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I already agreed with you when you talked about this on State of the Game recently, qxc. Instead of lowering the damage of Snipe across the board, massive units should simply receive less damage to make Tier 3 zerg sniping a little harder.
Well done blog post. 5/5
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Always been a huge fan of qXc's ideas. He doesn't jump to conclusions without thinking things over for the best results. This just shows that.
P.s. The appearance on SotG was great!
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On February 15 2012 05:30 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:28 Iyerbeth wrote:On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote:
why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons.. The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number. I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be. As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
Personally I wouldn't mind that, but for the 5 damage being so minor given how Ghosts are actually used that just seems nedlessly complicated. I mean technically even 46 base damage would solve the issue. But really anything around that I'd be fine with too.
Really I was just addressing the concerns in the other post, as someone who is a happy Zerg player seeing Ghosts get nerfed.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:34 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:30 Elyvilon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:28 Iyerbeth wrote:On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote:
why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons.. The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number. I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be. As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ? Personally I wouldn't mind that, but for the 5 damage being so minor given how Ghosts are actually used that just seems nedlessly complicated. I mean technically even 46 base damage would solve the issue. But really anything around that I'd be fine with too. Really I was just addressing the concerns in the other post, as someone who is a happy Zerg player seeing Ghosts get nerfed.
Yeah, 46-47 damage (-21-22 vs massive) seems a lot better. Good call.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 15 2012 05:28 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote:
Things you want to snipe
Marine
Marauder
Reaper
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Baneling
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Infestor
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Workers
Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd
And that's the problem right there. EMP, extremely good versus everything Protoss. Snipe, very good vs anything Zerg. This is so much the case that the other good caster unit of Terran (Ravens) isn't even used. Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote:Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd Perhaps that isn't how it should be, however? For example High Templars can't start one shotting units after they have stormed the entire army. They can't even attack normally. However, I think the Ghost change is perhaps a bit excessive in some ways but your suggestion would still make Ghosts a killer unit against everything and even more so than before against certain units.
It's not that ghosts are so good that ravens aren't used. It's that ravens are so ineffective in doing anything other than providing mobile detection and PDDs. Snipe is actually NOT good vs everything zerg, it's just in the math. Ghosts without energy do something like 13.3 base DPS, which is double the base dps of unstimmed, unupgraded marines, so they are not cost effective at all without energy. Ghosts cost 200/100, high templar cost 50/150 and can morph into archons in pairs.. The comparisons you make are fairly void of any math, which invalidates them.
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On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote:
why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
Combat shield marines have 55hp, banshees and archons aren't biologic.
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And Blizzard said pros don't know anything about balance. The fools.
Simply transforming +25 psionic to -25 massive is a great and amazingly simple idea that I wonder why Blizzard didn't come up with themselves.
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On February 15 2012 05:36 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:34 Iyerbeth wrote:On February 15 2012 05:30 Elyvilon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:28 Iyerbeth wrote:On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote:
why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons.. The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number. I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be. As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ? Personally I wouldn't mind that, but for the 5 damage being so minor given how Ghosts are actually used that just seems nedlessly complicated. I mean technically even 46 base damage would solve the issue. But really anything around that I'd be fine with too. Really I was just addressing the concerns in the other post, as someone who is a happy Zerg player seeing Ghosts get nerfed. Yeah, 46-47 damage (-21-22 vs massive) seems a lot better. Good call.
lol. 
I should also add I was using that 46 example as a kind of throw away joke, not a real suggestion. It would fix the issue of Infestor regen, in the same way +5 psionic would, or 50 base damage or any of those options. I don't really mind how it ends up was the point, just that I agree it would be nice for Terran if Snipe would 2 shot Infestors, but that the change vs tier 3 Zerg is needed.
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I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that the change vs zerg T3 was not needed, lol. Maybe the most pro-terran fanboys.
I'm sticking with the suggestion qxc threw out, 50 damage base - 25 to massive. If Blizzard thinks that 50 base damage is too much, then they can work on a 45 + 5 Psionic - 25 Massive or w/e. I really think that's the best bet. As a lot of us do here, anyways.
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Thanks, good read. This has my vote. Mostly due to ghost innovation being stopped by this patch.
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qxc, that is by far the most elegant solution I've seen. Why nerf the ghost's limited versatility when fixing the problem (sniping hive tech units) could be dealt with directly? The game is much more entertaining when units are designed for versatility, none of this hard-counter caster vs caster baloney.
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On February 15 2012 05:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Thanks, good read. This has my vote. Mostly due to ghost innovation being stopped by this patch.
Exactly, I tried to emphasize this in my post to Al Bundy. It's not so much that 25 + 25 Psionic is game-ruining or whatever, or that it will make the ghost 100% useless...it's just that it all of a sudden makes the ghost worthless to anything but very specific situations. There's no reason for that, it only needs fixing in one specific way right now. If it turns out that 50 - 25 massive is imba or whatever, then they can scale it back down to 45 - 25 to massive, or whatever.
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I completely agree with you. I had the same idea yesterday, and I was actually gonna make a post about it after reading this. I really do think the ghost nerf is needed against the massive zerg units, but that is really it. I've had someone use early ghosts against me in tvt and my god was that painful. Before I knew what happened I lost 2 marines.
Props on the article QxC. It was well done. I hope blizz sees it.
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I don't understand the point of these conversation when everyone just hand waves, and brings no numbers or math to back up their ideas.
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I agree with this, and the other points brought up in SotG ep 62.
At the very least, snipe could go down to 35 base, any lower and snipe just becomes almost pointless. Against DTs/ HTs/ infestors and even other ghosts, EMP is a better option than snipe anyways (despite the higher mana cost). 25 + 25 will make snipe even rarer than neural parasite.
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On February 15 2012 05:48 architecture wrote:
I don't understand the point of these conversation when everyone just hand waves, and brings no numbers or math to back up their ideas.
What do you mean? What numbers or math do you need other than what has been posted?
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Loved the ghost in tvt, it is good vs hellion drop, extremely good vs banshee and marines, now I wouldn't be able to use it sincce marines will be too effective and a ghost drop to kill workers wouldn't cross my mind anymore...
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Took the words from my mouth. Great job qxc.
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Thanks, qxc. Hopefully someone will listen to you.
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EPT
