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Hello everyone.
SJames here, good to see you all again :D
I believe that suicide should not be illegal or frowned apon.
Suicide is a personal choice. In the same way that what you eat, drink and do is your own choice.
Naturally, if you chose to commit suicide it can have a terrible impact on your family and friends. It can result in financial difficulty and hardship for people. However everyone makes choices that in some way hurt others, its not unique to suicide.
Suicide is not the choice between life and death, as death is unavoidable and thus one can only chose to experience death sooner. Suicide is about choosing whether to experience life or not, and the sad truth is, is that many living people have actually already given up on live. People work jobs they hate. They numb themselves with drugs and alcohol, they commit crime and live with extream hate and frustration. These people just as just as dead as the corpse of someone who committed suicide. People like this are dead men walking. They are the zombies the world has always had.
People choose to reject life all the time. People play on the computer instead of visiting their sick grandmother. They watch TV while their friends are out partying. They chose to live, but without being alive, they chose to not experience the world or life. Some people hide in their room all their lives.They reject life every day, and its completely legal, so then why is suicide not?
I'm not saying all forms of suicide are good, In the same way that not all choices are good.
But at the end of the day, you are always the one with the choice. You have the final choice in your life, and nobody should have the right to restrict your choices.
You make a choice, you accept the consequences. That's the way it always has been, and its the way it always will be. You are nothing more than a product of your choices. You cease being a human when you have no choice. So in a way, not being able to chose death, makes you less human then someone who did.
“You have a choice. Live or die. Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. To be or not to be.”
 
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Suicide is legal. At least in the UK.
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The sunset limited. Good as.
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On January 22 2012 23:44 Ph4ZeD wrote:
Suicide is legal. At least in the UK.
thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back.
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Don't you think suicide is practically legal for the people you mention: criminals and people with dead end jobs? If I wanted to kill myself, I could do it today and suffer no legal consequences.
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I don't understand how suicide is illegal in any country, like Zaros said you can't punish them when they are dead. Surely there isn't a country where you can go to jail for failing suicide? :/
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I know in the US It's illegal, but I don't understand why...
As Zaros said, once their dead their dead, so how can you punish them? Unless they failed at suicide, in which case why would you punish them?
Anyone know the reason why?
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On January 22 2012 23:49 Pandain wrote:
I know in the US It's illegal, but I don't understand why...
As Zaros said, once their dead their dead, so how can you punish them? Unless they failed at suicide, in which case why would you punish them?
Anyone know the reason why?
cough religion cough
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On January 22 2012 23:46 Zaros wrote:thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back.
Its never happened in years that if you help someone go to Switzerland you get prosecuted when you get back. Hundreds of people have done it with no action taken.
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On January 22 2012 23:51 Ph4ZeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:46 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:44 Ph4ZeD wrote:
Suicide is legal. At least in the UK. thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back. Its never happened in years that if you help someone go to Switzerland you get prosecuted when you get back. Hundreds of people have done it with no action taken.
i remember someone was arrested about a year ago in the UK for doing that, it was on the news.
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On January 22 2012 23:52 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:51 Ph4ZeD wrote:On January 22 2012 23:46 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:44 Ph4ZeD wrote:
Suicide is legal. At least in the UK. thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back. Its never happened in years that if you help someone go to Switzerland you get prosecuted when you get back. Hundreds of people have done it with no action taken. i remember someone was arrested about a year ago in the UK for doing that, it was on the news.
Arrested = / = charged and convicted.
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United States24676 Posts
How about some statistics? What percent of suicides/attempted suicides occur while the person is suffering from some form of temporary insanity and will change their mind later?
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In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it.
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On January 22 2012 23:54 Ph4ZeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:52 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:51 Ph4ZeD wrote:On January 22 2012 23:46 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:44 Ph4ZeD wrote:
Suicide is legal. At least in the UK. thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back. Its never happened in years that if you help someone go to Switzerland you get prosecuted when you get back. Hundreds of people have done it with no action taken. i remember someone was arrested about a year ago in the UK for doing that, it was on the news. Arrested = / = charged and convicted.
Its still illegal, if u kept doing it you would be arrested.
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On January 22 2012 23:59 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:54 Ph4ZeD wrote:On January 22 2012 23:52 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:51 Ph4ZeD wrote:On January 22 2012 23:46 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:44 Ph4ZeD wrote:
Suicide is legal. At least in the UK. thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back. Its never happened in years that if you help someone go to Switzerland you get prosecuted when you get back. Hundreds of people have done it with no action taken. i remember someone was arrested about a year ago in the UK for doing that, it was on the news. Arrested = / = charged and convicted. Its still illegal, if u kept doing it you would be arrested.
Thats pretty irrelevant though. Suicide is legal and theres nothing stopping you doing it. This thread is about people committing suicide, not their little helpers.
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On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it.
What could be better than pure nothingness?
Death is like.... the ultimate peace.
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On January 23 2012 00:01 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. What could be better than pure nothingness?
About anything that creates positive emotions.
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So much good things in the world that taking your own life without experience the most you can is waste.
Besides suicide is not an exit. It is an END.
