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CrimsonLotus
Colombia1123 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:03 Frits wrote: There's absolutely no way this will reduce crime since a crime is dependant on person + situation, where the situation variable is way more relevant. Well, it did: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Vancouver recognizes bait program cent drop thefts/2051972/story.html | ||
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3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
On November 23 2009 11:50 Frits wrote: A sensible person also doesn't leave a car in the middle of the street with the keys in the ignition in a crappy neighbourhood. In small towns, however, it's fairly common to see people leave their cars running on the street if they're just going to be 5 minutes in a store. It's not an entirely absurd scenario. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:14 3clipse wrote: In small towns, however, it's fairly common to see people leave their cars running on the street if they're just going to be 5 minutes in a store. It's not an entirely absurd scenario. But they didn't leave their car in the middle of a small town........ | ||
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Fixed
United States174 Posts
This is simply part of police officers jobs. Plain and simple law abiding citiznes would simply walk by the car or maybe even report the vehicle to the police or the store its parked in front of. Useless criminals are the ones trying to steal it. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:14 CrimsonLotus wrote: Well, it did: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Vancouver recognizes bait program cent drop thefts/2051972/story.html Are those from the same show? Those look like different scenarios to me. Obviously if you increase the chance of getting caught in a realistic car theft situation, car theft will decrease. I was talking about unrealistic situations being immoral. Also, correlation =/= causation, there's no mention if there were any other measures etc. And I said crime wouldn't drop, all this did was reduce car theft. Posting one statistic is not saying all that much, even if it seems promising. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
obviously the goal of this is to reduce car theft, and it has. obviously it's not meant to reduce "crime" as a generalization. given the context of this thread the definition of "crime" in your post should only pertain to car theft, otherwise we're talking about apples and oranges here and whats the point  | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
edit: actually nvm I don't agree with this either way | ||
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Freyr
United States500 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:34 zulu_nation8 wrote: I think the real problem is, this is fine if its not a reality show and not made for television. I agree that this most certainly should not be a television show, amusing as it may sometimes be. I appreciate the arguments of IntotheWow, and I'm not sure where I'd draw the line. As an example of a 'sting' operation which I support, I've heard of police officers posing as drunks or other vulnerable people in order to draw out and catch muggers. Muggers are a physical threat to many people, and I see their removal with this method as justified. | ||
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:03 Frits wrote: How is it moral? Those people are only criminals because they fall for a scenario created by the people that should uphold the law. You can't label someone a criminal before he has actually comitted a crime. All they're doing is solving the crime they created themselves. This is the most counter productive thing I have ever seen. There's absolutely no way this will reduce crime since a crime is dependant on person + situation, where the situation variable is way more relevant. The chances that they catch someone who is actually looking to steal a car before this situation presented itself is really small. Not to mention that NOONE leaves their car with the keys still in it. Does anyone here even wonder why we put locks on things? Because it reduces crime. If crime were completely dependent on personality there would be no point in locking things, since it wouldn't affect crime rates. How is stealing something not a crime? All the police are doing is making it easy to do. That's why I agree with bait car stings. What I'm trying to say is, just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not a crime. People do leave keys in their car, people do leave their cars running. Sure, it's not smart but it does happen. My uncle worked at a gas station for the majority of his adult life and he told me countless stories of people coming into the store and going out to find their car missing because they left the keys in the ignition. Stuff like this does happen. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32282 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:19 Fixed wrote: Intothewow is delusional....next hes gona tell us that cops shouldnt set up people trying to buy hookers, drugs, or anything like that. This is simply part of police officers jobs. Plain and simple law abiding citiznes would simply walk by the car or maybe even report the vehicle to the police or the store its parked in front of. Useless criminals are the ones trying to steal it. yeah, nice ad hominem. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: that's a semantics argument frits obviously the goal of this is to reduce car theft, and it has. obviously it's not meant to reduce "crime" as a generalization. given the context of this thread the definition of "crime" in your post should only pertain to car theft, otherwise we're talking about apples and oranges here and whats the point Ofcourse it's apples and oranges since they're two different things. Doesn't change the fact that you're ignoring the bigger picture and base your thoughts on potentially misleading statistics. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:40 Snet wrote: How is stealing something not a crime? All the police are doing is making it easy to do. That's why I agree with bait car stings. What I'm trying to say is, just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not a crime. People do leave keys in their car, people do leave their cars running. Sure, it's not smart but it does happen. My uncle worked at a gas station for the majority of his adult life and he told me countless stories of people coming into the store and going out to find their car missing because they left the keys in the ignition. Stuff like this does happen. I never said it's not a crime. I never said anything even close to that. You create a completely new statement that's incredibly easy to refute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). | ||
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3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:18 Frits wrote: But they didn't leave their car in the middle of a small town........ That's irrelevant to my argument and clearly acknowledged by my quoting of your post and the word "however". If we can agree that, in many contexts, one can leave their car running for a few minutes and expect it to be there when one returns, we can't make the blanket statement that it's an unrealistic scenario and that it would be impossible for average people to resist stealing them. "In 2007, 641 out of 5,060 vehicles (12.7 %) stolen in the city of Portland had the keys in the vehicle." http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?c=46788 Clearly this does happen; it's not some fantasy manufactured by the police to lure people who would not normally steal cars into stealing cars. | ||
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Azrael1111
United States550 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
The woman in the video are clearly dishonest and one of them already said she had a warrant for her arrest, but they don't appear to be car thieves. Doubt this is going to do anything for prevention by catching people that aren't even real car thieves. I think a better sting operation is to leave unlocked bicycles by stores with GPS in them and wait for them to get stolen. Because we've all probably been in a situation where we've had to leave our bicycle unlocked while we ran into a place and worried about it getting stolen, so that's a real crime that happens all the time, unlike the abandoned running car with unlocked doors thefts. | ||
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:49 Frits wrote: I never said it's not a crime. I never said anything even close to that. The part about "Those people are only criminals because they fall for a scenario created by the people that should uphold the law. You can't label someone a criminal before he has actually comitted a crime." came off alot like you were saying they aren't criminals because they fell for a trap. I see I misunderstood. | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On November 23 2009 12:52 3clipse wrote: That's irrelevant to my argument and clearly acknowledged by my quoting of your post and the word "however". If we can agree that, in many contexts, one can leave their car running for a few minutes and expect it to be there when one returns, we can't make the blanket statement that it's an unrealistic scenario and that it would be impossible for average people to resist stealing them. "In 2007, 641 out of 5,060 vehicles (12.7 %) stolen in the city of Portland had the keys in the vehicle." http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?c=46788 Clearly this does happen; it's not some fantasy manufactured by the police to lure people who would not normally steal cars into stealing cars. Enough with the strawmen, I didn't say it's a manufactured fantasy I said it's unrealistic. They leave these cars out there until someone stumbles upon them, not leave them for 5 minutes in places that are likely to have cars with keys still in them (at gas stations etc, where the likeliness of criminals waiting to steal something is much larger). If you leave a car out in the open for a large amount of time the likeliness of it getting stolen increases until it reaches eventually 100%. This is not proving anything, the police are just creating statistics to look good. They're preventing car theft because they create so many car thefts and instantly solve them that the amount of real car thefts are left ignored. The crime rates of car theft probably rose with 70% when they started doing these busts before they dropped 70%. Also you said it's common in small towns. I said it's irrelevant. And suddenly it's relevant because it happens rarely in cities? That doesn't make sense. | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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