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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
The point here isn't that Effort blows chunks or that Shine sucks balls and all-in's every game. I just think they dealt with the situation really poorly. Yes, Shine sucks and just all-in's every game, but the fact was he pretty much outplayed Effort up until that PP. And we know the rest.
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Maybe OSL refs are in on this whole illegal betting thing '_'
Sounds suspicious
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Roffles I can't tell who or what you're mad at. Are you mad at the referees or effort or the power outage or kespa or the lack of a clearly defined set of situations where a regame will be required?
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is awesome32281 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:31 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:28 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:25 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there. shine had 4 tries total to beat effort and only won once yet shine was the one who got "robbed" Also to Hot_Bid, Effort has never beaten Shine till after that game (4-0), after Shine's mental state was destroyed by taking victory right out of his hands (just like how Flash give up after the power outage). I mean, did you see how close the game was even though effort went 9 pool speed to Shine's 12 hatch? Effort blows chunks. If EffOrt blows chunks why is everyone so scared of him advancing and predict EffOrt vs Flash finals? Not like Shine advancing would change anything. Well yeah, maybe he would all-in one guy or two, and then die to Movie. Who is predicting Effort vs. Flash finals? And who is this everyone you speak of?
On April 19 2010 08:20 lone_hydra wrote:
Completely agree. What pisses me off more is now there is a thread predicting the most likely finals to be between Effort and Flash.
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120216
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I asked in the LR thread and I want to ask here again. Does anyone know for sure if there was any proof that the mouse had stopped moving, or did they just take Effort's word for it?
If there was evidence, then I agree with the decision (even though it does make me indignant about the MSL Finals). If not, it was completely retarded.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I'm just pissed at how they run things these days. No semblance of consistency whatsoever. Plus the fact that they pretty much dodged the situation afterwards was pretty bullshit too.
The thing I dislike is that it wasn't like at the start, where nothing really happened and shit. This was like at least 10 minutes into the game and you could tell that Shine had a slight advantage. To take that away from someone and say "regame" kills morale.
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On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story.
The question isn't whether or not the problem was Effort's fault. Let's assume OGN is at fault. The problem is that kespa isn't being consistent with past decisions. Let's say for argument's sake that the technical issue was a computer fault, not Effort's. He received a re-game while he was tremendously behind in air units AND economy.
Flash had a situation where there were also technical issues which were not his fault. He did not receive a re-game.
Those saying that Effort was affected all game by the technical issue and thus fell behind because of the technical issue, rather than "falling behind" naturally like in Flash's case have no leg to stand on, because if Effort had technical issues earlier, he should have paused earlier. Instead, Effort only requested a pause and blamed the mouse issue when he had almost lost.
It's exactly as Roffles said - lack of consistency. And a lack of consistency in applying the rules can easily lead to favoritism and an unfair playing field for players.
There's no rational benefit to hoping that a certain player loses. Still, I hope Effort gets truly raped next round.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:36 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. The question isn't whether or not the problem was Effort's fault. Let's assume OGN is at fault. The problem is that kespa isn't being consistent with past decisions. Let's say for argument's sake that the technical issue was a computer fault, not Effort's. He received a re-game while he was tremendously behind in air units AND economy. Flash had a situation where there were also technical issues which were not his fault. He did not receive a re-game. Those saying that Effort was affected all game by the technical issue and thus fell behind because of the technical issue, rather than "falling behind" naturally like in Flash's case have no leg to stand on, because if Effort had technical issues earlier, he should have paused earlier. Instead, Effort only requested a pause and blamed the mouse issue when he had almost lost.It's exactly as Roffles said - lack of consistency. And a lack of consistency in applying the rules can easily lead to favoritism and an unfair playing field for players. There's no rational benefit to hoping that a certain player loses. Still, I hope Effort gets truly raped next round.
Flash was at a bad position cause of his own play. He went to the point of losing by playing and making decisions that lead to that.