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On January 22 2012 23:54 micronesia wrote:
How about some statistics? What percent of suicides/attempted suicides occur while the person is suffering from some form of temporary insanity and will change their mind later?
It depends on your definition of temporary. If you count depression, PTSD or schizophrenia as a form of temporary insanity then it's a large majority.
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On January 23 2012 00:00 Ph4ZeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:59 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:54 Ph4ZeD wrote:On January 22 2012 23:52 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:51 Ph4ZeD wrote:On January 22 2012 23:46 Zaros wrote:On January 22 2012 23:44 Ph4ZeD wrote:
Suicide is legal. At least in the UK. thats because you cant punish someone when they are dead.., assisted suicide is illegal in the UK even if u take someone to switzerland to die you can be arrested when u come back. Its never happened in years that if you help someone go to Switzerland you get prosecuted when you get back. Hundreds of people have done it with no action taken. i remember someone was arrested about a year ago in the UK for doing that, it was on the news. Arrested = / = charged and convicted. Its still illegal, if u kept doing it you would be arrested. Thats pretty irrelevant though. Suicide is legal and theres nothing stopping you doing it. This thread is about people committing suicide, not their little helpers.
not irrelevant as some people cant physically kill themselves and need help.
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On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it.
Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live.
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On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it.
It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that.
Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live.
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On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live.
If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for.
'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view.
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Suicide isn't illegal. Attempted suicide is illegal. The purpose, at least in the US, is to force people who attempt suicide into asylums and whatnot. It's not really a "Don't do this", so much of a "Do this and if you live we're making you take our help."
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On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live.
Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on.
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On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on.
Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal.
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On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal.
Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant.
You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices.
I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'.
Everyone does it because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to.
e: maybe you did not understand what I meant by saying ' suicide is stupid '.
I dont think that the people that suicide are stupid, I say that suicide itself is stupid. For the people that suicide it could make perfect sense and their decision might be the right for them. But objectively it's just plain stupid as there is always something better. (some exceptions exist like being tortured or enslaved but that is not common in the 1st world.)
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On January 23 2012 01:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal. Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant. You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices. I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'. Everyone one does is because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to.
My mind tells me many things, but I don't listen to it every time. Sometimes it even has trouble with itself deciding on things.
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Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare.
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On January 23 2012 00:42 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live. If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for. 'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view.
Well it's not like you can regret anything or be disappointed (oh what a waste) when you cease to exist.
On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare.
Removes all possible negative outcomes too.
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On January 23 2012 01:18 GigaFlop wrote:
My mind tells me many things, but I don't listen to it every time. Sometimes it even has trouble with itself deciding on things.
I don't understand what you mean by that. Do you want to imply that you believe in free will or something?
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On January 23 2012 00:43 BobbysBack wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal. Attempted suicide is illegal. The purpose, at least in the US, is to force people who attempt suicide into asylums and whatnot. It's not really a "Don't do this", so much of a "Do this and if you live we're making you take our help."
Basically this, its so that if someone in the US tries to commit suicide and lives through it, their rights can be taken away/ignored to forcibly prevent them from trying again. Considering the ridiculous amount of american teenagers who try to slit their wrists over a breakup, its a good idea.
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On January 23 2012 01:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal. Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant. You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices. I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'. Everyone does it because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to.
I didn't say that biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make, or imply anything like that.
Let me clarify my point. Depressed people who are suicidal have a much deeper problem than their current life situation being unsatisfactory. It is a mental illness, if you want to call it that, that means they can feel sometimes that they would rather be dead than carry on living. There are things that can help people who are depressed such as counseling, cognitive therapy, drugs etc. Some people don't have access to these privileges, and sometimes these treatments don't work. So some depressed people that feel suicidal have a negative feeling inside of them that can not be changed and that is so strong that it makes them want to stop living. To call this feeling stupid is to show very little understanding of the mental trauma that some suicidal people are going through.
I know almost nothing about the feelings that people with terminal illnesses experience, so I can't comment on that. But please don't make a sweeping statement like "suicide is stupid".
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On January 23 2012 01:20 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 00:42 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live. If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for. 'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view. Well it's not like you can regret anything or be disappointed (oh what a waste) when you cease to exist. Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare. Removes all possible negative outcomes too.
You are assuming that death is somehow a neutral outcome, which is ridiculous. Death is a negative outcome, so no, it does not remove all possible negative outcomes.
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On January 23 2012 01:36 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 01:20 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 00:42 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Roe wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. Not true at all. Suicide ends the pain someone is going through. How can you argue someone can just let their bone cancer, for example, behind and go to some new place and start a new life, and say that's better than suicide? Is it really true that a life of great pains and no joys is worth more than a dreamless sleep from which you will not return? Plenty of things are damning for life, and the crippling effect it has may even influence others negatively. Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone. Then there's the obvious issue of money and living in destitution, unable to escape the location/situation in which you live. If you are destined for dying (which we all are) you can still make the best of it. From a nihilists point of view, nothing matters in life but what you are enjoying from it. This means, if you are destined for dying of cancer, you still should do what brings you the most enjoyment. If you live a life 'of great pains and no joys' it is your own responsibility to get as much enjoyment out of it as you possibly can. As someone said before, death just means the will to fall into a big 'nothing'. Nothing brings no fun, thus making it useless and not something to long for. 'Even at your life's lowest low you've got something to lose by giving it to the winds, as any stability you would have had would now be gone.' - In my opinion, you never have anything to lose, at any point and at any time in your life, because everything is worthless in an objective view. Well it's not like you can regret anything or be disappointed (oh what a waste) when you cease to exist. On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
People are very bad at judging situations in general. Remember, death is a permanent state, and your emotions and psychosis are often quite temporary. Your decision to kill yourself eliminates all positive outcomes for later life. You won't have the opportunity for all the awesome things later on. It is almost always the case where killing yourself is an awful, terrible decision that no one should ever think of.
