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eSports is hurting eSports - Page 7
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moge
United States124 Posts
http://xkcd.com/386/ WP/GG | ||
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FlyingDJ
Germany153 Posts
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:14 blackone wrote: It's pretty sad when you have to have to write such a long text just to make sure you're better than the masses. You even hate American Football just because everyone else like it. If you would be living in Europe, you'd hate soccer. Please name some RTS games that are closer to Brood War than SC2. Other RTS games don't matter in this discussion because I am looking strictly at the two games that share the name "Starcraft." Whether the other games are closer to Brood War or not is therefore irrelevant. So now, I ask again: Does SC2 justify itself in taking the name "Starcraft" just because both have Kerrigan, Raynor, and Mengsk? Just because they share some units and spells? | ||
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BUfels
Ireland26 Posts
On December 01 2011 01:45 mmp wrote: I would argue that SC2 is not an eSport (it's merely an eGame), but this shouldn't be controversial. We know it's inferior to Broodwar. We know it's boring to watch. We know if Blizzard released SC3 tomorrow we'd forget SC2 like a bad dream. Most of all, a real sport does not have a steering committee to shuffle the rules of the game on a monthly basis. Sports do not release expansion packs. Sports do not come with "intellectual property" restrictions and license agreements dictating how you may play and whom you may play with. Sports do not tolerate lag. This is very annoying. How can you talk on everybody's behalf? The amount of people watching live events continues to skyrocket. Hundreds of threads on esports appear daily on screddit and TL alone. What twisted world do you live in where the community's general consensus is that the game is boring to watch? Here is an example of an opinion disguised as a fact. No, sports do NOT come with expansion packs. Or, they didn't in the past. That's because a video game, to date, has not been classified a sport. You know that what prevents an expansion pack from being classified as a sport is NOT the fact that is is an expansion, but because it is a videogame. Convincing writing, but you're full of bullshit. A sport also lives on its own, by the interest and involvement of players. To this end, it must either be fun or inspire people to become better players in the absence of external encouragement. Take chess. You can play online ladders against some of the best in the world, or you can enjoy a game in your home on your own time, and when it's over it's over -- no post-game commentary or highlights necessary. Chess has survived hundreds of years without television or Internet promotion. Broodwar was ready for Korean prime time because an entire generation of kids was already in love with the game. When SC2 was announced, we knew that it would be a visual feast, but also that it would necessarily compete with Broodwar -- in this sense it was forced upon the thriving Broodwar community, and many were apprehensive that SC2 would not live up to Broodwar's quality. I'm sure Blizzard works diligently on patching the bore out of the game, but real sports do not have this kind of problem, or this kind of solution. As of today, the only things pumping life into competitive SC2 are its angels (Blizzard et al) and sponsors that buy advertisement space during events. And this is where we can get down to the real difference between golf and croquet: What you are doing is mentioning aspects of SC2 and then somehow coming to the conclusion that they are negative, that they prove it can never be a sport. What you are missing is the middleground. Not only do you not have proof to back this up, you don't even have a reason, proof or no proof. "In football, the goalkeeper can use his hands. Thus, it is not a sport". Illogical. There's money in golf because it draws an audience. Sports entertain for spectacle, games entertain personal satisfaction. Some of the best golf players can fight against the wind and terrain to place the ball uncannily close to the hole from an unreal distance, and people want to see this. No one will pay to see your grandmother putt balls around the lawn, no matter how good she is.You can sell spectacle, but you can't sell personal satisfaction. The best SC2 can hope for is taking pocket change from introverts with addiction problems (i.e. you and me), but it will never go mainstream until it achieves a WOW factor (needless to say, it has none). I enjoy futbol, I ridicule football. One is celebrated worldwide, invokes violent nationalism, and is a joy to watch even if you've never followed the game or the teams. The other is bogged down in rules, stoppage of play, and turns its players into human battering rams. Both are sports in that they can draw an audience, but if you have watched American NFL you will understand that the