EffOrt's mouse stopped responding and fucked up his micro.
If you had a save point of EffOrt vs Shine before the muta scourge battle began, I would agree to take it from there. But as the mouse malfunction already ruined it, the re-game is the best option.
Do you see the difference? I'm taking that you do from your post.
Ok, what if the mouse started working funny when you are about to attack?
For example, saving the differences, I sometimes get PC lag when playing a certain game (for example dota, or CS) because I get lots of messages on MSN or something like that. It happens randomly and it happened to me before in critical moments. It's not like my pc is working bad all game long, but just for brief periods of time.
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On April 19 2010 08:33 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:31 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:28 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:25 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there. shine had 4 tries total to beat effort and only won once yet shine was the one who got "robbed" Also to Hot_Bid, Effort has never beaten Shine till after that game (4-0), after Shine's mental state was destroyed by taking victory right out of his hands (just like how Flash give up after the power outage). I mean, did you see how close the game was even though effort went 9 pool speed to Shine's 12 hatch? Effort blows chunks. If EffOrt blows chunks why is everyone so scared of him advancing and predict EffOrt vs Flash finals? Not like Shine advancing would change anything. Well yeah, maybe he would all-in one guy or two, and then die to Movie. Who is predicting Effort vs. Flash finals? And who is this everyone you speak of? Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:20 lone_hydra wrote:
Completely agree. What pisses me off more is now there is a thread predicting the most likely finals to be between Effort and Flash.
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120216
Yeah, I saw that thread. It was based on ELO of the entire player's career. You know how Zero's stats does not reflect how good he actually is? Just like Effort's vs T elo and vs. Z elo has no reflection on how is actually doing?
And also, there is a rule that states if a player's own equipment malfunctions, its there own problem. And I am pretty damn sure Effort is aware of that. And of all the games played before and after that special game, nothing happened. So I seriously doubt the computer is a fault. I mean, a modern computer running Sarcraft is never going to crash.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:40 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:33 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:31 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:28 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:25 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there. shine had 4 tries total to beat effort and only won once yet shine was the one who got "robbed" Also to Hot_Bid, Effort has never beaten Shine till after that game (4-0), after Shine's mental state was destroyed by taking victory right out of his hands (just like how Flash give up after the power outage). I mean, did you see how close the game was even though effort went 9 pool speed to Shine's 12 hatch? Effort blows chunks. If EffOrt blows chunks why is everyone so scared of him advancing and predict EffOrt vs Flash finals? Not like Shine advancing would change anything. Well yeah, maybe he would all-in one guy or two, and then die to Movie. Who is predicting Effort vs. Flash finals? And who is this everyone you speak of? On April 19 2010 08:20 lone_hydra wrote:
Completely agree. What pisses me off more is now there is a thread predicting the most likely finals to be between Effort and Flash.
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120216 Yeah, I saw that thread. It was based on ELO of the entire player's career. You know how Zero's stats does not reflect how good he actually is? Just like Effort's vs T elo and vs. Z elo has no reflection on how is actually doing?
Yeah, still EffOrt has more experience under pressure than all the other guys on the list, except Flash, Movie and maybe ZerO. But this thread is not about what I think of that.
Your point?
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On April 19 2010 08:43 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:40 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:33 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:31 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:28 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:25 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there. shine had 4 tries total to beat effort and only won once yet shine was the one who got "robbed" Also to Hot_Bid, Effort has never beaten Shine till after that game (4-0), after Shine's mental state was destroyed by taking victory right out of his hands (just like how Flash give up after the power outage). I mean, did you see how close the game was even though effort went 9 pool speed to Shine's 12 hatch? Effort blows chunks. If EffOrt blows chunks why is everyone so scared of him advancing and predict EffOrt vs Flash finals? Not like Shine advancing would change anything. Well yeah, maybe he would all-in one guy or two, and then die to Movie. Who is predicting Effort vs. Flash finals? And who is this everyone you speak of? On April 19 2010 08:20 lone_hydra wrote:
Completely agree. What pisses me off more is now there is a thread predicting the most likely finals to be between Effort and Flash.