There are situations (usually people who are old, sick, and dying) where suicide is basically the optimal solution, but this is pretty case-by-case and really quite rare. Removes all possible negative outcomes too. You are assuming that death is somehow a neutral outcome, which is ridiculous. Death is a negative outcome, so no, it does not remove all possible negative outcomes.
To the dead person it is a nonoutcome...
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United States22883 Posts
Not all suicide thought processes are the same, but many are similar and there's a fundamental misunderstanding between those who have and haven't felt it. The thought is hardly ever as simple as "my life is terrible therefore I want it over." It's an issue of self worth so part of it is a belief that their life can't improve, not because their circumstances can't change, but because they believe the number one problem in their life is themselves so no matter what changes, they will always find a way to screw it up.
And in the process of changing environments or seeking help, they're wasting the time and energy of the people that care about them. Some people say suicide is selfish, and in a purely objective state of mind (which doesn't exist) it might be, but in a suicidal state, the thought is often that you're being selfish by keeping yourself alive. That if you end it, your loved ones will grieve temporarily but in the long run they'll be better for it because you won't be leeching off of them.
It is a sort of temporary insanity, because I don't think people stay in a suicidal state of mind for a long length of time and when you calm down, you can see things more clearly again. On the other hand, thinking that you were being stupid or selfish by thinking that can even further lower your self worth.
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On January 23 2012 01:33 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 01:15 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:51 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 00:46 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 00:12 Wohmfg wrote:On January 22 2012 23:58 Xiron wrote:
In my opinion suicide is stupid. If you really don't want the life you are living anymore, you can still let everything behind and go somewhere else and start a new life, which is better than suicide. You've got nothing to lose, so make the best of it. It's not a case of people being unhappy with where they live or the job they have, it's much much much deeper and more serious than that. Don't call suicide stupid. Imagine the desire you have to stay alive, the lengths people go to in order to survive. Now imagine what kind of negative emotions someone must feel to override these desires to live. Emotion mean your body is in a certain state, in which special hormones are flowing through your body and your brain. It's not a static thing which cannot possibly get changed, unless you are ill. If one is physically not able to feel positive emotions anymore, he can't make anything of his life anymore. But if you are ill, you don't know if you can be happy ever again. So it's not on your own to judge if you should end your life. Others can't help in this decision, which would be a point for hanging on. Ok just please understand that calling suicide stupid is ignorant and insensitive. And understand that starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal. Ok please just understand that calling 'biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make' is not scientific, subjective and all around ignorant. You are not bringing up any arguments, just pulling behind your subjective shield of prejudices. I for one, can see the relation between people who are depressive and their rather often suicides. Why? Because their state of mind caused them to suicide. You are just shitting on all the people that suicided because of there illnesses by saying 'starting a new life has nothing to do with the mental state of some people who are suicidal'. Everyone does it because of his state of mind. You eat because your mind tells you to, you sleep because your mind tells you to and you would start a new life because your mind tells you to. I didn't say that biochemical processes are unrelated to the decisions people make, or imply anything like that. Let me clarify my point. Depressed people who are suicidal have a much deeper problem than their current life situation being unsatisfactory. It is a mental illness, if you want to call it that, that means they can feel sometimes that they would rather be dead than carry on living. There are things that can help people who are depressed such as counseling, cognitive therapy, drugs etc. Some people don't have access to these privileges, and sometimes these treatments don't work. So some depressed people that feel suicidal have a negative feeling inside of them that can not be changed and that is so strong that it makes them want to stop living. To call this feeling stupid is to show very little understanding of the mental trauma that some suicidal people are going through. I know almost nothing about the feelings that people with terminal illnesses experience, so I can't comment on that. But please don't make a sweeping statement like "suicide is stupid".
I am in the position to call this feeling you are talking about 'stupid' because it objectively is. I totally agree with you that there are people that can not possibly ever feel happy again because of something they lived through or because of some illnesses. I understand that those persons might not want to live anymore, and it might be the right choice for them in their position. But objectively it's not, simply because giving up the only thing you truly own, your life, would be lost then and you wouldn't exist anymore.
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Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done.
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On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done.
Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives.
The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter.
The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
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On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
That's not even close to a fair analogy and only shows how little empathy you feel, and how little knowledge you have of a suicidal person.
