• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:10
CEST 14:10
KST 21:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup6StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)67Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2316
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) Back to SC2 after 14 years - Protoss CTRL groups? How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? October World Ranking: herO stays #1, ByuN returns
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder Sagi.gg Launcher Released Fantasy returning? BSL Season 23 BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 2v2v2v2 Tournament [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10088 users

US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 331

Forum Index > Website Feedback
Post a Reply
Prev 1 329 330 331 332 333 345 Next
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27456 Posts
September 20 2025 16:00 GMT
#6601
On September 21 2025 00:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
Anyone remember when everyone was sure I was the reason JimmiC's posting was so obliviously shitty?

Truly halcyon days. I’m still somewhat confused as to why Billy has very similar complaints about you though…
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12559 Posts
September 20 2025 18:39 GMT
#6602
I personally have never thought about any of you while in the shower
No will to live, no wish to die
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27456 Posts
September 20 2025 23:37 GMT
#6603
On September 21 2025 03:39 Nebuchad wrote:
I personally have never thought about any of you while in the shower

Why the fuck not? :p

As an aside, I don’t think this thread should be one to litigate various interpersonal disagreements, unless there’s stuff one thinks should be actionable that mods have either missed, or one thinks they should clamp down on and alter their approach to.

I’ve given my half a dollar on strawmanning, and I think blatant and consistent application of that fallacy should be actionable, but that’s a general crit of quite a few active posters, it’s not me talking about anyone in particular.

Like if one has a particular problem with an individual poster, mods are available by PM if you think it’s actionable. If not, the ignore option is there.

I’m basically pathologically unable to ignore things that irk me, so the latter isnt super viable for me, but hey!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2462 Posts
September 20 2025 23:56 GMT
#6604
On September 21 2025 00:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
Anyone remember when everyone was sure I was the reason JimmiC's posting was so obliviously shitty?

That is probably just your narcissism talking, I'm sure the people who thought it was shitty thought it was because of him. I hear a lot of reminiscing about the thread while your perma ban was enforced. What a dream it must have been to not have every topic derailed (or attempted to be) by the same bad dems bad post.

On September 21 2025 01:00 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2025 00:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
Anyone remember when everyone was sure I was the reason JimmiC's posting was so obliviously shitty?

Truly halcyon days. I’m still somewhat confused as to why Billy has very similar complaints about you though…

It is not strange to feel the same as most.

On September 21 2025 03:39 Nebuchad wrote:
I personally have never thought about any of you while in the shower

To each their own.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28900 Posts
September 21 2025 06:06 GMT
#6605
Why do you refer to Jimmy as him?
Moderator
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2462 Posts
September 21 2025 14:10 GMT
#6606
On September 21 2025 15:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Why do you refer to Jimmy as him?

I'm fairly certain that JimmyJRaynor identifies as a male so it is the proper pronoun. If he lets me know that he has transitioned, so I have always been wrong then I'd be happy to try my best to not misgender him.
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
1059 Posts
September 24 2025 00:37 GMT
#6607
On September 24 2025 08:10 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2025 07:53 Billyboy wrote:
On September 24 2025 06:14 oBlade wrote:
On September 24 2025 05:00 Luolis wrote:
On September 24 2025 02:54 oBlade wrote:
On September 23 2025 21:10 Billyboy wrote:
In a not shocking but hilarious coincidence Grindr went offline after Charlies Kirks funeral because of giant increase in use. How can this happen with all these manly, straight, anti gay Republicans in town? How mysterious....


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/massive-grindr-outage-reports-coincide-201506319.html

Yes it's funny because you're perpetuating stereotypes from 50 years ago to wrap your prejudice against one group inside your prejudice against another.

The point is the obvious hypocrisy that the party that wants to eliminate LGBTQ+ people from the public really loves gay sex on the down low (for more information, see the stats on red states and watching transgender porn).

You are manufacturing the hypocrisy.
John is a Republican. He thinks gay marriage should be illegal.
Dave is a Republican also. He's gay.

Therefore Dave is a hypocrite because he believes gay marriage should be illegal but he's gay, since he and John are the same person since they're both Republicans.

I have no idea what "eliminate LGBTQ+ people from the public" is supposed to mean. The only LGBTQ+ issue the right cares about is not exposing and transitioning children, and not undoing the existence of women's sports. Those are T. They don't care about adults doing their own thing. Go slightly outside the average and you get active concerns about gay adoption/surrogacy's prevalence. Framing these as "anti-gay" would presuppose your own worldview that society is sure it can handle a certain amount of families that look a certain way without drawbacks. Society isn't sure. For the same reasons that we're suspicious of the practice of polygamy despite not "eliminating" the FLDS from the public - whatever that means.

Your new contribution is founded on yet more dated assumptions. First, that G is related to T. Second, that anybody's private sexuality should be in the public square. It shouldn't. Whether that's a pride parade, flashing tits on the White House lawn, or a Playboy Parade. States watch transgender porn? As long as it's not child porn, and as long as it's not children watching it, nobody cares. You don't care, and they don't care, but because you think they are supposed to care, you care. We may certainly care at a societal level if we end up having too many porn and tiktok addicted imbeciles to run a functioning economy.

They aren't all secretly gay homophobes. And even if they were secretly gay - who are you and what do you know? We should be accepting of gays unless they're closeted? Like a gay man who has a 30 year marriage and fathers children and raises a family doesn't count unless he votes the right way, doesn't go to church, definitely doesn't go to a memorial, but wears all that fetish crap at some parade?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people think this is not just an acceptable thing to say, but some kind of tolerant moral high ground. You need to actually open your mind and not just pretend.

Let me ask differently. You said they "really love" gay sex. Is "really" too much? How many gay Republicans is okay, and how many is too many? Is it an inverse thing? The more gay Republicans there are, the more disapproval they get from some guy in Europe? They need to all fit your stereotype, and never, ever be homosexual because that would transgress your expectations. But oh yeah the straight ones are trash anyway because they're Republicans, right Luolis? Hey, question, what do you think is worse, a gay Republican or a straight Republican?

You can't prove everyone is not a secret gay, so there for they are. Boom, MAGA logic.

On September 24 2025 06:59 WombaT wrote:
On September 24 2025 04:08 Billyboy wrote:
Evangelicals and Charlie Kirk are still extremely anti gay. You're just wrong wombat, he called being gay an “error” and compared the LGBTQ pride movement with encouraging drug addicts.

Most evangelical churches teach that homosexual behavior is sinful, citing passages from Leviticus, Romans, and Corinthians. They typically uphold heterosexual marriage as the only acceptable context for sex.

According to Pew Research (2023), about 29% of white evangelicals say homosexuality should be accepted by society, compared with around 71% of Americans overall.

What’s your point?

I’m wrong because specifically white evangelicals feel a certain way, despite my post not specifically zoning in on that demographic?

Ok. Sure fucking showed me and circumvented the actual point I made. Good job there

Were talking about the people who went to Kirk the funeral which are for the most part MAGA, who a large part are Evangelical. So well you brought your head cannon, I decided to bring polling. You did make a point, it just was not relevant to the discussion, but I guess that is on brand along with missing the point.

In a Monmouth poll, among those who identify as strong MAGA supporters, 60% are evangelical.


Given my initial point was more about general GOP voters, and not you know specifically white evangelicals, your stats on white evangelicals sure showed me!

