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On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.
In Idra's case vs Nerchio, as also in Naniwa's and others; tilt may play a more serious role than considered here. If an athlete is injured, he can't play and has to go on the bench. In esports psychology is as important. While I personally never get on tilt enough to be unable to play, there are people who do, and I respect that.
Also, this is one game in a set of 10 (+ possible triple rounds of tiebreaks). It doesn't break significantly the flow of the daily broadcast, there's no need for tickets to be returned, the TV crew did not get set up with nothing to be televised etc. That's why the comparison to a fully forfeited match in most other sports is unfair. The fair comparison would be, if enough players in the SC2 event refused to play altogether, so that no games could be played.
This.
... and as totally not CEO of anything, I don't agree with OP points despite some logic and long arguments.
I don't care for simulation matches. Let's pretend it matters? What for? Players goal is to win tournaments, team goal is to make profit.
Corporate way of ''professionally growing eSports'' will work, of course leading to mass viewers, but much less human like personalities and passion - just work.
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The only difference is that NaNiwa is a player, not a team manager. For all we know, he might not give a rat's ass about the growth of eSports, or the sustainability of certain business models, and that's completely legitimate.
Whether his team has a policy that says players should or shouldn't throw away games, that's their business. Not the broadcasters', and not the viewers'.
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On December 16 2011 01:25 Genestealer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.
In Idra's case vs Nerchio, as also in Naniwa's and others; tilt may play a more serious role than considered here. If an athlete is injured, he can't play and has to go on the bench. In esports psychology is as important. While I personally never get on tilt enough to be unable to play, there are people who do, and I respect that.
Also, this is one game in a set of 10 (+ possible triple rounds of tiebreaks). It doesn't break significantly the flow of the daily broadcast, there's no need for tickets to be returned, the TV crew did not get set up with nothing to be televised etc. That's why the comparison to a fully forfeited match in most other sports is unfair. The fair comparison would be, if enough players in the SC2 event refused to play altogether, so that no games could be played. This. ... and as totally not CEO of anything, I don't agree with OP points despite some logic and long arguments. I don't care for simulation matches. Let's pretend it matters? What for? Players goal is to win tournaments, team goal is to make profit. Corporate way of ''professionally growing eSports'' will work, of course leading to mass viewers, but much less human like personalities and passion - just work.
Yeah, because in basically every other sport there is no passion anymore because the players are not allowed to drop games in the most obvious way.
-.-
SERIOUSLY... Do you guys even think before posting?
I don't give a shit about the growth of ESports.. I was a happy Panda watching SC/BW but what Naniwa did was just wrong and got rightfully punished.
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Great write-up. EXACTLY my thoughts =)
If some NBA team walked off the court after tip-off because their game didnt matter/they were too tired etc, that shit wouldn't go down too well with the NBA. Banhammers and fines would be thrown around, for sure.
Next time Naniwa, please play because its what professionals do.
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On December 16 2011 01:28 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:25 Genestealer wrote:On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.
In Idra's case vs Nerchio, as also in Naniwa's and others; tilt may play a more serious role than considered here. If an athlete is injured, he can't play and has to go on the bench. In esports psychology is as important. While I personally never get on tilt enough to be unable to play, there are people who do, and I respect that.
Also, this is one game in a set of 10 (+ possible triple rounds of tiebreaks). It doesn't break significantly the flow of the daily broadcast, there's no need for tickets to be returned, the TV crew did not get set up with nothing to be televised etc. That's why the comparison to a fully forfeited match in most other sports is unfair. The fair comparison would be, if enough players in the SC2 event refused to play altogether, so that no games could be played. This. ... and as totally not CEO of anything, I don't agree with OP points despite some logic and long arguments. I don't care for simulation matches. Let's pretend it matters? What for? Players goal is to win tournaments, team goal is to make profit. Corporate way of ''professionally growing eSports'' will work, of course leading to mass viewers, but much less human like personalities and passion - just work. Yeah, because in basically every other sport there is no passion anymore because the players are not allowed to drop games in the most obvious way. -.- SERIOUSLY... Do you guys even think before posting? I don't give a shit about the growth of ESports.. I was a happy Panda watching SC/BW but what Naniwa did was just wrong and got rightfully punished.
In unrelevant games? There is not. Or u know some?
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On December 16 2011 01:16 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:10 Velr wrote:
A broadcasted game is a game that fans will and can see.