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I don't think suicide should be frowned upon, but I think people who are contemplating it need help and should seek it. There are so many things that are better in life once you start seeking it out. You can't expect things to go smoothly and happy feel good all the time. You must reach for it on your own outside your comfort zone. And that's what is the main issue. People who feel like they want to die think they are at the end of the line, when in fact there is always help. Life gets better. Life is all about sacrifice, pain, and suffering. But at the same time there is also joy, rewards, and fun.
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On January 23 2012 02:06 Jibba wrote:
Not all suicide thought processes are the same, but many are similar and there's a fundamental misunderstanding between those who have and haven't felt it. The thought is hardly ever as simple as "my life is terrible therefore I want it over." It's an issue of self worth so part of it is a belief that their life can't improve, not because their circumstances can't change, but because they believe the number one problem in their life is themselves so no matter what changes, they will always find a way to screw it up.
And in the process of changing environments or seeking help, they're wasting the time and energy of the people that care about them. Some people say suicide is selfish, and in a purely objective state of mind (which doesn't exist) it might be, but in a suicidal state, the thought is often that you're being selfish by keeping yourself alive. That if you end it, your loved ones will grieve temporarily but in the long run they'll be better for it because you won't be leeching off of them.
It is a sort of temporary insanity, because I don't think people stay in a suicidal state of mind for a long length of time and when you calm down, you can see things more clearly again. On the other hand, thinking that you were being stupid or selfish by thinking that can even further lower your self worth.
Yeah that sounds true to me. It's a shame that suicidal ideation must be hidden or else you are treated like a criminal or a dangerous object. A suicidal person usually feels enough guilt and shame as it is, but more shame is thrust upon them for the "weakness, selfishness, cowardliness" (lets add stupidity too, since it's come up in this thread even) of thinking of suicide.
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On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible.
The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM.
Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible.
Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger.
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On January 23 2012 02:06 Jibba wrote:
Not all suicide thought processes are the same, but many are similar and there's a fundamental misunderstanding between those who have and haven't felt it. The thought is hardly ever as simple as "my life is terrible therefore I want it over." It's an issue of self worth so part of it is a belief that their life can't improve, not because their circumstances can't change, but because they believe the number one problem in their life is themselves so no matter what changes, they will always find a way to screw it up.
And in the process of changing environments or seeking help, they're wasting the time and energy of the people that care about them. Some people say suicide is selfish, and in a purely objective state of mind (which doesn't exist) it might be, but in a suicidal state, the thought is often that you're being selfish by keeping yourself alive. That if you end it, your loved ones will grieve temporarily but in the long run they'll be better for it because you won't be leeching off of them.
It is a sort of temporary insanity, because I don't think people stay in a suicidal state of mind for a long length of time and when you calm down, you can see things more clearly again. On the other hand, thinking that you were being stupid or selfish by thinking that can even further lower your self worth. This is definitely true, at least for me. You feel like deep down you're a loser, stupid, a failure..so therefore it doesn't matter what environment or situation you're in, it's not going to ever change.
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On January 23 2012 01:19 DoubleReed wrote:
Suicide isn't illegal in the typical sense of the word. If someone is suicidal then they are treated psychologically, not criminally.
Nah, I don't think you can say that. Psychological help should be a choice, but in cases of suicidal people they lose their rights of mobility, employment is much more difficult etc etc. Probably not as bad living conditions as in jail, but still pretty bad. It is a big reason why suicidal people do not say anything. Tell people you're thinking about suicide and you lose all your rights. It's really a bad situation IMO.
I think it's ok to be selfish and want the people you're dependent on to keep living, but I also think if you can't deep down have some genuine sympathy for a person who commits suicide, understand why they did so, you're really quite a disgusting product of our sociopathic culture and honestly a part of the reason people do commit suicide. The phrase "you just don't understand" sounds so juvenile, but it's often so true because we all tend to live in our own phantasy systems and like to assume that our own perceptions are the truest ones, disregarding anything the comes up to the contrary as an anomaly or a form of insanity  People often want to think they understand, but they speak too broadly, too generally, too simply, to be taken seriously by anyone who doesn't already share in their pathetic phantasy.
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On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger.
What you say is true, but not in all cases. There are as i've said before in this thread, hundreds of dumb teenagers who'd commit suicide over the end of a brief relationship. In that case, it IS stupid. Even if that sounds insensitive, I doubt anyone will argue that someone who committed suicide over a broken relationship, or something just as trivial is anything but stupid.
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On January 23 2012 02:59 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. What you say is true, but not in all cases. There are as i've said before in this thread, hundreds of dumb teenagers who'd commit suicide over the end of a brief relationship. In that case, it IS stupid. Even if that sounds insensitive, I doubt anyone will argue that someone who committed suicide over a broken relationship, or something just as trivial is anything but stupid.
It irks me that he said "suicide is stupid", and still believes that to be the case.
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On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist.
People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person.
Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations.
To the dead person it is a nonoutcome...
This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person.
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If you really believe what you wrote in the blog than you are a fucked up person. Some people get in bad situations and need someone to help them, not let them commit suicide
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On January 23 2012 03:23 FortyOzs wrote:
Some people get in bad situations and need someone to help them, not let them commit suicide
Strongly agree with this sentiment.