Believe it or not, many mainstream GOP voters are totally fine with one being gay, they may be perfectly happy to throw many other marginalised groups under the bus, but that’s basically normalised to such a degree that being gay isn’t really a big deal.

Progress of a sort. ‘Hur hur Republicans use Grindr’ like who gives a fuck? Cool, many of them aren’t even anti gay to begin with. What a political victory! We sure showed em!

It’s not even remotely comparable to like 15-20 years ago.

Also request for a week’s ban please mods. Plox

User was temp banned for this post.


Honestly, why was Wombat banned for this post?

KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44353 Posts
September 24 2025 00:42 GMT
#6608
On September 24 2025 09:37 Razyda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2025 08:10 WombaT wrote:
On September 24 2025 07:53 Billyboy wrote:
On September 24 2025 06:14 oBlade wrote:
On September 24 2025 05:00 Luolis wrote:
On September 24 2025 02:54 oBlade wrote:
On September 23 2025 21:10 Billyboy wrote:
In a not shocking but hilarious coincidence Grindr went offline after Charlies Kirks funeral because of giant increase in use. How can this happen with all these manly, straight, anti gay Republicans in town? How mysterious....


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/massive-grindr-outage-reports-coincide-201506319.html

Yes it's funny because you're perpetuating stereotypes from 50 years ago to wrap your prejudice against one group inside your prejudice against another.

The point is the obvious hypocrisy that the party that wants to eliminate LGBTQ+ people from the public really loves gay sex on the down low (for more information, see the stats on red states and watching transgender porn).

You are manufacturing the hypocrisy.
John is a Republican. He thinks gay marriage should be illegal.
Dave is a Republican also. He's gay.

Therefore Dave is a hypocrite because he believes gay marriage should be illegal but he's gay, since he and John are the same person since they're both Republicans.

I have no idea what "eliminate LGBTQ+ people from the public" is supposed to mean. The only LGBTQ+ issue the right cares about is not exposing and transitioning children, and not undoing the existence of women's sports. Those are T. They don't care about adults doing their own thing. Go slightly outside the average and you get active concerns about gay adoption/surrogacy's prevalence. Framing these as "anti-gay" would presuppose your own worldview that society is sure it can handle a certain amount of families that look a certain way without drawbacks. Society isn't sure. For the same reasons that we're suspicious of the practice of polygamy despite not "eliminating" the FLDS from the public - whatever that means.

Your new contribution is founded on yet more dated assumptions. First, that G is related to T. Second, that anybody's private sexuality should be in the public square. It shouldn't. Whether that's a pride parade, flashing tits on the White House lawn, or a Playboy Parade. States watch transgender porn? As long as it's not child porn, and as long as it's not children watching it, nobody cares. You don't care, and they don't care, but because you think they are supposed to care, you care. We may certainly care at a societal level if we end up having too many porn and tiktok addicted imbeciles to run a functioning economy.

They aren't all secretly gay homophobes. And even if they were secretly gay - who are you and what do you know? We should be accepting of gays unless they're closeted? Like a gay man who has a 30 year marriage and fathers children and raises a family doesn't count unless he votes the right way, doesn't go to church, definitely doesn't go to a memorial, but wears all that fetish crap at some parade?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people think this is not just an acceptable thing to say, but some kind of tolerant moral high ground. You need to actually open your mind and not just pretend.

Let me ask differently. You said they "really love" gay sex. Is "really" too much? How many gay Republicans is okay, and how many is too many? Is it an inverse thing? The more gay Republicans there are, the more disapproval they get from some guy in Europe? They need to all fit your stereotype, and never, ever be homosexual because that would transgress your expectations. But oh yeah the straight ones are trash anyway because they're Republicans, right Luolis? Hey, question, what do you think is worse, a gay Republican or a straight Republican?

You can't prove everyone is not a secret gay, so there for they are. Boom, MAGA logic.

On September 24 2025 06:59 WombaT wrote:
On September 24 2025 04:08 Billyboy wrote:
Evangelicals and Charlie Kirk are still extremely anti gay. You're just wrong wombat, he called being gay an “error” and compared the LGBTQ pride movement with encouraging drug addicts.

Most evangelical churches teach that homosexual behavior is sinful, citing passages from Leviticus, Romans, and Corinthians. They typically uphold heterosexual marriage as the only acceptable context for sex.

According to Pew Research (2023), about 29% of white evangelicals say homosexuality should be accepted by society, compared with around 71% of Americans overall.

What’s your point?

I’m wrong because specifically white evangelicals feel a certain way, despite my post not specifically zoning in on that demographic?

Ok. Sure fucking showed me and circumvented the actual point I made. Good job there

Were talking about the people who went to Kirk the funeral which are for the most part MAGA, who a large part are Evangelical. So well you brought your head cannon, I decided to bring polling. You did make a point, it just was not relevant to the discussion, but I guess that is on brand along with missing the point.

In a Monmouth poll, among those who identify as strong MAGA supporters, 60% are evangelical.


Given my initial point was more about general GOP voters, and not you know specifically white evangelicals, your stats on white evangelicals sure showed me!

Believe it or not, many mainstream GOP voters are totally fine with one being gay, they may be perfectly happy to throw many other marginalised groups under the bus, but that’s basically normalised to such a degree that being gay isn’t really a big deal.

Progress of a sort. ‘Hur hur Republicans use Grindr’ like who gives a fuck? Cool, many of them aren’t even anti gay to begin with. What a political victory! We sure showed em!

It’s not even remotely comparable to like 15-20 years ago.

Also request for a week’s ban please mods. Plox

User was temp banned for this post.


Honestly, why was Wombat banned for this post?


Classic razyda
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
September 24 2025 00:46 GMT
#6609
He can't be expected to read the post that he quoted kwark.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12015 Posts
September 24 2025 04:57 GMT
#6610
On September 24 2025 09:46 Sermokala wrote:
He can't be expected to read the post that he quoted kwark.


To be fair, it is the last sentence, and there are more than two sentences in that post. That is basically an impossible task.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
September 24 2025 07:53 GMT
#6611
On September 24 2025 09:37 Razyda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2025 08:10 WombaT wrote:
On September 24 2025 07:53 Billyboy wrote:
On September 24 2025 06:14 oBlade wrote:
On September 24 2025 05:00 Luolis wrote:
On September 24 2025 02:54 oBlade wrote:
On September 23 2025 21:10 Billyboy wrote:
In a not shocking but hilarious coincidence Grindr went offline after Charlies Kirks funeral because of giant increase in use. How can this happen with all these manly, straight, anti gay Republicans in town? How mysterious....


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/massive-grindr-outage-reports-coincide-201506319.html

Yes it's funny because you're perpetuating stereotypes from 50 years ago to wrap your prejudice against one group inside your prejudice against another.

The point is the obvious hypocrisy that the party that wants to eliminate LGBTQ+ people from the public really loves gay sex on the down low (for more information, see the stats on red states and watching transgender porn).

You are manufacturing the hypocrisy.
John is a Republican. He thinks gay marriage should be illegal.
Dave is a Republican also. He's gay.

Therefore Dave is a hypocrite because he believes gay marriage should be illegal but he's gay, since he and John are the same person since they're both Republicans.