A not broadcasted game will never be seen and therefore the fans don't get "robbed" of a game? So if the game is broadcasted it is bad sportsmanship and unprofessional but without the broadcast its not. Amazing way of living up to the principles and values everyone is praising and demanding.
You still seem to be missing the point. The main point isn't that it was unprofessional, which it was, but that what he did wasn't his decision to make. He had a responsibility to GOM and to the SC community to show games the were entertaining. Had he just done a simple all in such as a proxy 2 gate or a 4 gate it still would have been enjoyable to watch while having his desired effect of ending the game, and nothing more would have been said about it. However he chose to do something not enjoyably to watch, which also went against GOM's rule of no throwing games. When Idra forfeited to WhiteRa, yes maybe not entirely professional, but those games wouldn't have been streamed anyway, so he was only effecting himself and WhiteRa, not robbing IPL or the community such as NaNiwa did. They are two completely different scenarios that can not be compared. The game that Idra forfeited against Nerchio on stream, is compareable however, and that is why Alex stepped in and had words with Idra.
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Please just let SirScoots talk. :D
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On December 16 2011 01:29 Genestealer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:28 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 01:25 Genestealer wrote:On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.
In Idra's case vs Nerchio, as also in Naniwa's and others; tilt may play a more serious role than considered here. If an athlete is injured, he can't play and has to go on the bench. In esports psychology is as important. While I personally never get on tilt enough to be unable to play, there are people who do, and I respect that.
Also, this is one game in a set of 10 (+ possible triple rounds of tiebreaks). It doesn't break significantly the flow of the daily broadcast, there's no need for tickets to be returned, the TV crew did not get set up with nothing to be televised etc. That's why the comparison to a fully forfeited match in most other sports is unfair. The fair comparison would be, if enough players in the SC2 event refused to play altogether, so that no games could be played. This. ... and as totally not CEO of anything, I don't agree with OP points despite some logic and long arguments. I don't care for simulation matches. Let's pretend it matters? What for? Players goal is to win tournaments, team goal is to make profit. Corporate way of ''professionally growing eSports'' will work, of course leading to mass viewers, but much less human like personalities and passion - just work. Yeah, because in basically every other sport there is no passion anymore because the players are not allowed to drop games in the most obvious way. -.- SERIOUSLY... Do you guys even think before posting? I don't give a shit about the growth of ESports.. I was a happy Panda watching SC/BW but what Naniwa did was just wrong and got rightfully punished. In unrelevant games? There is not. Or u know some?
Ahm?
National football league.. Last round.
Team X has 20 points and no matter what a win/lose/draw will not change it's position.
Team Y has 10 points and no matter what a win/lose/draw will not change it's position.
Now they have to play against each other, what do you think will happen?
They will play. Probably not with their best possible team but the guys on the field will play and they will try to win.. For their fans, for themselves.. i don't care... All i care for is taht they will deliver a game..
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On December 16 2011 01:00 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:50 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 00:44 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 00:42 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 00:37 Velr wrote:Brilliant post  . I don't get why people don't see the problem. You don't purposefully lose a game, it's the worst thing a progamer can do. He can not give is all to it. Thats fine (just cannonrush/4 gate... who cares, play something that could win). He can play some weird shit. Thats fine (even Bratok and Stephano, while obviously wanting to lose did this and i was actually entertained by that offensive Hatchery/Spinecrawler-Rush vs BC-Rush game). He can not just send his first probes in the direction of his opponent and remove his hand from the keyboard/stop playing. You enjoy being fooled for your own amusement? IFirst and foremost I enjoy being amused. If you have to fool me to amuse me, then i support you to fool me. I don't expect the best game ever from two players being 0-3 in their group. BUT i expect a game. What Stephano and Bratok did was wrong too, but it was WAY better than what Naniwa did. Stephano/Bratok still delivered a game, Naniwa did not. Ok. Just to make sure we are on the same page. As long your amused you don't care if you've just been tricked or deceived into that joy... doesn't matter how or why, so long as your being amused? I guess ignorance really is bliss. edit: nice ninja edit Are you actually trying to be as daft as possible? I want to see the better player or my fav win when both playeres give their best. Now this is unliekly in a case where the game does not matter or losing actually gives a later advantage, as it was in Stephano vs Bratok or the recent Naniwa/Nestea. Everyone has to accept this but the fact is simple: The gameis broadcasted to thousands of viewers which expect to see a game, if possible a good or at least entertaining one, but most of all a game. What NO ONE wants to see is a professional losing in the fastest way possible because he does not feel like playing. It does not matter if you or others do not care about tournament games that do not matter anymore. There are people that care about Nestea vs Naniwa, GOM cared (and paid) for Nestea vs Naniwa and did not get what they have paid for, therefore they punished Naniwa. I agree 100% with the OP and i really don't see how anyone can disagree. Btw: There is one thing i see diffrent. I thinkt he punishment is pretty mild.
