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A Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 14

Blogs > EGalex
Post a Reply
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sugatooth
Profile Joined September 2011
United States52 Posts
December 15 2011 15:53 GMT
#261
Awesome write-up! Thanks for sharing it!
rage your dream
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 15 2011 15:54 GMT
#262
Tossing out funny numbers. Come on now, this isn't a sales meeting.

Dig deep.

There are (for the most part) three kinds of situations in which players usually throw matches, or don't put forth maximum effort. There's Scenario A, in which throwing the match would be in the player's own best interests (example: Stephano vs. BratOK at Assembly Summer 2011, in which both players did their best to the lose the match because they each wanted to avoid facing Sen in bracket play). There's Scenario B, in which the match is meaningless for the player himself, but has meaning for his opponent and/or a third-party (example: IdrA vs. White-Ra at the IPL3 Finals, in which IdrA forfeited because he had already qualified for bracket play - which was seeded randomly - and wanted to get some rest). And then, there's Scenario C, in which the match is truly meaningless, and throwing it would be due purely to the fact that the player (for whatever reason) doesn't put forth the time and effort required to play for real (example: NaNi's probe rush vs. NesTea, which sparked all of the recent community discussion and commentary, including this blog).

Scenarios A, B, and C all happen, regularly, in professional sports. At the end of almost every regular season in leagues like the NFL, NBA, NHL and Major League Baseball, there are teams that have the opportunity to determine their first-round playoff opponent, or to prevent a certain team from qualifying for the playoffs, by tanking a couple of games (Scenario A). And, during absolutely every regular season in such leagues, there are teams who are eliminated from playoff contention well before the season is over, but still have to play out their schedules in full - including games against other teams who are still in the playoff hunt (Scenario B). And, lastly, also every regular season in such leagues, there are games late in the schedule between teams who have both already been eliminated from playoff contention (Scenario C).

Now, to be fair, there's a difference between throwing a match, and not putting forth maximum effort, and just not playing well - and that difference is subject to a massive gray area. Professional sports teams often bench their best players in the final game of the regular season, if they've already made the playoffs and their playoff opponent has already been determined. Does that mean that they're throwing the game? Most would say, no. But, what about a sports team that does have something to gain by losing its last game of the season, and starts its best players, but they all happen to have off days? Did the team throw the match? Did the players not try as hard as they could've? Or did the the team try hard, but just not play well? That's a much more complex question, with no uniform answer.

Additionally, while most would agree that flat out throwing a match isn't a good thing, things get much murkier when the subject shifts to effort and passion. Is it necessarily unacceptable, dishonorable or disrespectful to the sport for a team or player to not put forth maximum effort, every game or match? Again, that's a complicated question, and it has no blanket answer. For a highly-paid player or team that's phoning it in on a regular basis, many would say the answer is yes. But, if two last-place MLB teams are facing off on the last day of the regular season, should both sides really be expected to play their hearts out? Many would say, no.

--

The bottom line is that players and teams - in all professional sports - regularly find themselves in Scenarios A, B, and C. And they correspondingly - in all professional sports - throw matches; don't try their hardest on every occasion; and play poorly at convenient times. Furthermore, in most of these situations, it's not even possible to discern which of those three (or what combination thereof) is truly the case - let alone to try and determine, with any level of certainty, whether or not what's happened is unacceptable, or dishonorable, or disrespectful to the sport and its community. Essentially, for the vast majority of situations like these, there are two massive layers of subjectivity standing in the way of any objective conclusion or analysis. That's why you very rarely see league officials involve themselves in such matters.

But if that's the case, then what's the point of this very, very long - sorry... it's just my style - write-up? I stated at the beginning of this blog that NaNiwa's decision to probe rush NesTea was absolutely unacceptable; that I believe everyone in our community should view it as unacceptable; and that I support GOM's decision to levy punishment on NaNi (the severity of the punishment is a different subject altogether). Yet, I've basically used the past five paragraphs to make the argument that... well... that it's not really possible to put together a definitive argument about situations like this one; that they're all just part of professional sports.

So, what's my point?

My point is that in all of the scenarios, examples, and hypotheticals I've outlined above, the player or team - at the very least - still did its job, put on a show for the spectators, and delivered a quality product to its respective league. All of them, of course, except for the one we're all so feverishly discussing.


