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I had to re-read the OP because I forgot what the main post was even about. I always thought it was common knowledge that China's students were always scoring higher then here in the US/Canada, but I never even cared to look into it. Just seemed like one of the things that was always socially accepted as the truth.
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United States12237 Posts
On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since  This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
Having been a part of the California public school system my entire adolescent life, I know exactly what you're talking about. People throw out dozens of reasons why US schools, and California schools in particular, are so terrible (I went to three California Distinguished Schools [elementary, junior high, and high school], two of them were also National Blue Ribbon winning schools):
- Tenure prevents bad teachers from being fired so there's an extra level of security and reduced accountability.
- Teachers "teach the test" because they're mandated by management and the state/municipal government to achieve a certain pass rate on standardized tests in order to secure additional funding for the school (exacerbated by No Child Left Behind from what I understand, but that didn't take effect until after I graduated so I can't confirm).
- Threats of lawsuits from parents prevent strict disciplinary action against students (for some reason it seems to be more common for parents to shout "not my kid!" in response to accusations of defiance these days).
- I speculate that many teachers simply lose passion for teaching or otherwise lose motivation, filling in the time with movies (we watched Rudy in Pre-Calculus class, Gattaca in Biology, and Zoot Suit in Spanish 4). At the time it was a nice break, but now I feel cheated.
If that's what I got from what are supposedly among the best schools in the state and the nation, I can only imagine how terrible some of the schools in this country are.
EDIT: And I have no idea whether that automatically means schools in other countries are superior, but I'd have to venture a guess that it wouldn't be surprising.
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Asian teachers sometimes (not all) rule the class like its their own little fiefdoms where difference of opinion is not tolerated and often mocked. One time we had to write teacher evaluations which we thought were private but the teacher read some scathing comments and was mad like hell. Good thing we didn't sign the thing but it made life hell for some friends because they were suspected and treated unfairly for the rest of the year. We didn't even think about complaining to the principal. It's a bit of a shock the first time we see Caucasian kids openly defying parents/teachers. And all they get is "Go to your room!"
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On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler +
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience.
I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking.
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Calgary25986 Posts
On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler +
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking.
... Xeris. I think you can clearly see these are bad things to base an objective opinion on.
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One time I went back to visit family in Taiwan during the summer, and the kids were never around. I asked why, and the simple, straightforward answer was that they were busy in class. Full time class during summer break completely blew my mind. I mean, I'm a typically lazy guy, so I appreciate slothing around for weeks and months at a time during breaks, but these kids see the time away from school as more time to go get private tutoring! I mean, how much tutoring can you really get when you're ten? It seems ridiculous to Americans, but they really value repetition and diligence so much that if you're not working 24/7, you're falling behind. It's comparable to progaming, where if you only practice the required amount of time, you will lose out to those who practice all the time, and thus you have no choice but to practice all the time.
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On July 07 2010 04:41 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler +
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking. ... Xeris. I think you can clearly see these are bad things to base an objective opinion on.
this. international students are by far the cream of the crop. you are comparing the average of the top 2% of a country to the average of a country, so what's the result? OH NOEZ AMERICA DUMB.
Coming from India, the education system there is harsh too, based on the british system except harder. But honestly the people aren't smarter 'naturally' or anything and its not the education system per se, its just that education is culturally important and relevant to people. thats different than basing it on the system used. this is why asian-americans do well even in the 'crappy' american system.
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On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler +
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking.
That didn't address much of what I said at all, rather you just further emphasized that the Chinese you know have already been abroad. These two points especially: "My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states." Places other than America do count as being abroad.
I understand why you feel the way that you do, but you need to understand that those Chinese that you have communicated with are very different from your average Chinese student. Even the Chinese on this website, that have never been abroad, will most likely be a bit different from the average Chinese student. It's ok to take what you will away from those people, but you need to understand that there's a lot more to it, and it's difficult to realize that until you really experience it for yourself.
Also, I'm not saying Chinese education is all that bad or anything, I'll leave that debate to others. But it has some very serious flaws that most people are very unaware of.
EDIT: Oh, another interesting point to consider... Many students from other countries that obtain degrees in China often have difficulties using that degree in their home country. There are reasons for that.