genius of football as a "sport" is not its spectacle, or strategy, or anything else that might define a sport. Televised football is in fact a genius of marketing. It provides just enough hard-hitting violence in 1-2 minute blocks and then the clock stops, and that means a commercial break. In short, it's ripe for whoring out. As somebody that plays "futbol" three times a week and follows it rather religiously, it is very often NOT a joy to watch at all. The very rare game will entertain properly, most will be a walkover by one team without much interesting play. I quite like the fact you've ripped this argument off of a John Cleese video on Youtube where he says the exact same thing, and you're both equally wrong. Sports are different. Just because the one you prefer is different in a way you prefer doesn't prove it superior. Imagine if SC2 made it onto ESPN. I can't, because all the games would have to last 5-10 minutes instead of 20-30 to make room for commercials. Ok, imagine SC2 on Pay-Per-View or another premium channel. Would you pay premium rates for HD Starcraft on your television? Maybe, you're exceptional. I'm certain there are more people willing to pay for MMA and softcore porn than for pasty nerds blowing shit up on computers. Live skin >> digital skin. Well how about the Internet? Surely eSports can flourish there. Whether or not it's flourishing, that's pretty much what we have today, and even if you get tens of thousands of people tuning in to GSL/IPL/TSL/etc, you've pretty much accounted for everyone that's potentially interested in watching. And no, your non-nerdy friends aren't interested in watching space-pokemon blow each other up for great glory. Your non-nerdy friends also don't care what "damage" Savior dealt to eSports. The fact that such a large amount of personal profit could be made on the black market proves that Broodwar went mainstream... SC2 can only hope to achieve such notoriety in its lifetime. Fixed computer games, like fixed boxing matches, fixed wrestling matches, fixed horse races, or any kind of thrown victory upset people because they destroy the illusion of spectacle. Ruined matches remind you just how meaningless the game actually is and how much emotional stake you've entrusted inside the hype. Have established strategy games like chess ever had this kind of identity crisis, or do we play games for other reasons? Oh look, more opinions disguised as facts. I have introduced 4 friends into Starcraft who have actually bought the game, and watched TSL3 with about 8 on my PC back in Summer. Barcrafts are another manifestation of this identity crisis. What could be more mainstream than drinking beer and watching "the game" with other young men in the commons? Beer is great, I love beer, but the game sucks, so stop pretending that you're having a good time or that it validates your lifestyle. You're not having a good time, and you're still a nerd. You're a lonely yuppie (or worse, underage!) with nerdy hobbies desperately seeking acceptance inside an alienating society. The bartender doesn't give a fuck what the customers want to watch as long as the hockey/baseball/basketball game is not on and no one else complains. You can attend bar meetups on almost any hobby group if you look hard enough, but your willingness to spend money to be with people just like you is no more of an indicator that eSports is growing than weekend book clubs among housewives are an indicator that competitive literary leagues are on the rise. Now it's just rambling nonsensical bullshit. You go to Barcraft, you're enjoying yourself? NO YOU'RE NOT STUPID NERD YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED. Foreigners need to stop wishing for South Korea to come to their neighborhood; you cannot force culture. SC2 is an entertainment platform developed by Blizzard, delivered by the Internet streaming sites, promoted by high-end computer hardware manufacturers (i.e. shit you don't need), energy drinks, & other providers of "gamer gear," and ultimately consumed by you, the lonely PC gamer of the Western world who wants a sense of community in his hobbies. The benefactors of this niche market don't care about social recognition, they just want your money. If you advertise it to your friends, that makes "eSports" more money. So much of what you said there applies to football. Sponsors advertising stupid shit, people looking for a sense of community in their hobbies, "The Man" wanting your money. How do any of these invalidate the concept of SC2 being a sport? So when iNcontroL writes that he wants 2012 to be an even bigger year for eSports, he should probably just be satisfied that he's got a home, friends, and a semi-stable career playing a mediocre computer game with some gore and neat explosions. EG is doing better than most. Prize pools may increase under better sponsorship, but the payout is still chancey and not going to improve the quality of life of players. Under the facade of "dedication to the game," players are required to work long hours for little pay (a tiny bunkbed & Ramen noodles