Suicide is taking a human being away from the world. Everyone, as a human being, has potential to improve their life, and everyone is connected to other human beings who will be affected by the death. Even if the person has no family and friends, their suicide, as the death of a human being, is tragic even to strangers. Besides, if the person had lived who knows what kind of connections they could have made.
It seems silly to label suicide as a crime, but in my opinion it is almost as serious as murder, given how the death will affect others in the person's life. It takes strong statements like that to remind the suicidal person that their life matters. You can be so irrational if you're in a really depressed state of mind, and the sad part is, you think you're being totally rational...
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On January 23 2012 03:37 jubil wrote:
Besides, if the person had lived who knows what kind of connections they could have made.
You could just as easily say that by dying, who knows how much pain and damage might be avoided from the world and to the person themselves? Which has more potential for harm, one act of suicide, or 50 years of life inflicting and receiving god knows what evil? You are just as irrational as you paint the suicidal person out to be.
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Poor sjames. I think deep down he was a nice guy, he just had so many problems fitting into the community. I'll kind of miss his "interesting" posts.
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On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger.
How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10.
Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid.
Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better.
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What sort of suicide are we talking about?
There's many variations of suicide and the human mindset behind it (mentally incapable, depressed, disease and so on)
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On January 23 2012 05:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10. Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better.
The bolded part shows that you have zero empathy for anyone who has been depressed and suicidal, and very little knowledge of the subject. I'm done, peace.
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On January 23 2012 05:25 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 05:15 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10. Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better. The bolded part shows that you have zero empathy for anyone who has been depressed and suicidal, and very little knowledge of the subject. I'm done, peace.
Well, because empathy won't ever keep people from suiciding. Since you are not attempting to anwser anymore, I'll just give you an advice:
If you cross anyone who seems to be suicidal, tell them that suicide is the right thing to do. Tell them death will be much better than living. Because if you do that, you preach what you truly believe in, so that atleast you can live a happy life.
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It's interesting that the two cultures I use to compare Shame and Guilt cultures, feudal Japan and Rome, also provide good cases of suicide.
In Japan, suicide was not an individual act at all, but a matter of honor.
Rome has 3 classical cases of suicide: Lucretia, who committed suicide as a matter of honor as well; Marc Antony, who was a coward; and Cato, who admitted that he was doing a cowardly act as did it.
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On January 23 2012 05:59 Megaliskuu wrote:
lol @ title change xD
You can't accuse the TL mods of not having a sense of humor.
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On January 23 2012 06:01 Jerubaal wrote:You can't accuse the TL mods of not having a sense of humor.
Most don't, sadly  , would be much more fun if they did.
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Nice now the discussion about suicide will die.. how ironic.
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See a psychiatrist and get some help. The things that lead to suicidal thoughts usually don't make sense once you can find some distance from them. Depression is a condition that disrupts our ability to choose. While I agree that freedom of choice is important, a living person with restricted choices is still a person -- once you die you are either nothing, or, worse, what's left of you is the pain that your suicide caused others.
Please get help.
Obviously, if this is simply an abstract argument in favor of allowing the terminally ill to die with dignity, that is a different argument (because depression is typically treatable). But I do not think it is.
Everyone knows the main symptoms of depression, but here are some of the less common symptoms of depression that can be alleviated with medication and counseling:
1. Chronic diarrea.
2. Full body pain and soreness
3. Lack of sex drive
4. Nausea
5. Insomnia
6. Lack of focus (ADHD)
My depression manifests as shame (and some physical symptoms). At my worst I had some pretty dark thoughts. After finally getting help after decades of thinking that medication and counseling were for the weak, I gained some perspective. I am glad that I did.
One other thing that can help with depression is to try to do something for other people. Working with a charity or service organization, or just helping a friend or family with something they need help with, can help us get out of our own heads -- its hard to get out from under oppressive depression when we are focused inward.
TL:DR -- the choice to commit suicide is typically made by people who are not in their right mind. Please try therapy and medication before making a final decision -- you have everything to lose.
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On January 23 2012 05:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10. Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better.
If you've never felt suicidal yourself, you don't understand it. I was suicidal for a bit and have recently been in the psych ward on a 14-day hold (can't leave). Whoever said that "it feels as though the problem is you, it's internal and it can't ever be fixed no matter how yourt circumstances change and you don't want to waste your loved one's time by trying to get help" nailed it. That's exactly how I felt.
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Also, I don't want to say that suicide is an "irrational" choice -- with so much horror, pain and anguish in the world, suicide, or more generally the idea that world is a shitty place and that life is not worth living is a defensible argument from a logical perspective.
The problem is that the disease of depression messes with our sense of proportion -- we can't shut out the negative and focus on the positive.
Negativity is almost always intellectually honest and defensible, but getting help will likely lead to you developing tools to find something(s) to live for.
