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Red Orchestra: OstFront is my favorite multiplayer FPS. It is basically ArmA or Operation: Flashpoint, but with all the hours of walking between fights removed.
It is a very realistic FPS set on the Eastern Front of WW2. Damage is very realistic, a single hit from rifles will usually kill, as are the ballistics. Players must aim ahead of their target if it is moving, and must brace their gun on objects in the environment to steady their aim. SMG's have huge recoil, and while ballistically they are just as accurate as rifles, you will never be able to hold your aim steady enough to take advantage of that. Last, and most importantly, sprinting will drain your stamina. When your stamina is low, and you are tired, you will have a much more difficult time steadying your aim. This, combined with the admittedly obsolete graphics, and the fact that a single hit will kill you, makes Red Orchestra 1 much more about being intelligent than most FPS's. You have to constantly be aware of your surroundings, and aware of what the opposing team is doing. You will NOT be able to react instantly and nail that machine gunner on the other side of the field, so unlike in most FPS's, where you just walk out and try to out-fight your opponent, you need to be able to outwit them, and get in a position where your weapon will give you an advantage. If you have an SMG, you try to keep to cover, and slowly work you way off to a flank, so you can get close and kill him before he can bring his MG to bear. If you have a rifle, you try to get away, and in cover, yet still have a clear shot. You will be able to land the precise shot and kill him, while his MG is not precise enough for him to hit you, thanks to the distance and cover.
This gets really complex when you start talking about fights that are more than just 1v1. You end up with an excellent game where a good team is one where every part is performing as it should. It isn't about how well the team is coordinated, but rather how well each individual player on the team knows their role. Riflemen usually need to stay back, and slowly work their way forward, to pave the way for SMG soldiers to get in close for the final blow. MG's focus on covering major avenues of attack. Snipers either deny areas or focus on killing high value targets (more on HVT's in a subsequent blog). Squad leaders focus on throwing smoke grenades to cover their troops, and lead any major engagements. When one part stops doing its job, the whole team suffers. SMG soldiers and riflemen will get cut to pieces if the Squad leaders can't keep the smoke grenades coming. Riflemen can't keep the enemy down if the sniper hasn't been killing enemy MG's. In the end, while it is still important to be physically skilled, players do still have to land shots after all; it becomes much more about mental skill.
Red Orchestra 2 changes things up. Players often complained, "Look how slow this guy is, it takes him so long to raise and steady his gun, I could do way better IRL." And they're right, the player character IS really slow and weak compared to how he should be in real life. So the devs drastically reduced weapon sway, and you can now raise your gun almost instantly. They also drastically decreased the recoil on SMG's, because again, it wasn't very realistic. They also added in an unlock system, where people who played longer would get slightly improved stats, and some minor upgrades for their guns. These changes drastically reduce the fun of the game in my opinion.
The reduced recoil and weapon sway IS more realistic; a real soldier can hold a gun much more steady than the soldiers in RO1. Real soldiers also DO get better at steadying their aim, and controlling recoil the more they fight, so the upgrades are realistic as well. Except for one HUGE thing. In each of those cases, the soldier is still dealing with those things. He still has to steady his gun, and control the recoil. In RO2 though, its just automatically reduced. The player doesn't need to think about it at all. Same with the upgrades. In real life, the soldier is actively improving. In RO2, the player is just awarded improvements. The big problem with this, is that the game stops being a mental game, and becomes a physical game. Since you can now aim in the blink of an eye, and hold your gun perfectly steady, that MG in my first example now has absolutely no advantage over you. You can aim and fire fast enough where encounters stop being about who had the better position and plan, and instead become about who can fire quicker. Same with the upgrades. In RO1, you, the player simply got better. You had to accept that you were somewhat slow, and had to actually learn how to play. In RO2 though, you only are slow at aiming early on. Once the upgrades start coming, you aim in an instant, and can hold your gun perfectly steady all day. Improving isn't about actual improvement anymore, but rather how long you've played. I put around 200 hours into Red Orchestra 1 last summer alone, and I consider myself to be very good at it. While I never played in any clan matches, I played on servers run by some of the best clans, and I was pretty highly respected there. I remember when I first got the game years ago, I was terrible at it. I would simply treat it like it was any other game. I would just run in and die, over and over, occasionally getting a lucky kill or two. As I played though, I slowly got smarter about it. I learned the ins and outs of the game, what to do and when to do it, and I got better at the physical tasks like aiming and moving quickly between cover. I got better. The game didn't make me better. I still have just as much recoil as anyone else, and my gun still sways just as much as anyone else's, but I am better at dealing with it than someone who just got the game. I still have the weapon sway, but I absolutely never miss a shot with a rifle on a stationary target if they are less than a kilometer away. In RO2 though, since the weapon sway is so reduced and easy to manage, this isn't really much of an accomplishment at all. Just about anyone can do that after 15 hours or so of playing. Both because there is barely any sway to begin with, and that upgrade further reduce it.