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120216 Yeah, I saw that thread. It was based on ELO of the entire player's career. You know how Zero's stats does not reflect how good he actually is? Just like Effort's vs T elo and vs. Z elo has no reflection on how is actually doing? Yeah, still EffOrt has more experience under pressure than all the other guys on the list, except Flash, Movie and maybe ZerO. But this thread is not about what I think of that. Your point?
I think not. How many times has Effort gone high up in a starleague compared to Kal and Zero? But you are right. This a pointless argument.
But my point still stands on how it was wrong for Effort to get a re-game.One, Player's equipments are their own responsibility. Two, they had one dude move the mouse for a few minutes as their only test to see if it is the mouse or the computer. Three, I mean really, think of all the games played on that computer that day which were fine. It is also modern computer running a 90s game. What are the chances of computer failure?
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On April 19 2010 08:51 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:43 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:40 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:33 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:31 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:28 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:25 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there. shine had 4 tries total to beat effort and only won once yet shine was the one who got "robbed" Also to Hot_Bid, Effort has never beaten Shine till after that game (4-0), after Shine's mental state was destroyed by taking victory right out of his hands (just like how Flash give up after the power outage). I mean, did you see how close the game was even though effort went 9 pool speed to Shine's 12 hatch? Effort blows chunks. If EffOrt blows chunks why is everyone so scared of him advancing and predict EffOrt vs Flash finals? Not like Shine advancing would change anything. Well yeah, maybe he would all-in one guy or two, and then die to Movie. Who is predicting Effort vs. Flash finals? And who is this everyone you speak of? On April 19 2010 08:20 lone_hydra wrote:
Completely agree. What pisses me off more is now there is a thread predicting the most likely finals to be between Effort and Flash.
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120216 Yeah, I saw that thread. It was based on ELO of the entire player's career. You know how Zero's stats does not reflect how good he actually is? Just like Effort's vs T elo and vs. Z elo has no reflection on how is actually doing? Yeah, still EffOrt has more experience under pressure than all the other guys on the list, except Flash, Movie and maybe ZerO. But this thread is not about what I think of that. Your point? I think not. How many times has Effort gone high up in a starleague compared to Kal and Zero? But you are right. This a pointless argument. But my point still stands on how it was wrong for Effort to get a re-game.One, Player's equipments are their own responsibility. Two, they had one dude move the mouse for a few minutes as their only test to see if it is the mouse or the computer. Three, I mean really, think of all the games played on that computer that day which were fine. It is also modern computer running a 90s game. What are the chances of computer failure?
Actually... the chances are very far from 0 in an infinitesimal sense. Probably more likely than a gnome randomly popping out from the ground and giving you a million dollars, which is also possible in a loose sense of the word.
OffTopic: Hi Roffles! <3
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is awesome32281 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:51 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:43 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:40 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:33 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:31 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:28 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 19 2010 08:25 lone_hydra wrote:On April 19 2010 08:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there. shine had 4 tries total to beat effort and only won once yet shine was the one who got "robbed" Also to Hot_Bid, Effort has never beaten Shine till after that game (4-0), after Shine's mental state was destroyed by taking victory right out of his hands (just like how Flash give up after the power outage). I mean, did you see how close the game was even though effort went 9 pool speed to Shine's 12 hatch? Effort blows chunks. If EffOrt blows chunks why is everyone so scared of him advancing and predict EffOrt vs Flash finals? Not like Shine advancing would change anything. Well yeah, maybe he would all-in one guy or two, and then die to Movie. Who is predicting Effort vs. Flash finals? And who is this everyone you speak of? On April 19 2010 08:20 lone_hydra wrote:
Completely agree. What pisses me off more is now there is a thread predicting the most likely finals to be between Effort and Flash.
