• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 19:45
CET 01:45
KST 09:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA13
StarCraft 2
General
SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation [Game] Osu!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1826 users

eSports is hurting eSports - Page 11

Blogs > mmp
Post a Reply
Prev 1 9 10 11 All
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
December 05 2011 09:09 GMT
#201
5/5 from me , I really like the idea that you give broodwar as a legitimate sport and sc2 as something a "grandma would be playing to pass time " . Which of course as a broodwar fan I am happy about it , although people on the other side who plays the same game would not be so happy about it .....
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
December 05 2011 09:27 GMT
#202
I disagree with almost the entire article, although I'm still pretty sympathetic to the BW > SC2 argument. American football is actually the one of the most strategically deep team sports in the world, just read a few articles on http://www.smartfootball.com to see what I mean. Second of all, soccer IS shown on ESPN with no commercial breaks, so there's no reason ESPN can't show long games. But the most important thing is that for thousands of people worldwide, eSports is fun. It's a new thing beyond the game for people to enjoy, and Barcrafts are simply a way to get together and enjoy it. No one's forcing it to be mainstream, people are just getting together and doing what they like.
Ktk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)753 Posts
December 05 2011 10:45 GMT
#203
Starcraft is not fun to play for most people, Starcraft is not fun to watch for most people.

TL is the 1%
LunaSea
Profile Joined October 2011
Luxembourg369 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 11:45:06
December 05 2011 11:42 GMT
#204
Are "great games" in your mind only vintage / old graphics ? Because if it is your opinion is really flawed.

If you don't follow the natural evolution of games you won't ever get "eSport". How many Donky Kong MLG's / OSL's did you watched in the last 10-20 years ?

On December 05 2011 19:45 Ktk wrote:
Starcraft is not fun to play for most people, Starcraft is not fun to watch for most people.

TL is the 1%


Omg, there are so dumb people sometimes...
"Your f*cking wrong, but I respect your opinion" --Day[9]
dakalro
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania525 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 12:45:25
December 05 2011 12:42 GMT
#205
Such a waste of bits and effort. Sorry, it's just YOU that knows it's inferior to Broodwar. It's just YOU that knows it's boring to watch. Don't state YOUR opinions as fact, they're not.

"Thriving Broodward community" - really, I would think that outside of Korea SC2 following is 10x the size of what Broodwar had on SC2 launch. I'm sorry to say but it's not quality of the community that makes a sport, it's quantity, football is a great example of that. Out of my current WoW guild I'm the only guy that has ever played BW yet 5-6 people still play SC2. Of course they're all kids barely over 20 but still.

What version is the expansion Starcraft Broodwar on now?
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
December 05 2011 15:05 GMT
#206
Mmm...nothing like the smell of napalm rampant polarization in the morning.
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
December 05 2011 16:26 GMT
#207
On December 05 2011 21:42 dakalro wrote:
Such a waste of bits and effort. Sorry, it's just YOU that knows it's inferior to Broodwar. It's just YOU that knows it's boring to watch. Don't state YOUR opinions as fact, they're not.

"Thriving Broodward community" - really, I would think that outside of Korea SC2 following is 10x the size of what Broodwar had on SC2 launch. I'm sorry to say but it's not quality of the community that makes a sport, it's quantity, football is a great example of that. Out of my current WoW guild I'm the only guy that has ever played BW yet 5-6 people still play SC2. Of course they're all kids barely over 20 but still.

What version is the expansion Starcraft Broodwar on now?


2.156 broodwar you know protoss scouts can shoot lasers and nuclear at the same time and only cost 150 mineral and 150 gas , I am enjoying broodwar now because blizzard is currently nerfing and patching broodwar at the same time . So much love from dustin bowder indeed.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
NeonGenesis
Profile Joined September 2005
Norway260 Posts
December 05 2011 16:35 GMT
#208
One big troll blog.

I'll quote Tasteless on this one: "I hate it when people have wrong opinions!"

You say you think SC2 is boring, and then interpret that as meaning that everybody actually feels that SC2 is boring, and are only deluding themselves?

Your entire post does not make sense outside the context of trolling, sir.
It's all good. I just want rainbows, unicorns and machine guns. -Sundance DiGiovanni
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 16:39:55
December 05 2011 16:36 GMT
#209
Mixed feelings about it... When I read it quickly (meaning I just skim across the parts that ridicule SC2 and other "sports"), it makes perfect sense. When I read it slowly, I just shake my head cause I know that a flamewar (albeit, a small one) is bound to start between fans of BW and SC2.