Here is the absolute worst part though. Now that it is no longer about mental skill, you lose that awesome dynamic I explained above, where every player needs to be aware of what they should be doing, based on the weapon they have. It doesn't matter if the squad leader has been neglecting his smoke grenade duties, since you can just run out in the open and shoot the MG in the head from 200 yards easy. It doesn't matter if the MG hasn't been thinning their numbers, since you can just walk around landing headshots all day.
Some might say that it being a more physical game is a good thing. Look at counterstrike and quake, they are all about being fast as hell, and they're pretty cool. The issue with this is, while it's true the pros ARE skilled, and it IS impressive how fast and accurate they are, but it isn't fun. The only reason they win engagements is because they were faster. It isn't nearly as rewarding as a game where you have to outsmart your opponent. All you can say really about a good CS player, is that he is good at landing quick headshots. It doesn't matter how well he knows the maps, and how tactically brilliant he is, if he can't land 90% of all headshot attempts. With RO1 though, you had really interesting engagements, where one side comes out on top because they took advantage of the terrain to get their sniper in a position where he could keep MG's down while the SMG's moved up and took the cap. In RO2, the only reason one side ever wins engagements, is because they had guys who could shoot better. Thats it. No tactics. No brilliant maneuvering. Just being quicker.
There IS good news in the end though. The Devs are adding a new mode, called Red Orchestra Classic, which will bring back the weapon sway and crazy recoil, it'll remove the upgrades and skill increases, and it'll keep the good things that RO2 added, like destructible environments, improved ballistics, improved vehicle damage models, and bullet penetration.
 
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Very nice and detailed post. That being said, I dont agree with you on your counterstrike explanation. It's true that in CS a pro player needs to be really quick and accurate , but that is not the only thing needed. If thats all there was to it, you would have 100-200 players all on the same level, all of them unable to gain any advantage. You need to know the maps very well, you need to know when to peek and when not to, you also have to have tactics that allow you a slight advantage going into an engagement with another player. There are many things players do to gain these advantages.
One example being the flashbang. A good player can throw a flashbang out while jumping in front of it at the same time. This completely blinds the enemy if he is looking, and only half blinds you allowing you to still see in front of you well enough to kill the other player. Using that mentality, you can build on that by having your opponent expect such a move, and instead you throw a smoke grenade faking the flashbang attempt. As you throw the smoke grenade you pop out immediately while it is still in the air. Most players will assume its a flashbang, and do a semi spin to block some of the blinding effects. This gives you a clear and easy shot on them as they are totally unaware you popped out with a fake.
There are quite a few other examples of high level thinking / strategy as well, but I feel like I went off topic far enough already. Just wanted to make sure you were aware that there is much more to CS than being the faster shot. If you were to watch a professional CS match and studied each teams movements and strategies, you would certainly see that they are very indepth, and rely on outsmarting the other team.
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On February 10 2012 10:13 eXigent. wrote:
Very nice and detailed post. That being said, I dont agree with you on your counterstrike explanation. It's true that in CS a pro player needs to be really quick and accurate , but that is not the only thing needed. If thats all there was to it, you would have 100-200 players all on the same level, all of them unable to gain any advantage. You need to know the maps very well, you need to know when to peek and when not to, you also have to have tactics that allow you a slight advantage going into an engagement with another player. There are many things players do to gain these advantages.
One example being the flashbang. A good player can throw a flashbang out while jumping in front of it at the same time. This completely blinds the enemy if he is looking, and only half blinds you allowing you to still see in front of you well enough to kill the other player. Using that mentality, you can build on that by having your opponent expect such a move, and instead you throw a smoke grenade faking the flashbang attempt. As you throw the smoke grenade you pop out immediately while it is still in the air. Most players will assume its a flashbang, and do a semi spin to block some of the blinding effects. This gives you a clear and easy shot on them as they are totally unaware you popped out with a fake.
