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On December 13 2022 15:30 RvB wrote:
Fans and players attitude to referees are a massive problem but that doesn't mean sending Lahoz home is bad. He didn't deliver so now he has no chance to ref the finals. That's how it works in every job.
Exactly. There was no system to his refereeing in that game. If a player doesn't know what kind of action leads to consequences both sides will test the limits in a game this important. Consistency would have helped to prevent the amount of cards given.
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On December 13 2022 14:37 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 14:32 DropBear wrote:On December 13 2022 06:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:On December 13 2022 06:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Hm... possibly due to losing control over the Argentina Netherlands match?
I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in. Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it. And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game. This sort of attitude is why there is a referee shortage. Who would want to referee? You get a torrent of abuse no matter what you do If refs were reasonable they wouldnt get all that abuse. Its their attitude thats the problem and not the fans
That is ridiculous! It's absolutely the fans and players attitude.
Obviously refs make mistakes and all but that is just human and not because they are arrogant.
But if you have to be scared for your life after a wrongly given penalty or sth. that is on the players and fans.
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Yes obv they make mistakes but they dont ADMIT to them or show any kind of remorse or cry for help.
What is so difficult to understand that refs make themselves unpopular by their own accord?
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On December 13 2022 18:10 sharkie wrote:
Yes obv they make mistakes but they dont ADMIT to them or show any kind of remorse or cry for help.
What is so difficult to understand that refs make themselves unpopular by their own accord?
Are we still talking about Refs or about politicians? xD
I think we all can agree that something about the ruleset in football needs to change. AFAIK football is also the only sport where the Refs are constantly under attack by players, fans and the media. In every other sport there is a level of respect for the refs that is unheard of in football. Obviously you hear from a bad ref in handball, hockey or tennis but it's more exception than rule.
The lower leagues and youth leagues are already lacking huge amounts of refs here in Germany because of the behaviour of players and fans. It doesn't even matter if the ref was good or bad. Someone is always unhappy.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On December 13 2022 18:10 sharkie wrote:
Yes obv they make mistakes but they dont ADMIT to them or show any kind of remorse or cry for help.
What is so difficult to understand that refs make themselves unpopular by their own accord?
Let’s say they do admit to mistakes, or explain decisions afterwards. Something I wouldn’t mind.
What then? Same fans that abuse them, that genuinely believe refs have agendas against their clubs, who just want ‘honesty’ would then lambast said same refs for being weak in admitting fallibility.
In 2022 few will admit to it but many fans wanted VAR so more bad decisions got rectified. Now they’re moaning about VAR.
It’s a very partisan game is football. Fans actively want that to remain the case, for the most part. Less ‘gg wp’ and more balance whining is the currency of such an emotive game.
Look they’re not beyond criticism but referees get shit on more than an incredibly, incredibly desperate pornstar, from fans, from managers, from players.
Referees really aren’t the problem here by and large.
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Referees could ask for rule changes, they could ask for help (e.g. dont let one person have final say)
Rational fans dont moan about VAR the technology, they moan about the implementation/the PEOPLE behind VAR (referees again).
If you have technology to help you and some other people, mistakes would be minimised so much that they wouldnt get so much shit. But they dont want to give up their power, they enjoy being able to put these millionaires (football players) to their places.
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On December 13 2022 14:37 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 14:32 DropBear wrote:On December 13 2022 06:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in. Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it. And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game. This sort of attitude is why there is a referee shortage. Who would want to referee? You get a torrent of abuse no matter what you do If refs were reasonable they wouldnt get all that abuse. Its their attitude thats the problem and not the fans
I'm sorry but this is one of the worst takes I think I've ever heard
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On December 13 2022 18:05 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 14:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 14:32 DropBear wrote:On December 13 2022 06:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in. Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it. And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game. This sort of attitude is why there is a referee shortage. Who would want to referee? You get a torrent of abuse no matter what you do If refs were reasonable they wouldnt get all that abuse. Its their attitude thats the problem and not the fans That is ridiculous! It's absolutely the fans and players attitude. Obviously refs make mistakes and all but that is just human and not because they are arrogant. But if you have to be scared for your life after a wrongly given penalty or sth. that is on the players and fans.
How is the situation in German amateur football? Bundesliga's refereeing is my favorite by far and I feel a lot of it comes from clubs not letting players abuse the ref (minus a team playing in red), at least compared to other countries.
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On December 13 2022 22:09 sharkie wrote:
...
Rational fans ...
What kind of unicorn is that supposed to be?
In all seriousness though: Children who want to play football learn very early on that it's always the refs fault. They see it in the biggest leagues, they see it when their parents watch TV , they see it everywhere. Hell, players attack the ref even if he made the right choice and they know it. Just because. This has nothing to do with " putting these millionaires (football players) to their places"
@Nojok
In youth league games most of the time someone from the home team does the refereeing. Obviously biased but better than nothing.
