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On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done.
Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives.
The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter.
The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
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On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
That's not even close to a fair analogy and only shows how little empathy you feel, and how little knowledge you have of a suicidal person.
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I don't think suicide should be frowned upon, but I think people who are contemplating it need help and should seek it. There are so many things that are better in life once you start seeking it out. You can't expect things to go smoothly and happy feel good all the time. You must reach for it on your own outside your comfort zone. And that's what is the main issue. People who feel like they want to die think they are at the end of the line, when in fact there is always help. Life gets better. Life is all about sacrifice, pain, and suffering. But at the same time there is also joy, rewards, and fun.
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On January 23 2012 02:06 Jibba wrote:
Not all suicide thought processes are the same, but many are similar and there's a fundamental misunderstanding between those who have and haven't felt it. The thought is hardly ever as simple as "my life is terrible therefore I want it over." It's an issue of self worth so part of it is a belief that their life can't improve, not because their circumstances can't change, but because they believe the number one problem in their life is themselves so no matter what changes, they will always find a way to screw it up.
And in the process of changing environments or seeking help, they're wasting the time and energy of the people that care about them. Some people say suicide is selfish, and in a purely objective state of mind (which doesn't exist) it might be, but in a suicidal state, the thought is often that you're being selfish by keeping yourself alive. That if you end it, your loved ones will grieve temporarily but in the long run they'll be better for it because you won't be leeching off of them.
It is a sort of temporary insanity, because I don't think people stay in a suicidal state of mind for a long length of time and when you calm down, you can see things more clearly again. On the other hand, thinking that you were being stupid or selfish by thinking that can even further lower your self worth.
Yeah that sounds true to me. It's a shame that suicidal ideation must be hidden or else you are treated like a criminal or a dangerous object. A suicidal person usually feels enough guilt and shame as it is, but more shame is thrust upon them for the "weakness, selfishness, cowardliness" (lets add stupidity too, since it's come up in this thread even) of thinking of suicide.
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On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible.
The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM.
Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible.
Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger.
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On January 23 2012 02:06 Jibba wrote:
Not all suicide thought processes are the same, but many are similar and there's a fundamental misunderstanding between those who have and haven't felt it. The thought is hardly ever as simple as "my life is terrible therefore I want it over." It's an issue of self worth so part of it is a belief that their life can't improve, not because their circumstances can't change, but because they believe the number one problem in their life is themselves so no matter what changes, they will always find a way to screw it up.
And in the process of changing environments or seeking help, they're wasting the time and energy of the people that care about them. Some people say suicide is selfish, and in a purely objective state of mind (which doesn't exist) it might be, but in a suicidal state, the thought is often that you're being selfish by keeping yourself alive. That if you end it, your loved ones will grieve temporarily but in the long run they'll be better for it because you won't be leeching off of them.
It is a sort of temporary insanity, because I don't think people stay in a suicidal state of mind for a long length of time and when you calm down, you can see things more clearly again. On the other hand, thinking that you were being stupid or selfish by thinking that can even further lower your self worth. This is definitely true, at least for me. You feel like deep down you're a loser, stupid, a failure..so therefore it doesn't matter what environment or situation you're in, it's not going to ever change.
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On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
Nah, I don't think you can say that. Psychological help should be a choice, but in cases of suicidal people they lose their rights of mobility, employment is much more difficult etc etc. Probably not as bad living conditions as in jail, but still pretty bad. It is a big reason why suicidal people do not say anything. Tell people you're thinking about suicide and you lose all your rights. It's really a bad situation IMO.
I think it's ok to be selfish and want the people you're dependent on to keep living, but I also think if you can't deep down have some genuine sympathy for a person who commits suicide, understand why they did so, you're really quite a disgusting product of our sociopathic culture and honestly a part of the reason people do commit suicide. The phrase "you just don't understand" sounds so juvenile, but it's often so true because we all tend to live in our own phantasy systems and like to assume that our own perceptions are the truest ones, disregarding anything the comes up to the contrary as an anomaly or a form of insanity  People often want to think they understand, but they speak too broadly, too generally, too simply, to be taken seriously by anyone who doesn't already share in their pathetic phantasy.
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On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger.
What you say is true, but not in all cases. There are as i've said before in this thread, hundreds of dumb teenagers who'd commit suicide over the end of a brief relationship. In that case, it IS stupid. Even if that sounds insensitive, I doubt anyone will argue that someone who committed suicide over a broken relationship, or something just as trivial is anything but stupid.
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On January 23 2012 02:59 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. What you say is true, but not in all cases. There are as i've said before in this thread, hundreds of dumb teenagers who'd commit suicide over the end of a brief relationship. In that case, it IS stupid. Even if that sounds insensitive, I doubt anyone will argue that someone who committed suicide over a broken relationship, or something just as trivial is anything but stupid.
It irks me that he said "suicide is stupid", and still believes that to be the case.
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On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person.
Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations.
To the dead person it is a nonoutcome...
This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person.
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If you really believe what you wrote in the blog than you are a fucked up person. Some people get in bad situations and need someone to help them, not let them commit suicide
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On January 23 2012 03:23 FortyOzs wrote:
Some people get in bad situations and need someone to help them, not let them commit suicide
Strongly agree with this sentiment.
Suicide is taking a human being away from the world. Everyone, as a human being, has potential to improve their life, and everyone is connected to other human beings who will be affected by the death. Even if the person has no family and friends, their suicide, as the death of a human being, is tragic even to strangers. Besides, if the person had lived who knows what kind of connections they could have made.
It seems silly to label suicide as a crime, but in my opinion it is almost as serious as murder, given how the death will affect others in the person's life. It takes strong statements like that to remind the suicidal person that their life matters. You can be so irrational if you're in a really depressed state of mind, and the sad part is, you think you're being totally rational...
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On January 23 2012 03:37 jubil wrote:
Besides, if the person had lived who knows what kind of connections they could have made.
You could just as easily say that by dying, who knows how much pain and damage might be avoided from the world and to the person themselves? Which has more potential for harm, one act of suicide, or 50 years of life inflicting and receiving god knows what evil? You are just as irrational as you paint the suicidal person out to be.
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Poor sjames. I think deep down he was a nice guy, he just had so many problems fitting into the community. I'll kind of miss his "interesting" posts.
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On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger.
How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10.
Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid.
Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better.
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What sort of suicide are we talking about?
There's many variations of suicide and the human mindset behind it (mentally incapable, depressed, disease and so on)
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On January 23 2012 05:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10. Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better.
The bolded part shows that you have zero empathy for anyone who has been depressed and suicidal, and very little knowledge of the subject. I'm done, peace.
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On January 23 2012 05:25 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 05:15 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10. Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better. The bolded part shows that you have zero empathy for anyone who has been depressed and suicidal, and very little knowledge of the subject. I'm done, peace.
Well, because empathy won't ever keep people from suiciding. Since you are not attempting to anwser anymore, I'll just give you an advice:
If you cross anyone who seems to be suicidal, tell them that suicide is the right thing to do. Tell them death will be much better than living. Because if you do that, you preach what you truly believe in, so that atleast you can live a happy life.
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It's interesting that the two cultures I use to compare Shame and Guilt cultures, feudal Japan and Rome, also provide good cases of suicide.
In Japan, suicide was not an individual act at all, but a matter of honor.
Rome has 3 classical cases of suicide: Lucretia, who committed suicide as a matter of honor as well; Marc Antony, who was a coward; and Cato, who admitted that he was doing a cowardly act as did it.
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EPT
