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On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing.
imo these posts by you and farv and zero are the first sign of "enough is enough" I've observed here in the thread with regard to incremental action against police violence / racism not working and more drastic changes being needed.
This impression mostly stems form the blowback GH is receiving when he's talking / talked about the issue - not specificially from the users mentioned but rather generally in the thread.
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On May 29 2020 21:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. I'm not sure if that is a yes or a no to the first question?
I'm not exactly sure I understand the entirety of the first question (I don't mean to be dodgy or pedantic, but the syntax and grammar have me confused). Your question is "Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here?"
If your question is "Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this [lack of serious consequences to injustice and realizing that responses to this apathy may need to escalate to be taken seriously] is what I've been saying for years", then I'd say yes... you've definitely been saying it for a long time.
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On May 29 2020 21:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. I'm not sure if that is a yes or a no to the first question? I'm not exactly sure I understand the entirety of the first question (I don't mean to be dodgy or pedantic, but the syntax and grammar have me confused). Your question is "Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here?" If your question is "Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this [lack of serious consequences to injustice and realizing that responses to this apathy may need to escalate to be taken seriously] is what I've been saying for years", then I'd say yes... you've definitely been saying it for a long time. What GH is fishing for is that because people understand the riots happening over this police murder we should also be on board with his violent revolution to change the political system..
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On May 29 2020 21:42 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. imo these posts by you and farv and zero are the first sign of "enough is enough" I've observed here in the thread with regard to incremental action against police violence / racism not working and more drastic changes being needed. This impression mostly stems form the blowback GH is receiving when he's talking / talked about the issue - not specificially from the users mentioned but rather generally in the thread.
I think a lot of us has been saying "enough is enough" for quite some time. It's just that the methods vary wildly between a few of us. I'm more of "let's not ruin the community we live in but yes, go get that justice" while some are more of the "burn everything to the ground because democracy has failed us too many times".
I'm not in it for the sake of violence alone. Is a revolution necessary? Perhaps. Does it need to be violent to get results? No. Will it possibly come to that? Perhaps. Are there other avenues that can be taken to get said results without violence, inciting violence, or resorting to leftist-anarchism? Undoubtedly.
Method is the issue I have with some people.
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On May 29 2020 21:37 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. The first four are issues of time. The rest are issues of indifference of the bystanders and people with the "authority/power" to make the changes.
That's fair, although I don't know what else the bystanders could have done without putting their own lives in danger.
On May 29 2020 21:41 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Riots aren't a 2020 invention. Are you sure that whatever framework you're using to say those things don't work doesn't also conclude that rioting doesn't work either?
That's a good point too. I guess my framework had dismissed earlier examples of riots (from decades ago) as being premature and not yet warranted, presumably because *surely* they hadn't tried all peaceful alternatives yet. Obviously, that's wrong, but I'd imagine that many people commit the same fallacy I did (that unless all peaceful alternatives are explored *strictly during the era in which I am alive or paying attention to politics*, violence can't be justified). That's clearly wrong.
On May 29 2020 21:42 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. imo these posts by you and farv and zero are the first sign of "enough is enough" I've observed here in the thread with regard to incremental action against police violence / racism not working and more drastic changes being needed. This impression mostly stems form the blowback GH is receiving when he's talking / talked about the issue - not specificially from the users mentioned but rather generally in the thread.
My political views have definitely, definitely become more progressive and less moderate (especially surrounding social issues) since I started posting on TL a decade ago. A lot of that comes from diving harder into politics, seeing that more passive action hasn't been effective, and from spending more time with families who are directly affected by these issues. If options A, B, and C have been fully explored and found to change nothing, then it seems like we should figure out what option D is.
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On May 29 2020 22:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. I'm not sure if that is a yes or a no to the first question? I'm not exactly sure I understand the entirety of the first question (I don't mean to be dodgy or pedantic, but the syntax and grammar have me confused). Your question is "Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here?" If your question is "Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this [lack of serious consequences to injustice and realizing that responses to this apathy may need to escalate to be taken seriously] is what I've been saying for years", then I'd say yes... you've definitely been saying it for a long time. What GH is fishing for is that because people understand the riots happening over this police murder we should also be on board with his violent revolution to change the political system..
More that the conditions people are recognizing as instigating the current uprising and the solutions Democrats have been offering for decades to them are patently absurd. The hope was this realization came with recognition it wasn't from not being exposed to this information countless times by myself/others and isn't limited to the systemic violence perpetrated by police.
EDIT: The wealth gap between Black and white people would be another important one for example.
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On May 29 2020 22:04 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:42 Artisreal wrote:On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. imo these posts by you and farv and zero are the first sign of "enough is enough" I've observed here in the thread with regard to incremental action against police violence / racism not working and more drastic changes being needed. This impression mostly stems form the blowback GH is receiving when he's talking / talked about the issue - not specificially from the users mentioned but rather generally in the thread. I think a lot of us has been saying "enough is enough" for quite some time. It's just that the methods vary wildly between a few of us. I'm more of "let's not ruin the community we live in but yes, go get that justice" while some are more of the "burn everything to the ground because democracy has failed us too many times". I'm not in it for the sake of violence alone. Is a revolution necessary? Perhaps. Does it need to be violent to get results? No. Will it possibly come to that? Perhaps. Are there other avenues that can be taken to get said results without violence, inciting violence, or resorting to leftist-anarchism? Undoubtedly. Method is the issue I have with some people.
