On November 23 2009 10:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: seriously, you know why they do this? because law-abiding citizens are gonna walk right past an idling vehicle
what are they gonna say? "well i wouldn't have tried to steal it if i knew it was a bait car!!!!". strong legal defense ya got there
I agree, i don't think this is nearly as much entrapment as "To Catch a Predator" where pedophiles are pretty much forced to come to a girl they never would have met if it weren't for these people.
This is not entrapment. Entrapment is if the thieves were induced to commit a crime they wouldn't normally commit. The fact that they'd hop in and drive away in the bait car suggests they'd do the same somewhere else, if a normal person left their keys in the car.
On November 23 2009 10:00 Snet wrote: Fantastic way of catching car thieves imo. I don't see how it's bad to trick someone into stealing a bait car rather then waiting for them to steal a civilians car.
Car thieves are not random people finding a car with keys and unlocked in the street. You are setting them up.
If the idea is so good, why don't we start leaving cellphones on the floor with a GPS system. When somebody picks it up and doesn't return it, we can track them down and send them to jail too!
The law shouldn't be tempting people to commit crimes.
I see this shit all the time where I live, some people even leave the car running. People who steal a car that's been planted are no different then people who would hot wire a car and take off. They choose to steal something that isn't theirs, the only difference is they think they are the luckiest people in the world because it took no effort.
Yeah sure. Then let's tempt them even more. Throw money in the car. Maybe leave the car in a very obscure place where nobody is watching!
There's difference, cause you are offering a ridiculous scenario for someone to steal the money. The person wouldn't normally commit a crime in another situation.
You are saying it's the same to steal 500,000 us$ from a bank/house than finding a bag with that amount of money in the streets?
Lol technically stealing is stealing, but your comparisons to try and prove your point are absolutely ridiculous. You don't see bags of money being left around the streets. You do however find cars unlocked, and sometime with keys in them.
These sting operations are realistic situations that you would see in real life.
Once a tv shows start to leave a duffel bag of straight up cash in the streets, then I will agree with you.
On November 23 2009 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote: The law should try to get people NOT to commit crimes, not trying to get the worst out of people to nail them.
people who will break the law will break the law either way. Its just easier for them to commit the act when the keys are in the ignition.
On November 23 2009 10:00 Snet wrote: Fantastic way of catching car thieves imo. I don't see how it's bad to trick someone into stealing a bait car rather then waiting for them to steal a civilians car.
Car thieves are not random people finding a car with keys and unlocked in the street. You are setting them up.
If the idea is so good, why don't we start leaving cellphones on the floor with a GPS system. When somebody picks it up and doesn't return it, we can track them down and send them to jail too!
The law shouldn't be tempting people to commit crimes.
I see this shit all the time where I live, some people even leave the car running. People who steal a car that's been planted are no different then people who would hot wire a car and take off. They choose to steal something that isn't theirs, the only difference is they think they are the luckiest people in the world because it took no effort.
Yeah sure. Then let's tempt them even more. Throw money in the car. Maybe leave the car in a very obscure place where nobody is watching!
There's difference, cause you are offering a ridiculous scenario for someone to steal the money. The person wouldn't normally commit a crime in another situation.
You are saying it's the same to steal 500,000 us$ from a bank/house than finding a bag with that amount of money in the streets?
Lol technically stealing is stealing, but your comparisons to try and prove your point are absolutely ridiculous. You don't see bags of money being left around the streets. You do however find cars unlocked, and sometime with keys in them.
I would like a source for this. Specially cause I have read lots of reports of people finding briefcases with lots of money inside and them being returned (this are the cases the usually hit the news, the ones not found don't).
On November 23 2009 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote: The law should try to get people NOT to commit crimes, not trying to get the worst out of people to nail them.
Around here the motto is, "To protect and serve". Getting people behind bars using a bait car is protecting us from them getting arrested while stealing, and possibly damaging, a civilian's car.
On November 23 2009 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote: The law should try to get people NOT to commit crimes, not trying to get the worst out of people to nail them.
Around here the motto is, "To protect and serve". Getting people behind bars using a bait car is protecting us from them getting arrested while stealing, and possibly damaging, a civilian's car.
Yeah, you could have undercover agents insulting people in the streets, and if one reacts and punches the officer, arrest him. It's a nice way for protecting us from violent people.
On November 23 2009 10:00 Snet wrote: Fantastic way of catching car thieves imo. I don't see how it's bad to trick someone into stealing a bait car rather then waiting for them to steal a civilians car.
Car thieves are not random people finding a car with keys and unlocked in the street. You are setting them up.