There are quite a few other examples of high level thinking / strategy as well, but I feel like I went off topic far enough already. Just wanted to make sure you were aware that there is much more to CS than being the faster shot. If you were to watch a professional CS match and studied each teams movements and strategies, you would certainly see that they are very indepth, and rely on outsmarting the other team.
I was aware that there were strategies that get employed by the best of the best, though I didn't know any specifics. This issue though, is that for strategy to even matter at all, you have to be fast as lightning. It doesn't matter if you are a tactical genius if you're not almost as fast as your opponents. In RO1, you could be quite a bit less accurate, and quite a bit slower, if you are very intelligent about what you do. Alternatively, you can be the fastest gunslinger around, and get completely destroyed if you aren't playing smart, even if your opponents are much slower and less accurate. Speed is only important in RO if you are close to equal with your opponents in tactical prowess.
The CS learning curve is pretty much backwards compared with the RO learning curve. In CS, you get better first and foremost by getting faster, and then once you peak you work on your tactics. In RO its the complete opposite. You get better at first by working on your tactics, then once you're a brilliant tactician, you work on your aim.
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ever played project reality bf2 mod? Sounds right up your alley
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On February 10 2012 11:55 nttea wrote:
ever played project reality bf2 mod? Sounds right up your alley
I played a little Project reality in BF1942, never played the BF2 version.
If you want to talk about BF mods that are along these lines, nothing beats Forgotten Hope, imo.
But thats neither here nor there.
What I wanted to talk about with this post, is High Value Targets.
Basically, this is my way of thinking when it comes to prioritizing targets. If we are on Offense, and I'm not an SMG guy, I focus on helping my team move forward. First, this means MG's are almost always High Value targets, and should be shot first. Alternatively, anyone who is in a good position to hit our Squad Leader should be targeted next, as they pose a threat to the team's possibility of having smoke cover. Next, comes enemy riflemen. If we're at long range still, bolt-action riflemen take priority, as they are slightly more accurate, meaning they are more of a threat at long range than semi-auto riflemen. As we get closer, semi-auto riflemen start becoming more and more dangerous, and so should be prioritized more. Once we're there, I focus on enemies who are also in the cap, regardless of what they are. Last, comes enemies who are on there way to the cap. On defense, I focus on things that are threats to our MG's. This means I try to stop riflemen from setting up, and I try to stop enemy squad leaders from throwing smoke grenades.
As an SMG, I just focus on whoever is closest to me :D.
The thing is though, the changes in RO2 ruin this as well. Because all enemies are just as dangerous as all others in all situations, you lose this aspect too.
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On February 10 2012 10:13 eXigent. wrote:
Very nice and detailed post. That being said, I dont agree with you on your counterstrike explanation. It's true that in CS a pro player needs to be really quick and accurate , but that is not the only thing needed. If thats all there was to it, you would have 100-200 players all on the same level, all of them unable to gain any advantage. You need to know the maps very well, you need to know when to peek and when not to, you also have to have tactics that allow you a slight advantage going into an engagement with another player. There are many things players do to gain these advantages.
One example being the flashbang. A good player can throw a flashbang out while jumping in front of it at the same time. This completely blinds the enemy if he is looking, and only half blinds you allowing you to still see in front of you well enough to kill the other player. Using that mentality, you can build on that by having your opponent expect such a move, and instead you throw a smoke grenade faking the flashbang attempt. As you throw the smoke grenade you pop out immediately while it is still in the air. Most players will assume its a flashbang, and do a semi spin to block some of the blinding effects. This gives you a clear and easy shot on them as they are totally unaware you popped out with a fake.
There are quite a few other examples of high level thinking / strategy as well, but I feel like I went off topic far enough already. Just wanted to make sure you were aware that there is much more to CS than being the faster shot. If you were to watch a professional CS match and studied each teams movements and strategies, you would certainly see that they are very indepth, and rely on outsmarting the other team.
I just wanted to completely agree with what you said about the flashbang. The AWP, Flashbang, Scout, AK-47, Smoke, M4A1 are the difference makers in the game and of those, Scout, Flashbang and Smoke are the hardest to master. They are so difficult and they are all about the aim and tactics like has been said, but even more they are about game sense. CS is hugely about game sense, as much or more than SCII, where as in SCII you don't need to worry about where your opponents are at all times on ALL levels, CS rewards you for knowing about where you are in relation to your opponent at all levels and this creates the difference in skill that great flashbangs and smokes show.