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On January 23 2012 07:05 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 05:15 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:47 Wohmfg wrote:On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. Please don't talk about things you have almost no knowledge of. Your analogy is absolutely terrible. The suicidal person does not think he will feel better after suicide, he feels that ENDING HIS OWN LIFE, which negates one of the STRONGEST FEELINGS SOMEONE FEELS in their life, is better than THE NIGHTMARISH MENTAL ANGUISH HE IS SUFFERING FROM. Suicide is not some easy choice, it is not as simple a thought as "death is better than living". The two choices a suicidal person faces are so fucking terrible. Please please please please educate yourself, find some sensitivity, and realise that suicide is not something that should be seen as stupid and is not comparable to eating a burger. How do you know I dont have any knowledge of suicide? My good neighbor and friend I grew up with hanged himself, after an argument with his wife. Negating the worst feeling one can have actually means feeling better. Because you know, 0 is still more than -10. Of course suicide is not an easy choice, but choosing it is still the stupid of the two one has. Because, as I said before, even the slightest chance for a better life is much better than no life. And, as I said before, I don't say that people who commit suicide are stupid, but suicide itself is stupid. Driving drunk is stupid, too. Having unprotected sex with unknowns is stupid. Just because suicide may have a bigger effect on the person, it doesn't get any better. If you've never felt suicidal yourself, you don't understand it. I was suicidal for a bit and have recently been in the psych ward on a 14-day hold (can't leave). Whoever said that "it feels as though the problem is you, it's internal and it can't ever be fixed no matter how yourt circumstances change and you don't want to waste your loved one's time by trying to get help" nailed it. That's exactly how I felt.
I think you two are discussing different things.
Xiron is saying that the decision to kill yourself is stupid. You, for instance, did the smart, good thing in not killing yourself. There's no shame in saying so. Let yourself be proud of the fact that you overcame what must have been a difficult time of your life.
Saying that suicide is stupid would be entirely unhelpful in a situation where someone is actually suicidal, of course. It would only reinforce the feelings of hopelessness, worthlessness, and carelessness the person would be experiencing. But Xiron is not currently in that situation, so he seems to just be approaching it from a sane, logical mind. Which is fine, as long as he understands that it is not appropriate behavior if he's actually dealing with someone with suicidal thoughts.
Edit: Best title change evar lol
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While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones.
Dead people don't think. Yeah, it's not fun for the people who wanted him or her alive, but you don't own other people. The UN has frowned on slavery for kind of awhile now  It also sucks when someone you like moves away and can't contact you anymore, but we don't feel morally appalled by that (unless we are incredibly selfish).
If you cross anyone who seems to be suicidal, tell them that suicide is the right thing to do. Tell them death will be much better than living. Because if you do that, you preach what you truly believe in, so that atleast you can live a happy life.
That is a dumb argument. Just because you can accept the choices of people who've committed suicide doesn't mean that you will encourage them to commit suicide. It doesn't even mean that you won't try to make them feel better and see other options. It's just a matter of respecting that you don't own other human beings. In my country if you know someone wants to commit suicide, you can actually call the police and the suicidal person will lose their rights of mobility and be forced into treatment, drugs or otherwise. That's really quite frightening, if you ask me. It has nothing to do with helping the person, and everything to do with helping the people around them and society at large. If you don't consent to help before you've been drugged or heavily coerced (with threats against your freedom), then it's not really consent anymore. In many other situations such coercion would invalidate the consent, legally, but in this case we allow it. Why? Because this is the only way we can get people to actively function in a society which is not fit for them.
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Estonia4644 Posts
On January 23 2012 05:59 Megaliskuu wrote:
lol @ title change xD
this
made the blog so much better
2/5 now
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On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person.
The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings.
Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community.
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On January 23 2012 02:22 Barrin wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305388Show nested quote +Hello everyone.
SJames here, good to see you all again :D
I would have posted more blogs however I was (unfairly) temp banned for posting in the gay starcraft thread. It didn't really faze me because I had work.
Anyway, for those of you who don't know me, I am Serjei James. I am a controversial member of this community. I challenge the norm and seek to change peoples mindsets about various issues. However I have been unsuccessful as apparently nobody on this website tolerates anyone with a slightly differing opinion to theirs. This is unfortunate as I guess I will just remain as the pinyata for frustrated nerds with no life, who insult me to feel better about themselves. I have received hate-mail, death threats and many abusive comments.
Now on to today's topic : Suicide. and history
I love that this guy thought he was a controversial member of TL. Talk about not having a fucking clue. Knowing that he did the same stupid shit on GosuGamers, it's almost a little sad. Guy has nothing better to do than go from site to site epically failing at trolling.
Also was that title edit from Chill?
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On January 23 2012 06:06 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 06:01 Jerubaal wrote:On January 23 2012 05:59 Megaliskuu wrote:
lol @ title change xD You can't accuse the TL mods of not having a sense of humor. Most don't, sadly , would be much more fun if they did.
It'd be much less fun to browse this site if they did. No-nonsense, strict mods keep shitposters like myself to a minimum
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On January 23 2012 09:18 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. To the dead person it is a nonoutcome... This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person. The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings. Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community.
Well no. Let's say I'm suicidal. I have a mom and dad. They care about me and I care about them. If I kill myself, my mom and dad gets sad. That's bad from my perspective, because I care about my parents. I don't want my parents to feel sad. Sure, I'm dead at that point, so my wants and desires don't really count, but we're talking about the decision itself, at which point I'm still alive.