I have no idea what "eliminate LGBTQ+ people from the public" is supposed to mean. The only LGBTQ+ issue the right cares about is not exposing and transitioning children, and not undoing the existence of women's sports. Those are T. They don't care about adults doing their own thing. Go slightly outside the average and you get active concerns about gay adoption/surrogacy's prevalence. Framing these as "anti-gay" would presuppose your own worldview that society is sure it can handle a certain amount of families that look a certain way without drawbacks. Society isn't sure. For the same reasons that we're suspicious of the practice of polygamy despite not "eliminating" the FLDS from the public - whatever that means.

Your new contribution is founded on yet more dated assumptions. First, that G is related to T. Second, that anybody's private sexuality should be in the public square. It shouldn't. Whether that's a pride parade, flashing tits on the White House lawn, or a Playboy Parade. States watch transgender porn? As long as it's not child porn, and as long as it's not children watching it, nobody cares. You don't care, and they don't care, but because you think they are supposed to care, you care. We may certainly care at a societal level if we end up having too many porn and tiktok addicted imbeciles to run a functioning economy.

They aren't all secretly gay homophobes. And even if they were secretly gay - who are you and what do you know? We should be accepting of gays unless they're closeted? Like a gay man who has a 30 year marriage and fathers children and raises a family doesn't count unless he votes the right way, doesn't go to church, definitely doesn't go to a memorial, but wears all that fetish crap at some parade?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people think this is not just an acceptable thing to say, but some kind of tolerant moral high ground. You need to actually open your mind and not just pretend.

Let me ask differently. You said they "really love" gay sex. Is "really" too much? How many gay Republicans is okay, and how many is too many? Is it an inverse thing? The more gay Republicans there are, the more disapproval they get from some guy in Europe? They need to all fit your stereotype, and never, ever be homosexual because that would transgress your expectations. But oh yeah the straight ones are trash anyway because they're Republicans, right Luolis? Hey, question, what do you think is worse, a gay Republican or a straight Republican?

You can't prove everyone is not a secret gay, so there for they are. Boom, MAGA logic.

On September 24 2025 06:59 WombaT wrote:
On September 24 2025 04:08 Billyboy wrote:
Evangelicals and Charlie Kirk are still extremely anti gay. You're just wrong wombat, he called being gay an “error” and compared the LGBTQ pride movement with encouraging drug addicts.

Most evangelical churches teach that homosexual behavior is sinful, citing passages from Leviticus, Romans, and Corinthians. They typically uphold heterosexual marriage as the only acceptable context for sex.

According to Pew Research (2023), about 29% of white evangelicals say homosexuality should be accepted by society, compared with around 71% of Americans overall.

What’s your point?

I’m wrong because specifically white evangelicals feel a certain way, despite my post not specifically zoning in on that demographic?

Ok. Sure fucking showed me and circumvented the actual point I made. Good job there

Were talking about the people who went to Kirk the funeral which are for the most part MAGA, who a large part are Evangelical. So well you brought your head cannon, I decided to bring polling. You did make a point, it just was not relevant to the discussion, but I guess that is on brand along with missing the point.

In a Monmouth poll, among those who identify as strong MAGA supporters, 60% are evangelical.


Given my initial point was more about general GOP voters, and not you know specifically white evangelicals, your stats on white evangelicals sure showed me!

Believe it or not, many mainstream GOP voters are totally fine with one being gay, they may be perfectly happy to throw many other marginalised groups under the bus, but that’s basically normalised to such a degree that being gay isn’t really a big deal.

Progress of a sort. ‘Hur hur Republicans use Grindr’ like who gives a fuck? Cool, many of them aren’t even anti gay to begin with. What a political victory! We sure showed em!

It’s not even remotely comparable to like 15-20 years ago.

Also request for a week’s ban please mods. Plox

User was temp banned for this post.


Honestly, why was Wombat banned for this post?



Because he ate too many lollipops and needed a timeout for recovery. Or perhaps because he asked for it, but that's just a theory.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
1059 Posts
September 24 2025 12:29 GMT
#6612
On September 24 2025 13:57 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2025 09:46 Sermokala wrote:
He can't be expected to read the post that he quoted kwark.


To be fair, it is the last sentence, and there are more than two sentences in that post. That is basically an impossible task.



Fully deserved.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
September 27 2025 17:00 GMT
#6613
On September 28 2025 01:08 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2025 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:26 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:11 oBlade wrote:
I just opened National Review and the current main page has 4 articles about why charging Comey is wrong, one about why retaking Bagram is wrong, and one vague one about how the fed isn't independent but the more we pretend it's independent the more it actually is which is good.


"Today morning I looked outside the window and I felt the warmth of the sun on my skin. I conclude the whole week, month and year it's always sunny and warm from sunrise to sunset in the whole city, state and country."


I will try one more time to make my point since apparently other people are also confused.

You don't have to like any of the publications I mentioned in that post however many weeks ago. Yes, NR is an self-admitted conservative opinion magazine. My problem is you seem to think, as you said above, that you are very familiar with the American right. But you clearly aren't very familiar with the American right that I am a part of. The results of the little survey oBlade did is actually not that uncommon of an occurrence.

I don't want to sound gatekeeper-ish, because plenty of conservatives don't from NR, but the point is that in most of your posts I find an arrogance and intransigence that is unearned. I've been here for years, I've quoted stuff from conservative outlets but never news (WSJ reporting is famously less Republican than the editorial page). To disagree with my ideas you don't need to start with "well he mentioned National Review once (a publication I never knew existed btw) and now I'm going to start every post about something he says by opening with that and what score it got on my scoring wrbsite." Again, not inspiring confidence that you are not the one who is in fact running the argument backwards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if this post is too meta thread like


I know the American right very well. I used to hang out in the same spaces as people from all kinds of political backgrounds, and it was mainly Americans. It was a free speech space, and all voices from moderate to radical, far-left to far-right, liberal to authoritarian, all of them were tolerated as long as they weren't breaking any laws, doxxing people, posting porn or violent imagery, etc.

The American right has had a heavy presence in such spaces. The discussions ranged from civil to incredibly toxic. For the most part it was right-wingers who dominated the discourse, so I learned a lot about their views.
On occasion I was even invited to their far-right sub-groups, an offer I took up - and quickly regretted due to the insane viewpoints being spread, leading to me leaving that space soon after.

I left the space years ago when I finally had enough and started cleaning up with various false beliefs I had adopted.

You can say what you will about me, but if you think I don't know the American right, you couldn't be much further from the truth. I know them almost intimately. I know what they're willing to say in private, with the exception of law-breaking behavior. I got to know right-wingers who are more hardcore than some KKK members or other white supremacists. Though those were rare.

I got to know white supremacists, traditional conservative Christians, various alt-righters, libertarians, and on the other side one communist, rather few progressives and socialists, and a small number of liberals. The group host was right-wing, which is why not so many left-wingers knew of/joined the space.

I've had discussions with these people for years. I know their arguments inside out. I know viewpoints you've literally never heard of. I know about the backgrounds of these people, as they occasionally gave some insight into their daily lives. I still knew some of them during the early Covid days, which was shortly before I left the space (the pandemic made everyone go extra crazy).

Don't tell me how much I know or don't know. You don't know me.


I won't go too far with this because I think it’s bordering on the feedback thread or needing PMs, but you keep saying this stuff in this thread. I am only drawing these conclusions from your own words in this thread. Your claimed knowledge appears to be belied by the things you actually say. The next time I quote an argument from somewhere you are free to engage with it. In the meantime, starting almost every reply the same way is not conducive esp when it's not relevant. That's all


Of course you would say that, after all we have almost perfectly opposing viewpoints. It's convenient to assert the other person lacks general insight about a topic. I could accuse you of the same thing, but that wouldn't be an argument, it's just bad faith reasoning. Accusing the other person of being largely ill-informed about a topic that they've been participating in for several years is clearly a dishonest tactic and it leads nowhere. Exceptions where a bad faith assumption like that can be useful are rather rare, especially in a thread such as this one.

