!?!" but will change very little about late game TvZ except the fact that more ghosts and energy is needed for large scale battles with lots of Zerg T3. However, like I said, they do need to change Snipe to 45 base damage and then -20 vs massive (so the 25 stays the same) because ghosts do have other uses than in late game TvZ. But other than that, this change is not as unreasonable as people are making it out to be. | ||
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TheRealPaciFist
United States1049 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:00 linduxed wrote: I'm in full agreement with this blog. Something tells me however that this will not be addressed in this patch, I think Blizzard will ship the patch, and in the best case scenario it will be retracted later on. What's extra problematic is that SC2 doesn't use subtractive damage, but additive damage. This in itself is not a problem, but qxc's change would need subtractive damage, and that would (if I'm not mistaken) the Ghost the only unit with that kind of damage. I don't think Blizzard would like that. So as said, I agree with the blog, but I sadly don't think it will be fixed right now. Easy enough fix. Just make Snipe have bonus damage to non-massive. On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense. Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop. Great write up  Blizzard confuses me so much. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:58 Spicy_Curry wrote: arent banelings psionic? There's so much room left over in their bodies aside from the acid for a large psionic brain, amirite? | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
Still 2 shot infestors, do reasonable damage to other units and fix the broodlord problem without hurting tvz or any other match-up for that matter. even as a zerg player i dont think snipe has any utility now in tvz other than trying to snipe infestors which makes it more like a viking or a corruptor in that it only has one use. To me having to counter a caster with another caster that has no other use exept killing infestors is pretty fucking stupid. Cant even 1 shot i ling that costs 25 mins and 0.5 supply? Please. Even as a zerg player i can say thats retarded. On February 15 2012 06:28 Saltydizzle wrote: The patch is completely necessary. no one will disagree with you. The extent of the nerf is not necessary though. | ||
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gauz
Sweden16 Posts
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theprofessor
Japan108 Posts
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how2TL
1197 Posts
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:48 theprofessor wrote: i completely disagree. i think the change is needed. Care to explain why this change is worse than the blizzard proposed change? | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
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MandoRelease
France374 Posts
I don't like the idea of having straight up 50 base damage for the snipe. Here's why. The first thing this patch wants to address is late game TvZ. And though I totaly agree with qxc that we haven't seen much use of ghosts in early/mid game, qxc said that there are situations that we won't be able to see anymore at such stage, and I don't think these situation should be seen in the first place. Going fast HT or fast Infestor is something that you can do in very specific situations, or else you get roll over (because you don't have much of anything once you run out of energy if you went for these gas expensive unit very early). The ghost already has 20 base damage against light, if you add 50 base with the snipe, I think the array of situations in which you could go early ghost would be too wide, compared to the other 2 races. Plus, since we haven't seen these situations, we don't know if the ghost is too strong or not strong enough in these situations. And this 50 damage base would be a slight buff. For the sake of the discussion, let's say that what I just said is plain wrong, and that we just won't see much of the ghost at all post patch. Then I believe that this is to be addressed in another patch, and not in this one, mainly because that is not the main focus. If it turns out that the ghost is just too weak for mid-game play, unlike the infestor, then I believe that should be dealt with in another patch, when we actually have data to work on (unlike this one). As the patch is, it may actually give us data to work on the ghost for these situations, because there are changes. And maybe change the ghost later on. With 50 base damage for snipe, almost nothing changes, so we won't have another point of view on the ghost and these situations. I don't know, in my mind it made kind of sense. Maybe I did not express myself correctly. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10231 Posts
25 +25 is too much nerf and you only get 5 damage plus vs psi. | ||
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MrCash
United States1504 Posts
This topic has been well represented on STOG, Reddit and most importantly on TL (probably on battle net forums too). Now let's see if they simply like to read and have a giggle or if they are truly willing to implement changes based on reason. I just imagine the guy who came up with the idea of the current nerf opposing this to no end, so as not to look silly for not coming up with this himself and people taunting of him that someone else should be getting paid to do his job. But that's just my wild imagination at work. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense. Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop. Great write up But it's not completely useless. It's probably one of the most versatile units in the game even with the proposed changes by Blizzard. Are people forgetting EMP, nuke and cloak? Its really good base damage to light units? I actually agree with QXC's changes, but I disagree with all of the people suddenly calling the unit 'useless' because of Blizzard's changes. That's just dishonest. As a side note, I never liked snipe in the first place. I don't think Ghosts need an extra way of dealing with casters (they have EMP), and I don't think Terran need an extra way of disposing of banelings etc. Oh well. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
From a more neutral point of view its really cool to see pro players get more experienced with their spell casters bringing some pretty interesting exchanges between races, but maybe ghosts are starting to get over used in TvZ like infestors were starting to get overused in ZvP. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
PDD has a damned list of applicable units in the tooltip. This minus to massive would actually be far more elegant. | ||
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