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Northern Ireland26758 Posts
On December 12 2022 00:20 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 23:21 WombaT wrote:On December 11 2022 13:54 RKC wrote:On December 05 2022 23:18 RKC wrote:On December 05 2022 22:50 justanothertownie wrote:On December 05 2022 21:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 05 2022 20:30 justanothertownie wrote:On December 05 2022 20:01 Faruko wrote:
Being presumptuous is kinda an English trait when it comes to football tbh, although this generation does feel a lot more "real". I finally see a generation that could actual live up to the hype.
And it's funny to see but Maguire is like england best player this World Cup lol, although he has yet to play a side with some quality players up front (Just USA with Pulisic) Maguire vs. Mbappe has the potential to become a traumatic experience for England though. If that's the duel then England dies. If it's more of a Kyle walker faces mbappe and Maguire duels with giroud to deal with mbappe's crosses, England has a fair shot. First team to score is obviously huge in general, but I think it'll be particularly important here. Yeah, I also expect Walker to have to deal with him. The question is how consistent that can be done throughout the game. England has enough pacy defenders to track and mark Mbappe. The real challenge, I feel, is neutralising the intelligent plays of Griezmann and Giroud, or adapt to Mbappe switching to a more central role (like against Poland). As always, the battle will be won or lost in the middle of the park. Henderson and Rice have got to be on top form. You had been warned, England! :/ Was a good shout I have to say! Giroud is in the category of ‘so many people say he’s underrated he’s no longer underrated’, Griezman to my money is just criminally underrated. I think broadly England did a good job, it’s impossible to keep players 100% quiet at this level, you just have to hope they don’t take their moments the 1-2 times. And they actually did keep Mbappe reasonably quiet. The flip-side the French did a fine job on keeping Bellingham from surging, or Foden from roaming and being too influential. But Saka did get some joy and while the penalty miss will be the takeaway I think Kane had a good game. Almost won a penalty, fashioned a few fine saves from Lloris and also had some joy when he was dropping deeper. Hey I was a bit disappointed in the result but what you want to see in a WC knockout game, two quality teams really pushing each other. Based on what I’ve seen so far it could have been a fitting final but the bracket is the bracket. This is just my take on the difference between why the overall setup for France was more superior than England. Deschamps has created a system for his players to excel as a unit. If one player underperforms, another can step up. There's a Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C. It's likely he anticipated England will neutralise Mbappe. But he's confident others like Giroud, Griezmann, and Dembele can trouble England even if Mbappe is subdued. Southgate also has many plans in mind. And he tinkers during the lead-up during the WC. But once the WC kicks in and players start to perform at different levels, he goes all-in on a plan. And for this WC, the attack plan was Bellingam and Saka. But the problem is that he hasn't quite figured any Plan B or Plan C. Or maybe he knows, but tends to react too late in making substitutions. His fault perhaps lies in trusting the in-form players too much. He isn't flexible enough to change plans and switch gears midway through the match or even tournament. If you look back at the past WC, the top European teams roughly adopt the French approach - Spain in 2010 and Germany 2014. They don't depend on 2-3 players to create chances and score goals. Their defenders and holding midfielders are ready to step up to find spaces and contribute in attack. Their tactics are fluid. The perfect example is France winning the WC in 2018 with Giroud playing all games and not scoring a single goal. And now, he's banging goals for fun. In both WC, he has contributed in different ways. The only established player in England who has evolved from tournament to tournament is Kane. I don't know what exactly was Deschamps' Plan A yesterday. But despite England being more dominant, France looked rather confortable and had a good gameplan in neutralising England's strike force (although with a lot of use of dark arts - tactical fouling). The penalties conceded were due to some poor lapse of judgment and concentration. Southgate could've done better by making changes earlier to mess up with the opposition's minds and flow. There was just not enough time for the attacking substitutes to settle in and make an impact (Mount winning the penalty was rather lucky). It would've have been interesting if England had taken the lead and France became the team that had to make a change. But I'm fairly confident Deschamps would've executed Plan B and Plan C much quicker.
I’m not sure I agree, for the most part Deschaumps just has a very good plan A that eventually ends up working, as the personnel are just so good.
