EPTThen I beg the question: "Does single-player alone justify SC2 taking the name Starcraft?"
eSports is hurting eSports - Page 6
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
Then I beg the question: "Does single-player alone justify SC2 taking the name Starcraft?" | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:10 jpak wrote: To me, the only things common between BW and SC2 are the name "Starcraft" and the universe in which the single-player campaigns unfold. This forum is one of the very few places you could say this and have a chance for people to take you seriously. This is a bullshit statement aimed at cheaply belittling SC2 without instead of going through the subtleties of execution of the RTS genre that might make you prefer resulting multiplayer experience in BW over SC2. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
It doesn't matter. | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:10 jpak wrote: To me, the only things common between BW and SC2 are the name "Starcraft" and the universe in which the single-player campaigns unfold. Multiplayer-wise, they are totally different. Then I beg the question: "Does single-player alone justify SC2 taking the name Starcraft?" Please name some RTS games that are closer to Brood War than SC2. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:10 Swede wrote: Sure. Quote one sentence from my post and then infer that I am saying 'SC2 is a sport because 100,000 viewers watched'... I was using your post to illustrate an earlier point I'd just made. Sorry if you feel that was unfair treatment of your other ideas. edit: To clarify, my point which was that when people want to legitimize SC2 they often turn to numbers like this. People did that in BW too, saying all the time how big it is in Korea etc. It's sort of the easiest way to get grandma's approval, but it's not really useful information for a discussion about why SC2 is legitimate/good/etc. I contend if you were not trying to legitimize SC2 with that number, I have no idea why you brought it up. | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
^ dude your the one who told me ive never seen a game of BW in my life, i'm telling you that statement is wrong, and it was pretty ignorant for you to have said that in the first place | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:06 mmp wrote: Some clarifications. If you have a post count higher than 10, you are a "hopeless nerd" in my book. If you have a post count higher than 100, you are an introvert. If you have a post count higher than 1000, you are an addict. I count myself as one of those. As much as I am willing to embrace my nerdliness, there is a difference between saying to a random stranger on the street: "Hello, my name is ____. I devote the majority of my hobby time on competitive ____, which has been studied and refined for many years." and "Hello, my name is ____. I devote the majority of my hobby time on competitive ____, which was released last year." Bonus points if you can say the latter statement with a straight face. Bonus points if you call yourself a "professional" at a game that's just over a year old. Bonus points if you think you're somehow healthier than a WoW addict. Bonus points if you resent the comparison. When I was in middle school, I used to go to Magic: the Gathering tournaments at my nearby card/game store. I really liked playing the game with friends, I had a lot of fun building creative decks -- and then I'd go to these tournaments where I'd meet kids who were assholes, had bought-out decks with all the rares, and they'd win and I'd lose and it was no fun. The only way to play a good game is draft, imo. I don't hate MtG, I think it's made a lot of bad decisions post-5th edition, but somewhere in there is a redeemable game that's been zombified under the notion of constant cycles so that WotC can keep printing shiny cards to little boys (and men) who like the fantasy elements. MtG will keep releasing repetitive cycles with shitty concepts long after they "got it right" just as Blizzard will keep selling computer games as long as we keep buying them. Why do we buy games if they're no good? We buy most games to be entertained, puzzled, and possessed by the story, and we eventually throw them away, perhaps to play again layer. We like novelty. But SC2 was different. It had to live up to Broodwar, the premier competitive RTS, analyzed by Koreans and converted into an art form. My point is that if you have any stake in SC2: career, emotional, whatever... just try to put things in perspective and enjoy it for its own sake. SC2 has only been around for a year. NOBODY knows the future of the game. When StarCraft 1 came out for a year, before Brood War, NOBODY knows what would happen to it either. If this is 5 years from now and SC2 has died, then you can bump this and tell everybody "I told you so". You simply don't have the evidence to say what you are saying. Brood War became what it became partly on the merits of the game, but also partly on the passion of the players and fans who wish to keep it alive. It's the exact same fucking thing for SC2 except the game is "slightly worse" than Brood War, however much you can justify that. And then you go to bash football and NASCAR when it's clear you don't know anything about these sports either, you're just bashing them because YOU see no merits in the sports. That doesn't help your argument. All in all, whatever legitimate point you have, you basically buried it underneath a lot of things that are not just biased, but flat out wrong. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
You can fit thousands of people in a stadium. Renting out an auditorium in Atlantic City doesn't make you legit. Millions tune in to every day to watch short-lived mini-series that I've never heard of and that will be discarded by network executives for the next hot thing a month later. How does Starcraft compete with human drama, human sex, & human violence? It doesn't, because normal people (not like you and me) don't have brains that light up when animated monsters explode. | ||
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accordion
Canada58 Posts