Simply stick to the information you do have, not the information you don't have. Stick to arguing against the argument, not against the person -. unless you can concretely connect background knowledge about the person to their argumentation (without doxxing them of course). oBlade tried the bad faith route and failed, then you tried it and it still doesn't work. It only makes me view your argumentation as lacking, because it's reasonable to assume that if people resort to accusing the person behind the argument, it's because they ran out of arguments themselves. This may not be always true, but broadly speaking it's a fair assumption.

PS: if you think your post belongs in the feedback thread, then perhaps it'd make sense to post it here next time. I'm subscribed here, I will read it. Otherwise you can notify me with a DM.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
September 27 2025 18:25 GMT
#6614
On September 28 2025 02:00 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2025 01:08 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:26 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:11 oBlade wrote:
I just opened National Review and the current main page has 4 articles about why charging Comey is wrong, one about why retaking Bagram is wrong, and one vague one about how the fed isn't independent but the more we pretend it's independent the more it actually is which is good.


"Today morning I looked outside the window and I felt the warmth of the sun on my skin. I conclude the whole week, month and year it's always sunny and warm from sunrise to sunset in the whole city, state and country."


I will try one more time to make my point since apparently other people are also confused.

You don't have to like any of the publications I mentioned in that post however many weeks ago. Yes, NR is an self-admitted conservative opinion magazine. My problem is you seem to think, as you said above, that you are very familiar with the American right. But you clearly aren't very familiar with the American right that I am a part of. The results of the little survey oBlade did is actually not that uncommon of an occurrence.

I don't want to sound gatekeeper-ish, because plenty of conservatives don't from NR, but the point is that in most of your posts I find an arrogance and intransigence that is unearned. I've been here for years, I've quoted stuff from conservative outlets but never news (WSJ reporting is famously less Republican than the editorial page). To disagree with my ideas you don't need to start with "well he mentioned National Review once (a publication I never knew existed btw) and now I'm going to start every post about something he says by opening with that and what score it got on my scoring wrbsite." Again, not inspiring confidence that you are not the one who is in fact running the argument backwards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if this post is too meta thread like


I know the American right very well. I used to hang out in the same spaces as people from all kinds of political backgrounds, and it was mainly Americans. It was a free speech space, and all voices from moderate to radical, far-left to far-right, liberal to authoritarian, all of them were tolerated as long as they weren't breaking any laws, doxxing people, posting porn or violent imagery, etc.

The American right has had a heavy presence in such spaces. The discussions ranged from civil to incredibly toxic. For the most part it was right-wingers who dominated the discourse, so I learned a lot about their views.
On occasion I was even invited to their far-right sub-groups, an offer I took up - and quickly regretted due to the insane viewpoints being spread, leading to me leaving that space soon after.

I left the space years ago when I finally had enough and started cleaning up with various false beliefs I had adopted.

You can say what you will about me, but if you think I don't know the American right, you couldn't be much further from the truth. I know them almost intimately. I know what they're willing to say in private, with the exception of law-breaking behavior. I got to know right-wingers who are more hardcore than some KKK members or other white supremacists. Though those were rare.

I got to know white supremacists, traditional conservative Christians, various alt-righters, libertarians, and on the other side one communist, rather few progressives and socialists, and a small number of liberals. The group host was right-wing, which is why not so many left-wingers knew of/joined the space.

I've had discussions with these people for years. I know their arguments inside out. I know viewpoints you've literally never heard of. I know about the backgrounds of these people, as they occasionally gave some insight into their daily lives. I still knew some of them during the early Covid days, which was shortly before I left the space (the pandemic made everyone go extra crazy).

Don't tell me how much I know or don't know. You don't know me.


I won't go too far with this because I think it’s bordering on the feedback thread or needing PMs, but you keep saying this stuff in this thread. I am only drawing these conclusions from your own words in this thread. Your claimed knowledge appears to be belied by the things you actually say. The next time I quote an argument from somewhere you are free to engage with it. In the meantime, starting almost every reply the same way is not conducive esp when it's not relevant. That's all


Of course you would say that, after all we have almost perfectly opposing viewpoints. It's convenient to assert the other person lacks general insight about a topic. I could accuse you of the same thing, but that wouldn't be an argument, it's just bad faith reasoning. Accusing the other person of being largely ill-informed about a topic that they've been participating in for several years is clearly a dishonest tactic and it leads nowhere. Exceptions where a bad faith assumption like that can be useful are rather rare, especially in a thread such as this one.

Simply stick to the information you do have, not the information you don't have. Stick to arguing against the argument, not against the person -. unless you can concretely connect background knowledge about the person to their argumentation (without doxxing them of course). oBlade tried the bad faith route and failed, then you tried it and it still doesn't work. It only makes me view your argumentation as lacking, because it's reasonable to assume that if people resort to accusing the person behind the argument, it's because they ran out of arguments themselves. This may not be always true, but broadly speaking it's a fair assumption.

PS: if you think your post belongs in the feedback thread, then perhaps it'd make sense to post it here next time. I'm subscribed here, I will read it. Otherwise you can notify me with a DM.


You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago. I didn't even quote from them in those posts! The basis of your critique isn't even from a passing familiarity with the subject (which, to reiterate, *you* keep bringing up), it's based on the rating of a website you trust. You have used that to downplay or attack what I'm saying before you even get to what I actually say. How is that not "arguing against the person"? When oBlade provided a contrasting view you immediately dismissed it as an anomaly. To be frank with you, what i mostly see from you is an attempt at a takedown with some stuff thrown in to make it look like it's an intellectual argument.

It's especially rediculous because when I do quote news stories for factual information, it is never from those websites, it is always from some place like WSJ, NYT, WP, LAT, and Politico. Partially that's because msny right-of-center outlets focus more on commentary than news. But also because I know what would happen were I to quote news from one of those places. I read more "facts" from outlets that are decidedly left of center than the reverse and yet here you are still going on about it. You are getting very far ahead of yourself.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-09-27 18:39:02
September 27 2025 18:38 GMT
#6615
On September 28 2025 03:25 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2025 02:00 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 28 2025 01:08 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:26 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:11 oBlade wrote:
I just opened National Review and the current main page has 4 articles about why charging Comey is wrong, one about why retaking Bagram is wrong, and one vague one about how the fed isn't independent but the more we pretend it's independent the more it actually is which is good.


"Today morning I looked outside the window and I felt the warmth of the sun on my skin. I conclude the whole week, month and year it's always sunny and warm from sunrise to sunset in the whole city, state and country."


I will try one more time to make my point since apparently other people are also confused.

You don't have to like any of the publications I mentioned in that post however many weeks ago. Yes, NR is an self-admitted conservative opinion magazine. My problem is you seem to think, as you said above, that you are very familiar with the American right. But you clearly aren't very familiar with the American right that I am a part of. The results of the little survey oBlade did is actually not that uncommon of an occurrence.