Direct, community-to-industry revenue is the single, most important aspect of both the short- and long-term stability and growth of eSports. The StarCraft 2 community's willingness and enthusiasm to support its teams, players, and tournaments - by watching ads on their streams, buying their merchandise, and purchasing their subscriptions and season passes - has contributed, more than any other factor, to the amazing growth we've seen over the past year and a half. The term "ecosystem" is a buzzword as of late for those of us on the business side of the industry, because we all recognize the fact that in order for eSports to keep growing and find stability, the industry needs to become more self-sustaining, and less reliant on outside income, like corporate sponsorships.

In line with this, selling subscriptions and season passes is, obviously, crucially important to GOM.TV's business model. And ultimately, the quality of their product is defined by the entertainment value of their matches. So, when one of the world's most famous players, in an exciting grudge match (regardless of the players' records in their group), decides to probe rush in front of thousands upon thousands of spectators, many of whom are paying subscribers, he's single-handedly denying GOM a quality product to deliver to its consumer base. That is, simply, unacceptable. It is, objectively, bad for everyone who cares about eSports.



For the most part three scenarios? Yes, let's skip over all the scenarios that resonate with what Johan did. That's smart.

You willingly choose to ignore them because it doesn't help your argument. Cool beans.


Let me present Scenario D: your team is near the bottom of the league and making the playoffs doesn't look eminent. The team lacks confidence, players start questioning the game-plan and they start slacking off. The team is in utter turmoil.

Fans still show up to the games, but boo at the product they see. That ticket entitles them to boo, but everything else is considered over excessive.

Can I ask for my money back from the ticket booth because Phil Kessel didn't score or come back on the back check to stop Eric Staal from scoring? He should have had plenty of gas in the tank! He was only out there for twenty-four seconds!

Can I get my money back because Vince Carter is playing as if he wants a trade? (Sadly this was the case for the last couple of years he was in Toronto)

Likewise, the fans boo the shit out of him anytime he comes back.

Please,

Lots of players don't always show up for work and the effort & passion gets displaced for whatever reason. The coach will keep giving them opportunities to prove themselves, but if a player is really in a funk. That's when the coach will bench them or worse. If they are a star player they will keep giving them the benefit of the doubt. Sort of like what you did with IdrA, no?


*

There are plenty of scenarios where players face adversity like Johan. They all have their reasons.

Here's the thing,

They are all human. They all do stupid shit. It happens to the best of us.

It's very awkward when another manager/CEO feels its their duty to speak out against another team's player when it comes to work ethic. It's just something you don't fucking do in the professional sports. Good thing this is esports right?

Sure, your player takes a jab at another or some shit goes down on the playing field and you feel compelled to speak. That's a different scenario though!

Remember, we're talking about work ethic! If anything, I would think you would be more understandable in this circumstance. You've had to deal with Greg this entire time. If anything, I would think this would bring you closer to Mark more than anything else. You should know firsthand at how difficult it can be to manage certain players.

You know, I really enjoy the fact that your so forthcoming and outspoken about such scenarios unlike other CEOs and managers, but sometimes I think you need to hold back a little more.
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
December 15 2011 15:54 GMT
#263
On December 16 2011 00:47 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 00:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The people who agree with GOMs decision obviously think that this was the right way to handle the "throwing game" issue. So this is a rule and a principle you agree should be used in a global event. I expect all of you to demand very harsh punishments for anyone who does anything similar in any global/international tournament after this. The main arguement seems to be the one of sportsmanship and professionalism. That means that whether the game is broadcasted or not shouldnt matter and the size of the tournamens is not important either. The principle you claim to stand for now you must defend after this, regardless of the player, team, nationality.


Uhm, ok?


And you are supporting everyone throwing their matches left and right because they don't feel like playing no matter the audience or anythign?...


