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On January 30 2012 16:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:
The right decision in my opinion would have been to postpone the finals to another day. That way the fans got robbed a Stephano vs Kas bo5 and got a match with Kas and an inferior player neither the outcome of the 2nd or 3rd place match.
No offence to CatZ or Illusion, they are both good players and its no shame to be worse than Kas. I can understand the decision, but I don't think it was correct. I couldn't care less about Kas vs someone not up to par wit him :x
Edit: if its correct that he stated he didn't want for the 3rd place match to be finished, they could have played the final and cast it from replays. I don't know if he would have agreed on that.
Edit2: I don't think the player owes the fans entertainment. If Stephano feels like he cannot play his best or cannot deliver against Kas because he's too tired I do think his decision to forfeit was nothing but the right choice. If he owes anything to the fans its to show his best performance or at least try to bring his A-game in a final of such a tournament.
I agree, postponing the final would have been a better option. Sure, this would have probably pissed off the commentators/casting crew and the viewers to a degree but this isn't a new thing. I've seen finals been postponed plenty of times for SC2 tournaments. Atleast we would of had a real final.
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Canada13389 Posts
On January 31 2012 01:59 Phemtos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:
The right decision in my opinion would have been to postpone the finals to another day. That way the fans got robbed a Stephano vs Kas bo5 and got a match with Kas and an inferior player neither the outcome of the 2nd or 3rd place match.
No offence to CatZ or Illusion, they are both good players and its no shame to be worse than Kas. I can understand the decision, but I don't think it was correct. I couldn't care less about Kas vs someone not up to par wit him :x
Edit: if its correct that he stated he didn't want for the 3rd place match to be finished, they could have played the final and cast it from replays. I don't know if he would have agreed on that.
Edit2: I don't think the player owes the fans entertainment. If Stephano feels like he cannot play his best or cannot deliver against Kas because he's too tired I do think his decision to forfeit was nothing but the right choice. If he owes anything to the fans its to show his best performance or at least try to bring his A-game in a final of such a tournament. I agree, postponing the final would have been a better option. Sure, this would have probably pissed off the commentators/casting crew and the viewers to a degree but this isn't a new thing. I've seen finals been postponed plenty of times for SC2 tournaments. Atleast we would of had a real final.
I don't understand this point of view. In terms of professionalism he should have played the game. Thats the end of the story.
I understand he has the right to forfeit and he did thats fine and its allowed but it remains unprofessional. For all the talk about wanting to get this game popular and potentially more accepted there needs to be a certain reciprocity between organizers and players.
ONOG set up barcrafts for this invitational. They can't simply dissapoint people going to ONOG barcrafts to watch an ONOG tournament by saying hey lets do the finals tomorrow or the day after.
ONOG provided all the players with an invitation, a date, and times. It is up to the player to accept or reject these conditions once ONOG has provided them.
Furthermore, ONOG allowed stephano almost an hour's break delaying their schedule for his needs. This is some of that reciprocity thing I was mentioning. ONOG understood the player, gave the player time and then proceeded afterwards. Stephano quitting after playing a BO3 vs illusion was unprofessional. If he was tired before these games forfeit then. Do not waste an hour of time then play a series then quit and then not give the organizers a chance to work out an alternative.
For all you know ONOG could have postponed the match and stephano decide he doesnt feel like playing it anymore (for whatever reason). Not only this but this undermines the barcrafts ONOG set up, it undermines the time their casters and streamers and obs were able to give as well.
Just because stephano is good at this game doesn't mean that every tournament should bend to his will. He can't just do what he wants because he's good. Stephano isn't a Diva and ONOG or any other tournament for that matter is not his personal aide.
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On January 30 2012 16:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:
The right decision in my opinion would have been to postpone the finals to another day. That way the fans got robbed a Stephano vs Kas bo5 and got a match with Kas and an inferior player neither the outcome of the 2nd or 3rd place match.
No offence to CatZ or Illusion, they are both good players and its no shame to be worse than Kas. I can understand the decision, but I don't think it was correct. I couldn't care less about Kas vs someone not up to par wit him :x
Edit: if its correct that he stated he didn't want for the 3rd place match to be finished, they could have played the final and cast it from replays. I don't know if he would have agreed on that.
Edit2: I don't think the player owes the fans entertainment. If Stephano feels like he cannot play his best or cannot deliver against Kas because he's too tired I do think his decision to forfeit was nothing but the right choice. If he owes anything to the fans its to show his best performance or at least try to bring his A-game in a final of such a tournament.
I disagree. If you play 2 tournaments at once you are responsible for making it work, not the tournament organizers. Its super annoying when players play multiple tournaments at once and cause delays all the time. They should have just given illusion a default win in the semifinal imo.