I don't want to sound gatekeeper-ish, because plenty of conservatives don't from NR, but the point is that in most of your posts I find an arrogance and intransigence that is unearned. I've been here for years, I've quoted stuff from conservative outlets but never news (WSJ reporting is famously less Republican than the editorial page). To disagree with my ideas you don't need to start with "well he mentioned National Review once (a publication I never knew existed btw) and now I'm going to start every post about something he says by opening with that and what score it got on my scoring wrbsite." Again, not inspiring confidence that you are not the one who is in fact running the argument backwards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if this post is too meta thread like


I know the American right very well. I used to hang out in the same spaces as people from all kinds of political backgrounds, and it was mainly Americans. It was a free speech space, and all voices from moderate to radical, far-left to far-right, liberal to authoritarian, all of them were tolerated as long as they weren't breaking any laws, doxxing people, posting porn or violent imagery, etc.

The American right has had a heavy presence in such spaces. The discussions ranged from civil to incredibly toxic. For the most part it was right-wingers who dominated the discourse, so I learned a lot about their views.
On occasion I was even invited to their far-right sub-groups, an offer I took up - and quickly regretted due to the insane viewpoints being spread, leading to me leaving that space soon after.

I left the space years ago when I finally had enough and started cleaning up with various false beliefs I had adopted.

You can say what you will about me, but if you think I don't know the American right, you couldn't be much further from the truth. I know them almost intimately. I know what they're willing to say in private, with the exception of law-breaking behavior. I got to know right-wingers who are more hardcore than some KKK members or other white supremacists. Though those were rare.

I got to know white supremacists, traditional conservative Christians, various alt-righters, libertarians, and on the other side one communist, rather few progressives and socialists, and a small number of liberals. The group host was right-wing, which is why not so many left-wingers knew of/joined the space.

I've had discussions with these people for years. I know their arguments inside out. I know viewpoints you've literally never heard of. I know about the backgrounds of these people, as they occasionally gave some insight into their daily lives. I still knew some of them during the early Covid days, which was shortly before I left the space (the pandemic made everyone go extra crazy).

Don't tell me how much I know or don't know. You don't know me.


I won't go too far with this because I think it’s bordering on the feedback thread or needing PMs, but you keep saying this stuff in this thread. I am only drawing these conclusions from your own words in this thread. Your claimed knowledge appears to be belied by the things you actually say. The next time I quote an argument from somewhere you are free to engage with it. In the meantime, starting almost every reply the same way is not conducive esp when it's not relevant. That's all


Of course you would say that, after all we have almost perfectly opposing viewpoints. It's convenient to assert the other person lacks general insight about a topic. I could accuse you of the same thing, but that wouldn't be an argument, it's just bad faith reasoning. Accusing the other person of being largely ill-informed about a topic that they've been participating in for several years is clearly a dishonest tactic and it leads nowhere. Exceptions where a bad faith assumption like that can be useful are rather rare, especially in a thread such as this one.

Simply stick to the information you do have, not the information you don't have. Stick to arguing against the argument, not against the person -. unless you can concretely connect background knowledge about the person to their argumentation (without doxxing them of course). oBlade tried the bad faith route and failed, then you tried it and it still doesn't work. It only makes me view your argumentation as lacking, because it's reasonable to assume that if people resort to accusing the person behind the argument, it's because they ran out of arguments themselves. This may not be always true, but broadly speaking it's a fair assumption.

PS: if you think your post belongs in the feedback thread, then perhaps it'd make sense to post it here next time. I'm subscribed here, I will read it. Otherwise you can notify me with a DM.


You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago. I didn't even quote from them in those posts! The basis of your critique isn't even from a passing familiarity with the subject (which, to reiterate, *you* keep bringing up), it's based on the rating of a website you trust. You have used that to downplay or attack what I'm saying before you even get to what I actually say. How is that not "arguing against the person"? When oBlade provided a contrasting view you immediately dismissed it as an anomaly. To be frank with you, what i mostly see from you is an attempt at a takedown with some stuff thrown in to make it look like it's an intellectual argument.

It's especially rediculous because when I do quote news stories for factual information, it is never from those websites, it is always from some place like WSJ, NYT, WP, LAT, and Politico. Partially that's because msny right-of-center outlets focus more on commentary than news. But also because I know what would happen were I to quote news from one of those places. I read more "facts" from outlets that are decidedly left of center than the reverse and yet here you are still going on about it. You are getting very far ahead of yourself.


May I ask for a small sample of that "huge percentage" of those posts of mine? Perhaps three or four? If they represent a "huge percentage", they shouldn't be hard to find.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
September 27 2025 19:24 GMT
#6616
On September 28 2025 03:38 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2025 03:25 Introvert wrote:
On September 28 2025 02:00 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 28 2025 01:08 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:26 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:11 oBlade wrote:
I just opened National Review and the current main page has 4 articles about why charging Comey is wrong, one about why retaking Bagram is wrong, and one vague one about how the fed isn't independent but the more we pretend it's independent the more it actually is which is good.


"Today morning I looked outside the window and I felt the warmth of the sun on my skin. I conclude the whole week, month and year it's always sunny and warm from sunrise to sunset in the whole city, state and country."


I will try one more time to make my point since apparently other people are also confused.

You don't have to like any of the publications I mentioned in that post however many weeks ago. Yes, NR is an self-admitted conservative opinion magazine. My problem is you seem to think, as you said above, that you are very familiar with the American right. But you clearly aren't very familiar with the American right that I am a part of. The results of the little survey oBlade did is actually not that uncommon of an occurrence.

I don't want to sound gatekeeper-ish, because plenty of conservatives don't from NR, but the point is that in most of your posts I find an arrogance and intransigence that is unearned. I've been here for years, I've quoted stuff from conservative outlets but never news (WSJ reporting is famously less Republican than the editorial page). To disagree with my ideas you don't need to start with "well he mentioned National Review once (a publication I never knew existed btw) and now I'm going to start every post about something he says by opening with that and what score it got on my scoring wrbsite." Again, not inspiring confidence that you are not the one who is in fact running the argument backwards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if this post is too meta thread like


I know the American right very well. I used to hang out in the same spaces as people from all kinds of political backgrounds, and it was mainly Americans. It was a free speech space, and all voices from moderate to radical, far-left to far-right, liberal to authoritarian, all of them were tolerated as long as they weren't breaking any laws, doxxing people, posting porn or violent imagery, etc.

The American right has had a heavy presence in such spaces. The discussions ranged from civil to incredibly toxic. For the most part it was right-wingers who dominated the discourse, so I learned a lot about their views.
On occasion I was even invited to their far-right sub-groups, an offer I took up - and quickly regretted due to the insane viewpoints being spread, leading to me leaving that space soon after.

I left the space years ago when I finally had enough and started cleaning up with various false beliefs I had adopted.

You can say what you will about me, but if you think I don't know the American right, you couldn't be much further from the truth. I know them almost intimately. I know what they're willing to say in private, with the exception of law-breaking behavior. I got to know right-wingers who are more hardcore than some KKK members or other white supremacists. Though those were rare.

I got to know white supremacists, traditional conservative Christians, various alt-righters, libertarians, and on the other side one communist, rather few progressives and socialists, and a small number of liberals. The group host was right-wing, which is why not so many left-wingers knew of/joined the space.

I've had discussions with these people for years. I know their arguments inside out. I know viewpoints you've literally never heard of. I know about the backgrounds of these people, as they occasionally gave some insight into their daily lives. I still knew some of them during the early Covid days, which was shortly before I left the space (the pandemic made everyone go extra crazy).

Don't tell me how much I know or don't know. You don't know me.


