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On June 01 2020 06:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not a fan of racism allegations. People don't have the same opinion on what the word racist means aside from it describing a heinous act or person, and aside from some obvious definitions (e.g. thinks black people are genetically inferior and wants to actively discriminate against them due to this fact), it's hard to find a real consensus on what is racist or not. I remember my university class had a collaboration with a university class from Luxembourg where defining racism was our common goal, and even though we were mostly all leftist leaning european youth, we couldn't find any consensus (beyond obvious examples like the one mentioned above). It's always perceived as an insult, but very rarely does the recipient agree, so if one is to make the allegation, it should at least be done in a very thorough manner, because we as individual posters cannot expect others to share all our background knowledge, nor can we expect people we just insulted to be particularly motivated to go increase their wokeness.
However, I think it would be for the best if good sir xxio didn't pretend like he was posting random unrelated facts without context or without making an argument through posting said facts. Obviously he was. If he actually spelled it out, it might not even be that bad of an argument; he responded to a post making the claim that 'hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol.' - an obvious hyperbole, and giving the most charitable interpretation - which is what I think we should go for, if we want to have productive discussions - perhaps he meant to argue that obviously the state cares about black people, otherwise it would not be supplying them with so much welfare. It's a bit like countering 'palestinians are subject to a literal genocide' through stating 'palestinian population numbers keep increasing'. That, imo, is a legitimate counter to the statement that palestinians are subject to a literal genocide - however, if you make that statement without additional information, you should not be surprised to find people interpret your post as a defense of how palestinians are treated. If you didn't mean to issue that defense, then you should write some more, and definitely not argue that 'I'm not making an argument'.
So for me, the issue isn't so much the selective facts posted, as it is the lack of personal opinion and arguments accompanying the facts posted, and in particular the problem is the claim that no argument was made through posting that particular set of facts. Which facts one decides to highlight in an argument is part of an argument.
I value the contribution of different points of view in the thread, and as such, I wish Xxio would chime in with his actual thoughts. As much as I understand that the pile-on is annoying to deal with, this half-hearted contribution isn't helping anything.
You basically said it all. It's kind of exactly what you'd post to a trolly "whole population being killed by the state." I've taken whole 10 week classes in university focusing in on broken windows theory and what you do with communities that don't send their kids to be cops, and cops who come into a situation where the victim is black, the witnesses are black, the suspects are black, and they're white and hispanic. Statistics doesn't do a good job of capturing when cops give up on inner city (black citizens calling the cops on loiterers or gang bangers), and just don't community police, throwing whole neighborhoods to the wolves. It's more complex than people give credit for, and punishing people for citing black-on-black crime or whatever is the wrong way to gain understanding of the dangers and complexity. The complexity stands in contrast for how obvious kneeling on someone's neck after they're handcuffed is wrong and murder or manslaughter.
People always just "knew" that I had secret reasons why I supported or opposed something, apart from what I actually posted from a conservative perspective. I'm already used to these racist or white supremacist allegations for supporting and ultimately voting for Trump after my primary candidate ended his campaign. The next guy that wasn't forged in 2015 or earlier is just going to not post what he thinks about immigration or policing if the best the thread can manage is to call him alt-right or ignorant or something. He needs to know that there is a culture of talking it out, and that mods interfere on clear violations. I haven't seen it with Xxio, but I did see it with the alt-right mod that took off and had such an obnoxious twitter history. Please, have some perspective here.
(I'll add that posting more and chiming in with my actual thoughts did not help me with my first subjective ban in this forum. I responded to almost every person questioning my argument about the Colorado baker, and something about the repetitive nature of question-answer or right-wing perspective brought up a subjective ban. Yep. Just in case you want Xxio to post more, that isn't a sure bet that anyone will even think better of him for doing it. I certainly got zero warning, and maybe the only thing protecting him is infrequently contributing.)
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We circled back to race science in the meanwhile so, hey, guess we weren't too far off on this one.
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While I don't think xxio crossed any lines in this discussion, I think travis did:
On June 01 2020 03:02 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 03:00 Vivax wrote:On June 01 2020 02:52 travis wrote:On June 01 2020 02:48 Vivax wrote:On June 01 2020 02:40 travis wrote:
The reason antifa is being designated a terrorist organization is because they are being funded by George Soros to incite riots as a political weapon. He does this shit regularly, sometimes he even funds both sides of divisive issues.