I had something like this happen to me before, where i had to wait in a semifinal for almost 2 hours because my opponent was playing something else in the meanwhile. at the end i had to play at 2 AM instead of ~12, at which point i was really tired already and partly lost due to that. It simply punishes the players who arent super annoying with their multi tournament stuff and dont cause delays and rewards the people who do that. Which is not acceptable imo.
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I'm with DarKFoRcE here. I don't like Stephano's behaviour and am not really a fan of his mindset anyway, but he's been pretty mannered so i don't really dislike him. But this was pretty stupid.
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On January 31 2012 01:00 EternaLLegacy wrote:
Stephano has the right idea, which is not to pretend that this is a serious career path. Maybe for a few players who were around in BW days it is, but does anyone think that SC2 is actually going to be a viable career for 10+ years? Hell no. It'll fall apart pretty quickly after Blizzard moves onto their next game, whatever that is.
Stephano is just doing it like most people do their jobs, temporarily for the money to open up new opportunities. You don't work at Mickey D's as a life long career and you don't play SC2 as a life long career.
Anyone who thinks that pro gaming is this huge budding scene is crazy.
Your not alone in that thinking, DJWheat sort of coined the term "esports bubble" to describe just that. But then this is still no reason to excuse unprofessional behavior. Even at McDonald's if you are rude to the customers you are going to get reprimanded.
But I have to admit that my thinking is somewhat along the lines of yours. Stephano is not some high paid professional athelete, nor is any foriegn player. He's just a guy trying to make some money to get through college. Give the guy a break. :\
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On January 30 2012 16:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:
Edit: if its correct that he stated he didn't want for the 3rd place match to be finished, they could have played the final and cast it from replays. I don't know if he would have agreed on that.
Edit2: I don't think the player owes the fans entertainment. If Stephano feels like he cannot play his best or cannot deliver against Kas because he's too tired I do think his decision to forfeit was nothing but the right choice. If he owes anything to the fans its to show his best performance or at least try to bring his A-game in a final of such a tournament.
ONOG wanted to broadcast finals live. I believe they offered him the replay option but he was already peacing out at that point.
When you get invited to play in an event and accept, you owe the tournament, it's organizers, and the fans. It's the same thing in the real world. If I have a job and say I will work, then the time comes and I say I'm too tired AND be completely unreasonable the entire time, then we have problems.
The issue here is not simply a tired player forfeiting, that happens all the time. It was how Stephano handled it which made it so ridiculous. As a professional when you sign up for something then screw things over there's a problem.
Sure ONOG could have done things differently. I personally think they made the right decision considering how Stephano treated them.
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On January 31 2012 01:33 falaakr wrote:
This is ridiculous.
Why the hell give Stephano the 4th place? He forfeit the final, so he should be 2nd. If ONOG staff wanted to punish him for forfeit, which is ridiculous in itself, they should have taken on and DQ him completely.
And wtf is all this rage on TL everytime a player forfeit ?
Forcing players to play is silly, and so is this punishement thing. A player don't forfeit for no reason, and forbidding him to do so leads to shitty games (cf Naniwa's awesome probe rush).
So why forcing players to play ? This is retarded, and raging about it is even more.
I think there is quite a huge difference. Tournaments need to stream viewers to pull sponsors/advertising money to exist. If Gom would have just canceled the Naniwa - Nestea match some people would have been mad but I don't think it would have been a big deal. If a player forfeits a final, which should be the climax of the tournament (unless your GSL Code S  ) the tournament loses out on a ton of potential advertising money which is needed to run further tournaments.
To forfeit the finals after he delayed his semi-finals for 45min is just a slap in the face for the people who made this possible. Don't accept an invite to a tournament if your unsure you really want to perform in matches which matter -_- Quite sad that 2 of the fan favorites who got voted into the tournament decided to forfeit their matches.
Kudos to ONOG giving the fans the best possible experience after Stephano tried to trash it. 
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United States2095 Posts
Side point, that didn't get put out there, but that annoyed me.
Rules stated all games were to be played on NA server. So I expected this. (I realize it is fairer, ALOT fairer even to alternate servers after each game) However rules are rules and I've played tons of tournaments that are ONLY EU events, and I was looking forward to this event being a NA event.
Stephano said he would forfeit and not play his games against Violet unless it was alternating games. This caused ONLY the matches after his to be played this way. Sase vs Catz for instance was ONLY on NA. And the games of Me vs Kas were played on alternating servers (EU + NA). I do think that way is fairest, but I really dislike coming into a tournament expecting something and having the rules changed on me within 10 minutes of me having to play.
And more on topic, its unprofessional to do this as a player, but if you are as successful of a player as Stephano you can do this and be fine. After all, we all want to see his play. Its amazing play. I mean he alone, is probably why a huge amount of viewers were watching and if he decides randomly he doesn't want to play, he doesn't have to. Its something tournaments have to keep in mind when inviting him though.