Please name some RTS games that are closer to Brood War than SC2. Strifeshadow | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:18 mmp wrote: 100k viewers isn't bad, but that's worldwide. And you're not missing too many people, anyone who wants to watch is watching. You can fit thousands of people in a stadium. Renting out an auditorium in Atlantic City doesn't make you legit. Millions tune in to every day to watch short-lived mini-series that I've never heard of and that will be discarded by network executives for the next hot thing a month later. How does Starcraft compete with human drama, human sex, & human violence? It doesn't, because normal people (not like you and me) don't have brains that light up when animated monsters explode. ^ agreed with your final point.... and about the 100k taht is at one time numbers overall there was probly 10-15x that number who tuned in to watch | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:18 mmp wrote: 100k viewers isn't bad, but that's worldwide. And you're not missing too many people, anyone who wants to watch is watching. You can fit thousands of people in a stadium. Renting out an auditorium in Atlantic City doesn't make you legit. Millions tune in to every day to watch short-lived mini-series that I've never heard of and that will be discarded by network executives for the next hot thing a month later. How does Starcraft compete with human drama, human sex, & human violence? It doesn't, because normal people (not like you and me) don't have brains that light up when animated monsters explode. I can believe that there are many people who would hold this opinion, personally I can't see how you can hold it consistently in a way that includes SC2 and excludes BW. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:06 mmp wrote: When I was in middle school, I used to go to Magic: the Gathering tournaments at my nearby card/game store. I really liked playing the game with friends, I had a lot of fun building creative decks -- and then I'd go to these tournaments where I'd meet kids who were assholes, had bought-out decks with all the rares, and they'd win and I'd lose and it was no fun. The only way to play a good game is draft, imo. I don't hate MtG, I think it's made a lot of bad decisions post-5th edition, but somewhere in there is a redeemable game that's been zombified under the notion of constant cycles so that WotC can keep printing shiny cards to little boys (and men) who like the fantasy elements. MtG will keep releasing repetitive cycles with shitty concepts long after they "got it right" just as Blizzard will keep selling computer games as long as we keep buying them. The first part of this paragraph has nothing to do with the second. This is the problem of your OP in microcosm. | ||
Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:16 Sgonzo wrote: ^ dude your the one who told me ive never seen a game of BW in my life, i'm telling you that statement is wrong, and it was pretty ignorant for you to have said that in the first place I said you don't know enough about the game. As in you never studied it or played it at a high level. Playing since "you believe you were in grade 5 or something" doesn't disprove that. | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:26 Chill wrote: I said you don't know enough about the game. As in you never studied it or played it at a high level. Playing since "you believe you were in grade 5 or something" doesn't disprove that. ^ i guess i shoulda said ive been playign since it came out and started watching BW after the slump, when it got super popular again, and its not as fast paced as sc2 | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:25 bonifaceviii wrote: The first part of this paragraph has nothing to do with the second. This is the problem of your OP in microcosm. What don't you understand about meandering? Convoluted? Tortuous? Roundabout? As a gamer, you are attracted to the surface elements that are most appealing to you, but as time goes on you realize that what you genuinely enjoyed is just part of a cyclical marketing scheme. We were genuinely drawn in to the rich game that was Broodwar (post patches, post Korean deconstruction). But now that it's gone, phased out, and we're stuck with an inferior sequel that we asked for because we dared to dream that Broodwar could be remade into something young and fresh. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:15 Chef wrote: I was using your post to illustrate an earlier point I'd just made. Sorry if you feel that was unfair treatment of your other ideas. edit: To clarify, my point which was that when people want to legitimize SC2 they often turn to numbers like this. People did that in BW too, saying all the time how big it is in Korea etc. It's sort of the easiest way to get grandma's approval, but it's not really useful information for a discussion about why SC2 is legitimate/good/etc. I contend if you were not trying to legitimize SC2 with that number, I have no idea why you brought it up. Of course you have no idea why I brought it up. You didn't read my entire post and you didn't read it as a reply to the OP, which is what it was. If you HAD read the entirety of my post in context, ie as a reply to the OP then it would have made perfect sense. He spoke about other sports drawing money because they have an audience, and later that SC2's audience basically doesn't count because they're all introverts with addiction problems. I posted that number to demonstrate that firstly SC2 does have an audience, and then the rest of that paragraph (ie the part you didn't read) was on the irrelevance of who that audience is. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
Have you played Frisbee Golf (Disc Golf).. that's surely a sport and at one point it was just considered this college game that old and new hippies played. I use this sport a lot when talking about esports, because of how they changed the 'perception' of it. SC2, I agree, unless you really understand the game, is difficult to watch.. .but defining a sport by 'watchability' is just asinine. NASCAR is 'watchable' and yet you mention it as not a true sport. Argue that with me and millions of people on television and over 100k live at the event will disagree with you. The idea of esports as a 'sport' is not, and should not be, about the physical (or lack there of) nature of the game..instead it should be about the 'competition'. A sport is merely a competition. I have had this arguement before with others.. but I believe ANY game can be an esport... especially when money is pumped into it. Any game (ie Yahoo Pool, Angry Birds and even Farmville) can be considered an esport with a proper structure, format and competitive aspect in place. Lucky for our community.. we do have our limits and those types of games do not warrant that label for many of us. However... with that being said.. look at HaxBall.  Anyway... its a well written piece and you are entitled to your opinion.. I for one appreciate it and I think it lends to mostly healthy conversation. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
YEAHH! So excited someone else has heard of this. I played the beta for a while, it was super fun. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:37 mmp wrote: What don't you understand about meandering? Convoluted? Tortuous? Roundabout? As a gamer, you are attracted to the surface elements that are most appealing to you, but as time goes on you realize that what you genuinely enjoyed is just part of a cyclical marketing scheme. We were genuinely drawn in to the rich game that was Broodwar (post patches, post Korean deconstruction). But now that it's gone, phased out, and we're stuck with an inferior sequel that we asked for because we dared to dream that Broodwar could be remade into something young and fresh. Hey bro, you're not stuck with anything. You can still watch Broodwar. I hear they've got this sweet Proleague thing going on, you should check it out. | ||
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