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this. international students are by far the cream of the crop. you are comparing the average of the top 2% of a country to the average of a country, so what's the result? OH NOEZ AMERICA DUMB.
or maybe their parents are just really rich.
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Guys if XiaoJoyce ever reads this thread again she'll be scared out of her mind LOL
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On July 06 2010 22:46 TheAntZ wrote:ah xiao, why do you ignore my love? If only baller were here, he could explain my love for you using charts and bars. Since he is not, I will try it myself ![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/333/charto.jpg) Please accept my moist offering, kk~
LOL SC2
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Way to shit up someone's blog -.-
btw, statistically, if all education systems are the same, the best student is most likely to come from China(or is it india nowadays).
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I"m pretty sure others have mentioned this, but when a chinese student or any international student comes to USA or north america they're grades will be generally higher not because "chinese educational system is better" but because the child's family and family history value education and more smarter than the vast majority of the population back in their home country. Which is why they were able to come out in the first place.
If you take any random chinese student and make them live in usa for a certain amount of time, not every single chinese student will be able to score much higher than the average american. Infact most likely the grades will be just the same as the average american. It's just that the chinese/asian people that come out of china to study in the USA are just more academically gifted than 95% of those in china.
As for those saying chinese educationg is miles ahead of america, that is totally wrong. In china math is the only subject that chinese is miles ahead of america in. In fact what most chemistry and biology americans learn in high school, chinese only learn it at college.
There's an illusion that all chinese students value education more than american is because they attended a day's worth of class during saturdays. The reason behind that is they're actually forced to go to that class when they reach 10th grade or w/e. They don't have a choice not to go, its just like a regular weekday here in america.
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and if you are a political science student in China, guess how much you'll know/learn compared to... well almost everyone else. lol
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On July 07 2010 01:20 baller wrote:
据已真正决定使用甚至想要做看起来更像人
baller 你用的翻译机也太差劲了
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this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off.
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On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote:
this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off.
It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished.
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On July 07 2010 05:00 Orlandu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler +
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking. That didn't address much of what I said at all, rather you just further emphasized that the Chinese you know have already been abroad. These two points especially: "My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states." Places other than America do count as being abroad. I understand why you feel the way that you do, but you need to understand that those Chinese that you have communicated with are very different from your average Chinese student. Even the Chinese on this website, that have never been abroad, will most likely be a bit different from the average Chinese student. It's ok to take what you will away from those people, but you need to understand that there's a lot more to it, and it's difficult to realize that until you really experience it for yourself. Also, I'm not saying Chinese education is all that bad or anything, I'll leave that debate to others. But it has some very serious flaws that most people are very unaware of. EDIT: Oh, another interesting point to consider... Many students from other countries that obtain degrees in China often have difficulties using that degree in their home country. There are reasons for that.
I'm not talking about college / university. I'm talking about primary and secondary education. But yea, I see your points. However, I still feel like there has to be a reason people often say that America's education is really poor, it's talked about in the school system itself, it's talked about in the media, and by adults, etc. It can't just be some random phenomena in my opinion.
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On July 07 2010 06:37 tec27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote:
this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished.
Agreed. If the blog has turned from mindless flirting with a girl (WHOA GIRL ON TL GOGO CHARM PATROL) to an interesting discussion on education, I don't see how it could be bad.
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I think it has more to do with culture and values than the actual structure of the system/curriculum. A bright/motivated student is going to be able to make a lot of even a poor environment (to an extent, it can't be too horrible). Likewise, a person with little value in education/critical thinking for whatever reasons (family, personal circumstances, or just stupid) is going to squander good learning opportunities. Not to say that the system shouldn't be improved, but there are a lot of different factors that contribute to success.
The chinese perhaps place too much emphasis on doing lots of math problems. At some point most people probably become numb to it and start memorizing/cheating instead. When it gets to that point, it doesn't build up the mind, it becomes more busywork. However, the u.s definitely is on the other extreme (for ex, the pts needed to get a 500 on the SAT math section is pretty low given that it is so easy...). People shouldn't be failing algebra 2 at really high rates.
Writing is super important and u.s. schools definitely need to do a better job with it. I don't know exactly how it should be done but people need to know basic grammar and how to write a coherent paragraph by the time they graduate.
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EPT