I'm a HUGE stephano fan. So please take this as "I wish tournaments wouldn't cater to a player completely" (changing rules on the spot; server situation) and then not expect players to take advantage of the situation, by doing it again (I need sleep or Forfeit). Also, Stephano's play was absurdly good this tournament + I really enjoyed the entire tournament. It was a pleasure to be a part of and I only wish it hadn't been hurt by these occurrences.
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Why are some people pretending as if stephano got off scott free? He got a punishment, and that was -600 dollars in prize money at the end of what he had earned. I think actions taken on BOTH sides were 100% reasonable. How the hell are you gonna force someone to play when they're physically worn down? Like, it's somewhat mind blowing as to why people think he shouldn't be allowed to make this decision for himself. You can retire MID GAME in tennis if you're tired, this is basically the same situation.
The only thing you can blame him for is not having the foresight of how his condition would be after playing these two tournaments, which is really not something everyone can predict because this is basically the first time he's been in this situation. Honestly, do people really believe stephano would give up the chance for 750 more dollars after 1 series in which he's the favorite just so he could abuse the system with his status?
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Don't blame him. Everyone knows zerg is the hardest race to play when tired.
Jokes aside, stephano isn't professional in any manner. In Mr. Chae's words, Stephano is nothing but a "money-hunter".
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4713 Posts
While I can see Sheth's point, and how the tournament organizers also messed up. I don't think its a right mindset to look at Stephano as being such a successful player that he is exempt from forfeiting an important game of a tournament. Such actions need to bear harsh consequences, least players just forfeit games they don't care about because they are "too good" for the rules to apply. Its even more wrong if he was the one to demand rules be changed in the first place.
Though from what I understood the organizers are also to blame. Its a slippery slope if we get to that stage.
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On January 31 2012 06:20 Destructicon wrote:
While I can see Sheth's point, and how the tournament organizers also messed up. I don't think its a right mindset to look at Stephano as being such a successful player that he is exempt from forfeiting an important game of a tournament. Such actions need to bear harsh consequences, least players just forfeit games they don't care about because they are "too good" for the rules to apply. Its even more wrong if he was the one to demand rules be changed in the first place.
Though from what I understood the organizers are also to blame. Its a slippery slope if we get to that stage.
Yeah, but the consequences need to be laid out beforehand. When a player agrees to play in a tournament, it shouldn't be that they are 100% bound to participate in the tournament at all costs, it should be that they are now bound by the rules of the tournament. If the tournament rules account for forfeit with incredibly harsh punishment, then incredibly harsh punishment should be handed out. If it has no rules about forfeit, then forfeit, while undesirable, shouldn't really participate. Personally, even though I think Stephano being punished logically has no merit, I think it feels like a correct punishment based on the manner of the forfeit. I still like stephano and think more chances are always in order. I'm sure he'll keep this experience in mind going forward.
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On January 30 2012 18:38 dtz wrote:
I think Stephano fully deserves the right to forfeit. In any individual sports, you are allowed to forfeit at any time if you feel you are physically incapable. Happens all the time in all sports ( tennis,golf,badminton,table tennis,etc). And I think no one will doubt that he really felt tired after such a gruelling day and couldn't take it anymore when he decided to sleep. It's not as if he lied about being tired to screw the organizers. The man was genuinely tired and sleepy and felt like he wouldn't be able to focus through another match. Just like an athlete is genuinely injured and would be unable to complete a match.
It's just the manner in which Stephano told the organizers might be a little crude and disrespectful. But that's not what many are attacking him for.
ONOG came out with a reasonable solution ( i think Stephano should still get the 2nd place money though because he forfeited the final and thus should come second) but ONOG's decision is somewhat understandable.
I hate you, and I love you at the same time. This is what I would have wanted to say this morning.
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On January 30 2012 16:42 Capped wrote:
Stephano has always been like this, unprofessional and bad mannered, he's a child without much maturity. Look at the way he played two teams off against eachother, signed a contract and then went "well, i dont give a fuck, they offered me more money, cya!"
He's a joke to the SC2 scene and needs to leave if you ask me, this is just proving that fact even more.
Your an idiot if you sign up to two events knowing you wont get a break imbetween, going AWOL then coming back and saying "fuck your tournament, laters" (basically what he did.) You really think thats acceptable? In a tournament with 3k prizemoney?