I'll just state the part I like the most though:

LAN.

Goddamnit Blizzard. You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the perception that video games were a waste of time, not join the other *coughEAcough* corporations who sacrifice quality for simplicity! You were to bring balance to the nerds, not leave them disconnected!

EDIT: And just because I used a quote from a horrible movie doesn't mean I condone watching it. Star Wars ended 30 years ago.
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Sgonzo
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada202 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 23:57:34
December 05 2011 23:36 GMT
#210
On December 01 2011 08:09 mmp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2011 07:16 BUfels wrote:
On December 01 2011 07:14 mmp wrote:
On December 01 2011 07:10 BUfels wrote:
Opinions disguised as facts with convincing writing.

Actually, they're opinions disguised as opinions with extremely hasty writing, but thank you for the benefit of the doubt.

If that was all you could rebutt in my entire post, then you don't believe in what you wrote.

How can I rebutt what is not false? Your determination to argue on a factual basis makes strong-arming my argument very difficult!

Unfortunately I think you're focusing on all of the chips and cracks of what I wrote and not looking at the broader sculpture. You don't have to agree with my disparaging portrayal of one sport over another to hold your own biases on the same subject and arrive at your own criteria for discriminating the real sports from the phony.

Show nested quote +

This is very annoying. How can you talk on everybody's behalf? The amount of people watching live events continues to skyrocket. Hundreds of threads on esports appear daily on screddit and TL alone. What twisted world do you live in where the community's general consensus is that the game is boring to watch? Here is an example of an opinion disguised as a fact.

No, sports do NOT come with expansion packs. Or, they didn't in the past. That's because a video game, to date, has not been classified a sport. You know that what prevents an expansion pack from being classified as a sport is NOT the fact that is is an expansion, but because it is a videogame. Convincing writing, but you're full of bullshit.

So we agree, video games are not sports -- unless you're partial to the belief that there is something special about SC2. I feel it too... it's called advertisement. Your tastes and preferences are warped to fit the market, and so we must be living in revolutionary times where anything is possible and your mother and sister will learn Starcraft and there will be stadiums full of cheering fans for... Idra??? (kill me now)

Show nested quote +

What you are doing is mentioning aspects of SC2 and then somehow coming to the conclusion that they are negative, that they prove it can never be a sport. What you are missing is the middleground. Not only do you not have proof to back this up, you don't even have a reason, proof or no proof. "In football, the goalkeeper can use his hands. Thus, it is not a sport". Illogical.

This isn't algebra. It's a hypothesis. Agree with it or not, the preface introduces the body material -- it does need to validate it. That's for you to think about.


Show nested quote +


Your non-nerdy friends...

Oh look, more opinions disguised as facts. I have introduced 4 friends into Starcraft who have actually bought the game, and watched TSL3 with about 8 on my PC back in Summer.

Your friends are nerds (this isn't a bad thing).

Show nested quote +

Barcrafts are another manifestation of this identity crisis. What could be more mainstream than drinking beer and watching "the game" with other young men in the commons? Beer is great, I love beer, but the game sucks, so stop pretending that you're having a good time or that it validates your lifestyle. You're not having a good time, and you're still a nerd. You're a lonely yuppie (or worse, underage!) with nerdy hobbies desperately seeking acceptance inside an alienating society. The bartender doesn't give a fuck what the customers want to watch as long as the hockey/baseball/basketball game is not on and no one else complains. You can attend bar meetups on almost any hobby group if you look hard enough, but your willingness to spend money to be with people just like you is no more of an indicator that eSports is growing than weekend book clubs among housewives are an indicator that competitive literary leagues are on the rise.

Now it's just rambling nonsensical bullshit.

Yes, definitely rambling. Quite shitty.

Show nested quote +
You go to Barcraft, you're enjoying yourself? NO YOU'RE NOT STUPID NERD YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED.

I never said you weren't allowed (who am I to prevent you?). I just said you were going to a bar for all the wrong reasons, reasons we nerds do not like to tell ourselves when we engage in social nerddom. In a nutshell, you're trying to shape the world around your private interests, rather than embracing the world as it is.