I don't really understand how you have a perspective without community. Most of our lives is how we deal with our communities. How could you possibly take that out of the equation? No human, suicidal or not, would ever consider that.
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On January 23 2012 11:15 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 09:18 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. To the dead person it is a nonoutcome... This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person. The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings. Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community. Well no. Let's say I'm suicidal. I have a mom and dad. They care about me and I care about them. If I kill myself, my mom and dad gets sad. That's bad from my perspective, because I care about my parents. I don't want my parents to feel sad. Sure, I'm dead at that point, so my wants and desires don't really count, but we're talking about the decision itself, at which point I'm still alive. I don't really understand how you have a perspective without community. Most of our lives is how we deal with our communities. How could you possibly take that out of the equation? No human, suicidal or not, would ever consider that.
uhh the dead have no community?
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On January 23 2012 06:06 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 06:01 Jerubaal wrote:On January 23 2012 05:59 Megaliskuu wrote:
lol @ title change xD You can't accuse the TL mods of not having a sense of humor. Most don't, sadly
Entirely false
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Maybe I missed it, but has someone responded to suicide in the cases of extreme, constant pain?
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On January 23 2012 11:15 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 09:18 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. To the dead person it is a nonoutcome... This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person. The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings. Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community. Well no. Let's say I'm suicidal. I have a mom and dad. They care about me and I care about them. If I kill myself, my mom and dad gets sad. That's bad from my perspective, because I care about my parents. I don't want my parents to feel sad. Sure, I'm dead at that point, so my wants and desires don't really count, but we're talking about the decision itself, at which point I'm still alive. I don't really understand how you have a perspective without community. Most of our lives is how we deal with our communities. How could you possibly take that out of the equation? No human, suicidal or not, would ever consider that.
Yes, but you're suffering. You have a choice to make, you can continue to suffer, to live only to avoid harming your parents... or you can end your suffering, and in turn bring sadness to your family.
You have to choose between dying for yourself, or living so others don't have to be pained by your death. It is hard to justify living for other people, when you do not live for yourself.
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On January 23 2012 12:59 Kanil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 11:15 DoubleReed wrote:On January 23 2012 09:18 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. To the dead person it is a nonoutcome... This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person. The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings. Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community. Well no. Let's say I'm suicidal. I have a mom and dad. They care about me and I care about them. If I kill myself, my mom and dad gets sad. That's bad from my perspective, because I care about my parents. I don't want my parents to feel sad. Sure, I'm dead at that point, so my wants and desires don't really count, but we're talking about the decision itself, at which point I'm still alive. I don't really understand how you have a perspective without community. Most of our lives is how we deal with our communities. How could you possibly take that out of the equation? No human, suicidal or not, would ever consider that. Yes, but you're suffering. You have a choice to make, you can continue to suffer, to live only to avoid harming your parents... or you can end your suffering, and in turn bring sadness to your family. You have to choose between dying for yourself, or living so others don't have to be pained by your death. It is hard to justify living for other people, when you do not live for yourself.
That was not the question. It was whether or not death is a neutral outcome or a negative outcome. It's clearly a negative outcome. Saying that living is also a negative outcome does not matter.
Look, try to think of it is a utility-function-wise as possible. Clearly the sadness you bring to others is going to be on the bad side, regardless of whether you are still living to care. Clearly any possible future happiness you are giving up is on the negative side. Any perceived terrible things you have going on in your life that will end is on the positive side.
That's all I'm saying.
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On January 23 2012 13:20 DoubleReed wrote:
That was not the question. It was whether or not death is a neutral outcome or a negative outcome. It's clearly a negative outcome. Saying that living is also a negative outcome does not matter.
Look, try to think of it is a utility-function-wise as possible. Clearly the sadness you bring to others is going to be on the bad side, regardless of whether you are still living to care. Clearly any possible future happiness you are giving up is on the negative side. Any perceived terrible things you have going on in your life that will end is on the positive side.
That's all I'm saying.
If death were to end your pain, how is it "clearly a negative outcome"? It has the negative aspect of hurting your loved ones, but that doesn't mean it is only negative. "Any future happiness given up" is outweighed by future pain given up in the view of the suicidal person.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 23 2012 10:25 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:22 Barrin wrote:On January 23 2012 02:12 Sawamura wrote:
Why did op get nuked ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305388Hello everyone.
SJames here, good to see you all again :D
I would have posted more blogs however I was (unfairly) temp banned for posting in the gay starcraft thread. It didn't really faze me because I had work.
Anyway, for those of you who don't know me, I am Serjei James. I am a controversial member of this community. I challenge the norm and seek to change peoples mindsets about various issues. However I have been unsuccessful as apparently nobody on this website tolerates anyone with a slightly differing opinion to theirs. This is unfortunate as I guess I will just remain as the pinyata for frustrated nerds with no life, who insult me to feel better about themselves. I have received hate-mail, death threats and many abusive comments.
Now on to today's topic : Suicide. and history I love that this guy thought he was a controversial member of TL. Talk about not having a fucking clue. Knowing that he did the same stupid shit on GosuGamers, it's almost a little sad. Guy has nothing better to do than go from site to site epically failing at trolling. Also was that title edit from Chill?
