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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
Barcrafts are another manifestation of this identity crisis. What could be more mainstream than drinking beer and watching "the game" with other young men in the commons? Beer is great, I love beer, but the game sucks, so stop pretending that you're having a good time or that it validates your lifestyle. This is the best version of "if it's not in BW, it's bad" I ever seen. | ||
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gosuMalicE
Canada676 Posts
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:01 Primadog wrote: This is the most version of "it's no in BW, therefore it's bad" I ever seen. ^ agree, i see barcrafts as more of a thing to find the poeple who also enjoy sc2 and share your love of the game in a social atmosphere and to show people not involved in eSports that it isnt a buncha "nerds" sitting in their moms basement playing games by themselves. We regular people who like watching eSports. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
I don't like how alienating the OP is to SC2 fans because it really is blog ladder suicide and doesn't help his cause of convincing anyone of anything (if that is indeed his cause, maybe this is just catharsis), but he writes pretty well and if you read the content there is food for thought in there. edit: more posts were made above me while responding to primadog... Well this is exactly it. If you think that you're not a nerd or whatever just because you go to a bar and drink, then this is really an insecurity because you are afraid of being seen as someone who doesn't go to bars and is therefore not in line with a perceived social norm (and in reality no one gives a shit if you go to bars or not—and people will still think you're a social failure if you go to a bar and still say dumb things). | ||
Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:09 Chef wrote: I think his point (however elusive it may be) with that is that barcrafts shouldn't validate a game, the game itself needs to be worthy. So if someone thinks 'well this game must be good because there's so many barcrafts for it' he is saying that is a poor reason to think the game is good, rather it's an excuse to drink and hang out with people. Then that combines with a certain distaste for people who idealise this lifestyle (going to bars) as a part of their identity rather than enjoying it for it's own sake (like the person who goes to parties in high school because parties are parties and they help you fit in). This is what he means by the word 'identity crisis,' I mean. Seeking social acceptance rather than being secure about your hobbies. I don't like how alienating the OP is to SC2 fans because it really is blog ladder suicide and doesn't help his cause of convincing anyone of anything (if that is indeed his cause, maybe this is just catharsis), but he writes pretty well and if you read the content there is food for thought in there. I think that's a large spin on what he said to say the least. I think he was more saying "SC2 is garbage." | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:09 Chef wrote: I think his point (however elusive it may be) with that is that barcrafts shouldn't validate a game, the game itself needs to be worthy. So if someone thinks 'well this game must be good because there's so many barcrafts for it' he is saying that is a poor reason to think the game is good, rather it's an excuse to drink and hang out with people. Then that combines with a certain distaste for people who idealise this lifestyle (going to bars) as a part of their identity rather than enjoying it for it's own sake (like the person who goes to parties in high school because parties are parties and they help you fit in). This is what he means by the word 'identity crisis,' I mean. Seeking social acceptance rather than being secure about your hobbies. I don't like how alienating the OP is to SC2 fans because it really is blog ladder suicide and doesn't help his cause of convincing anyone of anything (if that is indeed his cause, maybe this is just catharsis), but he writes pretty well and if you read the content there is food for thought in there. edit: more posts were made above me while responding to primadog... Well this is exactly it. If you think that you're not a nerd or whatever just because you go to a bar and drink, then this is really an insecurity because you are afraid of being seen as someone who doesn't go to bars and is therefore not in line with a perceived social norm (and in reality no one gives a shit if you go to bars or not). ^ there is food for thought, but all of his statements of fact are simply disrespectful or down right insulting to the sports mentioned and the people who watch them/play them, i love soccer and american football both very different sports and cant be compared and then to bring hockey into the issue and poke at its violence, then only casually in passsing mention MMA as a highly paid for pay per view event shows to me that ingesting his food for thought might actually slow down my brain so ill pass. you wanna hate on somehting for violence and not a sport, look up rio all stars worst MMA league ever bare knuckle, half circle with wall to bash people against ring, many of the fighters are just regular guys off the streeet, super low paying. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:09 Chef wrote: I think his point (however elusive it may be) with that is that barcrafts shouldn't validate a game, the game itself needs to be worthy. So if someone thinks 'well this game must be good because there's so many barcrafts for it' he is saying that is a poor reason to think the game is good, rather it's an excuse to drink and hang out with people. Then that combines with a certain distaste for people who idealise this lifestyle (going to bars) as a part of their identity rather than enjoying it for it's own sake (like the person who goes to parties in high school because parties are parties and they help you fit in). This is what he means by the word 'identity crisis,' I mean. Seeking social acceptance rather than being secure about your hobbies. I don't like how alienating the OP is to SC2 fans because it really is blog ladder suicide and doesn't help his cause of convincing anyone of anything (if that is indeed his cause, maybe this is just catharsis), but he writes pretty well and if you read the content there is food for thought in there. edit: more posts were made above me while responding to primadog... Well this is exactly it. If you think that you're not a nerd or whatever just because you go to a bar and drink, then this is really an insecurity because you are afraid of being seen as someone who doesn't go to bars and is therefore not in line with a perceived social norm (and in reality no one gives a shit if you go to bars or not—and people will still think you're a social failure if you go to a bar and still say dumb things). SC2, BW, whatever. The true eSports is the blog ladder anyways. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:17 Chef wrote: You're right, he definitely made it clear he doesn't like SC2, it's not an unbiased argument. But there are still points that you could legitimately counter if you wanted to, like this thing about barcraft being more about self-validation than the game. Or you could take that as an initial counter that you agree with, but bring up a reason that SC2 is good for the game itself which doesn't rely on social events as proof. Even the "self-validation" argument doesn't make sense. I went to barcraft, many of the TL "old guard" went to barcrafts. We don't go out of some whimpsical belief that being there will make SC2 mainstream (or a real eSports, whatever the hell that means), we went because it's fun. Whatever validation that arised from ten thousand nerds going to barcraft during MLG Providence, is a side effect, not the purpose. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