On a league level (from amateur to Bundesliga) the number went down from 81000 licensed referees in 2006 to 44000 in 2021
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On December 13 2022 23:45 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2022 18:05 Harris1st wrote:On December 13 2022 14:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 14:32 DropBear wrote:On December 13 2022 06:37 sharkie wrote:On December 13 2022 06:30 Oukka wrote:I really dislike this. I get that he "lost control" of a game, but honestly referees do not mostly have the tools to control a game if the players do not want to play along. In theory there could and likely should have probably been a chunk more yellows for unsportsmanlike behaviour, which may have amounted to some sending offs, but would that have been any better refereeing? Doubt it. Putting more spotlight on refs at the top-level is understandable, but the signaling to football as a sport is not good. My understanding is that places like the UK are already struggling for refs at grassroots level and these kind of things are not how you make the environment more attractive or how you attract more people in. Dont feel any pity for referees. Most are arrogant and never accept or see that they made any mistakes and they dont want to delegate responsibility. I am sure most of the football world would love for decisions not to be made by one single person. Its the refs who cling to that power and dont want to change it. And yes, giving reds for cardable offenses and giving out yellows earlier helps control a game. This sort of attitude is why there is a referee shortage. Who would want to referee? You get a torrent of abuse no matter what you do If refs were reasonable they wouldnt get all that abuse. Its their attitude thats the problem and not the fans That is ridiculous! It's absolutely the fans and players attitude. Obviously refs make mistakes and all but that is just human and not because they are arrogant. But if you have to be scared for your life after a wrongly given penalty or sth. that is on the players and fans. How is the situation in German amateur football? Bundesliga's refereeing is my favorite by far and I feel a lot of it comes from clubs not letting players abuse the ref (minus a team playing in red), at least compared to other countries.
A team playing in red? I think the team who has been abusing referees the most in recent times is playing in yellow/black. I distinctly remember certain statements which led to referees not being able to do their job for a while.
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On December 14 2022 02:26 plasmidghost wrote:Y'all remember how Grant Wahl died at the WC on Friday? It looks like the actual cause may be significantly more scary than Qatar killing him, as his brother initially claimed: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +The brother of influential US soccer journalist Grant Wahl, who died while covering the World Cup in Qatar on Friday, says he no longer suspects foul play in his sibling’s death.
Grant Wahl, 49, had a “death rattle cough” from a stubborn case of bronchitis shortly before he collapsed while covering Argentina’s quarter-final win against the Netherlands, his brother Eric Wahl said.
Eric previously speculated foul play may have been involved since the soccer writer was an outspoken critic of the Qatari government and received death threats after wearing a rainbow shirt to a match.
But Tuesday, the brother wrote on Twitter, “The family will release a statement as to cause of death soon. I no longer suspect foul play. It was not [pulmonary embolism].” https://nypost.com/2022/12/13/grant-wahls-family-speaks-out-about-soccer-journalists-cause-of-death-at-world-cup/
I do remember Grant Wahl, he was one of my favorite football journalist. RIP.
Nevermind the rest of what I originally posted.
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No idea. But the pressure on Messi has to be insane, more insane than the Mexico game. The one person who has more on him is probably Lionel Scaloni.
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I would think that would be difficult against the team that has made it to the final twice in a row.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On December 14 2022 03:56 plasmidghost wrote:
My knowledge of football tactics is limited but my thought is that Argentina will try to attack hard for the first 10-15 minutes and try to get a goal, then keep the pressure up and not allow Croatia to try to counter
They’ll keep it tight enough and hope Messi unlocks Croatia
I think if a pleb like me can see that Croatia have such a gifted midfield that trying to go toe to toe, attack for attack may be risky, Scaloni and the rest of the Argentinian coaching staff probably realise that.
Bright enough start!
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Dunno my impression is that neither team wants to commit too much and take a risk that might backfire yet. Might also be just what happens naturally if either team has a strong midfield. Or maybe both teams, having just won penalty shootouts, wouldnt mind going to penalties again.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On December 13 2022 22:09 sharkie wrote:
Referees could ask for rule changes, they could ask for help (e.g. dont let one person have final say)
Rational fans dont moan about VAR the technology, they moan about the implementation/the PEOPLE behind VAR (referees again).
If you have technology to help you and some other people, mistakes would be minimised so much that they wouldnt get so much shit. But they dont want to give up their power, they enjoy being able to put these millionaires (football players) to their places.
This permeates through all levels of play though.
A parent had to be bloody ejected at my kid’s B-team under 9 game the other week for throwing abuse at the referee
Not just in Germany as posted in the UK grass roots referee numbers are plummeting because they couldn’t be arsed dealing with abuse on their weekend. A vanishingly small portion of them ever make it to a position to boss millionaire superstars about.
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EPT