How'd you know?
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On January 23 2012 13:58 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 10:25 TheToast wrote:On January 23 2012 02:22 Barrin wrote:On January 23 2012 02:12 Sawamura wrote:
Why did op get nuked ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305388Hello everyone.
SJames here, good to see you all again :D
I would have posted more blogs however I was (unfairly) temp banned for posting in the gay starcraft thread. It didn't really faze me because I had work.
Anyway, for those of you who don't know me, I am Serjei James. I am a controversial member of this community. I challenge the norm and seek to change peoples mindsets about various issues. However I have been unsuccessful as apparently nobody on this website tolerates anyone with a slightly differing opinion to theirs. This is unfortunate as I guess I will just remain as the pinyata for frustrated nerds with no life, who insult me to feel better about themselves. I have received hate-mail, death threats and many abusive comments.
Now on to today's topic : Suicide. and history I love that this guy thought he was a controversial member of TL. Talk about not having a fucking clue. Knowing that he did the same stupid shit on GosuGamers, it's almost a little sad. Guy has nothing better to do than go from site to site epically failing at trolling. Also was that title edit from Chill? How'd you know?
Lol because it's always you.
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On January 23 2012 13:20 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 12:59 Kanil wrote:On January 23 2012 11:15 DoubleReed wrote:On January 23 2012 09:18 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. To the dead person it is a nonoutcome... This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person. The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings. Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community. Well no. Let's say I'm suicidal. I have a mom and dad. They care about me and I care about them. If I kill myself, my mom and dad gets sad. That's bad from my perspective, because I care about my parents. I don't want my parents to feel sad. Sure, I'm dead at that point, so my wants and desires don't really count, but we're talking about the decision itself, at which point I'm still alive. I don't really understand how you have a perspective without community. Most of our lives is how we deal with our communities. How could you possibly take that out of the equation? No human, suicidal or not, would ever consider that. Yes, but you're suffering. You have a choice to make, you can continue to suffer, to live only to avoid harming your parents... or you can end your suffering, and in turn bring sadness to your family. You have to choose between dying for yourself, or living so others don't have to be pained by your death. It is hard to justify living for other people, when you do not live for yourself. That was not the question. It was whether or not death is a neutral outcome or a negative outcome. It's clearly a negative outcome. Saying that living is also a negative outcome does not matter.Look, try to think of it is a utility-function-wise as possible. Clearly the sadness you bring to others is going to be on the bad side, regardless of whether you are still living to care. Clearly any possible future happiness you are giving up is on the negative side. Any perceived terrible things you have going on in your life that will end is on the positive side. That's all I'm saying.
Nope thats never been the question but i answered you anyway that it's a nonoutcome.
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On January 23 2012 11:59 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 11:15 DoubleReed wrote:On January 23 2012 09:18 ShadeR wrote:On January 23 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2012 02:20 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:16 Wohmfg wrote:
Just imagine telling a suicidal person that their decision is stupid. If you're ok with that then I'm done. Just imagine telling a fat person that their decision to eat a BigMac is stupid. If you're ok with that then you should realize that telling a suicidal person that 'suicide is stupid' is true. They are not doing anyone a favor; neither by eating the 1000th BigMac nor taking their own lives. The fat person will think he will feel better after that burger but in reality he'll only get fatter. The suicidal person thinks he will feel better after suicide but in reality he will only cease to exist. People are getting offended because calling a suicidal person stupid would probably only make the issue worse. I mean if the person really thinks they are worthless and you call them stupid, then you aren't helping. You're making them feel worse about themselves. I don't think people are getting offended because the decision itself is intelligent or stupid. They're saying this is absolutely the worse mindset if you ever have to deal with a suicidal person. Although "stupid" is probably incorrect anyway. I don't think it's an intelligence thing. Smart people are still vulnerable to a lot of illogical, irrational, and biased thinking. People, even smart people, aren't the best judges of their own situations. To the dead person it is a nonoutcome... This is only true if the dead person has absolutely no one that he himself cares about. While the dead person may think he doesn't, it would still be negative outcome for the dead person's family and loved ones. If he cares about someone, and then they are harmed emotionally by the suicide, then it would still be a negative outcome for the dead person. The person is dead there are no more outcomes. Unless of course you believe that, that which ceases to exist can still have feelings. Our difference in opinion might be because are aren't on the same page. Your looking at the net result of suicide from the perspective of a community and i'm looking at it from the perspective of that which has no community. Well no. Let's say I'm suicidal. I have a mom and dad. They care about me and I care about them. If I kill myself, my mom and dad gets sad. That's bad from my perspective, because I care about my parents. I don't want my parents to feel sad. Sure, I'm dead at that point, so my wants and desires don't really count, but we're talking about the decision itself, at which point I'm still alive. I don't really understand how you have a perspective without community. Most of our lives is how we deal with our communities. How could you possibly take that out of the equation? No human, suicidal or not, would ever consider that. uhh the dead have no community?
New TL for dead people. We'll have Genghis Khan posting mad strats for TvT or better yet have Napoleon teach Stephano a trick or two ^^
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EPT