If we are talking about professionalism it doesnt matter if the audience is 300 or 10 000. I personally didnt mind players throwing meaningless games before this happened, and i wont mind after this.
SirScoots
Profile Joined December 2010
United States138 Posts
December 15 2011 15:58 GMT
#264
You had me at Please...
Lumber1000jack
Profile Joined February 2011
United States10 Posts
December 15 2011 15:58 GMT
#265
Absolutely great post. You tried your best to cover all the points and all sides, even those opposing, and then stated your point without making it a personal vendetta against NaNiwa. This is a great example of how to write a post like this. Also I agree with your point 100%, the games are for the fans and for GOM just as much the player; that's what it means to be an entertainer.
I speak words that sense make
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10800 Posts
December 15 2011 16:00 GMT
#266
On December 16 2011 00:50 Stringy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 00:44 Velr wrote:
On December 16 2011 00:42 Stringy wrote:
On December 16 2011 00:37 Velr wrote:
Brilliant post .

I don't get why people don't see the problem. You don't purposefully lose a game, it's the worst thing a progamer can do.
He can not give is all to it. Thats fine (just cannonrush/4 gate... who cares, play something that could win).
He can play some weird shit. Thats fine (even Bratok and Stephano, while obviously wanting to lose did this and i was actually entertained by that offensive Hatchery/Spinecrawler-Rush vs BC-Rush game).
He can not just send his first probes in the direction of his opponent and remove his hand from the keyboard/stop playing.



You enjoy being fooled for your own amusement?


IFirst and foremost I enjoy being amused. If you have to fool me to amuse me, then i support you to fool me.

I don't expect the best game ever from two players being 0-3 in their group. BUT i expect a game. What Stephano and Bratok did was wrong too, but it was WAY better than what Naniwa did. Stephano/Bratok still delivered a game, Naniwa did not.


Ok. Just to make sure we are on the same page. As long your amused you don't care if you've just been tricked or deceived into that joy... doesn't matter how or why, so long as your being amused?

I guess ignorance really is bliss.

edit: nice ninja edit


Are you actually trying to be as daft as possible?
I want to see the better player or my fav win when both playeres give their best.

Now this is unliekly in a case where the game does not matter or losing actually gives a later advantage, as it was in Stephano vs Bratok or the recent Naniwa/Nestea. Everyone has to accept this but the fact is simple:
The gameis broadcasted to thousands of viewers which expect to see a game, if possible a good or at least entertaining one, but most of all a game.
What NO ONE wants to see is a professional losing in the fastest way possible because he does not feel like playing. It does not matter if you or others do not care about tournament games that do not matter anymore. There are people that care about Nestea vs Naniwa, GOM cared (and paid) for Nestea vs Naniwa and did not get what they have paid for, therefore they punished Naniwa.


I agree 100% with the OP and i really don't see how anyone can disagree.


Btw: There is one thing i see diffrent. I thinkt he punishment is pretty mild.
Lumber1000jack
Profile Joined February 2011
United States10 Posts
December 15 2011 16:03 GMT
#267
On December 16 2011 00:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The people who agree with GOMs decision obviously think that this was the right way to handle the "throwing game" issue. So this is a rule and a principle you agree should be used in a global event. I expect all of you to demand very harsh punishments for anyone who does anything similar in any global/international tournament after this. The main arguement seems to be the one of sportsmanship and professionalism. That means that whether the game is broadcasted or not shouldnt matter and the size of the tournamens is not important either. The principle you claim to stand for now you must defend after this, regardless of the player, team, nationality.


I think you missed the point then. Yes he said that the professionalism should be there not to do this, but his reasoning for agreeing with GOM is that NaNiwa's decision hurt their buisness, and all of Esports on some scale, as his games were a product of GOM and of Esports. A game thrown that blatantly would have repercussions in any sport and it should be the same for Esports.
I speak words that sense make
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
December 15 2011 16:05 GMT
#268
Alex Garfield wrote:

*For those of you eager to pull out the pitchforks, the IPL3/White-Ra situation is quite different; at the time of IdrA's match against White-Ra, IPL3 was already behind schedule, and didn't even have time to broadcast all of its remaining group play matches.
Last edit: 2011-12-15 19:11:49


You truly care about professionalism and sportsmanship then what has the broadcasting situation got to do with anything?
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10800 Posts
December 15 2011 16:10 GMT
#269
A broadcasted game is a game that fans will and can see.
A not broadcasted game will never be seen and therefore the fans don't get "robbed" of a game?
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 18:31:08
December 15 2011 16:12 GMT
#270
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.