I won't go too far with this because I think it’s bordering on the feedback thread or needing PMs, but you keep saying this stuff in this thread. I am only drawing these conclusions from your own words in this thread. Your claimed knowledge appears to be belied by the things you actually say. The next time I quote an argument from somewhere you are free to engage with it. In the meantime, starting almost every reply the same way is not conducive esp when it's not relevant. That's all


Of course you would say that, after all we have almost perfectly opposing viewpoints. It's convenient to assert the other person lacks general insight about a topic. I could accuse you of the same thing, but that wouldn't be an argument, it's just bad faith reasoning. Accusing the other person of being largely ill-informed about a topic that they've been participating in for several years is clearly a dishonest tactic and it leads nowhere. Exceptions where a bad faith assumption like that can be useful are rather rare, especially in a thread such as this one.

Simply stick to the information you do have, not the information you don't have. Stick to arguing against the argument, not against the person -. unless you can concretely connect background knowledge about the person to their argumentation (without doxxing them of course). oBlade tried the bad faith route and failed, then you tried it and it still doesn't work. It only makes me view your argumentation as lacking, because it's reasonable to assume that if people resort to accusing the person behind the argument, it's because they ran out of arguments themselves. This may not be always true, but broadly speaking it's a fair assumption.

PS: if you think your post belongs in the feedback thread, then perhaps it'd make sense to post it here next time. I'm subscribed here, I will read it. Otherwise you can notify me with a DM.


You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago. I didn't even quote from them in those posts! The basis of your critique isn't even from a passing familiarity with the subject (which, to reiterate, *you* keep bringing up), it's based on the rating of a website you trust. You have used that to downplay or attack what I'm saying before you even get to what I actually say. How is that not "arguing against the person"? When oBlade provided a contrasting view you immediately dismissed it as an anomaly. To be frank with you, what i mostly see from you is an attempt at a takedown with some stuff thrown in to make it look like it's an intellectual argument.

It's especially rediculous because when I do quote news stories for factual information, it is never from those websites, it is always from some place like WSJ, NYT, WP, LAT, and Politico. Partially that's because msny right-of-center outlets focus more on commentary than news. But also because I know what would happen were I to quote news from one of those places. I read more "facts" from outlets that are decidedly left of center than the reverse and yet here you are still going on about it. You are getting very far ahead of yourself.


May I ask for a small sample of that "huge percentage" of those posts of mine? Perhaps three or four? If they represent a "huge percentage", they shouldn't be hard to find.


If you are willing to say even three or four times is that not a lot? Considering I only brought it up the one time when asked?

I mean look at this.

On September 27 2025 16:35 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:

On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:

I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.


Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"?

Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation.

Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace.


Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much.

There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes.


I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America.


Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol.

That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true.

But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking.

So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things.

My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol

Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok.


Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now.

You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better.

But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former.


ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course.



We already know that you consider far-right publications "right-of-center", so I hope you excuse me for laughing out loud while you describe "right-of-center" ideas as those being presented in movies/TV etc. in your argument about left-wingers not being tolerant of/knowledgeable about right-wing (read: far-right) ideas.

You're crafting an argument on a basis of pure assumptions. You're still assuming a biased conclusion before fabricating a premise to fit the conclusion. If you stopped doing that, we could take you seriously.


"Engage with my argument." yeah I'd love to if you made one. It came out of nowhere, addressed only a single phrase (not even a complete sentence!) and dismissed what I saying out of hand at the start. I don't need to trawl the last three months of posts and the very many responses I get, it's right here.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
September 27 2025 19:45 GMT
#6617
On September 28 2025 04:24 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2025 03:38 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 28 2025 03:25 Introvert wrote:
On September 28 2025 02:00 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 28 2025 01:08 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:26 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:11 oBlade wrote:
I just opened National Review and the current main page has 4 articles about why charging Comey is wrong, one about why retaking Bagram is wrong, and one vague one about how the fed isn't independent but the more we pretend it's independent the more it actually is which is good.


"Today morning I looked outside the window and I felt the warmth of the sun on my skin. I conclude the whole week, month and year it's always sunny and warm from sunrise to sunset in the whole city, state and country."


I will try one more time to make my point since apparently other people are also confused.

You don't have to like any of the publications I mentioned in that post however many weeks ago. Yes, NR is an self-admitted conservative opinion magazine. My problem is you seem to think, as you said above, that you are very familiar with the American right. But you clearly aren't very familiar with the American right that I am a part of. The results of the little survey oBlade did is actually not that uncommon of an occurrence.

I don't want to sound gatekeeper-ish, because plenty of conservatives don't from NR, but the point is that in most of your posts I find an arrogance and intransigence that is unearned. I've been here for years, I've quoted stuff from conservative outlets but never news (WSJ reporting is famously less Republican than the editorial page). To disagree with my ideas you don't need to start with "well he mentioned National Review once (a publication I never knew existed btw) and now I'm going to start every post about something he says by opening with that and what score it got on my scoring wrbsite." Again, not inspiring confidence that you are not the one who is in fact running the argument backwards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if this post is too meta thread like


I know the American right very well. I used to hang out in the same spaces as people from all kinds of political backgrounds, and it was mainly Americans. It was a free speech space, and all voices from moderate to radical, far-left to far-right, liberal to authoritarian, all of them were tolerated as long as they weren't breaking any laws, doxxing people, posting porn or violent imagery, etc.

The American right has had a heavy presence in such spaces. The discussions ranged from civil to incredibly toxic. For the most part it was right-wingers who dominated the discourse, so I learned a lot about their views.
On occasion I was even invited to their far-right sub-groups, an offer I took up - and quickly regretted due to the insane viewpoints being spread, leading to me leaving that space soon after.

I left the space years ago when I finally had enough and started cleaning up with various false beliefs I had adopted.

You can say what you will about me, but if you think I don't know the American right, you couldn't be much further from the truth. I know them almost intimately. I know what they're willing to say in private, with the exception of law-breaking behavior. I got to know right-wingers who are more hardcore than some KKK members or other white supremacists. Though those were rare.

I got to know white supremacists, traditional conservative Christians, various alt-righters, libertarians, and on the other side one communist, rather few progressives and socialists, and a small number of liberals. The group host was right-wing, which is why not so many left-wingers knew of/joined the space.

I've had discussions with these people for years. I know their arguments inside out. I know viewpoints you've literally never heard of. I know about the backgrounds of these people, as they occasionally gave some insight into their daily lives. I still knew some of them during the early Covid days, which was shortly before I left the space (the pandemic made everyone go extra crazy).

Don't tell me how much I know or don't know. You don't know me.


I won't go too far with this because I think it’s bordering on the feedback thread or needing PMs, but you keep saying this stuff in this thread. I am only drawing these conclusions from your own words in this thread. Your claimed knowledge appears to be belied by the things you actually say. The next time I quote an argument from somewhere you are free to engage with it. In the meantime, starting almost every reply the same way is not conducive esp when it's not relevant. That's all


Of course you would say that, after all we have almost perfectly opposing viewpoints. It's convenient to assert the other person lacks general insight about a topic. I could accuse you of the same thing, but that wouldn't be an argument, it's just bad faith reasoning. Accusing the other person of being largely ill-informed about a topic that they've been participating in for several years is clearly a dishonest tactic and it leads nowhere. Exceptions where a bad faith assumption like that can be useful are rather rare, especially in a thread such as this one.