$3k is alot of money to just throw around willy-nilly and no-one should be messing about or trying to screw a tournament over like he did.
don't see a problem in leaving some low level tournament, stephano obviously wasn't tempted by the prize pool so in my opinion it's on the tournament. he didn't sign a contract, he can quit when ever he wants. if you're so anal about "omfg bbq esports manners" then be professional and have contracts, stop crying about your two dollar tournament that stephano didn't want to play in
edit ~ sorry, doesn't matter what "level" the tournament, have a contract or shut up. you too gsl, stfu
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Despite the "unprofessionalism" of forfeiting... he still has the right as a player to forfeit.
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On January 31 2012 02:28 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:00 EternaLLegacy wrote:
Stephano has the right idea, which is not to pretend that this is a serious career path. Maybe for a few players who were around in BW days it is, but does anyone think that SC2 is actually going to be a viable career for 10+ years? Hell no. It'll fall apart pretty quickly after Blizzard moves onto their next game, whatever that is.
Stephano is just doing it like most people do their jobs, temporarily for the money to open up new opportunities. You don't work at Mickey D's as a life long career and you don't play SC2 as a life long career.
Anyone who thinks that pro gaming is this huge budding scene is crazy. Your not alone in that thinking, DJWheat sort of coined the term "esports bubble" to describe just that. But then this is still no reason to excuse unprofessional behavior. Even at McDonald's if you are rude to the customers you are going to get reprimanded. But I have to admit that my thinking is somewhat along the lines of yours. Stephano is not some high paid professional athelete, nor is any foriegn player. He's just a guy trying to make some money to get through college. Give the guy a break. :\
so if he's doing it for the money don't you think he should have played the finals as he would have made more money that way? The logic you put just is silly "he's just some guy trying to make some money" but then forfeits. No he doesn't deserve a break either for forfeiting in the finals just unacceptable and one of the few reasons I heavily dislike him.
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I can see the problem from the tournament guys point of view. They put together a program and were expected to deliver an end product by advertisers and for viewers. Instead, on of the finalists up and quit. It was pretty rude on Stephano's part but as much as I would like to hate him for it I can't. He does have the right to quit the tournament. He's only hurting himself by doing this. People will stop inviting him because he's starting to get quite a reputation as a trouble maker and drama of an extremely negative kind follows him.
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Good post. The correct way to deal with this is for other tournaments to simply not invite Stephano to participate. If he's not willing to honor his commitments (and yes, accepting the invitation was making a commitment to play the games in the schedule he was given), people should stop giving him opportunities.
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On January 31 2012 12:40 thehepp wrote:
Despite the "unprofessionalism" of forfeiting... he still has the right as a player to forfeit.
But then he shouldn't expect any compensation for the tournament at all. Not 2nd place, not 4th place, nothing.
It's like if you were a racing car driver and you got out 100 meters before the finish line and walked away.
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On January 31 2012 04:17 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Side point, that didn't get put out there, but that annoyed me.
Rules stated all games were to be played on NA server. So I expected this. (I realize it is fairer, ALOT fairer even to alternate servers after each game) However rules are rules and I've played tons of tournaments that are ONLY EU events, and I was looking forward to this event being a NA event.
Stephano said he would forfeit and not play his games against Violet unless it was alternating games. This caused ONLY the matches after his to be played this way. Sase vs Catz for instance was ONLY on NA. And the games of Me vs Kas were played on alternating servers (EU + NA). I do think that way is fairest, but I really dislike coming into a tournament expecting something and having the rules changed on me within 10 minutes of me having to play.
And more on topic, its unprofessional to do this as a player, but if you are as successful of a player as Stephano you can do this and be fine. After all, we all want to see his play. Its amazing play. I mean he alone, is probably why a huge amount of viewers were watching and if he decides randomly he doesn't want to play, he doesn't have to. Its something tournaments have to keep in mind when inviting him though.
I'm a HUGE stephano fan. So please take this as "I wish tournaments wouldn't cater to a player completely" (changing rules on the spot; server situation) and then not expect players to take advantage of the situation, by doing it again (I need sleep or Forfeit). Also, Stephano's play was absurdly good this tournament + I really enjoyed the entire tournament. It was a pleasure to be a part of and I only wish it hadn't been hurt by these occurrences.
Coming from you this is almost BM! 
Yes, tournaments should really stick to their rules 100% unless something totally unpredicted, unforseen happens. No question about that if the tournament wants to be taken serious.
About Stephano and many other players, in fact a ton of other players, participating in 2 tournaments that will likely colide is stupid and disrespectful as the schedule will be delayed and everyone loses. The viewers, the organizers and the opponents who deliberatly chose to only play ONE tournament to be sure they would make it in time. They now all have to wait so Stephano can eat a sandwich or whatever. Its retarded and ONOG shouldnt have allowed that in the first place.
Despite this rant I am actually also a huge fan of Stephano but no matter how awesome you are not any kind of behavior should be tolerated, whether that be not inviting him in the future, holding his pricemoney or disqualify him if he is even a second late.
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