In Idra's case vs Nerchio, as also in Naniwa's and others; tilt may play a more serious role than considered here. If an athlete is injured, he can't play and has to go on the bench. In esports psychology is as important. While I personally never get on tilt enough to be unable to play, there are people who do, and I respect that.

Also, this is one game in a set of 10 (+ possible triple rounds of tiebreaks). It doesn't break significantly the flow of the daily broadcast, there's no need for tickets to be returned, the TV crew did not get set up with nothing to be televised etc. That's why the comparison to a fully forfeited match in most other sports is unfair. The fair comparison would be, if enough players of that set in the SC2 event refused to play altogether, so that no games could be played / televised / spectated live in the studio.

edit: Nazgul mentioned another interesting argument which is betting. But to that I'd say part of the odds implicitly include the possibility that one player just forfeits the game for some personal or technical reason.

edit2: One last thing. To me, a community that punishes the only people who are honest enough to publicly forfeit, is in trouble. We should uphold what Naniwa, Coca, and Idra have done. Maybe not their chosen administrative approach, but the essence of their statement. They showed a rare level of maturity and honesty. And I'd wish everyone would clearly forfeit, when they can't play or don't want to win a game; instead of simulating or deceiving the audience.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
December 15 2011 16:16 GMT
#271
On December 16 2011 01:10 Velr wrote:
A broadcasted game is a game that fans will and can see.
A not broadcasted game will never be seen and therefore the fans don't get "robbed" of a game?


So if the game is broadcasted it is bad sportsmanship and unprofessional but without the broadcast its not. Amazing way of living up to the principles and values everyone is praising and demanding.
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
December 15 2011 16:16 GMT
#272
On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.

What i read & heard, Naniwa asked GOM to forfeit the game, but GOM didn't allow it. Thus the outcome we've discussing now.
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
December 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#273
I don't know all the back door dealings of the e-sports world, but isn't this sort of thing breach of contract?

I'm sure his team paid for him to be there, GOM paid to have him at the studio AND for it to be broadcast on TV and above all that he refused to hold up his end of the bargain which is to...play a video game. It's like someone working at McDonalds who decides he's bored and sits in the ball pit for the last hour of his shift. He'd get fired on the spot.

I mean that's where it comes to me, yes, you can derive the whole "unprofessional" critique from that, but for me it simply comes down to him not doing the job he's being paid to do.
korendir
Profile Joined August 2011
Singapore259 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 16:18:20
December 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#274
On December 15 2011 23:11 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 22:55 CharlieBrownsc wrote:
I don't agree with your sentiment that it is a pro players responsibility to put on a good show for the spectators. No pro practices hours upon hours so he can put on good shows, no pro motivates himself by saying "if I practice these couple more hours I can put on a better show." Associating entertainment with a pro players job is silly IMO. You play to win the game. Period. For Naniwa, this game was the blizzard cup, of which he could not win, so he did not play. Very simple, very understandable.

Boxer disagrees.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

In fact when asked, most Korean progamers will tell you that they play for the fans.

Anyway, on topic, this is a great blog, huge props to EGAlex for taking the time to write it.


Exactly. This is exactly how I felt, but you sir, just put it the right way.

Great article imo.

I really think that he made a mistake and got his punishment, has accepted it and seemed sorry. What I 'd prefer is letting him learn from it instead of continually throwing it in his face by having 100001 forum posts arguing about whether he's right or wrong.

Naniwa keep on fighting!
Zaranth
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States345 Posts
December 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#275
Thanks for the post, I've been thinking about these types of things and glad you wrote them down in a well-thought-out manner.

My thought is (and I apologize if it's been discussed already, no time to read all comments) is about the timing. With these pro sports teams, days and or weeks go by between the matches. For example, two last-place teams that are playing only for "pride" still have a few days or a whole week to take the time to mentally focus and prepare for the coming match. I feel that comparing the NaNiwa - NesTea match to a pro sports match does not, therefore, have the same effect. NaNiwa has said in his statements that he was mentally exhausted. He stated that he had a strategy explicitly set up for this match, but he was unable to execute it because of his mental state, left over from the previous matches. Therefore I wonder, if he had been given one or two days to recover from the losses and mentally psyche himself up, get into a better state of mind, etc ... would we have seen the same outcome? I highly doubt it, especially in that match-up.
Maker of Cheerfuls @eZaranth
EvOr
Profile Joined July 2011
France48 Posts
December 15 2011 16:18 GMT
#276
On December 16 2011 01:16 Grettin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.