People go to barcraft because passion is better shared. It's a socializing experience over a common interest. What peer pressure is there when before BarCraft, the local fans never actually talk to each other? | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
The problem is you contradict yourself by introducing chess. Chess has no immediate WOW factor - no non-physical sport does. Uninitiated people cannot immediately grasp the level of skill required to play. Very few people care to watch it. But, regardless of niche, it's still a sport... right? Unfortunately for your argument, SC2 is exactly the same. Its audience is limited mostly to those who play, it isn't very accessible to the uninitiated and there's no immediate WOW factor. I disagree with your conclusion that SC2 isn't, or can't be, a sport. Dreamhack had around 100,000 viewers at different points in the weekend. Whether or not those viewers were all 'introverts with addiction problems' is irrelevant. I could stereotype a lot of specific audiences into just as offensive categories but it doesn't mean anything. Those people still enjoy what they're watching for whatever reason it may be. I get where your hatred is coming from though, and I feel the same way about a lot of the things you write, but redefining what a sport is in order to attack SC2 isn't a particularly clever way of going about things, especially with obvious contradictions within your own post. Just enjoy whatever aspect of the game it is you enjoy and ignore the rest of it. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Sensationalist article at best I feel. | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:32 Chef wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me. Barcraft isn't proof SC2 is bad or that the people who go to barcrafts are hopeless nerds. It just also can't be proof that it's good. BW players like to make arguments like 'high skill gap, player personality comes out through their game play, great units, high variability, still evolving etc' to say why BW is a great game. You can contest that SC2 also carries these components, and maybe even say it does so to a greater degree, but that is where the argument should be if there is to be any. What you hear more often though is about how big sc2 is as the proof why it is good... Which is a sort of poor argument. SC2 is huge, BW is dying! I think we've even seen that said a couple times this thread lol. ^ i dunno i think that perhaps barcrafts can be a measure of sc2's success, in that there is enough of an enjoyment of eSports that people are willing to shell out bucks to have an enjoyable experience while watching it, and that bars are willing to risk showing it while it is still so niche. look at international numbers for sc2 streams on own3d.tv and twitch.tv and you'll see the difference sc2 is one of the most watched games and when watching other games if you talk in chat almost everybody who watches has a passing knowledge if not a true sc2 fan themselves things like this speak for themselves that eSports isnt dead dying or will be. In response to his origonal post, do you actually get to see financial statements for all pro-gamers? do you actually have the data to show its slave labour that its not benefitting th eplayers in any way? | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:32 Chef wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me. Barcraft isn't proof SC2 is bad or that the people who go to barcrafts are hopeless nerds. It just also can't be proof that it's good. BW players like to make arguments like 'high skill gap, player personality comes out through their game play, great units, high variability, still evolving etc' to say why BW is a great game. You can contest that SC2 also carries these components, and maybe even say it does so to a greater degree, but that is where the argument should be if there is to be any. What you hear more often though is about how big sc2 is as the proof why it is good... Which is a sort of poor argument. SC2 is huge, BW is dying! I think we've even seen that said a couple times this thread lol. I agree, BarCraft probably could had risen for any competitive game, be it BW or SC2 or SF or HoN. Of course, we can probably have a case on why it focused on SC2, but that's another topic. I just want to tackle how absurd that the OP wrote so stop pretending that you're having a good time or that it validates your lifestyle which has no merit. Besides this specific line of thought, the rest of the topic is the same-old same-old. Arguments debated to death ever since SC2 was announced. The second renaissance for BW will not come from the death of SC2. Whenever I see a thread about how "SC2 fans aren't watching a real game," the only answer for it is Yes, there's a lot of fans for SC2, but you may not like it. Dont' be a dick about it. You're giving BW fans a bad name (to the OP). | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
A huge difference between the cultural development (note: I don't mean game development) of SC2 from BW is that our community is self-aware. SC2 has fans who know of the stakes at hand, and want to use the knowledge gleaned from the history of BW in SK to grow the scene internationally. This apparently seems artificial to you, but who wouldn't use the knowledge they have gleaned to share their passion with others? Time will tell if SC2 has staying power in the hearts of its fans, but you have no grounds to claim that they must now be deceiving themselves, pretending to enjoy SC2 out of hope that 'eSports' can become mainstream. You just look like you have a superiority complex. Your 'American football' vs. 'futbol' argument is bullshit. You could have just left the 'Hand-egg' image macro in place of your whole paragraph and hardly lost content. You clearly don't understand why people enjoy it, and have made up a stupid reason for why people watch it. I could just as well say that futbol is just an excuse for a crowd to ogle sweaty athletic/attractive men for an hour and a half. I personally find futbol a bit dull, but recognize from conversations I've heard and read that there must be some level of strategy and depth to it even if I haven't experienced enough of the sport to understand it. I think this blog wouldn't have been made if you were willing to think the same way. | ||
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