Simply stick to the information you do have, not the information you don't have. Stick to arguing against the argument, not against the person -. unless you can concretely connect background knowledge about the person to their argumentation (without doxxing them of course). oBlade tried the bad faith route and failed, then you tried it and it still doesn't work. It only makes me view your argumentation as lacking, because it's reasonable to assume that if people resort to accusing the person behind the argument, it's because they ran out of arguments themselves. This may not be always true, but broadly speaking it's a fair assumption.

PS: if you think your post belongs in the feedback thread, then perhaps it'd make sense to post it here next time. I'm subscribed here, I will read it. Otherwise you can notify me with a DM.


You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago. I didn't even quote from them in those posts! The basis of your critique isn't even from a passing familiarity with the subject (which, to reiterate, *you* keep bringing up), it's based on the rating of a website you trust. You have used that to downplay or attack what I'm saying before you even get to what I actually say. How is that not "arguing against the person"? When oBlade provided a contrasting view you immediately dismissed it as an anomaly. To be frank with you, what i mostly see from you is an attempt at a takedown with some stuff thrown in to make it look like it's an intellectual argument.

It's especially rediculous because when I do quote news stories for factual information, it is never from those websites, it is always from some place like WSJ, NYT, WP, LAT, and Politico. Partially that's because msny right-of-center outlets focus more on commentary than news. But also because I know what would happen were I to quote news from one of those places. I read more "facts" from outlets that are decidedly left of center than the reverse and yet here you are still going on about it. You are getting very far ahead of yourself.


May I ask for a small sample of that "huge percentage" of those posts of mine? Perhaps three or four? If they represent a "huge percentage", they shouldn't be hard to find.


If you are willing to say even three or four times is that not a lot? Considering I only brought it up the one time when asked?

I mean look at this.

Show nested quote +
On September 27 2025 16:35 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:

On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:

I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.


Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"?

Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation.

Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace.


Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much.

There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes.


I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America.


Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol.

That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true.

But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking.

So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things.

My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol

Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok.


Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now.

You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better.

But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former.


ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course.



We already know that you consider far-right publications "right-of-center", so I hope you excuse me for laughing out loud while you describe "right-of-center" ideas as those being presented in movies/TV etc. in your argument about left-wingers not being tolerant of/knowledgeable about right-wing (read: far-right) ideas.

You're crafting an argument on a basis of pure assumptions. You're still assuming a biased conclusion before fabricating a premise to fit the conclusion. If you stopped doing that, we could take you seriously.


"Engage with my argument." yeah I'd love to if you made one. It came out of nowhere, addressed only a single phrase (not even a complete sentence!) and dismissed what I saying out of hand at the start. I don't need to trawl the last three months of posts and the very many responses I get, it's right here.


Ok, so you found one very recent example. In fact basically from today. But it's a start. So lets take a closer look at it, shall we?

In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically).


The above is your quote, and it includes the phrase "right-of-center ideas". The context of that phrase is as follows (also your quote):

From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media.


Your argument goes that it is possible to not come across "very conservative viewpoints" (articulated well and defended systematically). And that argument resulted from the original debate about a claim that left-wingers have less of an understanding of right-wing views than vica versa. You appear to support that claim.

Ok, so with the full context it is you, not me, who brings up the phrase "right-of-center ideas". That was your doing.

So I may ask: am I unjustified in re-using your own phrase you've used right here to refer to a previous post you've made weeks/months ago using almost word-for-word the exact same phrase, one which at the time I used to highlight your conflation of three far-right propaganda outlets with "right-of-center publications" (as per your own words), so as to now once again highlight that conflation from back then to formulate my argument that you're now using the same conflation to argue in favor of left-wingers being less knowledgeable about right-wing views than vica versa?

Sorry, that was a very long-winded sentence of a question.

Let me rephrase: can I use your own words against you? Are you within your right to tell me to stop using your own words to argue against your case? And, is me using your own use of words against your case what you meant with when you said, and I quote: "You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago." ?
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-09-27 21:04:10
September 27 2025 20:51 GMT
#6618
On September 28 2025 04:45 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2025 04:24 Introvert wrote:
On September 28 2025 03:38 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 28 2025 03:25 Introvert wrote:
On September 28 2025 02:00 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 28 2025 01:08 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 23:26 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 20:11 oBlade wrote:
I just opened National Review and the current main page has 4 articles about why charging Comey is wrong, one about why retaking Bagram is wrong, and one vague one about how the fed isn't independent but the more we pretend it's independent the more it actually is which is good.


"Today morning I looked outside the window and I felt the warmth of the sun on my skin. I conclude the whole week, month and year it's always sunny and warm from sunrise to sunset in the whole city, state and country."


I will try one more time to make my point since apparently other people are also confused.

You don't have to like any of the publications I mentioned in that post however many weeks ago. Yes, NR is an self-admitted conservative opinion magazine. My problem is you seem to think, as you said above, that you are very familiar with the American right. But you clearly aren't very familiar with the American right that I am a part of. The results of the little survey oBlade did is actually not that uncommon of an occurrence.

I don't want to sound gatekeeper-ish, because plenty of conservatives don't from NR, but the point is that in most of your posts I find an arrogance and intransigence that is unearned. I've been here for years, I've quoted stuff from conservative outlets but never news (WSJ reporting is famously less Republican than the editorial page). To disagree with my ideas you don't need to start with "well he mentioned National Review once (a publication I never knew existed btw) and now I'm going to start every post about something he says by opening with that and what score it got on my scoring wrbsite." Again, not inspiring confidence that you are not the one who is in fact running the argument backwards.

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry if this post is too meta thread like


I know the American right very well. I used to hang out in the same spaces as people from all kinds of political backgrounds, and it was mainly Americans. It was a free speech space, and all voices from moderate to radical, far-left to far-right, liberal to authoritarian, all of them were tolerated as long as they weren't breaking any laws, doxxing people, posting porn or violent imagery, etc.

The American right has had a heavy presence in such spaces. The discussions ranged from civil to incredibly toxic. For the most part it was right-wingers who dominated the discourse, so I learned a lot about their views.
On occasion I was even invited to their far-right sub-groups, an offer I took up - and quickly regretted due to the insane viewpoints being spread, leading to me leaving that space soon after.

I left the space years ago when I finally had enough and started cleaning up with various false beliefs I had adopted.

You can say what you will about me, but if you think I don't know the American right, you couldn't be much further from the truth. I know them almost intimately. I know what they're willing to say in private, with the exception of law-breaking behavior. I got to know right-wingers who are more hardcore than some KKK members or other white supremacists. Though those were rare.

I got to know white supremacists, traditional conservative Christians, various alt-righters, libertarians, and on the other side one communist, rather few progressives and socialists, and a small number of liberals. The group host was right-wing, which is why not so many left-wingers knew of/joined the space.

I've had discussions with these people for years. I know their arguments inside out. I know viewpoints you've literally never heard of. I know about the backgrounds of these people, as they occasionally gave some insight into their daily lives. I still knew some of them during the early Covid days, which was shortly before I left the space (the pandemic made everyone go extra crazy).

Don't tell me how much I know or don't know. You don't know me.