is not pay, it's slave wages, or the college experience without the education) and sacrificing the best years of their lives for what... the entertainment of some netizens? A slim chance at fame and riches? People work hard to get famous. People work hard to get anywhere they want to. The most famous players make big money, the lower players have to endure hard years to get there. You think this doesn't apply to other sports? What ever happened to fun gaming? Sometimes I worry that the competitive Starcraft scene is too concerned with the image of "eSports," and not discriminating enough of the game within the sport. Sometimes I think that there are too many events & wanna-be events, too many casters & wanna-be casters, too many progamers & wanna-be progamers. All too often the quality is low, which is a shame when the people that put things together are taking personal risks or volunteering their time. I hope it's worth it for the people who have a lot invested. I hope it's still fun for the players, because it's not going to get any better than this. This is the complete and fulfilled dream of eSports, and the only thing hurting eSports now is its own self-obsession. No, you don't. You want it to fail. You have created these opinions for which flawed is too much of an understatement to use because you WANT controversial opinions. You don't WANT to follow what the crowd are following. If it fails, you'll be laughing, "haha! I wasn't like the rest, I predicted this!". That is your motivation. You are not worried. Anybody remotely worried would have obliterated those pathetic arguments in their own head. And you know what? I'm willing to bet most people who agree with this thread have adopted that mentality. | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:10 BUfels wrote: Opinions disguised as facts with convincing writing. Actually, they're opinions disguised as opinions with extremely hasty writing, but thank you for the benefit of the doubt. | ||
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BUfels
Ireland26 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:14 mmp wrote: Actually, they're opinions disguised as opinions with extremely hasty writing, but thank you for the benefit of the doubt. If that was all you could rebutt in my entire post, then you don't believe in what you wrote. | ||
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kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:14 mmp wrote: Actually, they're opinions disguised as opinions with extremely hasty writing, but thank you for the benefit of the doubt. .. Did we read the same post? You made enormous generalizations about the entire community and how the game is viewed from not just your perspective. | ||
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BUfels
Ireland26 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:18 kammeyer wrote: .. Did we read the same post? He made enormous generalizations about the entire community and how the game is viewed from not just his perspective. You're talking to the OP. | ||
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kammeyer
United States275 Posts
Edited~  | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
I got the same advice 7 years ago and I'm so glad I did. | ||
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BUfels
Ireland26 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:28 Chef wrote: BUfels, don't argue like that (quote a point at a time and respond to each one). It's a really miserable and tedious way to argue and wastes a lot of time. Respond in a general, manageable way, or pick a section that interests you most or follow the current discussion of the thread. I got the same advice 7 years ago and I'm so glad I did. It's been a very long time since I've used a forum, I always used to use that way. Guess I should get out of the habit whenever I come here. I did have specific points to reply to though, I find it easier to organise it like that. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:53 Sgonzo wrote: BW is slower paced then sc2 is why it isn't as enjoyable for fans to watch, i think this is numebr one reason why starcraft 2 is so popular because it improved upon one of the biggest points for why eSports wasnt popular the pace was all wrong. look at other competitive RTS games Company Of Heroes, Dawn of War they are super slow paced like brood war, so while the garnered decent fanbases and made it into eSports tournaments they have not lasted so well other then BW, this is where sc2 has moved ahead of other games it retains its straight up and down RTS gameplay while pushing the pace to something much faster and engaging. my 2nd point to give direct comparisons between BW and sc2 is look at all the cool units that never get use in BW such as corsairs, we have a game that been around for longer then 10 years and its soooooo perfect that the pros dont use all the units please..... the unit balancing is so much better in sc2 then in brood war.(ZvZ in BW was always mutas..... boring) Ahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahha AHahhahahahhahahahhahhahahhahhahaha Ahahahhahahahhahahahhahaahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahha | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