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120216 Yeah, I saw that thread. It was based on ELO of the entire player's career. You know how Zero's stats does not reflect how good he actually is? Just like Effort's vs T elo and vs. Z elo has no reflection on how is actually doing? Yeah, still EffOrt has more experience under pressure than all the other guys on the list, except Flash, Movie and maybe ZerO. But this thread is not about what I think of that. Your point? I think not. How many times has Effort gone high up in a starleague compared to Kal and Zero? But you are right. This a pointless argument. But my point still stands on how it was wrong for Effort to get a re-game.One, Player's equipments are their own responsibility. Two, they had one dude move the mouse for a few minutes as their only test to see if it is the mouse or the computer. Three, I mean really, think of all the games played on that computer that day which were fine. It is also modern computer running a 90s game. What are the chances of computer failure?
Why does everyone talk about the equipment is the players responsability? OGN and MBC provide THE COMPUTERS. The hardware malfunction could be because of the computers or the software in the computers. That's why a referee went and check EffOrt's mouse and was indeed having problems.
Mouse failure has NOTHINIG to do with how new or old the computer is. I don't know how computer literate you are but drivers and ports are not things of "how new, or potent" a computer. A port can act up on you at times and work well again afterwards.
Same with drivers, and specially on Windows.
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is there conclusive evidence that proves effort's mouse caused his bad position in the game, instead of his own fault? If yes regame was the right move. If not then he should not have been given a regame.
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Hm I wasn't aware that this happened.
On April 19 2010 08:10 Roffles wrote:
But realistically, how many times has your computer failed to pick up a mouse signal?
Happens to me quite often. But that's mostly because my computer is bad  . When I spam too much mouse/keyboard freeze for about 10 seconds. Quite handy in a middle of a battle (which doesn't happen often, fotunately, it's mostly early game).
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On April 19 2010 08:19 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
it wasn't 100% for shine. the refs determined that it could have been a computer error, so they rematched. i can't imagine how you think someone who went 1-3 (ok 2-3 if you count the malfunctioning mouse game) against effort got "robbed". the player that deserved it advanced, end of story. It wasn't 100% for Shine, but it also wasn't 100% for JD as well. Yes, Shine could have lost the engagement, but why not just continue on if it's inconclusive? It's not like they had a power outage and couldn't continue like in MSL. They could have easily just pressed Resume and continued it from there.
As this has been discussed over and over again, it was very closet to 100% for JD, higher than the percentage for Shine.
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I can't believe how many people think the Effort situation and the Flash situation are equivalent and that Kespa should have been "consistent". Try thinking about it for more than 3 seconds before making an ironclad judgement on how similar the situations are.
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Flash vs. Jaedong:
-Game ended before it should, not the players' fault
-Regame if victor isn't clear
-Victor is clear
-->Game awarded to victor
Shine vs. Effort:
-Alleged equipment failure ruins game for a player
-Regame if equipment failure is real and not the player's fault, else continue (or disqualify pausing player)
-Equipment failure deemed to be real and not the player's fault
-->Regame
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
As I've calmed down, I've noticed that the two situations are pretty different. In Flash/JD, the logical decision would have been to resume, but since the power outage occurred, it wasn't possible. However, I still believe that the mouse situation was a bunch of codswallop and utter rubbish and that if they couldn't find anything conclusive, they should have just resumed the game. Simple as that.
And Shine would have most likely come out on top unless he displayed some of the worst mutalisk micro ever (possible though).
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 19 2010 09:28 Severedevil wrote:
Flash vs. Jaedong:
-Game ended before it should, not the players' fault
-Regame if victor isn't clear
-Victor is clear
-->Game awarded to victor
Shine vs. Effort:
-Alleged equipment failure ruins game for a player
-Regame if equipment failure is real and not the player's fault, else continue (or disqualify pausing player)
-Equipment failure deemed to be real and not the player's fault
-->Regame
But it was inconclusive. It wasn't deemed to be real nor false. So do you regame still?
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EPT