I disagree, a lot of the people who cared about the Nestea vs. Naniwa match stopped caring once the game lost all meaning, just as plenty of people wanted to be ignorantly fooled by a fake four gate from Naniwa.
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On December 16 2011 01:22 Pazuzu wrote:
good write up - but the major league sports example was rather out of context....NFL coaches pull star players when the game no longer matters; baseball plays minor league guys when the game doesn't matter etc. I agree that what Naniwa did was unprofessional and objectively I can see why GOM TV had to do what they did (as you say its a part of the business model etc) but the general public is faulting him for a mistake that is VERY overblown simply because of the controversy surrounding Nestea and Naniwa. The trash talk at MLG providence made this a 'relevant' match even though from the standpoint of the tournament it was irrelevant
This is a great point. While I agree with Alex and GOM that action was required, I do feel like he's gotten too bad a wrap for this just like the MLG incident.
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I think most people agree that Naniwa should have just 4-gated but honestly it's just a deception for fans who don't know any better. The solution for this issue is not playing matches that don't matter to anyone, or adding ranking points/prizemoney for every win in a tournament so all games matter.
Anyway, what he did isn't the biggest issue anymore imo. The biggest issue is that GOM have punished a player that didn't break any rule, they sentenced him without having broken any law and without a trial. GOM are also twisting words regarding Naniwa's code S spot, making it look like he never earned it in the first place.
Removing his code S spot for this, as a first time offender who hasn't broken any rule is rediculous. He should have received a warning or similar.
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I'll tell you what, no one is going to probe rush after this. At least no one on a professional team.
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On December 16 2011 01:36 Stringy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:00 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 00:50 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 00:44 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 00:42 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 00:37 Velr wrote:Brilliant post . I don't get why people don't see the problem. You don't purposefully lose a game, it's the worst thing a progamer can do. He can not give is all to it. Thats fine (just cannonrush/4 gate... who cares, play something that could win). He can play some weird shit. Thats fine (even Bratok and Stephano, while obviously wanting to lose did this and i was actually entertained by that offensive Hatchery/Spinecrawler-Rush vs BC-Rush game). He can not just send his first probes in the direction of his opponent and remove his hand from the keyboard/stop playing. You enjoy being fooled for your own amusement? IFirst and foremost I enjoy being amused. If you have to fool me to amuse me, then i support you to fool me. I don't expect the best game ever from two players being 0-3 in their group. BUT i expect a game. What Stephano and Bratok did was wrong too, but it was WAY better than what Naniwa did. Stephano/Bratok still delivered a game, Naniwa did not. Ok. Just to make sure we are on the same page. As long your amused you don't care if you've just been tricked or deceived into that joy... doesn't matter how or why, so long as your being amused? I guess ignorance really is bliss. edit: nice ninja edit Are you actually trying to be as daft as possible? I want to see the better player or my fav win when both playeres give their best. Now this is unliekly in a case where the game does not matter or losing actually gives a later advantage, as it was in Stephano vs Bratok or the recent Naniwa/Nestea. Everyone has to accept this but the fact is simple: The gameis broadcasted to thousands of viewers which expect to see a game, if possible a good or at least entertaining one, but most of all a game. What NO ONE wants to see is a professional losing in the fastest way possible because he does not feel like playing. It does not matter if you or others do not care about tournament games that do not matter anymore. There are people that care about Nestea vs Naniwa, GOM cared (and paid) for Nestea vs Naniwa and did not get what they have paid for, therefore they punished Naniwa. I agree 100% with the OP and i really don't see how anyone can disagree. Btw: There is one thing i see diffrent. I thinkt he punishment is pretty mild. I disagree, a lot of the people who cared about the Nestea vs. Naniwa match stopped caring once the game lost all meaning, just as plenty of people wanted to be ignorantly fooled by a fake four gate from Naniwa.