And why can't BW and SC2 fans just leave each other in peace instead of throwing proverbial jabs at each other in the form of pieces like this  .As for the actual article there is too many horrible sweeping generalizations and incorrect statements to go over all, but the main one that stuck out was saying that everybody that is interested in watching SC2 is already doing so online. That is false, day in and day out the viewership of SC2 continues to grow and there is MOUNTAINS of proof to back it up. Also with regards to Barcraft, MMA became much more popular in the USA as it became a "bar" event. I had tons of friends that had ZERO interest in MMA, but when I went to a bar to hang out with other MMA fans and watch the fights, and they would tag along. Now most of them never miss an event. When I went to my first UFC a a bar, there was like 10 people there for the fights, now there is often 2 hour waits an hour before it starts. This is seriously the worst article I have read in a long long time. 0/5 | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:10 BUfels wrote: Opinions disguised as facts with convincing writing. This is very annoying. How can you talk on everybody's behalf? The amount of people watching live events continues to skyrocket. Hundreds of threads on esports appear daily on screddit and TL alone. What twisted world do you live in where the community's general consensus is that the game is boring to watch? Here is an example of an opinion disguised as a fact. No, sports do NOT come with expansion packs. Or, they didn't in the past. That's because a video game, to date, has not been classified a sport. You know that what prevents an expansion pack from being classified as a sport is NOT the fact that is is an expansion, but because it is a videogame. Convincing writing, but you're full of bullshit. What you are doing is mentioning aspects of SC2 and then somehow coming to the conclusion that they are negative, that they prove it can never be a sport. What you are missing is the middleground. Not only do you not have proof to back this up, you don't even have a reason, proof or no proof. "In football, the goalkeeper can use his hands. Thus, it is not a sport". Illogical. As somebody that plays "futbol" three times a week and follows it rather religiously, it is very often NOT a joy to watch at all. The very rare game will entertain properly, most will be a walkover by one team without much interesting play. I quite like the fact you've ripped this argument off of a John Cleese video on Youtube where he says the exact same thing, and you're both equally wrong. Sports are different. Just because the one you prefer is different in a way you prefer doesn't prove it superior. Oh look, more opinions disguised as facts. I have introduced 4 friends into Starcraft who have actually bought the game, and watched TSL3 with about 8 on my PC back in Summer. Now it's just rambling nonsensical bullshit. You go to Barcraft, you're enjoying yourself? NO YOU'RE NOT STUPID NERD YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED. So much of what you said there applies to football. Sponsors advertising stupid shit, people looking for a sense of community in their hobbies, "The Man" wanting your money. How do any of these invalidate the concept of SC2 being a sport? People work hard to get famous. People work hard to get anywhere they want to. The most famous players make big money, the lower players have to endure hard years to get there. You think this doesn't apply to other sports? No, you don't. You want it to fail. You have created these opinions for which flawed is too much of an understatement to use because you WANT controversial opinions. You don't WANT to follow what the crowd are following. If it fails, you'll be laughing, "haha! I wasn't like the rest, I predicted this!". That is your motivation. You are not worried. Anybody remotely worried would have obliterated those pathetic arguments in their own head. And you know what? I'm willing to bet most people who agree with this thread have adopted that mentality. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6592 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:38 Jibba wrote: Ahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahha AHahhahahahhahahahhahhahahhahhahaha Ahahahhahahahhahahahhahaahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahha :D. On another note after reading through all this I can only say I can't believe The King of Kong was such an amazing 'movie' / 'documentary'. It is clearly more entertaining to watch than sc2 because it is faster paced! and has mario! can't go wrong. | ||
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soujiro_
Uruguay5195 Posts