I have never been a fan of the police, but I do think they have an impossible job right now. Understand that many of these police just want to protect the city and the people in the city, but what is actually happening in these cities is more than just organic rioting. There are some very very dangerous people in some of these cities, and I am sure the police are well aware of that. So.. they have to try to balance not murdering someone with not getting murdered. Soros? Why should he care about this at his age and why don't his funds get frozen if he's behind it. You surely meant Trump is letting this happen so he can do the next power grab. Yes, Soros. Why should he care? Great question, maybe he's the devil. Or maybe he's made a deal with the devil. Why did he care about funding BLM? He basically took over that organization. Is this part of a greater scheme that plays into some kind of power grab for Trump? I hope not but that's beyond the scope of what I can see at least. He already gave himself executive powers for corona. Those are wartime measures. Now he's about to start a war of terror in his own country, more wartime measures. I'm just glad I'm not in the US because you're about to get your own fuhrer imho. I am just curious how you can be so confident this is the case, rather than that he is legitimately ferreting out insurrection? It's my opinion that there is a lot of evidence that an underground war has been occurring for the last 6 months or so.
This kind of conspiracy crazy stuff would get most people a warning, if not a ban. But TL mods are apparently allowed to go Alex Jones on the thread with impunity.
Edit: I wrote the first line of this post before reading xxio's post ripping Reich's words out of the context of genetic and health research (where they are already somewhat controversial) and insert them into a discussion on police committing hate crimes.
At this point, you might as well unban xDaunt.
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On June 01 2020 08:34 Nebuchad wrote:
We circled back to race science in the meanwhile so, hey, guess we weren't too far off on this one.
Sooner or later, everything old is new again.
I miss your posting in the thread, hope you're only on a break.
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General feedback: My skin's plenty thick personally, but I still think it's fucked up to let the "mentally disabled" and "retard/ed" stuff go, even if it being directed at me doesn't bother me personally. That it comes up so close to the race science stuff probably looks worse than it is though.
At this point I think you are either trolling or mentally disabled.
Is something I'm reasonably confident would earn me a ban.
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Norway28921 Posts
Tbh from my perspective me asking him for a source while stating that this is flat earth level is a better way of responding to that than issuing a warning is.
But yes, staff (and team liquid members) get preferential treatment in terms of moderator actions. Veteran posters do too.
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Germany25658 Posts
On June 01 2020 07:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
What's happening with Xxio is what is being displayed by the protesters. Cops (mods) not holding each other accountable. You know what he's doing is wrong but you won't do anything about it. You're effectively just as bad as he is. He's seen this thread and the other and has been asked to clarify his position but he digs right in. It's xDaunt levels of stubbornness.
Anyway, nothing will come of this besides one of us proles being actioned. So I'll drop the topic.
As long as you voice your opinion respectully the chances of any of you being actioned are pretty close to 0.
As for holding each other accountable, this is a pretty complex issue and warrants discussion. Please be patient.
Thanks!
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On June 01 2020 10:22 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 07:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
What's happening with Xxio is what is being displayed by the protesters. Cops (mods) not holding each other accountable. You know what he's doing is wrong but you won't do anything about it. You're effectively just as bad as he is. He's seen this thread and the other and has been asked to clarify his position but he digs right in. It's xDaunt levels of stubbornness.
Anyway, nothing will come of this besides one of us proles being actioned. So I'll drop the topic. As long as you voice your opinion respectully the chances of any of you being actioned are pretty close to 0. As for holding each other accountable, this is a pretty complex issue and warrants discussion. Please be patient. Thanks!
To be a fly on that wall
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On June 01 2020 10:22 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 07:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
What's happening with Xxio is what is being displayed by the protesters. Cops (mods) not holding each other accountable. You know what he's doing is wrong but you won't do anything about it. You're effectively just as bad as he is. He's seen this thread and the other and has been asked to clarify his position but he digs right in. It's xDaunt levels of stubbornness.
Anyway, nothing will come of this besides one of us proles being actioned. So I'll drop the topic. As long as you voice your opinion respectully the chances of any of you being actioned are pretty close to 0. As for holding each other accountable, this is a pretty complex issue and warrants discussion. Please be patient. Thanks!
Thank you for taking time to respond.
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On June 01 2020 10:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 10:22 KadaverBB wrote:On June 01 2020 07:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
What's happening with Xxio is what is being displayed by the protesters. Cops (mods) not holding each other accountable. You know what he's doing is wrong but you won't do anything about it. You're effectively just as bad as he is. He's seen this thread and the other and has been asked to clarify his position but he digs right in. It's xDaunt levels of stubbornness.