Yes and its totally fine/normal that you stopped caring. No one is arguing that. I did not care about the game myself but there are plenty of peopel that do care. Obviously GOM cared and i'm sure plenty of people still wanted to see a nice Naniwa vs Nestea match, no matter if it was dead serious or not.
All Naniwa needed to do was delivering "some" game.
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Thanks for the post Alex. That's what I've been trying to say (in a less elucidated manner) elsewhere on the forums. It's not a cultural problem. It's a problem with professionalism. Pro players are obligated to play out their matches for entertainment value. Obviously some don't agree, but getting paid comes with additional obligations to sponsors and fans (not just the ones who have the same disposition to meaningless games).
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On December 16 2011 01:28 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
The only difference is that NaNiwa is a player, not a team manager. For all we know, he might not give a rat's ass about the growth of eSports, or the sustainability of certain business models, and that's completely legitimate.
Whether his team has a policy that says players should or shouldn't throw away games, that's their business. Not the broadcasters', and not the viewers'.
Yup, especially considering players are only looking out for themselves. SC2 is a game based on individual achievement.
I've said this many times. Players like Greg and Johan are only looking to win. That's all they care about. As soon as they see they're in no position to win. They bow out. They are only thinking about themselves and don't make the connection to the fans who came out to see them play. They're too busy being pissed off at themselves.
To them winning comes first. Whatever people get out of it (the entertainment factor) would only be the icing on the cake.
That's why we see certain players use certain strategies that they know will work. Might not be as entertaining, but they just want to win the stupid game because that's the first thing on their mind.
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On December 15 2011 18:08 Adebisi wrote:
I agree with what you say everywhere more or less (could be nitpicky on certain details and analogies maybe I guess) but I think the one point you miss is that games that do not matter for the progression of the tournament/league should not be broadcast. Ultimately if you want to advocate preserving the integrity of GOMtv's product, the tournament structure must create only games that actually matter (or just be ready to not play/broadcast irrelevent games, simply following the precedent they set in up/down matches) otherwise this situation will rise again, it may not be as blatant as a probe rush (and given this shit storm, I'm shirt it won't), but it will happen again.
The rematch of Naniwa vs. Nestea should not be casted? The highly expected revenge? Well, feel insulted by me, thank you.
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On December 16 2011 01:35 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:29 Genestealer wrote:On December 16 2011 01:28 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 01:25 Genestealer wrote:On December 16 2011 01:12 figq wrote:
I would rather watch an honest forfeit, than a dishonest simulation, but to each their own.
In Idra's case vs Nerchio, as also in Naniwa's and others; tilt may play a more serious role than considered here. If an athlete is injured, he can't play and has to go on the bench. In esports psychology is as important. While I personally never get on tilt enough to be unable to play, there are people who do, and I respect that.
Also, this is one game in a set of 10 (+ possible triple rounds of tiebreaks). It doesn't break significantly the flow of the daily broadcast, there's no need for tickets to be returned, the TV crew did not get set up with nothing to be televised etc. That's why the comparison to a fully forfeited match in most other sports is unfair. The fair comparison would be, if enough players in the SC2 event refused to play altogether, so that no games could be played. This. ... and as totally not CEO of anything, I don't agree with OP points despite some logic and long arguments. I don't care for simulation matches. Let's pretend it matters? What for? Players goal is to win tournaments, team goal is to make profit. Corporate way of ''professionally growing eSports'' will work, of course leading to mass viewers, but much less human like personalities and passion - just work. Yeah, because in basically every other sport there is no passion anymore because the players are not allowed to drop games in the most obvious way. -.- SERIOUSLY... Do you guys even think before posting? I don't give a shit about the growth of ESports.. I was a happy Panda watching SC/BW but what Naniwa did was just wrong and got rightfully punished. In unrelevant games? There is not. Or u know some? Ahm? National football league.. Last round. Team X has 20 points and no matter what a win/lose/draw will not change it's position. Team Y has 10 points and no matter what a win/lose/draw will not change it's position. Now they have to play against each other, what do you think will happen? They will play. Probably not with their best possible team but the guys on the field will play and they will try to win.. For their fans, for themselves.. i don't care... All i care for is taht they will deliver a game..
What a terrible comparison.