maybe the blog its not politically correct but it bring some interesting points | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:16 BUfels wrote: If that was all you could rebutt in my entire post, then you don't believe in what you wrote. How can I rebutt what is not false? Your determination to argue on a factual basis makes strong-arming my argument very difficult! Unfortunately I think you're focusing on all of the chips and cracks of what I wrote and not looking at the broader sculpture. You don't have to agree with my disparaging portrayal of one sport over another to hold your own biases on the same subject and arrive at your own criteria for discriminating the real sports from the phony. This is very annoying. How can you talk on everybody's behalf? The amount of people watching live events continues to skyrocket. Hundreds of threads on esports appear daily on screddit and TL alone. What twisted world do you live in where the community's general consensus is that the game is boring to watch? Here is an example of an opinion disguised as a fact. No, sports do NOT come with expansion packs. Or, they didn't in the past. That's because a video game, to date, has not been classified a sport. You know that what prevents an expansion pack from being classified as a sport is NOT the fact that is is an expansion, but because it is a videogame. Convincing writing, but you're full of bullshit. So we agree, video games are not sports -- unless you're partial to the belief that there is something special about SC2. I feel it too... it's called advertisement. Your tastes and preferences are warped to fit the market, and so we must be living in revolutionary times where anything is possible and your mother and sister will learn Starcraft and there will be stadiums full of cheering fans for... Idra??? (kill me now) What you are doing is mentioning aspects of SC2 and then somehow coming to the conclusion that they are negative, that they prove it can never be a sport. What you are missing is the middleground. Not only do you not have proof to back this up, you don't even have a reason, proof or no proof. "In football, the goalkeeper can use his hands. Thus, it is not a sport". Illogical. This isn't algebra. It's a hypothesis. Agree with it or not, the preface introduces the body material -- it does need to validate it. That's for you to think about. Oh look, more opinions disguised as facts. I have introduced 4 friends into Starcraft who have actually bought the game, and watched TSL3 with about 8 on my PC back in Summer. Your friends are nerds (this isn't a bad thing). Yes, definitely rambling. Quite shitty. You go to Barcraft, you're enjoying yourself? NO YOU'RE NOT STUPID NERD YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED. I never said you weren't allowed (who am I to prevent you?). I just said you were going to a bar for all the wrong reasons, reasons we nerds do not like to tell ourselves when we engage in social nerddom. In a nutshell, you're trying to shape the world around your private interests, rather than embracing the world as it is. So much of what you said there applies to football. Sponsors advertising stupid shit, people looking for a sense of community in their hobbies, "The Man" wanting your money. How do any of these invalidate the concept of SC2 being a sport? Because SC2 only exists to promote these things, much like the NFL. Without big sponsorship SC2 would be deader than Samir Duran, just a shiny walking corpse that no one takes seriously for its competitive value. The significance attached to skill in SC2 is completely artificial. People work hard to get famous. People work hard to get anywhere they want to. The most famous players make big money, the lower players have to endure hard years to get there. You think this doesn't apply to other sports? NCAA, poker, whatever... most never make it. The smart ones know when to walk away and revert to plan B. No one can be successful without hard work, but you need to be honest with yourself about what your goals are and why they're important to you. Most are in it for the money, and few will win big, so what does that make the rest? I think "dedicated" is too kind. No, you don't. You want it to fail. You have created these opinions for which flawed is too much of an understatement to use because you WANT controversial opinions. You don't WANT to follow what the crowd are following. If it fails, you'll be laughing, "haha! I wasn't like the rest, I predicted this!". That is your motivation. You are not worried. Anybody remotely worried would have obliterated those pathetic arguments in their own head. That is a false characterization (I'm more of the "mwahaha" evil laugher). No I am genuinely concerned about all of those talented "pros" who may have stable gigs for now, but they're not going to win a major tournament any time soon, some of them do not look happy where they are (which is sad considering they're playing a game for a living), and their youthful talents are going to waste chasing an artificial dream. At best, they can entertain us with exciting games, but (as I have already laid out) the game itself is not conducive to this task. | ||
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