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On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote:
Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth.
Speaking as one of those Chinese ppl, I can also add that the 'being stronger in science and math' part itself isn't very helpful in the long run, I mean it can get people into college more easily, but most of my Chinese friends (who had a mainland education) tends to do pretty average once they do get into college (the ones who end up doing very well usually ended up that way for other reasons, such as having ambitious personalities etc). There's a difference between being 'educated' and being 'smart', and there's also a difference between being 'smart' and 'having what it takes to be extremely successful' etc.
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I'm asian too and was school in Canada. Math/Science are my strong subjects but thats mainly because my parents have always enforced it. In fact, as a kid, I would have to go to saturday math classes to learn HK math. When I was grade 6, i was doing grade 9 math outside of school. So obviously, when I was in grade 9, i dominated that crap out of everyone else. I don't think it makes me smart cuz I learnt it earlier.
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On July 07 2010 02:39 Kalingingsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote:
Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Speaking as one of those Chinese ppl, I can also add that the 'being stronger in science and math' part itself isn't very helpful in the long run, I mean it can get people into college more easily, but most of my Chinese friends (who had a mainland education) tends to do pretty average once they do get into college (the ones who end up doing very well usually ended up that way for other reasons, such as having ambitious personalities etc). There's a difference between being 'educated' and being 'smart', and there's also a difference between being 'smart' and 'having what it takes to be extremely successful' etc.
i completely agree. I'm canto, so I know HK fobs. A lot of them dominant in highschool cuz well...its highschool. But in University, they end up being average or below average. I think english starts hurting them. Those who do do well have a strong drive.
Educated != Successful
Smart != Successful
Smart + Educated != Successful
the world is really tough out there
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On July 07 2010 02:39 Kalingingsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote:
Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Speaking as one of those Chinese ppl, I can also add that the 'being stronger in science and math' part itself isn't very helpful in the long run, I mean it can get people into college more easily, but most of my Chinese friends (who had a mainland education) tends to do pretty average once they do get into college (the ones who end up doing very well usually ended up that way for other reasons, such as having ambitious personalities etc). There's a difference between being 'educated' and being 'smart', and there's also a difference between being 'smart' and 'having what it takes to be extremely successful' etc.
lol, I wrote that ^.^, but yea I feel the same way. Give me four years and I can confirm or deny the in college part 
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Wow, these blogs are so entertaining, it feels like watching thoughts. Someone should write a book in this style, it would be a hit.
And only on TL could this turn into a discussion about Chinese education...
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On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since  This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth.
Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former.
I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough.
Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
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You need to think like your better than EVERYONE yet not act like it, its sounds really bad but it works, just dont make it a mindset, just think that way when your in a situation you think you can't handle.. worked wonders for me.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US.
Can I ask what you are basing this on?
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On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on?
He probably has his own source, but I've seen a documentary on this, I'll try to find it and post link.
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On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job
Unless it's something that the teacher said would be kept private and decided to blurt it out, why would they be fired? That's the dumbest thing ever. You don't get better at writing by having your teacher put a shiny star on your crappy paper and giving it an A.
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Me: I am nicknamed Blur. Because everytime teacher ask a simple question I go Huh? or Hmm? or ??? . Sometimes there is alot of question mark floating above my head for no reason. So I get teased alot.
Lol, that's SO ANNOYING. I've got a guy in class who does this all the time, and also asks freaking stupid questions, everybody always facepalms when that dude opens his mouth. He doesn't get bullied tho. Anyway, when you know you are doing something stupid why continue doing it?
The teacher is a huge dick btw.
Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former.
This is complete bull imo. I agree with the guy you quote. You don't have to publicily humiliate one to silent(?) him. As a teacher you should have authority, if you don't have authority you are a bad teacher. Humiliating your students won't do them any good whatsoever. Ofcourse they will shut up. But it's not the right way to do it
Chinese have better ''have a much better work ethic, discipline'' because that's their culture. Like nearly every Asian country. It's how they are raised(''they must bring honor and glory to their family'' a guy I quoted from this forum after being asked why he worked so hard). Not because of teacher publicily humiliating them. Give me a break.
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On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on?
http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264
http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-world
http://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countries
I figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries.
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On July 07 2010 03:11 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job Unless it's something that the teacher said would be kept private and decided to blurt it out, why would they be fired? That's the dumbest thing ever. You don't get better at writing by having your teacher put a shiny star on your crappy paper and giving it an A.
No, if I understand correctly he said it to the entire class. Like he looked over the essay about her feelings, said to himself "lol, what an idiot" and then shared it with the entire class so they could mock her for both her poor writing and insecurities
On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. + Show Spoiler [Xeris's comment] +Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former.
I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough.
Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
I'll be the first to admit that 80% of the kids in my class are dim, they have neither the diligence or the aptitude to do well in school. But the other 20% are very studious and motivated to do well in school and do. I don't know how we got to "Asians aren't free thinking", I know thats not true. The ones with the aptitude to perform in school are very creative and free thinking and do very well, the problem is that they don't all have this aptitude to succeed scholastically. It's the ones who don't that I think the Chinese system fails, I know these kids and they're terrible stressed and unhappy about something that's out of there control. You can kick them to do well and they can achieve excellent results through pure diligence but I don't think it's healthy or beneficial.
Holistically, the Chinese system pumps more education into more students but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead of us, especially when comparing the best students. The diligence and work ethic comes naturally when you want to work. I can't argue that the strong math/science foundations aren't beneficial and if I were going to ding the American education system for something it would be for not pushing its highest achieving students hard enough. I think more accelerated programs earlier is the best improvement, not the "lets make sure everyone succeeds as a group" we have now. But on the other side of the coin, you can't force someone to learn, just encourage and show the way.
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Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles.
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Nobody here has been in a class, probably younger years, where people are passing notes and the teacher gets ahold of it and reads it? That shit happens.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On July 07 2010 03:32 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on? http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-worldhttp://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countriesI figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries.
First article - the main discussion is China's diligent students. Focuses on how hard they work because doing well in the standardized tests is a way into a good life. It mentions a few examples of western schools shifting policies to emulate China's "there is only one answer" policies. It goes on to show that there are problems with the Chinese system and that they lead to students who crush standardized tests but have little critical thinking skills.
Second article - I don't even know what this is. It's a quote from one man and ties it into some documentary about two students? Ok, the original source is from the Aspen Institute. A brief look around their website doesn't really explain what they do outside of "preparing people for" and "raising awareness." It's probably legit I just don't know what credentials they have to write this article. Reading the original article here, doesn't really objectively address anything.
Third article - Good article.
I don't get the feeling from reading these three articles that 'education in places like China is miles ahead of the US.' I get the feeling that they have different values taught from them and that the average Chinese student is many times more diligent than even the top American students.
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On July 07 2010 03:46 Hawk wrote:
Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles.
You don't believe in any level of Student-Teacher trust? There are thousands of examples of shitty essays online and in teaching books, you don't need to break down one of your own students to show an example of bad writing. It sounds purely malicious to me
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On July 07 2010 03:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:32 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on? http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-worldhttp://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countriesI figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries. First article - the main discussion is China's diligent students. Focuses on how hard they work because doing well in the standardized tests is a way into a good life. It mentions a few examples of western schools shifting policies to emulate China's "there is only one answer" policies. It goes on to show that there are problems with the Chinese system and that they lead to students who crush standardized tests but have little critical thinking skills. Second article - I don't even know what this is. It's a quote from one man and ties it into some documentary about two students? Ok, the original source is from the Aspen Institute. A brief look around their website doesn't really explain what they do outside of "preparing people for" and "raising awareness." It's probably legit I just don't know what credentials they have to write this article. Reading the original article here, doesn't really objectively address anything. Third article - Good article. I don't get the feeling from reading these three articles that 'education in places like China is miles ahead of the US.' I get the feeling that they have different values taught from them and that the average Chinese student is many times more diligent than even the top American students.
Yeah, education in China is actually quite poor in many places. Schools are run-down and little funding is put into schools (whereas in California, among other states, most of the state's budget is uselessly funneled into the education system with the result of shiny, glowing schools and yet not-so-glowing grades).
I also agree that what separates the students of China and the US are the students themselves, not actual facilities. A big reason why Chinese students are so diligent is that many come from poor/destitute backgrounds, and their families' only hope of getting a better life is for their child to succeed in a very big way, and the most obvious way would be in school. If the student studies his/her ass off and becomes very smart, he or she could get a scholarship, go to a reputable university, and come out with a degree and get a stable, well-paying job. There isn't much else for them to do to get a better life besides excel in school.
This is somewhat of an irrelevant statistic, but it used to be that UC Berkeley produced the most students who would eventually get doctorates, but now it is third, and the first two are Chinese universities.
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On July 07 2010 04:00 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:46 Hawk wrote:
Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles. You don't believe in any level of Student-Teacher trust? There are thousands of examples of shitty essays online and in teaching books, you don't need to break down one of your own students to show an example of bad writing. It sounds purely malicious to me
Again, there's a big difference between criticism and shitting on someone for the sake of doing so. If you can't handle a professional telling you that your essay isn't as great as your mommy told you, then you're gonna get hammered in the real world.
That has absolutely nothing to do with student-teacher relationship. That's the same as your teacher telling you that you're wrong when you raise your hand. Breaching the trust would be like your teacher instructing you to keep a journal that he/she will not share with classmates and holding it up in front of the class and calling you a retard a week later.
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On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
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