Its more like Naniwa prepared a month for the Superbowl and gets shut out hard, then expecting him to play a show match directly after against previous years champion who has nothing to gain either. Something like that would never happen in the NFL. Its completely different and that is why these are terrible grounds to back any argument on.
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You say that the Idra vs White-Ra situation was different, because IPL was behind schedule already...but let me tell you...Idra vs White ra was one of the matches EVERYONE was excited about. They WOULD of broadcasted that match, and it would of drawn a huge crowd. Idra did excatly the same thing here. I was disappointed when I heard White Ra vs Idra was canceled, and I know many others were too.
This isn't the only time idras forfeitted a game vs an opponent either, MLG providence vs haypro? Yeah, it wasn't going to be broadcast...just played in the back, where hundreds of idra fans would of been standing, waiting for the game to be played.
Seems like a let down to me
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On December 16 2011 00:47 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The people who agree with GOMs decision obviously think that this was the right way to handle the "throwing game" issue. So this is a rule and a principle you agree should be used in a global event. I expect all of you to demand very harsh punishments for anyone who does anything similar in any global/international tournament after this. The main arguement seems to be the one of sportsmanship and professionalism. That means that whether the game is broadcasted or not shouldnt matter and the size of the tournamens is not important either. The principle you claim to stand for now you must defend after this, regardless of the player, team, nationality. Uhm, ok? And you are supporting everyone throwing their matches left and right because they don't feel like playing no matter the audience or anythign?...
Read the op about throwing matches. then read his response again. hope you understand his argument now.
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On December 16 2011 01:42 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:36 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 01:00 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 00:50 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 00:44 Velr wrote:On December 16 2011 00:42 Stringy wrote:On December 16 2011 00:37 Velr wrote:Brilliant post . I don't get why people don't see the problem. You don't purposefully lose a game, it's the worst thing a progamer can do. He can not give is all to it. Thats fine (just cannonrush/4 gate... who cares, play something that could win). He can play some weird shit. Thats fine (even Bratok and Stephano, while obviously wanting to lose did this and i was actually entertained by that offensive Hatchery/Spinecrawler-Rush vs BC-Rush game). He can not just send his first probes in the direction of his opponent and remove his hand from the keyboard/stop playing. You enjoy being fooled for your own amusement? IFirst and foremost I enjoy being amused. If you have to fool me to amuse me, then i support you to fool me. I don't expect the best game ever from two players being 0-3 in their group. BUT i expect a game. What Stephano and Bratok did was wrong too, but it was WAY better than what Naniwa did. Stephano/Bratok still delivered a game, Naniwa did not. Ok. Just to make sure we are on the same page. As long your amused you don't care if you've just been tricked or deceived into that joy... doesn't matter how or why, so long as your being amused? I guess ignorance really is bliss. edit: nice ninja edit Are you actually trying to be as daft as possible? I want to see the better player or my fav win when both playeres give their best. Now this is unliekly in a case where the game does not matter or losing actually gives a later advantage, as it was in Stephano vs Bratok or the recent Naniwa/Nestea. Everyone has to accept this but the fact is simple: The gameis broadcasted to thousands of viewers which expect to see a game, if possible a good or at least entertaining one, but most of all a game. What NO ONE wants to see is a professional losing in the fastest way possible because he does not feel like playing. It does not matter if you or others do not care about tournament games that do not matter anymore. There are people that care about Nestea vs Naniwa, GOM cared (and paid) for Nestea vs Naniwa and did not get what they have paid for, therefore they punished Naniwa. I agree 100% with the OP and i really don't see how anyone can disagree. Btw: There is one thing i see diffrent. I thinkt he punishment is pretty mild. I disagree, a lot of the people who cared about the Nestea vs. Naniwa match stopped caring once the game lost all meaning, just as plenty of people wanted to be ignorantly fooled by a fake four gate from Naniwa. Yes and its totally fine/normal that you stopped caring. No one is arguing that. I did not care about the game myself but there are plenty of peopel that do care. Obviously GOM cared and i'm sure plenty of people still wanted to see a nice Naniwa vs Nestea match, no matter if it was dead serious or not. All Naniwa needed to do was delivering "some" game.
Yeah I'm not saying Naniwa should have done what he did, just that for meaningless match I feel the punishment dished out by GOM for Naniwa not deceiving an ignorant group of people was too harsh, there are plenty of people who paid and wanted to see Naniwa in Code S... :/
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EPT