I won't go too far with this because I think it’s bordering on the feedback thread or needing PMs, but you keep saying this stuff in this thread. I am only drawing these conclusions from your own words in this thread. Your claimed knowledge appears to be belied by the things you actually say. The next time I quote an argument from somewhere you are free to engage with it. In the meantime, starting almost every reply the same way is not conducive esp when it's not relevant. That's all


Of course you would say that, after all we have almost perfectly opposing viewpoints. It's convenient to assert the other person lacks general insight about a topic. I could accuse you of the same thing, but that wouldn't be an argument, it's just bad faith reasoning. Accusing the other person of being largely ill-informed about a topic that they've been participating in for several years is clearly a dishonest tactic and it leads nowhere. Exceptions where a bad faith assumption like that can be useful are rather rare, especially in a thread such as this one.

Simply stick to the information you do have, not the information you don't have. Stick to arguing against the argument, not against the person -. unless you can concretely connect background knowledge about the person to their argumentation (without doxxing them of course). oBlade tried the bad faith route and failed, then you tried it and it still doesn't work. It only makes me view your argumentation as lacking, because it's reasonable to assume that if people resort to accusing the person behind the argument, it's because they ran out of arguments themselves. This may not be always true, but broadly speaking it's a fair assumption.

PS: if you think your post belongs in the feedback thread, then perhaps it'd make sense to post it here next time. I'm subscribed here, I will read it. Otherwise you can notify me with a DM.


You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago. I didn't even quote from them in those posts! The basis of your critique isn't even from a passing familiarity with the subject (which, to reiterate, *you* keep bringing up), it's based on the rating of a website you trust. You have used that to downplay or attack what I'm saying before you even get to what I actually say. How is that not "arguing against the person"? When oBlade provided a contrasting view you immediately dismissed it as an anomaly. To be frank with you, what i mostly see from you is an attempt at a takedown with some stuff thrown in to make it look like it's an intellectual argument.

It's especially rediculous because when I do quote news stories for factual information, it is never from those websites, it is always from some place like WSJ, NYT, WP, LAT, and Politico. Partially that's because msny right-of-center outlets focus more on commentary than news. But also because I know what would happen were I to quote news from one of those places. I read more "facts" from outlets that are decidedly left of center than the reverse and yet here you are still going on about it. You are getting very far ahead of yourself.


May I ask for a small sample of that "huge percentage" of those posts of mine? Perhaps three or four? If they represent a "huge percentage", they shouldn't be hard to find.


If you are willing to say even three or four times is that not a lot? Considering I only brought it up the one time when asked?

I mean look at this.

On September 27 2025 16:35 Magic Powers wrote:
On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:
On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:

On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:
On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:

I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.


Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"?

Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation.

Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace.


Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much.

There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes.


I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America.


Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol.

That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true.

But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking.

So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things.

My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol

Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok.


Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now.

You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better.

But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former.


ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course.



We already know that you consider far-right publications "right-of-center", so I hope you excuse me for laughing out loud while you describe "right-of-center" ideas as those being presented in movies/TV etc. in your argument about left-wingers not being tolerant of/knowledgeable about right-wing (read: far-right) ideas.

You're crafting an argument on a basis of pure assumptions. You're still assuming a biased conclusion before fabricating a premise to fit the conclusion. If you stopped doing that, we could take you seriously.


"Engage with my argument." yeah I'd love to if you made one. It came out of nowhere, addressed only a single phrase (not even a complete sentence!) and dismissed what I saying out of hand at the start. I don't need to trawl the last three months of posts and the very many responses I get, it's right here.


Ok, so you found one very recent example. In fact basically from today. But it's a start. So lets take a closer look at it, shall we?

Show nested quote +
In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically).


The above is your quote, and it includes the phrase "right-of-center ideas". The context of that phrase is as follows (also your quote):

Show nested quote +
From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media.


Your argument goes that it is possible to not come across "very conservative viewpoints" (articulated well and defended systematically). And that argument resulted from the original debate about a claim that left-wingers have less of an understanding of right-wing views than vica versa. You appear to support that claim.

Ok, so with the full context it is you, not me, who brings up the phrase "right-of-center ideas". That was your doing.

So I may ask: am I unjustified in re-using your own phrase you've used right here to refer to a previous post you've made weeks/months ago using almost word-for-word the exact same phrase, one which at the time I used to highlight your conflation of three far-right propaganda outlets with "right-of-center publications" (as per your own words), so as to now once again highlight that conflation from back then to formulate my argument that you're now using the same conflation to argue in favor of left-wingers being less knowledgeable about right-wing views than vica versa?

Sorry, that was a very long-winded sentence of a question.

Let me rephrase: can I use your own words against you? Are you within your right to tell me to stop using your own words to argue against your case? And, is me using your own use of words against your case what you meant with when you said, and I quote: "You have started a huge percentage of your posts responding to me by pointing out the the right-wingy-ness of some of the commentary outlets I listed weeks ago." ?


Now we're in danger of having to go back to the main thread again lol.

None of that is responsive the criticism i just gave. Using the phrase "right-of-center" (a common phrase) as your hook back to your hobby horse is a weak line imo

It came out of nowhere, addressed only a single phrase (not even a complete sentence!) and dismissed what I saying out of hand at the start.


To go back to your original question in the thread: yes, i will excuse your laughter, but I don't feel inclined to respond to it.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-09-27 21:48:00
September 27 2025 21:47 GMT
#6619
Do you agree that I used your words against you, and I didn't bring them up unprovoked, yes or no? That's the only question that matters to me. If you agree, good. If not, then I will have to ignore your objection to my "bringing up the past".
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-09-27 22:00:57
September 27 2025 21:59 GMT
#6620
On September 28 2025 06:47 Magic Powers wrote:
Do you agree that I used your words against you, and I didn't bring them up unprovoked, yes or no? That's the only question that matters to me. If you agree, good. If not, then I will have to ignore your objection to my "bringing up the past".


man I feel like this is totally missing the point, but yes I did use the phrase "right-of-center" before in a similar but not identical context, you got me there. You can have that I guess.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Prev 1 329 330 331 332 333 345 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
INu's Battles
20:00
INu's Battles#21
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
IntoTheiNu 906
LiquipediaDiscussion
Sparkling Tuna Cup
19:00
Weekly #149 (SHIN Mod Edition)
ByuN vs KrystianerLIVE!
CranKy Ducklings190
CranKy Ducklings SOOP18
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech33
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 35366
Shuttle 12670
FanTaSy 1642
Hyuk 1122
BeSt 564
Horang2 549
Pusan 370
Mini 311
Stork 247
EffOrt 208
[ Show more ]
Last 148
Killer 142
Zeus 140
Mind 88
Hyun 68
sorry 62
ggaemo 59
Snow 51
Sea.KH 50
PianO 48
ToSsGirL 37
Hm[arnc] 32
Bale 31
Soma 23
Aegong 21
JYJ 19
zelot 16
hero 13
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Sacsri 11
NaDa 10
Noble 8
Dota 2
Dendi753
XcaliburYe361
Counter-Strike
fl0m1998
byalli845
x6flipin539
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu36
Other Games
gofns36207
singsing3010
B2W.Neo884
Hui .139
Livibee101
Mew2King61
ArmadaUGS0
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick667
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream69
[ Show 9 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix9
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
2h 51m
MilkiCow vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
BSL Open Qualifier
6h 51m
BSL Open Qualifier
6h 51m
Replay Cast
10h 51m
Afreeca Starleague
21h 51m
Rush vs Light
WardiTV Weekly
22h 51m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 3h
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 21h
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
1d 22h
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
INu's Battles
3 days
Replay Cast
5 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Copium Cup
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.