What i read & heard, Naniwa asked GOM to forfeit the game, but GOM didn't allow it. Thus the outcome we've discussing now.


Wrong, Naniwa said the contrary himself on Lo3. He never asked gom to forfeit.
Pazuzu
Profile Joined July 2011
United States632 Posts
December 15 2011 16:22 GMT
#277
good write up - but the major league sports example was rather out of context....NFL coaches pull star players when the game no longer matters; baseball plays minor league guys when the game doesn't matter etc. I agree that what Naniwa did was unprofessional and objectively I can see why GOM TV had to do what they did (as you say its a part of the business model etc) but the general public is faulting him for a mistake that is VERY overblown simply because of the controversy surrounding Nestea and Naniwa. The trash talk at MLG providence made this a 'relevant' match even though from the standpoint of the tournament it was irrelevant
"It is because intuition is sometimes right, that we don't know what to do with it"
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 16:29:31
December 15 2011 16:23 GMT
#278
I would ask you to consider holding players to higher standards of professionalism; and to also consider the fact that it's not GOM's responsibility to cater their format solely to suit players. GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers, while providing its competitors with fair, reasonable playing conditions, and the Blizzard Cup's format balanced these factors acceptably. Additionally, I would also point out the fact that, as illustrated above, every major professional sports league utilizes a format in which there are meaningless games. By your logic, All-Star games shouldn't even exist.


Sorry, I couldn't help myself! Have a bone to pick at this paragraph too.

*

If you want us to hold players to higher standards of professionalism then perhaps you should do so yourself. I've already explained this in my above post, but I'll dig deeper:

In some scenarios general managers and coaches are fined by the league if they cross certain boundaries. One of them being, speaking out about a player's work ethic that isn't on your team.

Now let me address GOM. Let's say GOM was the actual team that you came out to see. You bought your ticket to the dance. You have the right to boo or cheer. Certain players show up for work (MMA, MVP, etc.) whereas others don't.

I like hockey, so I'll continue down that road. I'd say Johan showed up for the first fifty minutes of the game. He put up a valiant effort, but he fell apart in the last ten minutes as the game became lopsided. The effort and passion was there in the first fifty. People cheered, but as it became a blowout. The fans started to boo!

I think you get the picture. We have to look at the whole.

Once again, the team played their heart in the first fifty, but once the game didn't matter anymore. Shit hit the fan and stupid penalties were taken (Johan took a fighting major and a game misconduct). It's just one game. Have to wait till the next day!

That's how I picture it anyway.

--

Now let me touch base on All-Star games. Your right. All-Star games shouldn't exist. Have you seen the new NHL All-Star format let alone how players make the team? It's a total travesty and if anything. Several of the players who are going to make it don't necessarily deserve to be there. Not all All-Star games are bad though. Take the MLB for example. They finally came around and made their All-Star game meaningful again, as home field advantage is up for grabs in the World Series. More than just bragging rights. Players now have more incentive to play and voting the right players is more meaningful again.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10800 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 16:24:08
December 15 2011 16:23 GMT
#279
On December 16 2011 01:16 Fjodorov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 01:10 Velr wrote:
A broadcasted game is a game that fans will and can see.
A not broadcasted game will never be seen and therefore the fans don't get "robbed" of a game?


So if the game is broadcasted it is bad sportsmanship and unprofessional but without the broadcast its not. Amazing way of living up to the principles and values everyone is praising and demanding.


I never said that, no one has.

It's bad sportmanship either way and i'm against it in both cases BUT in one case it is actually "hurting" the tournament and the audience and in the other it isn't. Thats why one is worse.

I seriously hope your just trying to troll...
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
December 15 2011 16:24 GMT
#280
On December 16 2011 01:18 EvOr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 01:16 Grettin wrote:
On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.

What i read & heard, Naniwa asked GOM to forfeit the game, but GOM didn't allow it. Thus the outcome we've discussing now.


Wrong, Naniwa said the contrary himself on Lo3. He never asked gom to forfeit.
To me, what he did was an honest forfeit.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
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