EPTGhosts deserve this, just because all the trouble they've caused through the year(s)
The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 8
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ThirdEye
Norway15 Posts
Ghosts deserve this, just because all the trouble they've caused through the year(s) | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:11 Jayecks wrote: Agreement. I would really like to hear a valid counter-argument on their part. It even seems that implementing his solution (raising base slightly and adding a -massive modifier) is just as simple as their solution (lowering the damage and adding +psionic modifier). Isn't it obvious? 1-shoting Zerglings with snipe is just way OP XD | ||
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
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SC2NeCro
Canada507 Posts
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
That being said, I prefer the 25+25 to what we had before...the lost utility of Ghosts TvT (where they are important but not standard) and vs banelings/mutalisks (which Terran can deal with well enough sans Ghosts) is worth the balancing of lategame ZvT (though if Zerg becomes too strong now we'll be second-guessing the change, but I think Terran will still thrive at high levels as it always seems to do). | ||
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nukkuj
Finland403 Posts
I hope Blizzard reads the thread. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
 Take not BLIZZARD | ||
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Orzabal
France287 Posts
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Haustka
United States221 Posts
if u want it to be balanced qxc, there's answer for you, no more snipe ability for ghosts. or id say even less damage on snipe to balance this game. | ||
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
We're meant to use infestors to fungal - when they get 2 shot? or we're meant to get ultras/broodlords in range then fungal then baneling? I agree with you that making them viable in TvT would be great and improve the matchup depth but having them 1 shot banelings and 2 shot mutas is still debateable , especially when other terran units have great efficiency vs those units anyway. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Ghosts do 30 base damage to massive units Increase the Battlecruiser Air to Air attack damage from 6 to 8 (to match its ground attack). Leave it's Air to Ground attack the same. Viola. Zerg T3 will be better against Ghosts, and Infestors will be the same against Ghosts. But Terran will gain a new high tech way to efficiently kill Zerg T3 without disrupting early/midgame TvZ. Lategame TvT and TvP will also be slightly improved, but not so drastically that it will unbalance either matchup. (especially considering that Protoss is getting a Phoenix buff...although I will admit that both the Fleet Beacon and Interceptors could use some cost reduction on top of current changes) | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
Very well presented. I hope Blizz reads this. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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Ripps
Canada97 Posts
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage? why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive. to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units. oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall) everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument) 50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons.. Combat shield marines have 55 hp and therefore will not die to a 50 damage snipe without stimming, in which case they would die to a 45 damage snipe. You cannot snipe banshees. Ghosts being able to 2 shot other ghosts instead of 3 shotting them wouldn't make anything imbalanced. As I said earlier, the only thing that changes significantly is that roaches and zealots now die in 3 shots instead of taking 3 snipes and then having 10 or 15 hp left over. On February 15 2012 05:21 RoboBob wrote: Ghosts do 45 base damage to non-massive units Ghosts do 30 base damage to massive units Increase the Battlecruiser Air to Air attack damage from 6 to 8 (to match its ground attack). Leave it's Air to Ground attack the same. Viola. Zerg T3 will be better against Ghosts, while staying the same vs Infestors. But Terran will gain a new high tech way to efficiently kill Zerg T3 without disrupting early/midgame TvZ. Lategame TvT and TvP will also be slightly improved, but not so drastically that it will unbalance either matchup. (especially considering that Protoss is getting a Phoenix buff...although I will admit that both the Fleet Beacon and Interceptors could use some cost reduction on top of current changes) The problem with your proposed BC changes is that corruptors hard counter battlecruisers and BCs are not that greatly effective against ultralisks, so zerg can fall back on their tech switching to easily destroy BCs anyway. BCs also only have 6 range and are vulnerable to neural parasite. On February 15 2012 05:19 Haustka wrote: ... how about getting rid of the snipe cause like infestor and high temp, they cant attack units like ghosts do, they have to use the spell to do so. if u want it to be balanced qxc, there's answer for you, no more snipe ability for ghosts. or id say even less damage on snipe to balance this game. No offense, but you clearly have little to no experience in the situations where snipe becomes required. If a protoss spreads his high templar, EMP becomes a big waste of energy and snipe needs to be used instead. On top of that, zerg is already favored in the lategame at the pro level vs terran (and on ladder zerg is even more favored), and removing snipe would mean that zerg could just go BL/infestor into ultra and the terran won't be able to stop it even if he knows it's coming unless he is a far superior player than the zerg or the zerg makes a big mistake in army control. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote: Things you want to snipe Marine Marauder Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Baneling Hydralisk Mutalisk Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd And that's the problem right there. EMP, extremely good versus everything Protoss. Snipe, very good vs anything Zerg. This is so much the case that the other good caster unit of Terran (Ravens) isn't even used. On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote:Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd Perhaps that isn't how it should be, however? For example High Templars can't start one shotting units after they have stormed the entire army. They can't even attack normally. However, I think the Ghost change is perhaps a bit excessive in some ways but your suggestion would still make Ghosts a killer unit against everything and even more so than before against certain units. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage? why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive. to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units. oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall) everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument) 50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons.. The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number. I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be. As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. For the same reason they also couldn't 3 shot Banshees, at best they could EMP their energy off and auto attack, neither of which would be affected. | ||
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CableSCES
United States367 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:28 Iyerbeth wrote: The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number. I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be. As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ? | ||
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:28 Iyerbeth wrote: The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number. I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be. As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. For the same reason they also couldn't 3 shot Banshees, at best they could EMP their energy off and auto attack, neither of which would be affected. Was just about to post that. The point of the 25+25 to Psionic was so that ghosts could two-shot infestors with snipe, which is why QXC is using that number. I mean heck even if the change got made to 45 - 20 vs massive it would still be alright. With EMP decreased radius it's hard to hit the amount of infestors you need while not getting fungalfucked. On February 15 2012 05:30 Elyvilon wrote: So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ? That would be best case scenario I think, if that amount of modifiers were allowed. | ||
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