Anyway, nothing will come of this besides one of us proles being actioned. So I'll drop the topic. As long as you voice your opinion respectully the chances of any of you being actioned are pretty close to 0. As for holding each other accountable, this is a pretty complex issue and warrants discussion. Please be patient. Thanks! To be a fly on that wall
I'd pay for tickets. Does a TL+ gift count?
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People should never be punished for posting statistics, period. Why instead of trying to silence him we don't educate him about the underlying reasons for why the data is the way it is?
Saying that a disproportionate percentage of homicides are perpetrated by black people is racist if used to deliver the message of "black people inherently violent, black people inherently bad," or it can be used as a powerful piece of evidence for why we should be devoting more support, positive attention, and resources into repairing the communities that suffer from income disparity, for example. Either way, the number is not itself at fault, but the way in which it is used or the way in which it is interpreted.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On June 01 2020 17:30 Jealous wrote:
People should never be punished for posting statistics, period. Why instead of trying to silence him we don't educate him about the underlying reasons for why the data is the way it is?
Saying that a disproportionate percentage of homicides are perpetrated by black people is racist if used to deliver the message of "black people inherently violent, black people inherently bad," or it can be used as a powerful piece of evidence for why we should be devoting more support, positive attention, and resources into repairing the communities that suffer from income disparity, for example. Either way, the number is not itself at fault, but the way in which it is used or the way in which it is interpreted.
If he doesn't have the critical thinking skills to have already thought of that its definitely not a thing worth discussing in the US politics thread.
I get the sentiment, which is why i don't think he should be punished, but having a long discussion about whether black people are inherently criminals or not isn't going to be a useful thing for anyone.
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Thad, Mohdoo, and brian had a rough go of it this last week. Unfortunate.
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On June 01 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2020 17:30 Jealous wrote:
People should never be punished for posting statistics, period. Why instead of trying to silence him we don't educate him about the underlying reasons for why the data is the way it is?
Saying that a disproportionate percentage of homicides are perpetrated by black people is racist if used to deliver the message of "black people inherently violent, black people inherently bad," or it can be used as a powerful piece of evidence for why we should be devoting more support, positive attention, and resources into repairing the communities that suffer from income disparity, for example. Either way, the number is not itself at fault, but the way in which it is used or the way in which it is interpreted. If he doesn't have the critical thinking skills to have already thought of that its definitely not a thing worth discussing in the US politics thread. I get the sentiment, which is why i don't think he should be punished, but having a long discussion about whether black people are inherently criminals or not isn't going to be a useful thing for anyone.
Fwiw, there's a reason folks love trying to use statistics when trying to advocate for eugenics, or otherwise make any similarly racist argument. It lets them do so without outright saying it, it lets them detach from their argument as soon as people catch on to what it is. It gives them a cushion of plausible deniability. "I'm just posting stats" or "I'm just asking questions" has been a super common response from folks on the far right when pressed on shit just like this. Then people explain why it's problematic for the 87th time and, mysteriously, suddenly, the argument goes away.
Not to say that's what's going on here necessarily (I mean, probably), but it's definitely why it left a foul taste in people's mouths.
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Hey All,
I’ve been reviewing this together with a few others and have unanimously agreed that we will part ways with Xxio as a staff member.
I am all for having staff with a variety of backgrounds and opinions and will gladly debate politics with Dutch friends between social and capitalist policies and parties. It sucks because we would love to have intelligent staff from the other political aisle present. However, in the era of Trump, the other political aisle in the U.S. is so radicalized that this is hard to come by.
Reading posts like this one, purposely shared without context, are directly against what I consider the core values TL.net was built upon as well as the larger Team Liquid organization. It is totally fine to have different points of view on a sensitive subject matter such as the riots, but to call people who are oppressed and angry the "worst of society" is not a viewpoint that resonates with our values.
With that in mind we have decided to remove Xxio from staff as he can’t represent the shared values that we believe to be important to have as TL.net staff. We will not be banning Xxio from the website as we don’t think he broke any user rules.
- Victor
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However, in the era of Trump, the other political aisle in the U.S. is so radicalized that this is hard to come by. it predates the era of Trump. Please, take some effort to recruit political diversity in moderators of the general forum. I’ve seen nothing but apathy in my years here. TeamLiquid has a de-facto political bent since the middle of the Obama years, and it manifests itself in uneven handling of reports. I myself was banned as an experiment, and again on subjective posting quality, with no warning and haphazard explanation. Do better for the sake of this community.
