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On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it.
Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live.
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On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it.
It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that.
Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live.
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On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live.
If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for.
'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view.
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Suicide isn't illegal. Attempted suicide is illegal. The purpose, at least in the US, is to force people who attempt suicide into asylums and whatnot. It's not really a "Don't do this", so much of a "Do this and if you live we're making you take our help."
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On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live.
Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on.
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On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on.
Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal.
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On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal.
Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant.
You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices.
I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'.
Everyone does it because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to.
e: maybe you did not understand what I meant by saying ' suicide is stupid '.
I dont think that the people that suicide are stupid, I say that suicide itself is stupid. For the people that suicide it could make perfect sense and their decision might be the right for them. But objectively it's just plain stupid as there is always something better. (some exceptions exist like being tortured or enslaved but that is not common in the 1st world.)
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On January 23 2012 01:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal. Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant. You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices. I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'. Everyone one does is because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to.
My mind tells me many things, but I don't listen to it every time. Sometimes it even has trouble with itself deciding on things.
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Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare.
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On January 23 2012 00:42 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live. If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for. 'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view.
Well it's not like you can regret anything or be disappointed (oh what a waste) when you cease to exist.
On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare.
Removes all possible negative outcomes too.
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On January 23 2012 01:18 GigaFlop wrote:
My mind tells me many things, but I don't listen to it every time. Sometimes it even has trouble with itself deciding on things.
I don't understand what you mean by that. Do you want to imply that you believe in free will or something?
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On January 23 2012 00:43 BobbysBack wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal. Attempted suicide is illegal. The purpose, at least in the US, is to force people who attempt suicide into asylums and whatnot. It's not really a "Don't do this", so much of a "Do this and if you live we're making you take our help."
Basically this, its so that if someone in the US tries to commit suicide and lives through it, their rights can be taken away/ignored to forcibly prevent them from trying again. Considering the ridiculous amount of american teenagers who try to slit their wrists over a breakup, its a good idea.
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On January 23 2012 01:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal. Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant. You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices. I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'. Everyone does it because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to.
I didn't say that biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make, or imply anything like that.
Let me clarify my point. Depressed people who are suicidal have a much deeper problem than their current life situation being unsatisfactory. It is a mental illness, if you want to call it that, that means they can feel sometimes that they would rather be dead than carry on living. There are things that can help people who are depressed such as counseling, cognitive therapy, drugs etc. Some people don't have access to these privileges, and sometimes these treatments don't work. So some depressed people that feel suicidal have a negative feeling inside of them that can not be changed and that is so strong that it makes them want to stop living. To call this feeling stupid is to show very little understanding of the mental trauma that some suicidal people are going through.
I know almost nothing about the feelings that people with terminal illnesses experience, so I can't comment on that. But please don't make a sweeping statement like "suicide is stupid".
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On January 23 2012 01:20 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:42 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live. If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for. 'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view. Well it's not like you can regret anything or be disappointed (oh what a waste) when you cease to exist. Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare. Removes all possible negative outcomes too.
You are assuming that death is somehow a neutral outcome, which is ridiculous. Death is a negative outcome, so no, it does not remove all possible negative outcomes.
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On January 23 2012 01:36 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 01:20 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 00:42 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live. If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for. 'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view. Well it's not like you can regret anything or be disappointed (oh what a waste) when you cease to exist. On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare. Removes all possible negative outcomes too. You are assuming that death is somehow a neutral outcome, which is ridiculous. Death is a negative outcome, so no, it does not remove all possible negative outcomes.
To the dead person it is a nonoutcome...
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United States22883 Posts
Not all suicide thought processes are the same, but many are similar and there's a fundamental misunderstanding between those who have and haven't felt it. The thought is hardly ever as simple as "my life is terrible therefore I want it over." It's an issue of self worth so part of it is a belief that their life can't improve, not because their circumstances can't change, but because they believe the number one problem in their life is themselves so no matter what changes, they will always find a way to screw it up.
And in the process of changing environments or seeking help, they're wasting the time and energy of the people that care about them. Some people say suicide is selfish, and in a purely objective state of mind (which doesn't exist) it might be, but in a suicidal state, the thought is often that you're being selfish by keeping yourself alive. That if you end it, your loved ones will grieve temporarily but in the long run they'll be better for it because you won't be leeching off of them.
It is a sort of temporary insanity, because I don't think people stay in a suicidal state of mind for a long length of time and when you calm down, you can see things more clearly again. On the other hand, thinking that you were being stupid or selfish by thinking that can even further lower your self worth.
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On January 23 2012 01:33 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 01:15 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal. Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant. You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices. I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'. Everyone does it because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to. I didn't say that biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make, or imply anything like that. Let me clarify my point. Depressed people who are suicidal have a much deeper problem than their current life situation being unsatisfactory. It is a mental illness, if you want to call it that, that means they can feel sometimes that they would rather be dead than carry on living. There are things that can help people who are depressed such as counseling, cognitive therapy, drugs etc. Some people don't have access to these privileges, and sometimes these treatments don't work. So some depressed people that feel suicidal have a negative feeling inside of them that can not be changed and that is so strong that it makes them want to stop living. To call this feeling stupid is to show very little understanding of the mental trauma that some suicidal people are going through. I know almost nothing about the feelings that people with terminal illnesses experience, so I can't comment on that. But please don't make a sweeping statement like "suicide is stupid".
I am in the position to call this feeling you are talking about 'stupid' because it objectively is. I totally agree with you that there are people that can not possibly ever feel happy again because of something they lived through or because of some illnesses. I understand that those persons might not want to live anymore, and it might be the right choice for them in their position. But objectively it's not, simply because giving up the only thing you truly own, your life, would be lost then and you wouldn't exist anymore.
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Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done.
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EPT