I'd imagine that most people would prefer a peaceful change without violence, although keep in mind that the violence is already happening against the victims in the first place, and there are many different subcategories of violent behavior (some types of self-defense, vandalism, fire, physical injury, killing, etc.)
Putting aside the fact that black people can't walk around with guns anyway, could you imagine if responsible *black* gun owners with legally-acquired firearms decided to actually practice their 2nd amendment right and justifiably shoot the cops who were killing an unarmed, innocent member of their community?
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On May 29 2020 22:04 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:42 Artisreal wrote:On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. imo these posts by you and farv and zero are the first sign of "enough is enough" I've observed here in the thread with regard to incremental action against police violence / racism not working and more drastic changes being needed. This impression mostly stems form the blowback GH is receiving when he's talking / talked about the issue - not specificially from the users mentioned but rather generally in the thread. I think a lot of us has been saying "enough is enough" for quite some time. It's just that the methods vary wildly between a few of us. I'm more of "let's not ruin the community we live in but yes, go get that justice" while some are more of the "burn everything to the ground because democracy has failed us too many times". I'm not in it for the sake of violence alone. Is a revolution necessary? Perhaps. Does it need to be violent to get results? No. Will it possibly come to that? Perhaps. Are there other avenues that can be taken to get said results without violence, inciting violence, or resorting to leftist-anarchism? Undoubtedly. Method is the issue I have with some people.
That is a fair point. I would be interested in what peaceful methods have not yet been proven futile though.
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On May 29 2020 22:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 22:04 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 29 2020 21:42 Artisreal wrote:On May 29 2020 21:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 21:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Is it fair to ask whether it has become clear that Democrats reconciling this is what I've been saying for years was necessary to the distress of many here? That it isn't just the systemic unaccountable violence of the police (this time highlighted in another Democrat run state/city) this critique applies to? That your point about trying everything else countless times already applies to several of the issues I and others raise about US politics? I think we've certainly seen more and more Democrats (and even the general American public) become exasperated and disillusioned at the endless repetition of these injustices, when punishments never happen. Certainly, my personal take on these issues have gone from "let's try calm and peaceful protesting for the millionth time" to "well it's been a billion times now, so fuck it, I'm up for anything that could actually work, at this point", when the calm and peaceful protests simply aren't working. As far as generalizing this to other issues goes, it would likely depend on which issues you're referring to, but I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to improve X in new, different ways, if the current system is failing. imo these posts by you and farv and zero are the first sign of "enough is enough" I've observed here in the thread with regard to incremental action against police violence / racism not working and more drastic changes being needed. This impression mostly stems form the blowback GH is receiving when he's talking / talked about the issue - not specificially from the users mentioned but rather generally in the thread. I think a lot of us has been saying "enough is enough" for quite some time. It's just that the methods vary wildly between a few of us. I'm more of "let's not ruin the community we live in but yes, go get that justice" while some are more of the "burn everything to the ground because democracy has failed us too many times". I'm not in it for the sake of violence alone. Is a revolution necessary? Perhaps. Does it need to be violent to get results? No. Will it possibly come to that? Perhaps. Are there other avenues that can be taken to get said results without violence, inciting violence, or resorting to leftist-anarchism? Undoubtedly. Method is the issue I have with some people. I'd imagine that most people would prefer a peaceful change without violence, although keep in mind that the violence is already happening against the victims in the first place, and there are many different subcategories of violent behavior (some types of self-defense, vandalism, fire, physical injury, killing, etc.) Putting aside the fact that black people can't walk around with guns anyway, could you imagine if responsible *black* gun owners with legally-acquired firearms decided to actually practice their 2nd amendment right and justifiably shoot the cops who were killing an unarmed, innocent member of their community?
I can imagine. It happened when a few escorted a congresswoman to work because she didn't feel safe that the security was doing an adequate job of protecting her.
And vigilantism isn't going to do anything but get more innocent people shot and killed. If they surrounded the cop, disarmed him, and hand cuffed then left him to be picked up, then possibly? But there are a lot of variables to account for and there isn't a satisfactory answer I don't think.
The violence isn't one-sided for sure. But at the end of the day, if the national guard is called in and the police come out in full riot gear, there isn't anything going to stop a steamrolling of protesters. So you have to find a different way.
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On May 29 2020 22:25 Artisreal wrote:
That is a fair point. I would be interested in what peaceful methods have not yet been proven futile though.
They could try doing what they did yesterday without burning the station: block exit/entry into the station(s). They could march on the 4 officers who were arrested and stand outside their homes, demanding they surrender (most likely to be met with soft violence). They could shut the city down. Not allowing essential services to be rendered (not grocery stores and the like but city services).
The thing with today's world is to get creative in disrupting the daily lives of those who perceive to be untouchable.