Spain are almost the archetype of basically having one incredibly effective way of playing in their heyday.
With England I’m not sure they have the personnel to really fundamentally change their approach all that much. They’re stack in wide forwards but not so much in other areas. So it really becomes a question of which of those wide forwards is present while executing plan A, and what flank they’re operating off of.
The teams I’d associate most with big tactical changes are some of the smaller/less fancied nations and the Netherlands seem to do quite a bit of it.
I think broadly if your plan A is vaguely working it’s tricky to shift from that. It’s a tricky situation as the ‘what ifs’ will always be weighed higher than what we actually see on the field of play. If England had gone for broke and made big changes and conceded 2 late goals then they’d be criticised for changing what was largely keeping them in the contest.
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Norway28792 Posts
On December 12 2022 00:51 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2022 23:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think England really needs to do any soul searching after this. They overall looked the slightly better team against the reigning champions and current favorites to win it all, and they missed out on extra time because they missed a penalty. Good effort. Didn't work out. At these margins you play against the scoreline moreso than you play against your opponent. England were a goal down for most of the match, if you reverse the evolution of the scoreline I guarantee France would have put 5x more pressure on England than England was able to put on them. They did fine but I can't say they looked the better team in these circumstances.
I think England specifically looked the best for the entire duration of the game when the score was 1-1.
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Deschamps is actually the star of the French national team. France has always had huge talent in their squad but the way hes been able to make the team being the focus and not single players is so remarkable
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France can shift between 1-5 gears. They're good in controlling the tempo of the game. They didn't even play at top gear against England. That's the scary part.
The only moments in recent major tourneys that they kinda lost the plot is the loss against Switzerland in Euro 2020 and the rollercoaster against Argentina in WC 2018. Didn't really watch Nation League, not sure how seriously they took the games there.
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I'm not sure I'm buying the "France in control" narrative.
England honestly looked better for the majority of that game and France even looked like they had very real vulnerabilities against Poland; Poland had multiple legitimate chances to take the lead early in that game before France started scoring.
My takeaway from these games is that France absolutely has the talent to win trophies (particularly when they don't have so many injuries) but that they also have plenty of vulnerabilities, meaning they aren't truly dominant.
It'll be interesting to see how things go for the last two rounds. I'm really rooting for Morocco here.
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France12912 Posts
On December 13 2022 01:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I'm not sure I'm buying the "France in control" narrative.
England honestly looked better for the majority of that game and France even looked like they had very real vulnerabilities against Poland; Poland had multiple legitimate chances to take the lead early in that game before France started scoring.
My takeaway from these games is that France absolutely has the talent to win trophies (particularly when they don't have so many injuries) but that they also have plenty of vulnerabilities, meaning they aren't truly dominant.
It'll be interesting to see how things go for the last two rounds. I'm really rooting for Morocco here.
No team is truly dominant in modern football though? (national teams at least)
Brazil was said to be the absolute top dogs and they could not even beat Croatia, so even though I agree that our French squad is not truly dominant, I don't think there is a dominant squad at all anyways.
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On December 13 2022 01:41 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 01:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I'm not sure I'm buying the "France in control" narrative.
England honestly looked better for the majority of that game and France even looked like they had very real vulnerabilities against Poland; Poland had multiple legitimate chances to take the lead early in that game before France started scoring.
My takeaway from these games is that France absolutely has the talent to win trophies (particularly when they don't have so many injuries) but that they also have plenty of vulnerabilities, meaning they aren't truly dominant.
It'll be interesting to see how things go for the last two rounds. I'm really rooting for Morocco here. No team is truly dominant in modern football though? (national teams at least) Brazil was said to be the absolute top dogs and they could not even beat Croatia, so even though I agree that our French squad is not truly dominant, I don't think there is a dominant squad at all anyways.
100% agree, but a lot of people and outlets try to make it sound that way still.
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I think with France though we all know how they would increase their level if they were behind in a game
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Also the 4 teams that are left in the WC play really cautious football, will attack but just when they can or have to, otherwise they will just try to control the game.
Morocco and Croatia kinda more defensive stance while France and Argentina a bit more about pressuring the mid
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On December 13 2022 01:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I'm not sure I'm buying the "France in control" narrative.