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Reminds me of pokemon, a game I've played semi-competitively. predicting enemy moves by getting switch-ins or free set-up turns, much out-thinking to be done, even without mentioning the depth of team building.. good read, ty
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On February 10 2012 12:47 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:13 eXigent. wrote:
Very nice and detailed post. That being said, I dont agree with you on your counterstrike explanation. It's true that in CS a pro player needs to be really quick and accurate , but that is not the only thing needed. If thats all there was to it, you would have 100-200 players all on the same level, all of them unable to gain any advantage. You need to know the maps very well, you need to know when to peek and when not to, you also have to have tactics that allow you a slight advantage going into an engagement with another player. There are many things players do to gain these advantages.
One example being the flashbang. A good player can throw a flashbang out while jumping in front of it at the same time. This completely blinds the enemy if he is looking, and only half blinds you allowing you to still see in front of you well enough to kill the other player. Using that mentality, you can build on that by having your opponent expect such a move, and instead you throw a smoke grenade faking the flashbang attempt. As you throw the smoke grenade you pop out immediately while it is still in the air. Most players will assume its a flashbang, and do a semi spin to block some of the blinding effects. This gives you a clear and easy shot on them as they are totally unaware you popped out with a fake.
There are quite a few other examples of high level thinking / strategy as well, but I feel like I went off topic far enough already. Just wanted to make sure you were aware that there is much more to CS than being the faster shot. If you were to watch a professional CS match and studied each teams movements and strategies, you would certainly see that they are very indepth, and rely on outsmarting the other team. I just wanted to completely agree with what you said about the flashbang. The AWP, Flashbang, Scout, AK-47, Smoke, M4A1 are the difference makers in the game and of those, Scout, Flashbang and Smoke are the hardest to master. They are so difficult and they are all about the aim and tactics like has been said, but even more they are about game sense. CS is hugely about game sense, as much or more than SCII, where as in SCII you don't need to worry about where your opponents are at all times on ALL levels, CS rewards you for knowing about where you are in relation to your opponent at all levels and this creates the difference in skill that great flashbangs and smokes show.
The AWP, AK47, and M4A1 are all the kinds of things I was complaining about. They are difference makers, as you say, and yet all there is to them is put the reticule on the enemy's head and click. Even the flashbang trick the other poster described is somewhat like what I was talking about. It is a very short-term tactic which wins an engagement right then if its done right. The kinds of tactics RO1 entailed were big endeavors that could take minutes. That may not sound like much, but remember that RO1 is the kind of game where if you play carelessly, you die every ten to twenty seconds. Sometimes they would span multiple lives, where you would achieve part of your goal, die, and hope your team could either take advantage of what you managed to achieve, or at least not lose it until you get back and can continue your plan. Now factor in that the enemy is actively trying similarly scaled maneuverings against your team, and you can start to get a sense of the sheer magnitude of what goes in to a single win in RO1. Also, last but certainly not least, a standard game of RO1 is 32 vs 32. CS is 5 vs 5. The scales here are so completely different, which is another thing that factors into why RO1 is more of a mental game than a physical one. Even if you are the best shot ever, how many people do you think you can take at one time? 5? 6? One things for sure, its certainly not 32. I didn't bring up the scales before, because thats one thing RO2 didn't ruin. It's still 32 vs 32. In fact, even more servers are that size, because the netcode is a little better, and it now takes a less powerful server than it did in RO1.
On February 10 2012 13:06 mjf wrote:
Reminds me of pokemon, a game I've played semi-competitively. predicting enemy moves by getting switch-ins or free set-up turns, much out-thinking to be done, even without mentioning the depth of team building.. good read, ty
You're very welcome. Red Orchestra is something I'm passionate about, so discussing it is a pleasure.
I haven't even discussed how intense the strategies get when you start talking about combined arms maps, where you have tanks as well as infantry.
There is so much to master when it comes to vehicles. I would say that I'm still terrible when it comes to maps where that are focused on tank vs tank combat. I'm terrible, and yet I have hundreds of hours of playtime. Its amazing just how much depth there is to the game.
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Has the price on this dropped at all? I'm semi-interested since I tried it at your house, but I mean...TF2 is free....
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It's gone up actually. You missed out on the bundle deals. At launch, you could get it for 35$ if you pre-ordered. 30$ if you also owned RO1. Its 40$ now, because all the deals are over. Looks like you have to wait for a sale, or suck it up and pay the 40$.
Also, I'm currently downloading the beta for the Classic Mode I mentioned in the OP, can't wait.
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EPT