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On June 02 2020 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Hey All, I’ve been reviewing this together with a few others and have unanimously agreed that we will part ways with Xxio as a staff member. I am all for having staff with a variety of backgrounds and opinions and will gladly debate politics with Dutch friends between social and capitalist policies and parties. It sucks because we would love to have intelligent staff from the other political aisle present. However, in the era of Trump, the other political aisle in the U.S. is so radicalized that this is hard to come by. Reading posts like this one, purposely shared without context, are directly against what I consider the core values TL.net was built upon as well as the larger Team Liquid organization. It is totally fine to have different points of view on a sensitive subject matter such as the riots, but to call people who are oppressed and angry the "worst of society" is not a viewpoint that resonates with our values. With that in mind we have decided to remove Xxio from staff as he can’t represent the shared values that we believe to be important to have as TL.net staff. We will not be banning Xxio from the website as we don’t think he broke any user rules. - Victor
Thank you for the thorough update. I appreciate your openness and continue to be proud to be a member of TL 
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On June 02 2020 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Hey All, I’ve been reviewing this together with a few others and have unanimously agreed that we will part ways with Xxio as a staff member. I am all for having staff with a variety of backgrounds and opinions and will gladly debate politics with Dutch friends between social and capitalist policies and parties. It sucks because we would love to have intelligent staff from the other political aisle present. However, in the era of Trump, the other political aisle in the U.S. is so radicalized that this is hard to come by. Reading posts like this one, purposely shared without context, are directly against what I consider the core values TL.net was built upon as well as the larger Team Liquid organization. It is totally fine to have different points of view on a sensitive subject matter such as the riots, but to call people who are oppressed and angry the "worst of society" is not a viewpoint that resonates with our values. With that in mind we have decided to remove Xxio from staff as he can’t represent the shared values that we believe to be important to have as TL.net staff. We will not be banning Xxio from the website as we don’t think he broke any user rules. - Victor Thank you for the response
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A fair decision, and I do appreciate the response to illuminate what's happened. While opinions may differ on whether his behavior is ban-worthy, he definitely didn't reflect well on the rest of the staff. If he wants to continue participating like he does, he can go without the privileges and threats.
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Canada5565 Posts
On June 02 2020 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Hey All, I’ve been reviewing this together with a few others and have unanimously agreed that we will part ways with Xxio as a staff member. I am all for having staff with a variety of backgrounds and opinions and will gladly debate politics with Dutch friends between social and capitalist policies and parties. It sucks because we would love to have intelligent staff from the other political aisle present. However, in the era of Trump, the other political aisle in the U.S. is so radicalized that this is hard to come by. Reading posts like this one, purposely shared without context, are directly against what I consider the core values TL.net was built upon as well as the larger Team Liquid organization. It is totally fine to have different points of view on a sensitive subject matter such as the riots, but to call people who are oppressed and angry the "worst of society" is not a viewpoint that resonates with our values. With that in mind we have decided to remove Xxio from staff as he can’t represent the shared values that we believe to be important to have as TL.net staff. We will not be banning Xxio from the website as we don’t think he broke any user rules. - Victor An appropriately safe and morally bankrupt decision. Here is an example of the so-called "oppressed" that I referred to (i.e. violent rioters of any color). But you decided not to discuss your issues honestly. It's sad to see. For the rest of you, be careful about posting raw government data. You never know who it might upset.
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A quick googling suggests the average nipple is 4cm in diameter, which yields about 12.5 square centimeters of surface area. If I did my math right, multiply by the global population and there’s almost 10 square kilometers of nipple in the world.
If you’re wondering “why is ChristianS posting nipple surface area statistics,” the reason you’re wondering that is because people don’t normally cite statistics in a conversation unless they’re trying to make some kind of point. If you don’t explicitly state your point people are left to infer what conclusion you were trying to demonstrate with those statistics.
In the context of a conversation about police brutality against blacks, there’s a lot of very offensive points you could be trying to make by citing welfare and murder rates among blacks. I’ve tried pretty hard to imagine a non-offensive argument someone could be trying to make with those statistics, and I haven’t come up with one. Maybe that’s a lack of imagination on my part, but that’s the risk you run when you force your readers to imagine your point rather than state it yourself.
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EPT