England honestly looked better for the majority of that game and France even looked like they had very real vulnerabilities against Poland; Poland had multiple legitimate chances to take the lead early in that game before France started scoring.
My takeaway from these games is that France absolutely has the talent to win trophies (particularly when they don't have so many injuries) but that they also have plenty of vulnerabilities, meaning they aren't truly dominant.
It'll be interesting to see how things go for the last two rounds. I'm really rooting for Morocco here.
I'll be happy to be a non dominant back to back champion, sending 57 then 60 players to the world cup.
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Northern Ireland26758 Posts
On December 13 2022 02:44 sharkie wrote:
I think with France though we all know how they would increase their level if they were behind in a game
Would we?
France were better than England from 0-0 until they took the lead, then kept the upper hand for a while. But for pretty good chunks of 1-0, 1-1 and 2-1 they weren’t
If anything I’d expect them to kill off a game against a team already chasing a deficit than I would for them to step it up if they were behind.
So much pace in behind and so much solidity all-round, it’s kind of the scenario tailor-made for this French team.
I think the team certainly has the capability to just hit some other gear from a deficit, but equally they didn’t hit some other gear to kill England off entirely so I’m not sure it’s a given
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Hm... possibly due to losing control over the Argentina Netherlands match?
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I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along.
In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in.
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On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in.
Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it.
And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game.
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On December 13 2022 06:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 02:44 sharkie wrote:
I think with France though we all know how they would increase their level if they were behind in a game Would we? France were better than England from 0-0 until they took the lead, then kept the upper hand for a while. But for pretty good chunks of 1-0, 1-1 and 2-1 they weren’t If anything I’d expect them to kill off a game against a team already chasing a deficit than I would for them to step it up if they were behind. So much pace in behind and so much solidity all-round, it’s kind of the scenario tailor-made for this French team. I think the team certainly has the capability to just hit some other gear from a deficit, but equally they didn’t hit some other gear to kill England off entirely so I’m not sure it’s a given
It may have been a tactical issue.
I thought England marked McBaps really well, so it kind of forced France to play possession in attack instead of the counter, so they could play through Griezmann.
The thing is with France, they are very adaptable and flexible in their approach, so that also worked in their favour in alot of ways.
However, England are also a pretty good team so France weren't able to control possession for long periods and ended up dropping back.
France defended excellently though, except for incredibly questionable challenges in the box. England didn't particularly look like scoring apart from the penalties.
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On December 13 2022 06:37 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in. Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it. And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game.
This sort of attitude is why there is a referee shortage. Who would want to referee? You get a torrent of abuse no matter what you do
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On December 13 2022 14:32 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 06:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in. Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it. And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game. This sort of attitude is why there is a referee shortage. Who would want to referee? You get a torrent of abuse no matter what you do
If refs were reasonable they wouldnt get all that abuse. Its their attitude thats the problem and not the fans
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Fans and players attitude to referees are a massive problem but that doesn't mean sending Lahoz home is bad. He didn't deliver so now he has no chance to ref the finals. That's how it works in every job.
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That is normal tho. After every round a bunch of them go home because a lot less ref teams are required for the next round.
Usually you are a prime candidate to leave if your country's NT is doing well but that is not the sole reason why they go home during the WC.
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Netherlands13554 Posts
The problem isn't that Lahoz didn't hand out enough yellows, but that he was extremely inconsistent. He would book players for minor offenses, let bigger fouls go and whistled for every minor 'foul'. So at one point he broke up a play which was fine and at another he would let play go on. Both teams (and respective fans) felt they got the shorter end of the stick in refereeing decisions. Both teams got extremely frustrated at the ref and handed out their frustration on the other team, hence why so many 'fights' broke out.
The most blatant inconsistence was Romero getting a yellow for an intentional handball (which is a textbook yellow card) and Messi not getting one 10 minutes later for an even more intentional (cynical) handball.
Thing is, the match was fine and didn't need that many bookings. It wasn't extremely rough or anything. The best referee is the referee that's hardly visible in a match. Netherlands - Argentina became the Lahoz show.
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EPT