Show nested quote +

Foreigners need to stop wishing for South Korea to come to their neighborhood; you cannot force culture. SC2 is an entertainment platform developed by Blizzard, delivered by the Internet streaming sites, promoted by high-end computer hardware manufacturers (i.e. shit you don't need), energy drinks, & other providers of "gamer gear," and ultimately consumed by you, the lonely PC gamer of the Western world who wants a sense of community in his hobbies. The benefactors of this niche market don't care about social recognition, they just want your money. If you advertise it to your friends, that makes "eSports" more money.

So much of what you said there applies to football. Sponsors advertising stupid shit, people looking for a sense of community in their hobbies, "The Man" wanting your money. How do any of these invalidate the concept of SC2 being a sport?

Because SC2 only exists to promote these things, much like the NFL. Without big sponsorship SC2 would be deader than Samir Duran, just a shiny walking corpse that no one takes seriously for its competitive value. The significance attached to skill in SC2 is completely artificial.

Show nested quote +

So when iNcontroL writes that he wants 2012 to be an even bigger year for eSports, he should probably just be satisfied that he's got a home, friends, and a semi-stable career playing a mediocre computer game with some gore and neat explosions. EG is doing better than most. Prize pools may increase under better sponsorship, but the payout is still chancey and not going to improve the quality of life of players. Under the facade of "dedication to the game," players are required to work long hours for little pay (a tiny bunkbed & Ramen noodles is not pay, it's slave wages, or the college experience without the education) and sacrificing the best years of their lives for what... the entertainment of some netizens? A slim chance at fame and riches?

People work hard to get famous. People work hard to get anywhere they want to. The most famous players make big money, the lower players have to endure hard years to get there. You think this doesn't apply to other sports?

NCAA, poker, whatever... most never make it. The smart ones know when to walk away and revert to plan B. No one can be successful without hard work, but you need to be honest with yourself about what your goals are and why they're important to you. Most are in it for the money, and few will win big, so what does that make the rest? I think "dedicated" is too kind.

Show nested quote +

Sometimes I worry that the competitive Starcraft scene is too concerned with the image of "eSports," and not discriminating enough of the game within the sport. Sometimes I think that there are too many events & wanna-be events, too many casters & wanna-be casters, too many progamers & wanna-be progamers. All too often the quality is low, which is a shame when the people that put things together are taking personal risks or volunteering their time. I hope it's worth it for the people who have a lot invested. I hope it's still fun for the players, because it's not going to get any better than this. This is the complete and fulfilled dream of eSports, and the only thing hurting eSports now is its own self-obsession.

No, you don't. You want it to fail. You have created these opinions for which flawed is too much of an understatement to use because you WANT controversial opinions. You don't WANT to follow what the crowd are following. If it fails, you'll be laughing, "haha! I wasn't like the rest, I predicted this!".
That is your motivation. You are not worried. Anybody remotely worried would have obliterated those pathetic arguments in their own head.

That is a false characterization (I'm more of the "mwahaha" evil laugher). No I am genuinely concerned about all of those talented "pros" who may have stable gigs for now, but they're not going to win a major tournament any time soon, some of them do not look happy where they are (which is sad considering they're playing a game for a living), and their youthful talents are going to waste chasing an artificial dream. At best, they can entertain us with exciting games, but (as I have already laid out) the game itself is not conducive to this task.



Blizzard has already said Samir Duran isn't dead ^ fail
edit: /sarcasm
When Keepin It Real Goes Wrong
Prev 1 9 10 11 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
20:00
RO16 TieBreaker - Group A
TerrOr vs Aeternum
HBO vs Kyrie
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 259
SpeCial 194
NeuroSwarm 131
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2752
NaDa 59
Noble 13
ivOry 4
Dota 2
PGG 283
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox365
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor193
Other Games
Grubby5635
summit1g3879
FrodaN2722
Trikslyr54
RotterdaM52
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1025
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 82
• musti20045 34
• HeavenSC 18
• davetesta15
• Airneanach6
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21764
• Ler99
Other Games
• Scarra1302
• imaqtpie1295
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
6h 45m
Classic vs SHIN
Maru vs TBD
herO vs TBD
Wardi Open
13h 15m
IPSL
19h 15m
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
BSL 21
19h 15m
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
OSC
22h 15m
OSC
1d 8h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 16h
OSC
1d 22h
Wardi Open
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
3 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LAN Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-21
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.