If the idea is so good, why don't we start leaving cellphones on the floor with a GPS system. When somebody picks it up and doesn't return it, we can track them down and send them to jail too!
The law shouldn't be tempting people to commit crimes.
I see this shit all the time where I live, some people even leave the car running. People who steal a car that's been planted are no different then people who would hot wire a car and take off. They choose to steal something that isn't theirs, the only difference is they think they are the luckiest people in the world because it took no effort.
Yeah sure. Then let's tempt them even more. Throw money in the car. Maybe leave the car in a very obscure place where nobody is watching!
There's difference, cause you are offering a ridiculous scenario for someone to steal the money. The person wouldn't normally commit a crime in another situation.
You are saying it's the same to steal 500,000 us$ from a bank/house than finding a bag with that amount of money in the streets?
Lol technically stealing is stealing, but your comparisons to try and prove your point are absolutely ridiculous. You don't see bags of money being left around the streets. You do however find cars unlocked, and sometime with keys in them.
I would like a source for this. Specially cause I have read lots of reports of people finding briefcases with lots of money inside and them being returned (this are the cases the usually hit the news, the ones not found don't).
There are thousands upon thousands of people in America with felony grand theft auto records. There are what a few cases of random cash being found a year? It's just not a normal occurrence dude. Stealing cars is a problem that effects alot of people on a regular basis, and shows almost no sign of stopping.
I am having a hard time understanding why you continue to defend this comparison. And asking for sources in this conversation is just retarded. It would be like someone asking for a source when someone tells you more people are caught buying/selling drugs than finding a plasma TV abandoned in an alleyway.
On November 23 2009 10:22 IntoTheWow wrote: The law should try to get people NOT to commit crimes, not trying to get the worst out of people to nail them.
Around here the motto is, "To protect and serve". Getting people behind bars using a bait car is protecting us from them getting arrested while stealing, and possibly damaging, a civilian's car.
Yeah, you could have undercover agents insulting people in the streets, and if one reacts and punches the officer, arrest him. It's a nice way for protecting us from violent people.
Now I would agree with you there. Provoking someone to punch an undercover officer with the intent to arrest them for aggravated assault would be entrapment.
Now I hope you could agree with me entering a car that is not yours and stealing it is alot different then the comparison you just made.
Yeah it's different. The same way it's different someone running into a car with open doors and keys left there and taking it than somebody violating a car's security to steal it.
You don't like the money bag analogy? Fine. How about lost cellphones?
Would you set up a similar kind of system leaving cellphones in random places for people to take them? Would you arrest the people taking the cellphones?
There's a study on how the surroundings of a robbery affect people to perform those crimes. If you are really interested in this stuff, I recommend you reading an article about the "broken windows theory".
Also I don't know why you defend this method so much. Why not just patrol the streets and persecute the people that commit the crimes on their own without a set up.
edit:
Also I don't see how the seriousness of the crime or how often it happens affects the morals of the law.
We are not debating if we should use this method in X or Y cases. We are debating whether it's moral or not for the law to use this methods in the first place. So it doesn't matter if crime happens 100 or 1,000 times a year.
On November 23 2009 10:50 YPang wrote: what was more funny is that this video further strengthens the stereotypes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they used this kind of shit only on certain places. But I also wouldn't be surprised when people came and defended this attitude by saying it's ok to do them in places where the crime rates are higher.
On November 23 2009 10:46 IntoTheWow wrote: Yeah it's different. The same way it's different someone running into a car with open doors and keys left there and taking it than somebody violating a car's security to steal it.
You don't like the money bag analogy? Fine. How about lost cellphones?
Would you set up a similar kind of system leaving cellphones in random places for people to take them? Would you arrest the people taking the cellphones?
There's a study on how the surroundings of a robbery affect people to perform those crimes. If you are really interested in this stuff, I recommend you reading an article about the "broken windows theory".
I would see no problem in a situation like having someone leave their phone at a table in a restaurant then going to the bathroom and catching someone stealing it. I would absolutely agree with charging someone who takes something that isn't there's.
If someone found a cell phone in a store on the floor and took it, they should get fined at the very least if it was possible to catch them and prove they were going to keep it, and not trying to return it.
Like I said earlier, if police had the time and money to setup stings for these trivial things they probably would. And I would agree with it.
On November 23 2009 11:01 Spike wrote: Gut reaction was this isn't entrapment. No problem with morality for me when the perpetrators also acted immorally.
C'mon now, this isn't like finding a phone on the sidewalk. It's a fucking car.
Who would walk by a car, engines running or no, and think to get in and drive away? A short prison sentence or decent fine is alright with me.
and it isn't even a cheap car, its a pretty expensive exclade or w/e its called.
EPT