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Canada5565 Posts
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case.
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On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case.
Wasn't his response to threaten to shoot people? I mean, that's certainly a strong response, but not one of a leader.
"Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses."
You mean the cop who killed an innocent man? I don't think Trump spoke out against him or law enforcement or racism, in general.
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On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case.
People aren't born bad. We are all fundamentally good but there are people who society either neglects or directly harms. This harm distorts people and when rage from that distortion reaches a certain peak, riots occur. You should see a riot and feel sorry for the rioters, seeing what their situation has come to. A riot is no one's first choice or first response. A lot came before this. You should be ashamed of what you're saying here. Truly disgusting.
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Canada5565 Posts
Catching up on news. 170 buildings damaged or looted. Incredible what media narrative can create.On May 29 2020 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case. Wasn't his response to threaten to shoot people? I mean, that's certainly a strong response, but not one of a leader. "Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses." You mean the cop who killed an innocent man? I don't think Trump spoke out against him or law enforcement or racism, in general. For what it's worth I sincerely hope there will be no violence and the rioting and looting stops.
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On May 29 2020 22:51 Xxio wrote:Catching up on news. 170 buildings damaged or looted. Incredible what media narrative can create. Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case. Wasn't his response to threaten to shoot people? I mean, that's certainly a strong response, but not one of a leader. "Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses." You mean the cop who killed an innocent man? I don't think Trump spoke out against him or law enforcement or racism, in general. For what it's worth I sincerely hope there will be no violence and the rioting and looting stops.
On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not.
Pick one, you cant have both
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On May 29 2020 22:51 Xxio wrote:Catching up on news. 170 buildings damaged or looted. Incredible what media narrative can create. Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case. Wasn't his response to threaten to shoot people? I mean, that's certainly a strong response, but not one of a leader. "Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses." You mean the cop who killed an innocent man? I don't think Trump spoke out against him or law enforcement or racism, in general. For what it's worth I sincerely hope there will be no violence and the rioting and looting stops.
If you want it to stop, stop killing innocent minorities under the guise of police duty.
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On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case.
That's basically another monday for black people.
Your posting is consistently ignorant.
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On May 29 2020 21:41 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 20:58 farvacola wrote:
The widespread protests have me hopeful, but getting to where we need to go will not be pretty. The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that it's not a hard problem to fix; the issue with fixing the problem is that the justice system doesn't want to convict police officers, in general. The public has tried protesting, to no avail. Take every police officer who commits manslaughter *and actually convict them of manslaughter*. Send them to jail, because they are criminals who broke the law. Don't just put them on temporary leave and/or fire them (potentially with benefits). Throw the damn book at them if it's as blatantly black-and-white (no pun intended) as George Floyd's case. We need our legal system to be fair, and we can start by making an example out of the 4 police officers here. But the people in charge who need to fix the problem, historically, have not cared about administering any real consequences. Over the years, I'm sure that the first few times I had ever heard that the public was rioting and looting as a response to a civil injustice, I was indignant and hypercritical of such a violent and destructive reaction. But at this point, what other options are there? What alternatives are left to recommend? What hasn't been tried yet? The entire spectrum has already been exhausted, countless times over. We KNOW peaceful marches don't work. We KNOW silent protests don't work. We KNOW civil disobedience doesn't work. We KNOW that simply sitting or kneeling doesn't work. We KNOW that being armed doesn't work. We KNOW that being unarmed doesn't work. We KNOW that being submissive doesn't work. We KNOW that following the law doesn't work. How is it even remotely surprising that escalation eventually occurs, out of desperation? Who knows if that'll work either, when so many people dismiss these tragedies as non-issues, regardless of the response, but at this point, I can't think of any other option that hasn't already been proven ineffective anyway. Riots aren't a 2020 invention. Are you sure that whatever framework you're using to say those things don't work doesn't also conclude that rioting doesn't work either?
In modern US history the massive riots in 1964,1965,1967,1968,1992 all lead to change in favor of the rioting group it's the smaller less violent race riots that didn't lead to reforms
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On May 29 2020 22:51 Xxio wrote:Catching up on news. 170 buildings damaged or looted. Incredible what media narrative can create. Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 29 2020 22:42 Xxio wrote:
Glad to see a strong response from Trump. It's probably hot air, but hopefully not. Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses. Time to stop paying taxes and start 3D printing guns if that's the case. Wasn't his response to threaten to shoot people? I mean, that's certainly a strong response, but not one of a leader. "Bad days when the worst of society is allowed to freely act on their impulses." You mean the cop who killed an innocent man? I don't think Trump spoke out against him or law enforcement or racism, in general. For what it's worth I sincerely hope there will be no violence and the rioting and looting stops.
what strong response from trump are you alluding to if not the promise to shoot people? do you or do you not condone violence? can you explain what strong response from trump means without violence?
ill give enough benefit of doubt until understanding, but for now this reads as only condoning violence when trump says so, and that’s a generous interpretation i think.
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Dear US of A, are you alright? Do you need help? Sincerely, a concerned EU citizen.
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EPT
